Replacement S38B36 wanted

[Will Zaraska]

After many years of enjoyable track time, the motor in my 1991 has probably spun a bearing. I am in process of pulling it from my chassis. Local experienced vintage motor rebuilder near Toronto is suggesting I budget CAD $10,000. Am wanting to see if anybody has a motor or chassis with motor that they'd be willing to part with for a lesser sum. I am happy to make arrangements to pick up anywhere in Canada or USA. 

Cheers,

Wikk

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WWW.WILLZ.CA
3029 Bloor Street West
Toronto ON M8X 1C5
office: 416.244.6686 (Canada)
cellular: 716.907.4794 (USA)

[chrich...@yahoo.com]

Hi Will,

 

I noticed this a few weeks ago:

 

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1991-bmw-e34-m5-drivetrain-s38b36/

 

Just what you’re looking for but you’re just about a month late to this party. You might be able to put your 3.6 specific parts onto a 3.5 or maybe a 3.8 motor. As you know, the B35 is not from an E34, and the B38 has totally different engine electronics. Why not just drop the pan, inspect, and do only the bearings? I’m not sure, but you probably have to pull the motor to do the mains, but the rod bearings could be replaced in situ.

 

Even at 200-300 thousand miles, you could probably go a while longer with the pistons unless oil consumption or compression is intolerable. Don’t quote me, but I recall the spec for oil consumption on the B35 (actually an M88/3) was around a quart every -400-500 miles. I rebuilt mine near that level because the smoke on deceleration was annoying and concerning to others at the track. The B36 and 38 have a lot better oil control anyway.

 

Regards, Chris Richards

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[Will Zaraska]

I am not so conversant with understanding what needs repairing in a lower end of a motor. Several times I have rebuilt my old s14 motor's top end. It's not that difficult for me to remove the s38 and bring it on a pallet to my rebuilder. We can probably flip it over, pull off the oil pan and see what the problem might be. I had found some 1 mm shavings of metal in the oil filter. 

Perhaps an S62 transplant might yield more fun for the dollar. I'm kind of getting tired of being the slow old guy at the track. 

Cheers,

Will

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office: 416.244.6686 (Canada)
cellular: 716.907.4794 (USA)

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[Gary Derian]

If you're willing to swap engines and want to go fast, there are better choices than old BMW engines.  The S38 is an awesome engine, so awesome it belongs in a glass case in your living room.  That is higher status than under your hood.

Gary [LS Swap] Derian

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[Jeff Gomon]

Gary, you aren’t wrong and your LS runs pretty darn well.  I would not swap one into an M5 chassis though, but that’s the purist in me.  You saved a non M5 so that’s fine.  

Hope you are well my friend.  So far so good with my cluster…working just fine!!!

D. Jeff Gomon

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On Jun 30, 2022, at 7:53 AM, Gary Derian <gade...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Jeff Gomon]

Will,

See if you can reach out to Ben Thongsai in Chicago.  He is a whiz with S14/S38 engines and has a well respected shop.  I think he might have one on an engine stand or at least give you a quote or help with a plan forward.  He is also big into racing 2002’s and builds engines for Sam Smith.  Here is his info if you are interested.

B & D Automotive, 9830 Derby Lane, Westchester IL 60154.

Work: (708) 450-0300‬

Cell: (708) 404-9285‬

E-mail:  b...@bimmers.com

D. Jeff Gomon

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On Jun 30, 2022, at 8:44 AM, Jeff Gomon <jeff...@gmail.com> wrote:

Gary, you aren’t wrong and your LS runs pretty darn well.  I would not swap one into an M5 chassis though, but that’s the purist in me.  You saved a non M5 so that’s fine.  

[Gary Derian]

Agreed. I wouldn't hack up a pristine M5.  The car doesn't have to be hacked to swap engines.  Will's track car is far from pristine.  I haven't seen it in years, but hey, it's a track car.  Any normal person would buy a Corvette to track.  LOL.

Gary Derian

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[Jeff Gomon]

To your point Gary, and to Wills as well, these M5’s are not one of the “fast” options for track use like they were in the 90’s.  As soon as the V8 s and turbo 6 BMWs came out, I became a rolling chicane, especially in the Instructor Run Group.  I retired the M5 from track use many years ago and bought a nice Imola 2005 330ci ZHP that now has camber plates, anti-sway bars, track brake pads, sticky tires and lightweight wheels.  A momentum car but it sure is nimble. But, I’m still getting run over out there, especially at the faster tracks like COTA.  I fixed that issue in Sept of 2020.  I ordered a 2021 Alpine White, Slick-top, 6-spd manual M2 Competition.  Let’s just say I’m no longer the “fastest guy in the slow group” as this thing flat out screams.  I’m still not caught up to it’s capabilities.  

The M5 is truly a fun car to now take out on cruises, cars and coffee, day or weekend trips but no daily use anymore.  It’s still 100% original, including paint and engine with transmission synchro replacement being the only surgery done on major components.  At 105k miles now it sits under a cover more than I like, but man does it look great and is still one of my favorite BMW designs.  

Sorry for rambling on…..

D. Jeff Gomon

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On Jun 30, 2022, at 8:55 AM, Gary Derian <gade...@gmail.com> wrote:



[Gary Derian]

I love the E34 and its lack of un-tinkerable data buses.  To the point where I am building an integrated roll cage like a Ruf Turbo for my swap car.  I'd love to fit C5,6,7 suspension and transaxle to it, but that would be reductio ad absurdum.

Gary Derian

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[Michael Andre]

E34 is also about the size and weight of current 3 series.

Plenty of ad absurdum going on, maybe COVID induced. A friend is finishing a V8 swap to a 914. Absurd indeed. I always hated my 914.

Michael Andre
Pardon brief note by cellphone

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From: bmw-e...@googlegroups.com <bmw-e...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Gary Derian <gade...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2022 9:25:36 AM
To: Jeff Gomon <jeff...@gmail.com>
Cc: Will Zaraska <willz...@yahoo.com>; chrichardsm6 via BMW E34 ///M5 <bmw-e...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [M5] Replacement S38B36 wanted

 

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[Gary Derian]

The latest 3er is creeping past the E34 in length and has been wider for several generations already.  My wife has a Honda Accord which is way larger than an E34.  The E34 is Honda Civic size.  It used to be a large heavy car.

Gary Derian

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[Mark D'Sylva]

Will,

you won't find any S38B36 that you can just drop in for $10K  CAD.   That's how much a used one goes for, and then you need to at least replace the bearings and a few other things... it's best to just fix your own engine.

Or, consider swapping in an S54, S62 or N54/N55  for more excitement.     If I was in your situation, I'd go for an S55.   They cost very little, are easy to find and you can easily have 350 WHP

Mark

[Gary Derian]

Not to mention the 100 lb weight savings (similar to an atmo LS).

Gary Derian

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[Jeff Gomon]

Mark, 

I have the S55 in my M2C and they say it has 405-410 HP but those who have Dyno’d before mods report it is more like 420 or more.  As you know, it’s the same engine in the M3/M4 which has a factory tune with over 450hp and the M4 GTS has 488HP….all factory tunes on the same engine.  I couldn’t imagine how the 3,800lb e34 M5 would move with that kind of HP but I know it moves my 3,541lb M2 pretty darn well, and with about no lag or drop off in power to almost redline.

So, even with a stock tuned S55 the increases would be impressive, but where to mount all those inter coolers and oil coolers….I mean I’m sure it can be done….

D. Jeff Gomon

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On Jun 30, 2022, at 12:07 PM, Gary Derian <gade...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Will Zaraska]

I got a buddy putting in a 6.0L Chevy crate motor into his Cayman. Cheaper, faster and more reliable. It's the up side down inside out tranny that screws stuff up. Will be an interesting build by a guy who has built his own 635CSi turbo and also gone nuts on a 930 turbo build. He also rebuilt his 8.2L 2500 Suburban to tow a double trailer. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bmw-e34-m5/PH0PR05MB7752E2F77E55EBEDEBE339A3FDBA9%40PH0PR05MB7752.namprd05.prod.outlook.com.

[Michael Andre]

I confess to losing track of the 3er about E92 era. Not much interest. 

My COVID absurdum was to sell my tracky E30 (after 15 yrs of working on it) then regret it. Bought the last NA BMW, 128 M sport 6sp. Fun car, decent auto crosser but not fast. A little adjustability in the front end made it seem lighter. 

The best thing is my wife recently gave me a hall pass to take her Cayman S for a 1 week road trip to Laguna Seca and Sonoma Raceway. Pretty good girl! Fast car, easy to drive but I completely destroyed the tires so replaced them before going home. I later confessed.

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On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 9:45 AM, Gary Derian

<gade...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Bill and Jan Klemme]

Group,

I just discovered that I had bought non-synthetic 20W50 oil by mistake
(yes, I lost the receipt) so what are the consequences of using that
stuff for one oil change? Seems I've heard that it's not good to switch
between synthetic and regular oil...or maybe that was using synthetic
after years of using the other...causing excessive consumption or
something.

Any wisdom on this?

Thanks,

Bill K

[Gary Derian]

No problem at all.  It is the oil the engine was designed with.  20W is particularly thick at low temperatures, so like the old days, one must keep the revs down before the oil warms up.  But the S38 has an extra oil pressure relief for such conditions.  Also, it won't last as long as a synthetic, and will not protect when super hot, like over 250F.  But for normal road use, it will work well.

Gary Derian

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[Bill Tippett]

You mean 20W is thin at low temps and thick at high temps.

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[Bill Tippett]

Should have added 50 is thick at high temps.  BTW BMW's recommended oil weight in the owner's manual is 20W-40 or 20W-50, not 10W-30.  Conventional is also supposed to be better than synthetic for clinging to surfaces, reducing wear if you don't use the engine frequently.

[Jeff Gomon]

Bill, in case you were asking a question and not making a statement.  When discussing the 20W-50 oil, or any multi weight oil.  The first number preceding the letter 'W' which stands for Winter. This measurement is related to how an oil flows when it is cold, such as at engine start-up. The second number is defined by how an oil flows at normal engine operating temperatures. The smaller the number, the better it will flow.  So, a 20w-50 oil will be thicker at startup during colder outside temperatures than a 5w-50.  But at operating temps, they both will be the same.  

D. Jeff Gomon

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On Sep 3, 2022, at 9:19 AM, Bill Tippett <btip...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:



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[Gary Derian]

All oil gets thicker at lower temperatures and thinner at high.  Multi weight oils thin out less than straight weight, but they all thin out.  W is for winter and the viscosity is tested at 0F.  20W is the thickest W category and this stuff is super thick when cold.  Modern 0W or 5W oils flow well at 0F.  Newer engines don't have the double relief that older high performance engines had because the synthetic oils don't thicken up as much when cold.  

Gary Derian

On Sat, Sep 3, 2022 at 10:19 AM Bill Tippett <btip...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

[Bill and Jan Klemme]

Thanks guys - good info.

Years ago I tried out Mobil-1 0W50 and didn't use it after the first change because at idle with a warm engine the pressure would go to zero and the warning light came on. I did get noticeably better gas mileage.

BTW I know it's dumb to concern myself with gas mileage on a M5 but it's a life-long habit and I have a little note book where I keep track at every fill up. On a trip at 65/70 mph I could see 25 to 27 mpg, but these days around the back roads I will average maybe 18 or 20 if I'm lucky. 

Gary how does a double relief work?

Bill K

[Ben Trigg]

"Conventional is also supposed to be better than synthetic for clinging to surfaces, reducing wear if you don't use the engine frequently."

This is new to me. Conventional oil absorbs water faster resulting in viscosity decreasing over time faster. So if the above is true, it might only be true if you do more frequent time-driven oil changes than as needed with synthetic. 

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[Ben Trigg]

I believe there's a relief valve on all the e28 long style (compared to the short e34) oil pumps. Is this what's being referred to?

[Gary Derian]

The main relief senses pressure in the main galley.  The added relief is in the path between the pump and the block and opens at a higher pressure.  High rpm with old tech cold oil really pushes oil pressure.

Gary Derian

[Gary Derian]

I was looking at the older long pump for the center sump engines.

Gary Derian

[Bill and Jan Klemme]

This is interesting to me who knows little about technical engine stuff....who knew that oil pressure could get too high? I always figured that the oil pump did it's thing and it was all good. Always something to learn.

In any case my original question is answered...I can interchange synthetic and conventional oils. From this discussion it seems I can extend my change interval from my usual 4K to say 6K miles if I use synthetic?

I have noticed that the Mobil-1 15W50 has been a little scarce.  At Napa the other day I declined buying it by the quart because it was $10-something each...they don't carry the 5-quart containers. Then yesterday I found it at Walmart for under $25 per 5-quart jug. That's a bargain so I bought 3 of them.

Thanks again,

Bill K

[Gary Derian]

Walmart has the cheapest M1 anywhere.  Costco has 6 qt packs at nearly the same price per quart, but Costco only carries popular oil, 0W-20 and the like.  With synthetic, I change my oil at the regular service interval our cars have for conventional oil, 7,000 to 9,000 miles.  It always comes out pretty clean.  If you are using conventional oil at a track day, and it gets past 250F or so, then change it right after the weekend.  High temps will cook conventional oil.  Synthetic can go to 300F.

Gary Derian

[Bill and Jan Klemme]

Right. I guess my track days with the M5 are over. It's too much of a risk with a car like this, although we have seen three track days with it some years ago (when it wasn't worth as much and parts were pretty much available).

Do you track your LS-motor car?

[Gary Derian]

I have tracked it twice, both BMWCCA Oktoberfests. Columbus, Ohio 2012, Monterrey, CA 2013.  At Mid-Ohio the oil temp shot to 280 within 3 laps, so I spend most of the time pedaling the straights and shifting up.  After that I added an E32 750i oil cooler under the radiator, but it didn't have a separate air duct like the M5.  That helped a lot, at Laguna Seca the oil kept at 240 or so.

The car ran with E46 M3s both times.  Not a surprise since it has the same weight and the same power, more or less.  The E46s were running sticky tires.  I ran my street Pilot SS tires.  Now it has a hotter cam and ported heads and has about 475 hp.

Gary Derian

[Michael Andre]

This raises a good question: is anyone planning to attend the O'Fest Forever at La Quinta at the end of the month? It's a fun drive away for us so we will be there all week.

Michael Andre

Pardon brief note by cellphone

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From: bmw-e...@googlegroups.com <bmw-e...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Gary Derian <gade...@gmail.com>

Sent: Monday, September 5, 2022 7:06:19 PM
To: Bill and Jan Klemme <wkl...@gmail.com>
Cc: Ben Trigg <org...@gmail.com>; Bill Tippett <btip...@alum.mit.edu>; BMW E34 ///M5 <bmw-e...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [M5] oil question

 

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[mike wong]

Being an active grandfather/golfer has relegated the M5 to unfair neglect, as well as un-renewed BMW car club membership...

Estimate 15-20 years of unopened Roundels...

Member #53187 (no idea how I can remember that #)

Anyone want 35 years of mint Roundels (for shipping costs)?

It would be so amazing to attend O'fest, since the last one I attended was in LA....???

And great to reunite with Mike, Jeff, Will, Mark, et al.... again.

But just recovering from Covid last week, so I have no trips in my immediate future, at tempting as it may be.....

I haven't even visited my old pal, Rodney Moore, for years either... and he's only 17 miles from me.

to all:  Safe travels and stay healthy.....

maybe I can attend next West Coast O'fest.

Mike Wong

91 M5

[Jeff Gomon]

Mike, 

My wife and I will be attending O’fest in Palm Springs but will be heading out in our 2021 Alpine White M2C. Myself and another Regional Vice President are leading a caravan from Eastern Iowa/Chicago, to Lincoln Nebraska , Dillon Colorado, Cedar City Utah and the last day thru Las Vegas to arrive Monday afternoon Sept 26 at the LaQuinta Resort  in Palm Springs.   

I will tell you, most all of activities at O’fest are outdoors or in an indoor area large enough for safe distancing.  We made sure to plan it as such so people could be and feel safe.  Masking is voluntary and I will be bringing my own just in case.  Would love to see you if you change your mind.

As far as the Roundels go, reach out to Michael Mitchell at the BMW CCA Foundation as they may be interested, they maintain a pretty impressive library. 

D. Jeff Gomon

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On Sep 6, 2022, at 12:24 AM, 'mike wong' via BMW E34 ///M5 <bmw-e...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[Bill and Jan Klemme]

475 HP and you haven't been on a track for 9 years? Where do you go to go fast?   Wait.... I don't want to know.

We have a drag strip nearby in Epping NH which I have considered from time to time but haven't done that yet. The M5 is not great as a dragster anyway...now if I could get a bit of a rolling start we'd be a force to contend with.

The E46 M3...our son had a coupe which he used the same day I took the M5 to NH Motor Speedway. For me, the E46 M3 is BMW's best ever. But I still smile when I remember how, after him filling my mirrors and having to give him and others a passby all the time (my left arm was out the window so much I was driving mostly one-handed) he was on my tail coming into the front straight and swung out to pass, and I floored it in third gear....he couldn't get past me until I reluctantly slowed before the end of the straight. His instructor said to him about the M5 "That thing has a lot of motor".

I'd love to get out to O'Fest, and maybe someday, but I'm dropping my CCA membership too. It's not the Roundel it used to be. Politics and gender issues etc. manage to creep their way into every aspect of our lives these days and I just want to step away from that. I enjoy reading articles like yours Gary, a few years ago, and Rob Siegel's stuff every issue, but lately it's not worth the subscription price.

Anyway I appreciate everyone's input here. Maybe we should start a E34 M5 magazine.... bi-yearly.

Bill K

[Gary Derian]

The car weighs only 3300 lb, about 500 less than an M5.  Actually, it was delightful with the stock 350 ish hp.  The LS torque gave it the ability to squirt into traffic like no other high revving torqueless ever.  As for the boost, more is better and too much is just right.  It lost a little of the low end (1000 rpm) torque but really comes alive over 2500.  The track days were for the development of the suspension.  I regularly drive in cheap endurance racing events (AER, Chumpcar) and also some "gentlemen's racing" in SVRA and HSR in a friend's Porsche so I don't have to risk my road car.

Gary Derian