engine swap ideas

[Brock Johnson]

In an effort to make a little list traffic and because I value your opinions, I pose this question.

What is the "best" inexpensive engine swap for a 510 today?

The KA24DE is hard to find and expensive these days.

The SR20DE and DET are just plain expensive.

The K24 is cheap-ish but all of the bits to make it work in a 510 will put you in the poor house.

Other options? Best bang for the buck? Stay with a carbed engine or use a fuel injected engine?

What do you have to say?

Brock

--

Rear Wheel Drive, the way God intended.
If a car is being pulled from the front, doesn't that mean it's being towed?

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

[Alexander Spyropoulos]

If you don't mind a non Nissan engine under the hood I believe the best value for money and can be fast engine is the Mazda/Ford 2.5 duratec .

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[Brock Johnson]

I don't know much about this swap. Looks to be a FWD engine so mounts, trans, clutch and all are custom like a K24 Honda??

[Alexander Spyropoulos]

It can be natively paired with an mx5 gearbox/intake/ECU . Engine mounts have to be fabed

[Brock Johnson]

Thanks for the info. Was just doing a bit of reading and didn't realize that they were in Miatas and Rangers so that makes it easier.

[nandjm...@bellsouth.net]

As a bit of a purist, I still believe that the L-Series motor is the best fit.  That said, I think the EFI Dual Carb looking throttle bodies seem like a great option for people who want fuel injection.  I have been waiting to see more “plug and play” EFI options for 4 cylinders to hit the market but it still seems like the V8 guys are winning that race.

 

The KA and SR may be the easiest options to install because of the huge amount of reference material available on the subject.  The VG is a great option (having driven one) but with the kits becoming scarce you don’t hear much about them anymore.

 

The Honda K looks like a good fit but well…….. Honda.  I’m not ready for “other make” power in my Datsuns.

 

A quick look on the internet yields only two RWD Nissans on the market. The Z and the Armada.  If you want to stay with Nissan power it looks like options will soon be limited to converting FWD powerplants.  Who wants to go first on popping the new Z power into a 510?  I’ll do it if one of you will send me a new Z for the parts 😊

 

 

Nathan in NC

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[Alexander Spyropoulos]

It's a nice all aluminum modern engine,Ford still produces it(low mileage almost new can be found) and it can also make double it's na power in stock form if you are willing to go the forced induction road

[Keith Bailey]

Brock, 

You said: “ The KA24DE is hard to find and expensive these days. “ 

I habe a complete KA24DE with the stage one intake cam, shorty S/S header, aluminum flywheel, and complete 5 speed from a 240SX SE … that I stored to use in my 510. I have a dual mikuni side draft manifold for it as well, and a converted L series igntion distributor to use with it. I was going carbureted with this one. But now I’m rebuilding my L2.2 frankinmotor and won’t need the KA/DE. I’d be willing to sell it - If you’re interested in buying it, lets talk?

Keith 510

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[Brock Johnson]

That is the issue. All of the alternate engine sources are drying up. Converting a FWD engine is such a pain with the intake and transmission attachment.

I've often considered putting the throttle body injection from a Z24 on an L-series doesn't seem that difficult and I have a couple sitting around.

Holley makes a sniper kit for 4 cylinders. I'm sure that could be adapted to an L-20B.

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[Dan Heil]

I'd disagree with the KA24DE being scarce and expensive, Plenty of them for sale on car-part.com  $1300 and downward to ?? Obviously used, from Dismantler cars.

K24, that's the overall expensive mod, adapting to what every transmission or finding the S2000 transmission, which are more difficult to find. 

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Dan 
1987 Yamaha 250SRX
And  510 wagons!

[Brock Johnson]

Keith,

I'm in Manitoba, Canada. I'm not sure where you're located. Shipping might be expensive.

Dan,

Have you looked recently? I see maybe 4 in all of the US and one in Canada (actually local)

If you are talking truck KA24DE then yes, they are plentiful but have that weird truck intake and of course KA24E type timing and oil pump. Not a deal breaker but ugly.

I used to just go to the junkyard, strip a 240SX and put it all in. 

I can find an engine but a factory harness (aftermarket available) and an ECU is a little more difficult.

For me, stock power is perfectly fine so no need for aftermarket management or other (expensive) things.

[Jordan B]

Intakes and transmissions? Sounds optional to me. Go electric!
Jordan B

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[nandjm...@bellsouth.net]

I spent a little time exploring the idea of an EV conversion. It is still a very expensive option even if you source used Tesla parts. If I ever decide to spend that kind of coin on a motor I'll be writing a check to Rebello 😊

Nathan

[David Bliese]

Sounds like Nathan is calling out Lum...

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[nandjm...@bellsouth.net]

Impossible, he is too busy putting a turbo in a Miata 😊

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[Dan Heil]

EV 510, 510 wagon, roadster,,, other nice old classic cars (fiats, alfas...)  That's on my thinking to do list!!! 

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[Dan Heil]

Look at the Altima... hundreds...

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[Joe G]

Anyone done an electric Datsun conversion? I've seen electric 1200s and the 620 or 520 show truck, but not road-going cars.

My partner bought a cheap electric car - a 2017 e-golf - a few years ago to commute in in place of the 375k miles/15mpg truck. Being an older generation, it doesn't do much more than we need it to - it'll get her to work & back with a few spare miles to run errands in the winter, and we didn't get the fast-charging option because back then there wasn't a charger within radius. But the advantages are hard to ignore - even with several years of AEP rate hikes, it costs about $2 to "fill 'er up," the center of gravity is obscenely low, driving through mountains and flooring it off the line don't cost range/efficiency, and it hardly costs anything to sit in traffic all day. Only maintenance on the car in 60k miles was a brake fluid check. Not to mention we ran our house off of it for three days during a blizzard power outage.

I haven't worked on it, but when I had a shop I did some work on hybrid HV electrical systems. All the ones I've worked on have disconnects that break the series battery into their low voltage component cells - I was working with less than 10 volts at a time within a 250v system. Still, didn't want to get too comfortable...I might still have the gloves.

So I've been thinking about an electric conversion for Orangie. An oversized electric motor (still lighter than an ICE), keeping the transmission I built for different "modes" (crawling, acceleration or top speed), and cheap used packs from a Leaf - maybe just enough juice for a spirited drive to keep it light, with space for a larger pack for longer adventures?

-joe

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[Dan Heil]

There are lots of people working on EV conversions of various makes and models, and few companies trying to make some money at it.  EVs West is in San diego. Some are using crashed Telsa parts because there are over a million Teslas on the road, and a fair number of them get crashed (now why is that?).  Depending on where you live and the demand for the crashed cars, those can be a reasonable $$ source of some of the parts.

Ideas/Thoughts: 
give up on the idea of a transmission. It's not needed (see last paragraph) and it's just extra weight and complexity. But that really depends on your ability to match the motors maximum RPM to your desired top speed, AND get the torque/Hp output to match the vehicles for 0 mph acceleration, freeway cruise, hill climbing. See below for 2 speed transmission....

Telsa's and most of these EV cars are half shaft driven from a frame mounted Motor - gear reduction assembly. 8000-12000 RPM motors. 
So mount the motor frame to the floor or rear cross member of a 510 sedan/240Z and get the right half shaft lengths and ends to match the Telsa gear output and the Datsun CV inputs and you've got an Electric motored car. Then figure out where you'll mount the batteries so they are low and you get that 50/50 weight balance. Model S battery packs are shorter, whereas the Model 3 packs are the full length of the Model 3 passenger floor. So Model 3 batteries would be harder to mount to an existing car (won't fit in the trunk and won't fit in the engine bay). 

yeah, it will be a heavier car, but, Telsas are already heavy, and quuuuick, and fast!

510 wagon, Roadster, datsun pickup trucks are all solid rear axle, so you/we (the collective we) will have to figure out how to convert those cars to IRS with a Telsa frame mounted motor mounted to the car frame/body and halfshafts and  stub axle trailing arms (?????). A bit more tricky. OR!! figure out how to get the rear axle modified to have an electric motor welded into a chopped up rear axle.  Wrightspeed (founded by Ian Wright, co founder of Tesla) did exactly that for their initial modifications of FedEx Step Vans, some small box trucks, and garbage trucks. They cut out the center dif and welded in their steel cased 2 speed gear drive electric motor. With one or two (the garbage truck mods) motors. I actually drove one as my buddy was working there for a while. good acceleration. That 2 speed design could be useful for an offroad 4x4, where low is the low gear, and high is the normal driving gear that gets you 85 mph max. 
Wrightspeed's new design seems to adapt 2 motors onto the Differential input (driveshaft input), which could be done to existing truck axles. 90 degree diffs are less efficient than inline gear sets, so a small loss in efficiency, for an easier conversion??? 
https://www.wrightspeed.com/

720, D21 4x4  OK put a model 3 motor with half shafts up front and adapt to the drive yokes on the stock front hub assemblies. Then use a similar sized motor in the hacked up rear axle solution and you've got a 4x4, that might not need a gear reduction system, or maybe it would. Have to do some math on that one. 

The fiat 500e, Nissan Leaf, and a few others have ~125 Hp equivalent sized E motors. Those could be good for similar "stock" performance 510s, 210s, 1200s, and other similar sized 60-70's European and Japanese cars. WIth better acceleration likely.  A ~200 Hp Model 3 motor would make a 510 really move well. 140 mph top speed for a model 3 stock.  Model S motor, that could be really fun, and those will push a Model S to 155mph (with NO transmission!!!!). 

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[matt Armfield]

Great topic, I have a 2 door roller I have been pondering the same, and need to get my vintage car back together.  While I hate to say it, I have been watching for a S2000 setup for the future street car but pricy and I have loads of L stuff it would be keen to use.  I keep thinking about just using a L20B block I have but would like a tad more displacement.  Then I think while it would be cool to shoot fire on shifts, I just am not a fan of how RX7’s sound.  That said I live in Topeka, KS and Jesse Prather is in my back yard and can build a mean rotary.   KA would be nice and could use a lot of my parts too…..  unfortunately Heartland Park just closed which was my local playground.

On Aug 9, 2024, at 5:52 PM, Dan Heil <mack...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[da...@datsuns.com]

Engines eh?   The Honda K makes a ton of sense from a strictly engineering standpoint, but I too am a “must be powered by Nissan” guy (yet my son Carson and I have discussed a Toyota 4AGE for *his* 410, but that’s different).

Why no QR25DE mentions here? More displacement than the SR and KA, more modern, basically SR weight, VG30 (not DE) power, better MPG than all of them. I don’t care that it can’t rev to 7500RPM, It’ll beat the SR20/KA24 with just 6100rpm to play with.  They’re available in wrecking yards all over the place, and you can still get parts from the dealer. They came in Frontiers (2005+) for the RWD orientation/transmission.  You’d want the 2007+ versions as they have worthwhile updates.

If it were me, for 4-cyl I’d go QR25 and for outrageous I’d do VQ35DE. While VQ35\37HR’s are stronger and make more base power (~325hp) they are even taller so I don’t know if there would be fitment issues, height-wise.

 

VQ in a 510 - Do not keep the stock axle ratio and rolling diameter with the VQ 6-speed (get the CD00A, but I digress) transmission, that’s idiotic unless you’re drag racing with slicks. 6^th in that transmission is shorter (.794 vs .752), the extra gear applies to 1^st (3.794 vs 3.214A VQ35DE has more torque than Red until ~2700RPM, so you really are wasting potential with stock ratios in a 510.

 

I run a 3.36 axle, close to stock rolling diameter (until it runs again, new wheels finally)  and even with the 3.2 1^st gear it’s ridiculous.  A VQ 510 with a 3.70 axle and a 3.7 1^st gear? It will never hook up if you use more than probably 30% throttle (Red spins them with just over 45% throttle in 1^st ,datalogging FTW).

 

Dave

 

From: blueb...@googlegroups.com <blueb...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of David Bliese
Sent: Friday, August 9, 2024 1:13 PM
To: nandjm...@bellsouth.net; Bluebird List <BLUEB...@googlegroups.com>

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[futofab]

To expand on the QR25DE engine idea, the engine block has the same bellhousing bolt-up FWD or RWD, unlike the SR20. This allows use of the Sentra (and other) engines. An example is the higher horsepower Sentra SE-R Spec V, rated at 200hp, naturally aspired.

Dave Patten 

Sent from my Galaxy Tab A

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[Brock Johnson]

The QR25DE was never a favorite of mine. When I worked at the dealer they had issues with the close cat disintegrating (did tons of them) the reversion would cause them to suck in the powdered ceramic and destroy the rings and cyl walls. 

With that said, I'm assuming that the stock harness and ECU cannot be used and would require a standalone ECU and tuning . If so, that really brings the cost up. 

Maybe cheaper than a K24 Honda, but less support. Interesting choice.

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[da...@datsuns.com]

This is why I recommended the ’07-later, their redesign was supposed to address those issues (I thought), but if you were seeing this on those too, then….

 

I *can* say VG30DE\TT is a dumb swap in 2024 though, nothing  that can’t be done better with a VQ. TBH I do think there are scenarios where VG30E makes sense vs. VQ since it fits so well.

Dave

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[Brock Johnson]

The VG30E seems to have fallen out of favor but is a very nice swap. Lots of trucks and Pathfinders out there. I have a Pathfinder sitting in my "truck row" for this very purpose.

With that said I have considered the VG30ER. Kinda cool if you don't mind the supercharger sticking out of the hood.

[Jordan B]

Went to our local Datsun show this Sunday, saw SR's of all flavors, L series, KA, even Z20ET, was a bit surprised to see not a single VG in a 510.

Does this count as an E conversion? Looks to be battery powered.

Jordan B

Jordan B

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[Brock Johnson]

That's actually pretty cool. 

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[Brock Johnson]

https://puckerfactoryfab.com/collections/all

Anyone ever heard of these guys? I was researching VG30E-33E swaps and this seems to be one of the last places to get a pan and mounts for those that want to save time and effort.

[Cody Mould]

I have their engine mounts and oil pan, nowhere near David Carroll's quality but it does work. Low volume parts means ordering may take many  months to be delivered. He's a one man band and mostly caters to the Z31 crowd. 

[Brock Johnson]

Thanks. For the amount he wants and the wait time I'll probably just build my own. But nice to see there are still some options out there for an aging semi rare swap. 

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[dat...@aol.com]

Back when I did my VG swap, I actually laid out with a yellow paint marker and cardboard patterns, a cut pattern for a rear sump VG pan, where I could cut the sump section off, along with part of the flat "non" sump bottom, spin it 180 degrees and re-weld it to be a mid sump pan, for the 510.  

I ended up going with a hammer head mid sump pan from Don Olenberg.  But I've held on to a beat up pan to maybe try it out someday.  

For my VG wagon, I just used a Front Sump VG pan and flipped the front crossmember.  I then got a re-curved steering linkage from Michael Spreadbury to clear the crossmember.

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[Brock Johnson]

Refresh my memory. Where does the front sump come from? 

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[dat...@aol.com]

The 200sx (86-88) VG30 had the Front Sump.  300ZX's had the rear sumps.  The VG truck and pathfinders had a variety of designs.

[David Patten]

From a post on NICO

90-92 Infiniti M30, 89-94 Maxima GXE, 89-91 Maxima SE, 85-88 Maxima (has a little kick out on it for more oil capacity though so you'll have to make sure that doesn't get in the way of anything)

I believe also the 200SX with the VG30E. Those are the ones I know of off hand.

Yes the S12 200Sx VG30 engine is front sump. I have one on the floor.

Dave Patten, Owner

FutoFab, LLC

199 Stark Hwy So

Dunbarton, NH 03046-4411

www.FutoFab.com

email - Fut...@gsinet.net

Telephone - (603) 774-6964

Facebook - FutoFab LLC

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From: "Brock Johnson" <datsu...@gmail.com>
To: "Chris Ken" <dat...@aol.com>
Cc: "510 List" <blueb...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2024 5:12:47 PM

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[David Patten]

Dorman has a Maxima pan listed P/N 264-510 (ironically)

Dave Patten, Owner

FutoFab, LLC

199 Stark Hwy So

Dunbarton, NH 03046-4411

www.FutoFab.com

email - Fut...@gsinet.net

Telephone - (603) 774-6964

Facebook - FutoFab LLC

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From: "David Patten" <fut...@gsinet.net>
To: "Brock Johnson" <datsu...@gmail.com>
Cc: "Chris Ken" <dat...@aol.com>, "510 List" <blueb...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2024 5:57:16 PM

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[Cody Mould]

All this time a VG could be reconfigured as a front sump like a KA/SR.... Who knew... My VG30E came with a homemade pan which...worked...but it was poorly designed with no baffles/trapdoors. The Pucker Factory pan has trapdoors, but fit/finish tends to drift. If I can get a VG33 front sump arrangement, then I can flip my crossmember and utilize the 60K mile VG33 in the garage I bought from Danny Youngs years back. Curious if anybody ever had oiling issues with a baffle-less conventional oil pan though??? Aggressively driven street 510, no more delusions of being a racecar lol. Finding a competent machine shop in Norcal to do the rebuild on my VG30E is challenging these days at best.... Crankwalk be damned!

[Brock Johnson]

Can the VG33E be used as is? Or do you need to swap the VG30E manifolds on to it?

IIRC the WD21 Pathfinder intake was the one to use if you couldn't source a 200SX intake? 

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[Cody Mould]

I never experimented with the VG33 manifolds, but my 200SX VG30 ones will bolt right up if you slightly enlarge the bolt holes. Pathy intake was for TBI/carb conversions. 200SX was MPFI. I use the 200SX one. The oil pump and pickup are quite different from the VG30E, which is why i cant just yank the 3 liter out and throw the 3.3 in. I don't possess the welding skills (or any at all haha) to fab the new oil pickup. I have a friend in Sacramento looking to possibly help with this though. 

[Chip Collingwood]

I believe that the angle of the lower intake face to the heads is different. Combining a 200SX upper and a Pathfinder lower gives proper hood clearance. I remember the full Pathfinder intake as a possibility, but may need some decking(shaving) of the upper/lower surface to get hood clearance. Of course my memory isn't great these days.

 

These are mostly bolt up solutions. I think the bigger challenge is the VG33 oil pan mods and having it properly mocked up, fabricated to match the crossmember needs. Or finding someone willing to do it. Mine is still on the stand and hopefully once I get my kids off to college or out of the house it will breathe again in my other 4dr. Sourcing manifolds or building the exhaust side seems to be a more common task for fabricators. The engine mounts are pretty straight forward. I retained the stock oil filled mounts.

Chip Collingwood

theukmotorsports.com

(804) 564-1839

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[Chip Collingwood]

Correct Cody...forgot about the pickup!

Chip Collingwood

theukmotorsports.com

(804) 564-1839

[Chip Collingwood]

My VG33 pan was built by the guy that built "Thumper". Can't recall his name, but I believe he sold that car and it was wrapped around a tree by the new owner.

Chip Collingwood

theukmotorsports.com

(804) 564-1839

[Cody Mould]

Mine was assembled and running for a couple years until crank walk of all things killed it. Easiest path to running again with easily replaced engines would be to get the pickup reconfigured for the VG33 so when that one dies I can go to pick n pull for engines built in the last 20 years instead of 40 years with the VG30E. Im getting old lol

I remember this Thumper guy but cant recall the name, was it Jeff/Team Thump? That's disappointing its demolished....

[Chip Collingwood]

Yes, Jeff Klein...think he was out near Wenatchee

Chip Collingwood

theukmotorsports.com

(804) 564-1839

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[dat...@aol.com]

Chip you're correct.  The Pathfinder/Truck upper intake will fit, but mounting surface needs to be cut at a slight angle to lower the "log" section for hood clearance.  From my understanding the Pathfinder/Truck upper intake is the best flowing off all the manifolds.  The lower manifolds were all supposed to be the same.  

Tom Dockery's Rebello Built VG34 used this manifold setup.  Hopefully Tom will chime in.

Chris

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[Kelvin Dietz]

Battleground, WA. He built a couple dozen Penultimate crossmembers for me before he got bored.

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[vgwagon]

Late to the convo on VG30/33 swap discussions... The lower intakes for vg30e all have the same bolt pattern orientation 

Except the twin throttle body maxima intake. 

I've run 200sx manifold, maxima single TB manifold, early and late pathfinder manifolds all on the same lower manifold with some fuel rail modifications specifically with the fuel pressure regulator locations and neither pathfinder manifolds needed machining to clear my hood on my 69 wagon with one caveat...... The factory 510 engine mounts isolators I purchased new are so soft that the motor torques over enough to lightly touch the under side of my hood under very aggressive launch/racing. As for the 3.3 oil pan and pickup tube fit a 2door 510 without modification I believe. Even with stock style sway bar.  The vg33 crank snout cannot accept VG30e oil pumps so I ended up swapping a 3.0 crank into my Vg33 240z.

I love the VG single slammer swap since I have one in three of my dattos. My 69nwagon since 2003. My 240z with a holset bolted to it and my 78 620 KC. 

Sent from my Galaxy

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[Ward Hill Press]

I have VG30(?) tube exhaust manifolds from a '90 Maxima if anyone
wants them for the flanges. Free for the shipping.
Steve