Is the difficulty reset bug actually a bug, or a feature?
If it's a bug, couldn't we just fix it and let the blockchain reorg on its own?
Signet is definitely not a replacement for testnet.
Luke
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Is the difficulty reset bug actually a bug, or a feature?
If it's a bug, couldn't we just fix it and let the blockchain reorg on its own?
On Mar 31, 2024, at 12:24, Jameson Lopp <jameso...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 10:33 AM Luke Dashjr <lu...@dashjr.org> wrote:Is the difficulty reset bug actually a bug, or a feature?
I haven't thought of or heard of any good reason why it's helpful to have a dozen blocks per second flood the network for several days every time the edge case gets hit.
--If it's a bug, couldn't we just fix it and let the blockchain reorg on its own?
I believe so. Upon closer inspection I think it's actually a soft forkable fix if all we do is restrict the special testnet minimum difficulty rule so that it can't be triggered on the block right before a difficulty retarget.Signet is definitely not a replacement for testnet.
Luke
On 3/31/24 09:19, Jameson Lopp wrote:
Hi all,--
I'd like to open a discussion about testnet3 to put out some feelers on potential changes to it. First, a few facts:
1. Testnet3 has been running for 13 years. It's on block 2.5 million something and the block reward is down to ~0.014 TBTC, so mining is not doing a great job at distributing testnet coins any more.
2. The reason the block height is insanely high is due to a rather amusing edge case bug that causes the difficulty to regularly get reset to 1, which causes a bit of havoc. If you want a deep dive into the quirk: https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/
3. Testnet3 is being actively used for scammy airdrops; those of us who tend to be generous with our testnet coins are getting hounded by non-developers chasing cheap gains.
4. As a result, TBTC is being actively bought and sold; one could argue that the fundamental principle of testnet coins having no value has been broken.
This leads me to ponder the following questions, for which I'm soliciting feedback.
1. Should we plan for a reset of testnet? If so, given how long it has been since the last reset and how many production systems will need to be updated, would a reset need to be done with a great deal of notice?
2. Is there interest in fixing the difficulty reset bug? It should be a one liner fix, and I'd argue it could be done sooner rather than later, and orthogonal to the network reset question. Would such a change, which would technically be a hard fork (but also arguably a self resolving fork due to the difficulty dynamics) necessitate a BIP or could we just YOLO it?
3. Is all of the above a waste of time and we should instead deprecate testnet in favor of signet?
- Jameson
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I think people will be very reluctant to give up testnet3, including myself. I've been running a testnet3 faucet for 10 years, distributing 327197.44 tBTC via the faucet + a few thousand outside the faucet. Resetting the testnet will mean the end for my faucet because I won't be mining new coins anymore. People who have testnet3 will have to find a new way to obtain testnet4.
Are there any official rules for when a testnet reset will occur? If I understand correctly, it's being considered because of the "price" and the low mining reward? When testnet4 launches and starts trading in a month, will testnet5 be launched shortly after...?
I would focus more on how to keep it invaluable and easily accessible to developers. I would definitely leave the transitional phase for at least a year, and the BTC client should have parameters for both -testnet3 and -testnet4. Personally, I think the adoption of testnet4 will be very slow.
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Unfortunately, the current form of Testnet is doomed to have value, just like BTC. Its scarcity makes it a valuable asset. And no reset will change that. It will only result in repeated resets, multiple versions of testnet, and people never learning.
When I imagine what I would have to go through to mine testnet BTC, how much time and money to invest (buying/renting ASIC - CPU mining is a thing of the past), and someone offered me a simpler alternative, to just buy it, I probably wouldn't hesitate and would just buy it. Many people HODL testnet coins precisely because it's difficult to obtain them and they don't want to give them up, regardless of their economic value. People have learned, CRYPTO = HODL.
In my opinion, it's more important to address the issue so that testnet doesn't need to be reset. Because it angers people, even those who aren't responsible and want to use it as intended. I'm afraid that after the reset, mining will be very difficult, expensive, and impossible for most people. Not everyone has an ASIC at home, and CPU mining is out of the question. And faucets won't work. I'm also afraid that whales will emerge who will mine it from the beginning while the reward is high, for worse times.
I have a faucet myself and I know how my users behave, they always want more, and most people HODL it. Only a negligible amount comes back to my faucet. So, the idea of freely sharing is nice but unrealistic.
A reset of testnet that will be "the same" as the old one doesn't make sense to me. Wouldn't it be possible to pre-mine all the coins and distribute them via faucet? Or generate more than 21M? If there are a large number of them, there will be enough for everyone and they will be worthless.
Throwing myself into the conversation because I think there's other devs that use testnet like I do.I mainly use testnet for checking if the utreexod implementation I'm building runs into consensusbugs due to the havoc of how testnet creates bursts of blocks and how it reorganizes itself. I findthe unpredictability a feature.> 1. Testnet3 has been running for 13 years. It's on block 2.5 million something and the block reward is down to ~0.014 TBTC, so mining is not doing a great job at distributing testnet coins any more.For my usage I never really see this as a problem since signet already provides that usecase. WhileI can empathize with devs struggling to get coins, there's always signet for the usecase of testingscripts/wallets. Signet doesn't really provide the same feature for my usecase.> 2. The reason the block height is insanely high is due to a rather amusing edge case bug that causes the difficulty to regularly get reset to 1, which causes a bit of havoc. If you want a deep dive into the quirk: https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/I stated this above but I find this as a feature.> 3. Testnet3 is being actively used for scammy airdrops; those of us who tend to be generous with our testnet coins are getting hounded by non-developers chasing cheap gains.Could I get links/sources for this? I'm curious as to how big of a problem this is.
> 4. As a result, TBTC is being actively bought and sold; one could argue that the fundamental principle of testnet coins having no value has been broken.Same for this. Would appreciate links/evidence.
> 1. Should we plan for a reset of testnet? If so, given how long it has been since the last reset and how many production systems will need to be updated, would a reset need to be done with a great deal of notice?I lean towards no unless the problem with testnet coins being valued is too significant.> 2. Is there interest in fixing the difficulty reset bug? It should be a one liner fix, and I'd argue it could be done sooner rather than later, and orthogonal to the network reset question. Would such a change, which would technically be a hard fork (but also arguably a self resolving fork due to the difficulty dynamics) necessitate a BIP or could we just YOLO it?Again, I'd lean towards keeping it the same.> 3. Is all of the above a waste of time and we should instead deprecate testnet in favor of signet?No as signet doesn't have the features I find valuable in testnet.Best,Calvin
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Hi all,I'd like to open a discussion about testnet3 to put out some feelers on potential changes to it. First, a few facts:
1. Testnet3 has been running for 13 years. It's on block 2.5 million something and the block reward is down to ~0.014 TBTC, so mining is not doing a great job at distributing testnet coins any more.
2. The reason the block height is insanely high is due to a rather amusing edge case bug that causes the difficulty to regularly get reset to 1, which causes a bit of havoc. If you want a deep dive into the quirk: https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/
3. Testnet3 is being actively used for scammy airdrops; those of us who tend to be generous with our testnet coins are getting hounded by non-developers chasing cheap gains.
4. As a result, TBTC is being actively bought and sold; one could argue that the fundamental principle of testnet coins having no value has been broken.
This leads me to ponder the following questions, for which I'm soliciting feedback.
1. Should we plan for a reset of testnet? If so, given how long it has been since the last reset and how many production systems will need to be updated, would a reset need to be done with a great deal of notice?
2. Is there interest in fixing the difficulty reset bug? It should be a one liner fix, and I'd argue it could be done sooner rather than later, and orthogonal to the network reset question. Would such a change, which would technically be a hard fork (but also arguably a self resolving fork due to the difficulty dynamics) necessitate a BIP or could we just YOLO it?
3. Is all of the above a waste of time and we should instead deprecate testnet in favor of signet?
- Jameson
Is the difficulty reset bug actually a bug, or a feature?
If it's a bug, couldn't we just fix it and let the blockchain reorg on its own?
Signet is definitely not a replacement for testnet.
Luke
On 3/31/24 09:19, Jameson Lopp wrote:
Hi all,
I'd like to open a discussion about testnet3 to put out some feelers on potential changes to it. First, a few facts:
1. Testnet3 has been running for 13 years. It's on block 2.5 million something and the block reward is down to ~0.014 TBTC, so mining is not doing a great job at distributing testnet coins any more.
2. The reason the block height is insanely high is due to a rather amusing edge case bug that causes the difficulty to regularly get reset to 1, which causes a bit of havoc. If you want a deep dive into the quirk: https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/
3. Testnet3 is being actively used for scammy airdrops; those of us who tend to be generous with our testnet coins are getting hounded by non-developers chasing cheap gains.
4. As a result, TBTC is being actively bought and sold; one could argue that the fundamental principle of testnet coins having no value has been broken.
This leads me to ponder the following questions, for which I'm soliciting feedback.
1. Should we plan for a reset of testnet? If so, given how long it has been since the last reset and how many production systems will need to be updated, would a reset need to be done with a great deal of notice?
2. Is there interest in fixing the difficulty reset bug? It should be a one liner fix, and I'd argue it could be done sooner rather than later, and orthogonal to the network reset question. Would such a change, which would technically be a hard fork (but also arguably a self resolving fork due to the difficulty dynamics) necessitate a BIP or could we just YOLO it?
3. Is all of the above a waste of time and we should instead deprecate testnet in favor of signet?
- Jameson
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