Project ideas

[Ron Gross]

About SC gambling - there's an ongoing project that does this already -  http://www.sc2btc.com/ - it's been there for quite some time. I imagine they are looking at expanding to other virtual sports.

My thoughts were about creating a P2P lending service, based on ideas from Ripple.

You can lend to your friends for zero/low costs, if you want.

You can lend to strangers based on their reputation.

Basically, it's a website that replaces the lending forum, is fully connected to social networks, and allows people to sell insurance e.g. if I trust Eyal not to default on a loan, I can sell a 3rd party insurance. If the 3rd party trusts me, but doesn't trust Eyal, it's worth it for him to purchase this insurance.

Right now lending is not a positive topic in Bitcoin, in light of the defaults by Pirate and others (e.g. hashking a couple of days ago) ... but I believe the implosion was inevitable because of the huge interest rates and annonimity involved.

This doesn't mean BTC lending is dead. It should find a new home.

I would love to build it if I had the time.

Not sure $10,000 is enough of a budget to get this moving though ... and unfortunately I currently don't have the time to work on this or other ideas.

[Eli Sklar]

Regarding the Lending platform - some off the top of my head assessments:

Basing it on a framework (Django, Symfony, Express) with a modified design from themeforest, and a user management (i.e. authentication) using something like https://www.dailycred.com/, and using Blockchain.info and it's APIs to query for balance and/or act as an escrow system, all could be done in 2 months tops with a single dedicated developer and someone who would be managing the project.

If the developer takes $6-$8k for the project and some stocks, and the manager does this as part of his involvement (i.e. free), it can be done with the budget of $10k in 2-3 months from start to finish.

-Eli

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[Andrew Vorobyov]

He wants it P2P... it's different

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[Eli Sklar]

Some would want direct P2P interactions, others would prefer the security of a 3rd party that would provide escrow services and tracking/management of the fund.

For P2P the estimations is even lower because all you need to do is introduce buyers and sellers and track their voting, but that already existist on bitcoin-OTC site and works quite well.

Anyway, it seems that the concept is far from being baked, and some discussion is still required on specs.

-Eli

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[Andrew Vorobyov]

I wanted this to be a part of the exchange I'm building now but I don't mind if it will spin off as a separate project.

Lending is almost vital requirement for any economy.

IMHO, we can start with NON P2P lending site like Eli said and I approve this message :)

But for this to be serious we need to address next things:

1. People must be able to buy/sell debts.

2. Debts can have collateral

3. Debts might have underwriter... some official entity that is responsible for debt repayment or bankruptcy procedure.

4. People can sell insurance (credit swaps) to guarantee debt repayment by mitigating defaults.

Otherwise, it's just loans between friends or Ponzi schemes...

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[Nahum Kedem]

Hi,

I had such an idea in the past - i am glad you have started this topic.

One of the most important features of PayPal is the guarantee you get when you use it. PayPal stands behind the people who pay with it and cancel transactions with no second thought. I was suffering from this as a seller, i used it few times as buyer. This is how eBay became so big - you can trust the system.

I think that there is a demand for such service with Bitcoin. I am quite sure that many people prefer to make business with unknown people via a trusted 3rd party.

The system itself is quite simple:

One of the parties start the transaction by simply creating it in the system:

- his email (we can provide email service based on Bitcoin address for complete anonymous transactions)

- other party email (or same email system, he will then give it to the other party and then he will be forced to  change password)

- specific terms

- BTC address where they want the funds to be sent

- BTC address for cancellation of transaction

email is sent to both of them, they need to agree on the terms or modify it. Once both agreed, they will be given a Bitcoin address (our address) where they need to send the BTC.

Another email is then sent to both of them, asking to approve the transfer. This can be pending in the system for unlimited time, until they agree to release the funds.

When confirmed, funds are sent to the address they provided before agreement.

If all goes well, funds are released, we take commission.

If not agreed, they both need to provide explanations and agree on the resolution.

If not agreed on resolution, our stuff will try to mediate.

If no mediation was done, funds are released to the second address they provided. (this part needs a beter solution)

I already have a domain name - coiscrow.com :)

This is 12-18 days of work for a skilled programmer and needs few k$ for legal stuff (agreements, TOS, TOU etc).

Nahum

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 3:03 PM, Eli Sklar <eli....@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Ron Gross]

A few clarifications:

1. When I wrote "P2P", I meant the lending itself is P2P. The site itself should be centralized (much better usability than P2P).

2. I don't want to just hack a site that technically does this, I want the site to really look professional (UI/UX work), and promote it. You know, the difference between something that technically works, and something that actually attracts users.

3. Right $10,000 might indeed cover a lot of the bootstrapping cost - assuming it indeed doesn't buy all the rights to the site but rather some of the equity.

4. This sounds like a wildly different site, marketing wise, than Andrew's bitcoin exchange ... I don't think they should be developed together, but rather separately.

The idea is free, if anyone wants to implement it be my guest. I'm fantasizing about implementing it myself, but right now I can't. 

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--

Ron Gross

http://ripper234.com/

[Andrew Vorobyov]

Let's do it step by step:

1. Define minimum viable product specs.

2. Build core.

3. Make API to it so it work at least in command line mode

4. Put website + UX design

We will try to raise some BTC from BTC community (donation/selling equity) including ourselves.

Andrew

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[Ron Gross]

I have lots of stuff going on both at work and personally, so I can't even start organizing this effort for now.

Busy times...

[Andrew Vorobyov]

I don't think we will be doing anything here except supervising work of people who will be hired to get stuff done.

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[Eyal Hertzog]

We had been thinking a lot about a ripple-like approach. this could actually be done on top of the server-based AppCoin application platform that we're currently working on, which takes care of user authentication/email+sms verification/integration with other social networks/strong transaction engine/wallet/apps (e.g. market) and other common currency related requirements. 

some of the thoughts we had..

1. the "credit" solution can work with any currency - not just bitcoin. Credit of us$ can be settled in cash, for example.

2. people giving other people credit actually increase amount of money in circulation which allows more economic activity to take place.

3. this addresses the problem of people rich in time and poor in cash. As more "money" is created - people can exchange more products and services, which essentially means that the cooperation between them becomes more efficient.

4. the "currency" being traded is essentially "digital personal bonds" and just like corporate of government bonds - they are linked to a particular currency (shekels, dollars, bitcoin..)

5. each member may "link" his personal bonds to his friend's personal bonds and decide on the exchange rate and max-holdings - meaning that if Alice trust Bob with up to $1000 - then Alice is willing to issue her bonds in exchange to BOBs bonds. The exchange rate may be 1:1 or 1:1.02 to reflect 2% insurance cost for example.

6. Mutually linking two bonds essentially causes them to act as a single currency (up to the trusted credit limits). A network of interlinked bonds can actually, when considered as a whole, behave as a single currency since each bond is exchangeable to any other bonds, even if it requires few steps to achieve that.

thoughts?

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[Ron Gross]

Very interesting indeed.

It sounds like any such project is indeed better off being developed on top of your platform than in thin air / bitcoin only.

When will you guys be ready with a beta?

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[Lior Hakim]

The notions of debt and loan are of the fractional reserve paradigm. it is know to create false incentives and perception for money!
We want to tune into abundance, where sharing and gifts are much more positive concepts of transferring value

[Amir]

I'd have to respectfully disagree.  Debt and loans are not specific to fractional reserve banking, and infact exist outside of the monetary system entirely.  I loan you three cows, you owe me three cows.  I would agree that with fractional reserve and fiat currency practices there is a perceptual distortion of money and can negatively effect the system as a whole; yet I also believe fractional supply can be relevant to certain economic models.

As for tuning into abundance, and applying good/bad to economics as a whole, this statement is somewhat Utopian and anti-capitalistic to me, not that there's anything wrong with that, but perhaps you can further explain this concept by pointing to a relevant economic model or wiki page.  I think there is much confusion between free market capitalism and corporate capitalism, leading to the inappropriate blaming of capitalism for the current state of affairs; or simply confusing the meaning of the word altogether.

I can comprehend the idea of developing a foundation for a give economy to force a better world, yet cannot see how it can maintain sustainability and efficiency without free market principles.  I think it is good economics that produces good morality, not the other way around. 

Interested in your guys opinions...

Amir

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[Ron Gross]

A general +1 to Amir.

Lending is not evil. Lenders should earn interest to motivate them to lend (or have other social motivation).

If I lend to a friend, I might do it without interest.

If I lend to a stranger, I require some interest to make it worth my risk.

This stranger can then lend to another one.

There's no real way to limit fractional reserve without hurting personal rights (If I have something, I have the right to lend it away).

[Andrew Vorobyov]

After one year of knowing bitcoin I came to conclusion that is almost perfect system, except lending...

Lending in BTC will never be like it works in fiat currencies - that's a price we pay for having deflationary currency.

The first thing that comes into mind - ripple like systems tied to BTC, but it will also fail because debt amount will have skew to grow faster.

This brings us to Amir's brilliant words - "debt exist outside of the monetary system entirely. I loan you three cows, you owe me three cows"

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[Leo]

ownership is not the best model for effectiveness.
Why in the the world would u OWN 3 cows?
we are now in the stage of evolution where we can build a much smarter sharing model.
think of a public library.. try to see beyond the "I lend a book", and "the library owns the book"
now decentralized the library and multiply on that librarian software.. and walla, a new Utopia (for a while)

the easiest way to explain the problem with ownership is to look outside of your window and see the amount of cars standing, ohhh the waste of resources.. 

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[Amir]

The ownership of houses and cars is an illusion, they are mostly owned by the banks...and if indeed people did not have such easy access to fiat money lending the free market would have found much better solutions, we probably would be flying from place to place by now.

As for the library analogy I am against copyright and patent laws, and think that information in it's nature is free and should always be free. Claiming a right to a sequence of zeros and ones is one of the most preposterous ideas man has invented, almost as if to make human cognition itself illegal.

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[Ron Gross]

Right of ownership / private property is not going away any time soon.

[Leo]

@Amir:  that's the spirit
@Ron:  if you can think of how to changed it, it will happen sooner than u think

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[Eyal Hertzog]

There is a fundamental difference between lending for interest, and giving credit. Giving credit essentially creates new money in the circulation. The best examples are Ripple (one-to-one credit giving) and LETS (many-to-many credit giving). When there is no interest (actually usury) - there is no default - simply because of the fact that the credit line cannot be passed and the "debt" doesn't grow since there is no interest. This is very also different than the fractional reserve system being used today.

Sent from my iPad

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[Matthew Reed]

have you seen lendingclub.com? i've used it. The only room for improvement I felt would be a bit more simplification on how the rates work and perhaps a clear roadmap of payments ahead - they also have hefty "loan origination" fees that kind of suck, gives the user the feeling of "oh heres the catch". Essentially they use a credit report to put you in a risk pool and assign an apr to your requested loan amount accordingly. Beyond that, the lenders choose which risk pool they want to wade in. I think it is working great so far from my perspective, but that is unsubstantiated from a business perspective.

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