802.11g and ARRL VHF Contest ?

[ab...@aol.com]

Anyone know if it's permissable per the FCC to work other hams on the lower 802.11g channels (below 2.450 MHZ) via WRT54G routers within the 13 cm amateur band?

[Chris KB3CS]

Yes, I believe it is permissible.  And I have seen mention of using Channels "0" and "-1" for Part 97 operation.  You're within the amateur frequency allocation and the modulation methods are not prohibited.

[ab...@aol.com]

ARRL VHF Contest awards 4 points for 13 CM contacts.

Have an old Dell laptop with nothing on it running Vista and will set up a station with the WRT54GL using my callsign as the ID. There's a tall building in Arlington and I think I can use the rooftop deck a couple hours to scan around. Bought a couple MFJ 2.4 GHz yagis, and have old camera tripods and a few feet of LMR 240 with N connectors and adapters. Also a gel cell 12 v DC power supply.

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[Charles Fullerton]

Ok.. I'm interested.  What would a valid contact be using this?

[ab...@aol.com]

RE- MESH DX

You just connect to the router (or wireless card if you are using a laptop) I guess. You can e-mail contests at arrl dot org to see what their take on it is..

For this month's ARRL VHF contest you can run a portable station with 10 watts or less.

There are different rules for Field Day.

But you don't want to run your home laptop with no security so anyone can connect. Must be a bunch of laptops with XP installed gathering dust somewhere which are perfectly OK for chasing MESH DX.

[Chris KB3CS]

I would think something more active than "just connect" is required. a wifi chipset can "just connect" to an open network on its own. maybe a UDP packet containing some unique information (which is recorded at the other end with wireshark or something?) ?  or perhaps use the "-p" parameter of 'ping' and specify a particular payload (the padding can be examined in detail with wireshark) ? or use netcat at both ends and deliver a one line message?

On Tuesday, June 3, 2014 7:52:52 AM UTC-4, AB4YP,Jim wrote:

RE- MESH DX

You just connect to the router (or wireless card if you are using a laptop) I guess. You can e-mail contests at arrl dot org to see what their take on it is..

For this month's ARRL VHF contest you can run a portable station with 10 watts or less.

There are different rules for Field Day.

But you don't want to run your home laptop with no security so anyone can connect. Must be a bunch of laptops with XP installed gathering dust somewhere which are perfectly OK for chasing MESH DX.

[...]

 

[Derek LaHousse]

Or autodiscover an XMPP server through service discovery
(Avahi/Bonjour) and actually talk with a real person, instead of
simply recording the equivalent of a beacon.

[Karl Long]

On Sunday, June 1, 2014 2:20:34 PM UTC-4, AB4YP,Jim wrote:

Anyone know if it's permissable per the FCC to work other hams on the lower 802.11g channels (below 2.450 MHZ) via WRT54G routers within the 13 cm amateur band?

Jim,

 

You asked if the FCC permits . . ., but the subject of your posts is  "802.11g and ARRL VHF Contest ? "

 

Yes, it is OK with the FCC (if you follow the rules, etc.).  The VHF Contest is a different question.

 

The short answer is "maybe".

 

The long answer requires a look at the ARRL Contest rules.  If you can do it within the contest rules, you can do it.

 

I will quote some of the contest rules.  From the General Rules, the precedence of rules:

      1.1.Rules for individual contests or events, including Field Day, take precedence over all General Rules.

      1.2.General Rules for HF and VHF contests take precedence over General Rules for all contests.

 

General Rules (excerpt):

 

     3.2.All callsigns and exchange information must be sent, received, acknowledged and logged correctly by each station for a complete QSO.

 

You need to be able to send, receive, acknowledge and log the required exhange. This could be done with a chat program.

 

      3.9. Contacts made through repeaters, digipeaters, or gateways are not permitted.

      3.9.1. This applies to all forms of active relays or repeaters.

      3.9.2. Satellite contacts, where allowed, are not subject to this rule.

 

You cannot use the mesh to connect to a remote node (relay).

 

      3.10. The use of non-Amateur Radio means of communication (for example, Internet or telephone) to solicit a contact (or contacts) during the contest period is not permitted.

 

This appears to prohibit plan a contact in advance is not allowed. Telling someone before the contest that you plan to be working a particular mode and band is probably OK.  The intent is that contacts be random, not scheduled.

 

Above 50 MHz Contest Rules:

 

      1.7. Retransmitting either or both stations, or use of repeater frequencies, is not permitted.

 

Same as General Rule 3.9.

 

      1.10. While no minimum distance is specified for contacts, equipment should be capable of communications at a range of at least 1 km.

 

If you are not using directional antennas, or higher power, your node is probably NOT capable of communication at this range.  This does not say that the contact has to be 1 km, but that your equipment is capable.

 

ARRL June VHF QSO Party:

 

     4. Exchange: Grid-square locator

 

You have to exchange call signs and (two letter, two number) grid square (e.g., FM18 in most of southern Maryland).

 

I suppose it could be done.

 

73 de KG1L

 

[ab...@aol.com]

I will just scan around from the top of a tall building, 23 stories, with a clear view of DC, and beyond, to the North.

If I made a CW contact with another ham using 100 milliwatts on 10 Meters I could just write down his callsign in a contest log, right?




"Maude I can't believe what George down at the Lodge just told me. That little boy down the street, Arthur Collins, has established daily contact with Admiral Byrd in Greenland with a newfangled 'shortwave' radio he invented"

-----Original Message-----
From: Karl Long <karl_...@hotmail.com>
To: boar-net <boar...@googlegroups.com>

[Chris KB3CS]

okay, so what Jim is suggesting is apparently no good for the ARRL VHF contest ... but would be fine if there were a new contest which permits a wifi mode so long as there is an exchange which fulfills the General Rules.  yes?

On Tuesday, June 3, 2014 3:08:27 PM UTC-4, Karl Long wrote:

On Sunday, June 1, 2014 2:20:34 PM UTC-4, AB4YP,Jim wrote:

Anyone know if it's permissable per the FCC to work other hams on the lower 802.11g channels (below 2.450 MHZ) via WRT54G routers within the 13 cm amateur band?

Jim,

 

You asked if the FCC permits . . ., but the subject of your posts is  "802.11g and ARRL VHF Contest ? "

 

Yes, it is OK with the FCC (if you follow the rules, etc.).  The VHF Contest is a different question.

 

The short answer is "maybe".

 

[...] 

You need to be able to send, receive, acknowledge and log the required exhange. This could be done with a chat program. 

      3.9. Contacts made through repeaters, digipeaters, or gateways are not permitted.

      3.9.1. This applies to all forms of active relays or repeaters.

      3.9.2. Satellite contacts, where allowed, are not subject to this rule.

 

You cannot use the mesh to connect to a remote node (relay).

 

[...] 

[Charles Fullerton]

I checked with ARRL about Field day.   They said as long as it's a direct link and not a hop (repeated through a hub) then the connection is valid... but they discouraged automatic information gathering...  So all you need is a standard way to make the two ends communicate manually through the automatically configured link...

I like the idea of netcat... one port for listening another for transmitting....  there just needs to be a standard set for communications...  

--

[ab...@aol.com]

David Sumner, K1ZZ
Executive Director,
ARRL
225 Main Street
Newington, CT  06111

RE - June ARRL VHF Contest

Dear Dave:

I and several other amateurs are considering operating in the June ARRL VHF Contest using unmodified Linksys WRT54GL 802.11g home WiFi routers and using the MFJ 2.4 GHz yagis advertised in QST on the 13 cm amateur band below 2.450 GHz.

Does ARRL have any problem with amateurs connecting to other amateurs, router-to-router,  on the 13 cm amateur band via WiFi as participants in the June 2014 VHF Contest?

73,

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris KB3CS <chris....@gmail.com>
To: boar-net <boar...@googlegroups.com>

[Karl Long]

Chris,

 

I do not believe that the mesh routers cannot be used for the contests, including the VHF. But using them would not be trivial.  It might be hard to work out (and test) how to do it before this years VHF Contest with only about 10 days.

 

Given Charlie's (KB3VAN) response from ARRL about Field Day, there is no reason why the VHE Contest would be any different. No relays (hops). While they discourage automatic information gathering, that might be the only way to be sure that you are not connecting to remote (relayed) nodes. Perhaps, when you make a contact you check the link status to see make sure it is not remote. This would be like checking for dups.

 

The big challenge is working out how to make the actual contact. The contact will probably need to be computer to computer, not node to node.  To allow random contacts you probably need at least a way to do something at your computer that causes something to happen at another computer, both connected to mesh nodes.  Some examples, possibly in order of difficulty:

 

       Your computer                          Target Computer

Type "something"                             "something" shows up on screen    

Tap (or type) - convert to MCW        MCW sounds come out of the speakers

Say "something"                               Your voices (from speaker) says "something"

Video  camera                                   Video frio your camera on screen

 

Whether you use this for Field Day, or the VHF Contest, you still have to be able to make the exhange.  For Field Day the exhange is call sign and ARRL Section. For VHF Contest the exhange is call sign and (4 character) grid square.

 

Once a system is devised to facilitate "random" contacts, the details of the system will need to be distributed to everyone else who wants to be able to participate.

 

I am very much interested in working out how to do this.  It actually is part of a much more grandiose dream of mine:

 

Random full-duplex OFDM EME.

[Derek LaHousse]

Given that repeater use isn't allowed, I believe the discussion of
"mesh" is detrimental to this conversation. What you want is to make
802.11 Ad-Hoc connections on 13 cm. Once you've associated, just send
a packet with that data in it to the MAC broadcast address. So you
need a program that has a big red button, so it's not an automatic
beacon.

Using the router seems to me to be an extension of using a TNC, if all
you're doing is logging into the router to manage your link. If it's
automatically meshing, it's a repeater. If you're clicking on a
"seen" AP/network, it's your radio. Just my 2 cents.


Isn't the extremely long path length of EME detrimental to OFDM? What
kind of sub-carrier spacing are you considering?

[Chris KB3CS]

ordinarily: you specify a port for listening. the system picks a random (non-privileged) port for sending to the port you specify.

(in other words, it generally does not matter from which port number a message originates. the destination port is important)

On Wednesday, June 4, 2014 2:42:05 PM UTC-4, KB3ZVN,Charlie wrote:

I checked with ARRL about Field day.   They said as long as it's a direct link and not a hop (repeated through a hub) then the connection is valid... but they discouraged automatic information gathering...  So all you need is a standard way to make the two ends communicate manually through the automatically configured link...

I like the idea of netcat... one port for listening another for transmitting....  there just needs to be a standard set for communications...  

[...]

 

[ab...@aol.com]

How about? For now, meaning upcoming June ARRL VHF Contest and Field Day:

I scan for routers (or wireless LAN cards, WiFi transceivers, etc.) that are using ham call signs and essential June VHF Contest / Field Day info as the ID (e.g, W1AW2ACT)

I attempt to connect to the W1AW2ACT router (wireless LAN card, WiFi transceiver, etc).

If I can connect to the W1AW2ACT router  wireless LAN card, WiFi transceiver, etc. I disconnect after (say) 10 seconds and allow W1AW2ACT router to connect to my router -- AB4YP1AVA

So have I established a valid contact and exchanged essential information with another amateur station on the 2.4 GHz amateur band?

[Derek LaHousse]

It's just my opinion, but I would say no, you have not done anything
outside of an automatic receipt of a beacon. Maybe I don't understand,
but is it okay for the contest if all you receive is a beacon signal?
Also, what would be the difference between you connecting to W1AW/2ACT
and it connecting to you?

--
73,
Derek KV4SH

[ab...@aol.com]

So, if I send CQ TST DE AB4YP repeatedly with a memory keyer by pressing a button on the front of a HF transceiver and then listen for a response is that a beacon?

[dlah...@mtu.edu]

Yes. When you ACK the response, you aren't a beacon.

On June 6, 2014 8:51:08 AM EDT, ab4yp via BOAR-Net <boar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>So, if I send CQ TST DE AB4YP repeatedly with a memory keyer by
>pressing a button on the front of a HF transceiver and then listen for
>a response is that a beacon?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Derek LaHousse <dlah...@mtu.edu>
>To: boar-net <boar...@googlegroups.com>
>Sent: Fri, Jun 6, 2014 8:40 am
>Subject: Re: [BOAR-Net] Re: 802.11g and ARRL VHF Contest ?
>
>
>It's just my opinion, but I would say no, you have not done anything
>outside of an automatic receipt of a beacon. Maybe I don't understand,
>but is it okay for the contest if all you receive is a beacon signal?
>Also, what would be the difference between you connecting to W1AW/2ACT
>and it connecting to you?

--

Sent from my watch with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

[ab...@aol.com]

So if I connect and then disconnect from my router and some other ham's router (wireless LAN card, or transceiver) and the other ham connects and disconnects from my router we are sending then receiving the basic information needed for contest exchange?

-----Original Message-----
From: dlahouss <dlah...@mtu.edu>
To: boar-net <boar...@googlegroups.com>; ab4yp via BOAR-Net <boar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jun 6, 2014 9:00 am
Subject: Re: [BOAR-Net] Re: 802.11g and ARRL VHF Contest ?

Yes. When you ACK the response, you aren't a beacon.

On June 6, 2014 8:51:08 AM EDT, ab4yp via BOAR-Net <boar...@googlegroups.com> 
wrote:
>So, if I send CQ TST DE AB4YP repeatedly with a memory keyer by
>pressing a button on the front of a HF transceiver and then listen for
>a response is that a beacon?
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Derek LaHousse <dlah...@mtu.edu>
>To: boar-net <boar...@googlegroups.com

>
>Sent: Fri, Jun 6, 2014 8:40 am
>Subject: Re: [BOAR-Net] Re: 802.11g and ARRL VHF Contest ?
>
>
>It's just my opinion, but I would say no, you have not done anything
>outside of an automatic receipt of a beacon.  Maybe I don't understand,
>but is it okay for the contest if all you receive is a beacon signal?
>Also, what would be the difference between you connecting to W1AW/2ACT
>and it connecting to you?

-- 
Sent from my watch with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

-- 
 
The next generation of communications technology in the Amateur Radio service!

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[Derek LaHousse]

I would say that that is not enough. If you don't like my opinion,
shop around until you find one that you do like. The problem is that
the routers will associate in a purely automatic fashion, and I
believe you should have some manual process to be able to claim
contest exchange.

I liken what you've suggested to be like an automatic keyer that
parses morse code and forms a response from a template. Yes, the
"necessary information" has been exchanged, but if it's entirely
computerized would you claim it's a valid contact?

What is the difference between you connecting to someone else's
router, and them connecting to yours? The association process in
ad-hoc mode is a two-way street. If you're using managed mode, I'd
claim that you're a repeater, and disqualified because of that.


Seperately, could you explain why you want to use 802.11 in a contest?
Not only are you going to severely reduce the number of people you
can contact, you're going to be taking large swaths of spectrum to do
it and raising the noise floor for everyone. You will need
significantly more power to make a connection than using SSB or FM. I
understand you don't have to explain yourself to me, but I'm
interested in your goals.

On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 9:59 AM, ab4yp via BOAR-Net

[ab...@aol.com]

If hams are connecting and disconnecting manually how is that automatic?

If one puts 100 milliwattts into a 2.4 GHz yagi with 12 db gain that's a grand total of 1.6 watts effective radiated power out of the antenna.

What about RTTY contests?

What's wrong with using a memory keyer to send perfect Morse Code?

Don't all contests raise the noise floor?

[Derek LaHousse]

So, you've got me thinking critically, good questions.

If you're running your access point in Ad-Hoc mode, you are connecting
automatically. What process do you use to connect/disconnect
manually? My understanding is that you put in an SSID and a channel,
and auto-connect to whatever happens to be there. This, I believe, is
simply a beacon.

With said yagi and power, yes, you can make a decent connection to
many places you can see. But for the purpose of a contest, how many
maidenhead(s) is that?

What *about* RTTY? Is 802.11 a form of RTTY? Is RTTY part of the VHF contest?

Nothing's wrong with using a memory keyer. Heck, I like technology,
I'd love to use an encoder/decoder to automatically turn morse into
letters, and then my typing into morse. But if all you do is send
morse, you're a beacon, and if your machine is doing it automatically
with no input, you're probably breaking some rule.

Contests do raise the noise floor, for anyone not in the contest. But
if the contest is expected to be done with voice, and you're going to
stomp over 20 MHz at a time with an odd digital signal, you're more
QRM than the next guy calling CQ.


So, what procedure would *I*, in the opinion that is mine, think
appropriate for a "contact" using a digital device? Well, I would
want the device to be the endpoint/transit for a sole operator in
about the same location (200 feet or so from the antenna). I would
want some form of information to be sent only when the operator hit
"the big red button" (need not be red). I would want the operator on
the other end to have to hit his/her button to confirm receipt/send
own information, and I would want the first guy/gal to complete the
handshake with a final press of a button.

I would call a computer wired to a WRT54G a station. I would say that
the ad-hoc connection is automatic and not an exchange. Once the link
is established, some software on the computer/router station should
send out an ethernet broadcast packet with the contest info. The
receiver sees it and responds in kind, possibly with a ethernet
unicast. The first station unicasts a completion. That is a contact.

I know nothing about ALE (Automatic Link Establishment), but from a
quick read of its wiki page, it might be reasonable to compare how it
is used in contests. Can an ALE call be used for contest credit if
the operator does nothing? I compare ALE to the ad-hoc connection,
and the subsequent call to the digital exchange.

DE KV4SH

[ab...@aol.com]

You are connecting your amateur 802.11g router (wireless LAN card, transceiver)  manually to a router (wireless LAN card, transceiver) that is ID'd as an amateur contest station by an appropriate ID, say W1AW2ACT. Why would you want to connect to some other router, like OURFAMILYWIFI that's sharing the spectrum?

There is no "beacon" involved. It's not "automatic" Other amateur 2.4 GHz 802.11g station has to establish contact with your router, that is, acknowledge you contacted him or her.

You can toggle back and forth 3 or 4 times if that makes you happy

-----Original Message-----
From: Derek LaHousse <dlah...@mtu.edu>
To: BOAR...@googlegroups.com <boar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jun 6, 2014 1:42 pm
Subject: Re: [BOAR-Net] Re: 802.11g and ARRL VHF Contest ?

> wrote:
> If hams are connecting and disconnecting manually how is that automatic?
>
> If one puts 100 milliwattts into a 2.4 GHz yagi with 12 db gain that's a
> grand total of 1.6 watts effective radiated power out of the antenna.
>
> What about RTTY contests?
>
> What's wrong with using a memory keyer to send perfect Morse Code?
>
> Don't all contests raise the noise floor?
>
>
>
>

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[Keith]

Just thought I update you periodically on our progress.

We made several links with Frederick from Leesburg, Virginia today.
39.166216, -77.588928

We did a 28 mile link between the Leesburg Tennis and WN3R, 39.125207,
-77.567111

The signal strength ranged from 73 to 85.

Testing to the Leesburg hospital is next.

http://www.MAIPN.com

It is too early to draw any definite conclusions but I am willing to say
that a 28 mile link is pushing the limits for
a backbone link unless it is between to perfect high points. I'd think
that about 12 miles is a good distance under average conditions.
It seems you want a signal around 78 dbi or better for an on/off ramp
and a signal in the 60-70 dbi range for the backbone.

Keith