soc.couples.intercultural - Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Steve Frampton
A few words before I begin...for those of you who aren't aware, voting
is currently in progress for a proposed newsgroup devoted to
inter-cultural and inter-racial relationships. The proposed group is
called, "soc.couples.intercultural", and if you wish to participate in
the vote please see "news.groups" or "news.announce.newgroups" for
instructions.
With that out of the way...
I am putting together a "FAQ" (Frequently Asked Questions) document for
soc.couples.intercultural. I realize the votes aren't all in yet, and
the group may pass or it may not pass, however I would like to put
together this document "just in case".
If the group does not pass, I'm sure this document could be distributed
on the net by other means anyways, so I think this is a worthwhile
project.
If the group *does* pass, then I'm sure that having a FAQ document all
ready to go would help enlighten new visitors to the group, as well as
widen the audience somewhat.
So please, couples of an inter-cultural/-racial nature, send me those
nagging questions that you really want answered, or perhaps take the time
to answer the questions below that I have come up with. With a little work,
this FAQ could be quite a useful guide for these types of relationships.
Here are some hypothetical questions to get us started...
Q) My 7-year-old half-African, half-Asian son has been experiencing
racial discrimination from child peers. Black children taunt him
because he's "white", while white children taunt him because he's
"black". How can we teach him to deal with this?
Q) Our 15-year-old daughter, mixed offspring from an Asian/Caucasian
marriage, is experiencing questions and doubts as to her culture and
heritage.
Q) My Asian wife's family hates me. We live comfortably, I have broadened
my horizons by learning her language, appreciate her culture, but they
can't seem to get past the fact that I'm not Asian. They are very
important to my wife. How can I get them to accept me?
Hmmm...well this is harder than I thought. :-)
Anyways, please send your submissions to 284...@jeff-lab.queensu.ca. If
suitable, they will be included herein and your name and e-mail address
will be credited in the FAQ.
Thank you all.
--< Voting deadline on soc.couples.intercultural is Oct 12! >--
Steve Frampton Home: <fram...@vicuna.ocunix.on.ca>
Kingston, Ontario School: <284...@jeff-lab.queensu.ca>
Bryan Wu
So really this is about race, not really about culture, right? (at least,
judging from the above hypothetical questions)
Steve Frampton
: So really this is about race, not really about culture, right? (at least,
: judging from the above hypothetical questions)
Man, you are really diligent aren't you? For all the wrong reasons,
however. No, this is not all about race. I am trying to get a FAQ
started and those were the only things I could think of at the time.
Why don't you offer some suggestions instead of some unfounded critism?
-------< $@$o$?$7$O!"$K$[$s$4$N$Y$s$-$g$&$r$7$F$$$^$9!#(J >-------
Bryan Wu
>Bryan Wu (b...@panix.com) wrote:
>: So really this is about race, not really about culture, right? (at least,
>: judging from the above hypothetical questions)
>
>Man, you are really diligent aren't you? For all the wrong reasons,
>however. No, this is not all about race. I am trying to get a FAQ
>started and those were the only things I could think of at the time.
>
>Why don't you offer some suggestions instead of some unfounded critism?
I don't think that criticism was unfounded at all. I'm assuming that your
proposed group is supposed to be to discuss interracial relationships,
such a relationship between a black person and a white person. Am I
correct in that assumption? If so, then I don't know if I'd call that an
intercultural relatioship, but simply an interracial one. Also, I don't
even know if I'd call my question criticism.. However, I guess you do
notice that of the questions you had for your hypothetical FAQ, the issues
raised in those questions were quandrys due to race and not to culture.
(your questions were: does kid identify as black or Asian?, parents have a
problem with their in-law's race -what to do, etc.) Therefore, I'm
wondering, if it's race issues being discussed, then why call them culture
issues?
Bryan
Brian Odom
>Bryan Wu (b...@panix.com) wrote:
>: So really this is about race, not really about culture, right? (at least,
>: judging from the above hypothetical questions)
>Man, you are really diligent aren't you? For all the wrong reasons,
>however. No, this is not all about race. I am trying to get a FAQ
>started and those were the only things I could think of at the time.
Which is why a long time ago, I voted to have the new group named,
soc.culture.interracial. However, some stupid PC stuff got in the way, I
guess.
>Why don't you offer some suggestions instead of some unfounded critism?
His criticism was his suggestion. Basically, why is the group called
intercultural when the hypothetical questions discuss race?
Even though, I'm not going to vote for the new newsgroup, I have some
suggestions for a FAQ...
I know it's a stupid reason, but I'm going to vote because I don't like the
name and I think it's misleading.
Statistics (if we can find some) on interracial relationships...
divorce rates
increase in percentage in interracial relationships since 19xx
sex and race %'s in relationships (eg. white and asian...
what % is white man, asian woman and vice versa)
current trends
forseeable future
Not only mixed children, but how do parents react when their child becomes
involved in an interracial relationship.
points to ponder...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am involved in an interracial relationship. How should I deal with the
following:
difference in skin color
difference in culture
how to deal with strangers when they see you holding hands down the street
also, what made you decide to get involved?
how to deal with loved ones and close friends (especially parents)
what about the kids
would sex be different
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am of mixed heritage. How should I deal with the following:
Who ethnic group should my dating partners be?
Who do I closely associate myself with
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have already committed to an interracial relationship. How should I deal
with my kids and their outlook on life?
What to tell your kids?
How to deal with the negative reaction from the child's peers?
How to I get to my parents-in-law to accept me better?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
oh, I almost forgot... the newsgroup will be called soc.couples.intercultural
(for God knows why), but since I'm not committed to any religions or social
cultures (i guess that makes me an atheist), I can't comment too much on
culture. I really don't have a culture. I just live my life. I don't follow
family or religious traditions and/or customs; I am my own person and I have
my own culture (if that makes sense).
oh well, flame if you want... (I have a fireproof suit on)
D Lamptey
Stop the *f**8 sniping. Those example questions could just as easily involve
race issues as cultural issues. The line really has got to be too fine to
draw a difference!
raceA+raceA can lead to cultural differences;
raceA+raceB can lead to cultural differences as well;
raceA+raceB -> possibly race conflict, definitely difference! :)
Is the point here, that it should have been s.c.mixed???
Derr,,,,
Brian Odom
>Jeez, people...!
>Stop the *f**8 sniping. Those example questions could just as easily involve
>race issues as cultural issues. The line really has got to be too fine to
>draw a difference!
>raceA+raceA can lead to cultural differences;
>raceA+raceB can lead to cultural differences as well;
We know that. So what does soc.culture.intercultural have to do with
interracial relationships then!
>raceA+raceB -> possibly race conflict, definitely difference! :)
Definitely difference in culture? No, it's not that way. I'm sure that
raceA+raceB -> similar cultures
That's how I met the women I've been with and what I've seen.
>Is the point here, that it should have been s.c.mixed???
Yes. Anything, but intercultural, but the world doesn't revolve around me
and when I can't have things my way, I simply choose not to participate.
I wish it were interracial or mixed, but it's not, so no vote for me.
I know, I'm shallow, so shoot me.
R3...@vm1.cc.uakron.edu
bo...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Brian Odom) writes:
>
>In <CEA0I...@knot.ccs.queensu.ca> 2843600@jeff-lab@queensu.ca (Steve Frampton) writes:
>
>>Bryan Wu (b...@panix.com) wrote:
>
>>: So really this is about race, not really about culture, right? (at least,
>>: judging from the above hypothetical questions)
>
>>Man, you are really diligent aren't you? For all the wrong reasons,
>>however. No, this is not all about race. I am trying to get a FAQ
>>started and those were the only things I could think of at the time.
>
>Which is why a long time ago, I voted to have the new group named,
>soc.culture.interracial. However, some stupid PC stuff got in the way, I
>guess.
>
>>Why don't you offer some suggestions instead of some unfounded critism?
>
>His criticism was his suggestion. Basically, why is the group called
>intercultural when the hypothetical questions discuss race?
>
>Even though, I'm not going to vote for the new newsgroup, I have some
>suggestions for a FAQ...
>
>I know it's a stupid reason, but I'm going to vote because I don't like the
>name and I think it's misleading.
serving? Did it ever occur to you that there are cultural factors that have
nothing to do with race that can cause major problemin a relationship? Just
because the guy who posted the sample questions only mentionedblack/white
relationships doesn't mean that that's all that will be discussed on the group.
Religion, language, national origin; all will come into play. And let's not
forget the groups that don't quite fit into any racial group, but make up a
sizable population, such as Hispanics(can be white, black, mostly Indian or any
mix thereof, as long as there's Spanish origin in there somewhere).
Sometimes it seems like some people will look for any excuse to complain.
-phil
Jim Houchens
>In <CEA0I...@knot.ccs.queensu.ca> 2843600@jeff-lab@queensu.ca (Steve Frampton) writes:
>>Bryan Wu (b...@panix.com) wrote:
>>: So really this is about race, not really about culture, right? (at least,
>>: judging from the above hypothetical questions)
>>
>>Man, you are really diligent aren't you? For all the wrong reasons,
>>however. No, this is not all about race. I am trying to get a FAQ
>>started and those were the only things I could think of at the time.
>>
>>Why don't you offer some suggestions instead of some unfounded critism?
>I don't think that criticism was unfounded at all. I'm assuming that your
>proposed group is supposed to be to discuss interracial relationships,
>such a relationship between a black person and a white person. Am I
>correct in that assumption? If so, then I don't know if I'd call that an
>intercultural relatioship, but simply an interracial one.
I think a relationship between black and white americans would be both
interacial and intercultural. While they would share many cultural
values and ideas, both being Americans, they would also have different
cultural values and ideals, coming from different cultural groups.
-- Jim
Terrance Heath
>In <CEA0I...@knot.ccs.queensu.ca> 2843600@jeff-lab@queensu.ca (Steve Frampton) writes:
>>Bryan Wu (b...@panix.com) wrote:
>>: So really this is about race, not really about culture, right? (at least,
>>: judging from the above hypothetical questions)
>>
>>Man, you are really diligent aren't you? For all the wrong reasons,
>>however. No, this is not all about race. I am trying to get a FAQ
>>started and those were the only things I could think of at the time.
>>
>>Why don't you offer some suggestions instead of some unfounded critism?
>
>I don't think that criticism was unfounded at all. I'm assuming that your
>proposed group is supposed to be to discuss interracial relationships,
>such a relationship between a black person and a white person. Am I
>correct in that assumption? If so, then I don't know if I'd call that an
>intercultural relatioship, but simply an interracial one. Also, I don't
I'd probalby call them intercultural, because in reality there
is only one "race", that being the human race. Another term I've
heard used for such relationships is "cross-cultural". I can tell you
that there is a difference in cultural outlook when one grows up in an
ethnic minority home and community. The values, the outlook on history
and community are differnt in the African-American community, where I
come from, than I find them in the dominant culture. Sometimes those
differences can produce challenges to realtionships between people of
different backgrounds.
--
Terrance Heath he...@phoenix.cs.uga.edu
***************************************************************************
"To love without roles, without power plays, that is revolution."
************************** Rita Mae Brown *********************************
Bryan Wu
As he and I said in our followups, the questions in the hypothetical FAQ
dealt only with race issues and perceptions of race, not culture. If that's
what's going to be discussed in the group, then call it .interracial, not
.intercultural. Why try calling a frog a duck when you're really referring
to frogs?
> Sometimes it seems like some people will look for any excuse to complain.
Seems to me that you didn't really read what I, or the other guy, wrote.
>-phil
Bryan
Bryan Wu
>In article <28ochn$q...@panix.com>, Bryan Wu <b...@panix.com> wrote:
>>In <CEA0I...@knot.ccs.queensu.ca> 2843600@jeff-lab@queensu.ca (Steve Frampton) writes:
>>>Bryan Wu (b...@panix.com) wrote:
>>>: So really this is about race, not really about culture, right? (at least,
>>>: judging from the above hypothetical questions)
>>>
>>>Man, you are really diligent aren't you? For all the wrong reasons,
>>>however. No, this is not all about race. I am trying to get a FAQ
>>>started and those were the only things I could think of at the time.
>>>
>>>Why don't you offer some suggestions instead of some unfounded critism?
>>
>>I don't think that criticism was unfounded at all. I'm assuming that your
>>proposed group is supposed to be to discuss interracial relationships,
>>such a relationship between a black person and a white person. Am I
>>correct in that assumption? If so, then I don't know if I'd call that an
>>intercultural relatioship, but simply an interracial one. Also, I don't
>
> I'd probalby call them intercultural, because in reality there
>is only one "race", that being the human race. Another term I've
>heard used for such relationships is "cross-cultural". I can tell you
>that there is a difference in cultural outlook when one grows up in an
>ethnic minority home and community. The values, the outlook on history
>and community are differnt in the African-American community, where I
>come from, than I find them in the dominant culture. Sometimes those
>differences can produce challenges to realtionships between people of
>different backgrounds.
Agreed. My point is that the questions propsed for the FAQ really all
dealt with how others and ourselves, percieve each other due to race, not
due to culture. If there were a group to discuss differences between
cultures, that's fine.. but judging only from the proposed FAQ questions,
the issue people want to discuss are mainly issues of race, and to a
much lesser extent, culture.
Bryan
Terrance Heath
>Agreed. My point is that the questions propsed for the FAQ really all
>dealt with how others and ourselves, percieve each other due to race, not
>due to culture. If there were a group to discuss differences between
>cultures, that's fine.. but judging only from the proposed FAQ questions,
>the issue people want to discuss are mainly issues of race, and to a
>much lesser extent, culture.
Not to be pedantic, or agrumentative, but if you accept that
there is only one race, the human race, then how can there be "racial
differnces"? Look deeply enough and you will find the issues are more
cultural than racial.
Brian Odom
>In article <CEDCM...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
>bo...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Brian Odom) writes:
>
>>
>>In <CEA0I...@knot.ccs.queensu.ca> 2843600@jeff-lab@queensu.ca (Steve Frampton) writes:
>>
>>>Bryan Wu (b...@panix.com) wrote:
>>I know it's a stupid reason, but I'm going to vote because I don't like the
>>name and I think it's misleading.
>
> Yes, it is a stupid reason. How could you be so narrow minded and self-
>serving? Did it ever occur to you that there are cultural factors that have
>nothing to do with race that can cause major problemin a relationship? Just
>because the guy who posted the sample questions only mentionedblack/white
>relationships doesn't mean that that's all that will be discussed on the group.
Get the people straight here. Yes, I said I'm not going to vote for the
group and I am black and I don't have a gripe because the sample questions
only mentioned black and white. You must be upset at Bryan Wu. I did post
a few more sample questions.
>Religion, language, national origin; all will come into play. And let's not
>forget the groups that don't quite fit into any racial group, but make up a
>sizable population, such as Hispanics(can be white, black, mostly Indian or any
>mix thereof, as long as there's Spanish origin in there somewhere).
Hispanics are a racial group. What do you mean they don't quite fit?
Steve Frampton
: I don't think that criticism was unfounded at all. I'm assuming that your
: proposed group is supposed to be to discuss interracial relationships,
: such a relationship between a black person and a white person. Am I
: correct in that assumption?
No, you are not correct in that assumption. If you had taken the time to read
the proposal before speaking out against the group, perhaps you'd have
discovered that the proposed group will deal with intercultural, interracial,
and interreligious relationships.
It has *little* to do with a "black and white" relationship -- except for the
fact that questions and discussions about that kind of relationship will be
welcome as will all the others.
: Therefore, I'm wondering, if it's race issues being discussed, then why call
: them culture issues?
Go read the proposal (which has been bantered around since July) and then
try again.
Steve Frampton
: Which is why a long time ago, I voted to have the new group named,
: soc.culture.interracial. However, some stupid PC stuff got in the way, I
: guess.
Majority rules...deal with it.
: His criticism was his suggestion. Basically, why is the group called
: intercultural when the hypothetical questions discuss race?
Because *I* *I* *I* *I* *I* came up with the &$@#$! questions as a starter
for other questions. That's why. Me. Myself. And I. An interested
party who wanted to start a FAQ.
If you want more religious, or more racial, or more cultural questions in
the FAQ, THEN STOP WHINING AND SEND IN A SUBMISSION. Or write your own FAQ.
: Statistics (if we can find some) on interracial relationships...
Sorry...if you want these included send them to the submission address.
Steve Frampton
: Agreed. My point is that the questions propsed for the FAQ really all
: dealt with how others and ourselves, percieve each other due to race, not
: due to culture. If there were a group to discuss differences between
: cultures, that's fine.. but judging only from the proposed FAQ questions,
: the issue people want to discuss are mainly issues of race, and to a
: much lesser extent, culture.
Thick. Headed.
You don't know what *my* situation is. Perhaps I am a white going out with
an Asian, who grew up as my next door neighbour. Therefore we are interracial,
*not* intercultural. Therefore from my frame of reference I came up with the
only questions I could think of.
That is not to say the FAQ, or the group, will deal exclusively with questions
of type 'race'. It is to say, however, that I offered some questions to get
the &#$%@ thing started and that is what I thought of.
Ah, shoot...why do I even bother. Maybe I should just forget about the
faqing FAQ.
Deepak Brar
|> In <CEA0I...@knot.ccs.queensu.ca> 2843600@jeff-lab@queensu.ca (Steve Frampton) writes:
|> >Bryan Wu (b...@panix.com) wrote:
|> >: So really this is about race, not really about culture, right? (at least,
|> >: judging from the above hypothetical questions)
|> >
|> >Man, you are really diligent aren't you? For all the wrong reasons,
|> >however. No, this is not all about race. I am trying to get a FAQ
|> >started and those were the only things I could think of at the time.
|> >
|> >Why don't you offer some suggestions instead of some unfounded critism?
|>
|> I don't think that criticism was unfounded at all. I'm assuming that your
|> proposed group is supposed to be to discuss interracial relationships,
|> such a relationship between a black person and a white person. Am I
|> correct in that assumption?
No. This issue has been beaten to death and back on news.groups. Jeff even
took a straw poll on possible names and s.c.i was the outcome of that poll.
I believe that the charter for soc.culture.intercultural clearly indicates
that the group will be about both intercultural and interracial relationships.
|> If so, then I don't know if I'd call that an
|> intercultural relatioship, but simply an interracial one. Also, I don't
|> even know if I'd call my question criticism.. However, I guess you do
|> notice that of the questions you had for your hypothetical FAQ, the issues
|> raised in those questions were quandrys due to race and not to culture.
|> (your questions were: does kid identify as black or Asian?, parents have a
|> problem with their in-law's race -what to do, etc.)
As I said, the charter clearly covers both interracial and intercultural. Jeff's
questions just happened to be all of an interracial flavor.
|> Therefore, I'm
|> wondering, if it's race issues being discussed, then why call them culture
|> issues?
|>
Because there are people who will vote against the group if it is called
soc.culture.interracial. The idea is to get the group passed. As we now see,
people are deciding to vote against it (or not vote) because it is
"intercultural" and not "interracial". Proves the old adage once again.
|> Bryan
Deepak
------
Fazia Begum Rizvi
>In <16C5D85...@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU> R3...@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU writes:
>>In article <CEDCM...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
>>bo...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Brian Odom) writes:
>>>>Why don't you offer some suggestions instead of some unfounded critism?
>>>
>>>His criticism was his suggestion. Basically, why is the group called
>>>intercultural when the hypothetical questions discuss race?
Uh, maybe because _other_ hypothetical questions could deal soley with
_cultural_ differences and not racial ones? He _did_ ask for more questions...
Example hypothetical question:
"My husband is from Pakistan, and I'm from India. Our daughter has had
some questions about the tension between Pakistan and India over Kashmir.
How should we deal with this?
Same race, different culture. Add different religions (or one having converted
and so they are having extended family problems). And you've got quite a grab
bag of differences there, and none of it 'Black and White' interracial mixing.
>>>Even though, I'm not going to vote for the new newsgroup, I have some
>>>suggestions for a FAQ...
>>>
>>>I know it's a stupid reason, but I'm going to vote because I don't like the
>>>name and I think it's misleading.
>>
>> Yes, it is a stupid reason. How could you be so narrow minded and self-
>>serving? Did it ever occur to you that there are cultural factors that have
>>nothing to do with race that can cause major problemin a relationship? Just
>>because the guy who posted the sample questions only mentionedblack/white
>>relationships doesn't mean that that's all that will be discussed on the
>>group. Religion, language, national origin; all will come into play. And
What he said squared.
>As he and I said in our followups, the questions in the hypothetical FAQ
>dealt only with race issues and perceptions of race, not culture. If that's
>what's going to be discussed in the group, then call it .interracial, not
>..intercultural. Why try calling a frog a duck when you're really referring
>to frogs?
And who said that would be the only thing discussed in the group? Three
hypothetical questions do not create a FAQ. He _did_ say that these were
the only questions that _he_ could come up with. Gee. I wonder if there are
other people out there with different questions, like maybe this one:
Another hypothetical question:
My boyfriend and I are different religions. Well actually, we're not very
religious, but our familes are. We want to get married, but are afraid to
break the news to our families. (They don't know we are dating-they wouldn't
approve.) Any help for this sticky situation?
Well now, these two could be Irish Catholic and Jewish and both white, or
maybe Buddist and Christian and both Veitnamese. What about an Arab Jew and
an Arab muslim?
>> Sometimes it seems like some people will look for any excuse to complain.
>
>Seems to me that you didn't really read what I, or the other guy, wrote.
Seems to me he did. And tried to point out your misconception, which seemed
to fly right past you.
None of the above questions are ones that I'm submitting to the FAQ (though if
someone out there thinks that they are good enough, s'okay to use them.) I'll
submit mine by e-mail, with the exception of one. Perhaps it could be first in
the FAQ?
Q: Why do people always assume that a 'mixed relationship' is a black/white
relationship and ignore that extreme cultural or religious differences between
people of the same race can constitute a 'mixed relationship' as well?
ad astra per ardua,
-Faz
--
Fazia Begum Rizvi Children's laughter around with smiling faces/Like
st...@jetson.uh.edu flowers bloom/Know no tribes or races/Give them
University of Houston love/Give them hope and music from all places/Eagles
<The Space City> fly high/Always to find new spaces. _Mamaieba_
***********PRACTICE RANDOM KINDNESS AND SENSELESS ACTS OF BEAUTY***********
Bryan Wu
>Bryan Wu (b...@panix.com) wrote:
>: Agreed. My point is that the questions propsed for the FAQ really all
>: dealt with how others and ourselves, percieve each other due to race, not
>: due to culture. If there were a group to discuss differences between
>: cultures, that's fine.. but judging only from the proposed FAQ questions,
>: the issue people want to discuss are mainly issues of race, and to a
>: much lesser extent, culture.
>
>Thick. Headed.
Hey, you're the one who came up with the FAQ questions, right? If so,
then how about you dealing with cultural issues rather than "if one parent
is black and the other Asian, then what will the kid be?" I asked a
simple question based on your "FAQ Questions", you don't have to be an
asshole about it.
Bryan
Steve Frampton
poll decided, once and for all, whether to go with 'interracial'
'intercultural' or 'mixed', and the results were to go with 'intercultural'.
The intercultural group will be an umbrella for intercultural and interracial
relationships. Don't even think of trying to exclude the interracial folks
since we were the ones to even propose this ^@#$ group.
-------< $@$o$?$7$O!"$K$[$s$4$N$Y$s$-$g$&$r$7$F$$$^$9!# (J >-------
Steve Frampton
: No. This issue has been beaten to death and back on news.groups. Jeff even
: took a straw poll on possible names and s.c.i was the outcome of that poll.
Actually my name is Steve. :-)
I just want to clear something up...people are having trouble mailing to me
in some cases, because the 'XCULT-L' BITNET gateway is *retarded*. For some
unknown reason, it seems to convert my valid 'From:' address to:
instead of leaving it alone at:
Why? Who knows. But if you're having trouble sending me mail, please override
the address when replying to an XCULT-L mail item.
: As I said, the charter clearly covers both interracial and intercultural. Jeff's
: questions just happened to be all of an interracial flavor.
Ah, so *somebody* else sees my true intentions! Thank you.
-------< $@$o$?$7$O!"$K$[$s$4$N$Y$s$-$g$&$r$7$F$$$^$9!#(J >-------
Steve Frampton
: Hey, you're the one who came up with the FAQ questions, right? If so,
: then how about you dealing with cultural issues rather than "if one parent
: is black and the other Asian, then what will the kid be?"
Then I reiterate what I said before, STOP WHINING AND START SUBMITTING.
And Bryan, I know you too well. You weren't asking a simple question, you
were trying to stir things up. I wonder who is the real a$$hole here.
R3...@vm1.cc.uakron.edu
In <16C5D85...@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU> R3...@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU writes:
>In article <CEDCM...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
>bo...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Brian Odom) writes:
>>>Why don't you offer some suggestions instead of some unfounded critism?
>>
>>His criticism was his suggestion. Basically, why is the group called
>>intercultural when the hypothetical questions discuss race?
>>
>>Even though, I'm not going to vote for the new newsgroup, I have some
>>suggestions for a FAQ...
>>
>>I know it's a stupid reason, but I'm going to vote because I don't like the
>>name and I think it's misleading.
>
> Yes, it is a stupid reason. How could you be so narrow minded and self-
>serving? Did it ever occur to you that there are cultural factors that have
>nothing to do with race that can cause major problemin a relationship? Just
>because the guy who posted the sample questions only mentionedblack/white
>relationships doesn't mean that that's all that will be discussed on the group.
>Religion, language, national origin; all will come into play. And let's not
>forget the groups that don't quite fit into any racial group, but make up a
>sizable population, such as Hispanics(can be white, black, mostly Indian or any
>mix thereof, as long as there's Spanish origin in there somewhere).
As he and I said in our followups, the questions in the hypothetical FAQ
dealt only with race issues and perceptions of race, not culture. If that's
what's going to be discussed in the group, then call it .interracial, not
.intercultural. Why try calling a frog a duck when you're really referring
to frogs?
> Sometimes it seems like some people will look for any excuse to complain.
Seems to me that you didn't really read what I, or the other guy, wrote.
>-phil
Bryan
shortest attention span. Re-read what the underlined text from my original
post and compare it to your posts. Christ, Bryan, sometimes it seems like you
suspend rational thought just to prolong an argument....
-phil
R3...@vm1.cc.uakron.edu
bo...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Brian Odom) writes:
>
>In <16C5D85...@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU> R3...@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU writes:
>
>>In article <CEDCM...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
>>bo...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Brian Odom) writes:
>>
>>>
>>>In <CEA0I...@knot.ccs.queensu.ca> 2843600@jeff-lab@queensu.ca (Steve Frampton) writes:
>>>
>>>>Bryan Wu (b...@panix.com) wrote:
>
>>>I know it's a stupid reason, but I'm going to vote because I don't like the
>>>name and I think it's misleading.
>>
>> Yes, it is a stupid reason. How could you be so narrow minded and self-
>>serving? Did it ever occur to you that there are cultural factors that have
>>nothing to do with race that can cause major problemin a relationship? Just
>>because the guy who posted the sample questions only mentionedblack/white
>>relationships doesn't mean that that's all that will be discussed on the group.
>
>Get the people straight here. Yes, I said I'm not going to vote for the
>group and I am black and I don't have a gripe because the sample questions
>only mentioned black and white. You must be upset at Bryan Wu. I did post
>a few more sample questions.
meaning applications and intentions solely because you didn't like the name.
Just what do you find misleading about the name?
>
>>Religion, language, national origin; all will come into play. And let's not
>>forget the groups that don't quite fit into any racial group, but make up a
>>sizable population, such as Hispanics(can be white, black, mostly Indian or any
>>mix thereof, as long as there's Spanish origin in there somewhere).
>
>Hispanics are a racial group. What do you mean they don't quite fit?
virtually white, and some who are indistinguishable from black. If you take a
look at nations like Cuba, you'd see every racial permutation under the sun;
the only thing they all have in common is Spanish heritage in their past. Yet
they're all called Hispanic...that sounds like a cultural link to me.....
-phil
Mr. Hiro Toyota
International marriage:: marriage between different nationality
Intercultural marriage:: marriage between different culture
Interethnic marriage:::: marriage between different ethnicity
Interreligious marriage: marriage between different religion
Interclass marriage::::: marriage between different class
Intervalue marriage::::: marriage between different values
What else can we think of?
Hiro Toyota
Samuel R. Kaplan
>>Man, you are really diligent aren't you? For all the wrong reasons,
>>however. No, this is not all about race. I am trying to get a FAQ
>>started and those were the only things I could think of at the time.
Why not wait until some of the questions are Frequently Asked
Questions before writing a FAQ. Otherwise all you have are a OAQ
(Once Asked Questions).
--
*************************************************************************
Sam Kaplan 804 982 5819
University of Virginia 804 982 5524 FAX
Center for Public Service kap...@virginia.edu
Steve Frampton
: Why not wait until some of the questions are Frequently Asked
: Questions before writing a FAQ. Otherwise all you have are a OAQ
: (Once Asked Questions).
That will come in time. The initial FAQ will help newcomers find out
what the group will be for. This approach is recommended right in the
guidelines for creating a new group, so that's what I'm doing.
Thanks...
Bryan Wu
>Bryan Wu (b...@panix.com) wrote:
>: Hey, you're the one who came up with the FAQ questions, right? If so,
>: then how about you dealing with cultural issues rather than "if one parent
>: is black and the other Asian, then what will the kid be?"
>
>Then I reiterate what I said before, STOP WHINING AND START SUBMITTING.
>
>And Bryan, I know you too well. You weren't asking a simple question, you
>were trying to stir things up. I wonder who is the real a$$hole here.
You? I asked a serious question. If this is how you handle such questions,
then that's your problem.
Bryan
Bryan Wu
>> Yes, it is a stupid reason. How could you be so narrow minded and self-
>>serving? Did it ever occur to you that there are cultural factors that have
>>nothing to do with race that can cause major problemin a relationship? Just
> ^^^^
>>because the guy who posted the sample questions only mentionedblack/white
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>relationships doesn't mean that that's all that will be discussed on the group.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Religion, language, national origin; all will come into play. And let's not
>
>shortest attention span. Re-read what the underlined text from my original
>post and compare it to your posts. Christ, Bryan, sometimes it seems like you
>suspend rational thought just to prolong an argument....
> -phil
Ok, I read it again. I still say the same thing. Put your money where
your mouth is. I'll judge you by your actions, not your words. If you want
to discuss culture, then how about you suggest a FAQ that tackles those
issues. Otherwise, looking at the proposed FAQ questions, you're simply
talking race issues. Is that clear enough for you, phil?
Bryan
R3...@vm1.cc.uakron.edu
> ^^^^
>>because the guy who posted the sample questions only mentionedblack/white
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>relationships doesn't mean that that's all that will be discussed on the group.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Religion, language, national origin; all will come into play. And let's not
>
> I'm convinced now, Bryan. Either you can't read, or you have the world's
>shortest attention span. Re-read what the underlined text from my original
>post and compare it to your posts. Christ, Bryan, sometimes it seems like you
>suspend rational thought just to prolong an argument....
> -phil
Ok, I read it again. I still say the same thing. Put your money where
your mouth is. I'll judge you by your actions, not your words. If you want
to discuss culture, then how about you suggest a FAQ that tackles those
issues. Otherwise, looking at the proposed FAQ questions, you're simply
talking race issues. Is that clear enough for you, phil?
Bryan
Why should I submit to the FAQ list? As of now, I DON'T HAVE ANY PROBLEMS
OR QUESTIONS! I AM CONTENT! When I have one, I will post to the group when
it is created and ASK one. The original FAQ was written off of the top of one
guy's head just to make a point, not to spell out all of the planned topics
to be discussed on the new newsgroup. Why is it that your mind is so limited
that you're having such a hard time grasping this? Are you so incapable of
independant thought that you need every option spelled out to you before you
can make a rational decision? It doesn't MATTER whether or not I want to
discuss other cultures. If YOU feel that the sample FAQ missed something, ADD
TO IT! If YOU have some deep-seated cultural problem that desperately needs
answering, YOU ask it! Do I have to spoon feed this to you one step at a time
or do you think you've grasped the concept now? I'm not the only one to tell
you this, and it's such a simple concept. What's the problem here?
I swear, Bryan, you DO suspend rational thought to prolong an arguement.
You must. I read your other posts and at times you SEEM intelligent. But the
rest of the time it seems like you argue just for the sake of arguement.
-phil
D Lamptey
We can choose to have intercult and/or interracial and/or mixed.
The *vast* majority of interracial relationships have an intercultural
strand, and some intercultural relationships have a racial dimension
as well. Most of us will have cultural and racial (given the choice) in
our .newsrc. There will most likely be a hell of a lot of cross-posting
from inter-c to inter-r. A lot of people get pissed off by that.
That is why I was more keen on mixed. Hell, if there is mixed, cultural, and
racial, I will read all of 'em! :)
(I will have to deal with the cross-posting somehow)...
(someone must have said what I just did before!!
D Lamptey
>differnces"? Look deeply enough and you will find the issues are more
>cultural than racial.
>
True in a lot of cases. But when for example you go to a place, and you/your
partner is treated differently on account of skin colo(u)r, the racial
dimension sure does come surging out of the depths. And this situation can
arise with relationships that are relatively similar in cultural outlook or
background..
Derr...
Brian L. Robinson
While the argument may seem trivial in relation to the net, it is a symptom
of a larger problem, that of racism. It is racism to assume that interracial
relationships are going to be intercultural as well. It is a natural
extension to assume that creating soc.couples.intercultural and then using it
in part to discuss interracial relationships is racism. I for one am not going
to criticize Bryan for reacting so strongly to racism. If the two are to be
grouped together, I think an earlier suggestion was excellent, to call it
soc.couples.mixed.
David Dyer-Bennet
>While the argument may seem trivial in relation to the net, it is a symptom
>of a larger problem, that of racism. It is racism to assume that interracial
>relationships are going to be intercultural as well. It is a natural
>extension to assume that creating soc.couples.intercultural and then using it
>in part to discuss interracial relationships is racism. I for one am not going
>to criticize Bryan for reacting so strongly to racism. If the two are to be
>grouped together, I think an earlier suggestion was excellent, to call it
>soc.couples.mixed.
If two people of different races *don't* have different cultures, what
would there be to discuss about the relationship between them? Racial
differences in body part sizes, or what?
--
David Dyer-Bennet Network Systems Corporation
d...@network.com Brooklyn Park, MN (612) 424-4888 x3333
d...@tdkt.kksys.com My postings represent at most my own opinions.
v1.01 GAT d? -p+@ c++++ l u++(--) e-(*) m++(*) s+/+ n@ h---(++) f++(?) !g w+++ t- r x*(?)
R3...@vm1.cc.uakron.edu
bl...@beech.cs.Virginia.EDU (Brian L. Robinson) writes:
>
The name was voted on, sci won, live with it. There's really no reason to make
such a Federal issue out of this, especially if you agree with the idea behind
the newsgroup. Truth be told, I like the name scm better too, but I'm not
going to cry in my milk about it, and I'll read sci all the same....
-phil
Brian Odom
>In article <CEDzE...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
>bo...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Brian Odom) writes:
>
>>
>>In <16C5D85...@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU> R3...@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU writes:
>>
>>>In article <CEDCM...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
>>>bo...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Brian Odom) writes:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>In <CEA0I...@knot.ccs.queensu.ca> 2843600@jeff-lab@queensu.ca (Steve Frampton) writes:
>>>>
>>>>>Bryan Wu (b...@panix.com) wrote:
>>> Yes, it is a stupid reason. How could you be so narrow minded and self-
>>>serving? Did it ever occur to you that there are cultural factors that have
>>>nothing to do with race that can cause major problemin a relationship? Just
>>>because the guy who posted the sample questions only mentionedblack/white
>>>relationships doesn't mean that that's all that will be discussed on the group.
> I was bothered because you said that you would vote down a group with well
>meaning applications and intentions solely because you didn't like the name.
>Just what do you find misleading about the name?
Everything. Must I mention it again one more time?
Intercultural != Interracial.
I think Bryan Wu put it best...
Why call a frog a duck, when you're referring to frogs?
Second of all, I'm not voting down the group -- I'm simply not voting.
There is a difference between saying "no" and saying "no comment".
Bryan Wu
What he said. :-)
Bertil Jonell
>Why call a frog a duck, when you're referring to frogs?
Because there were enough whiners on the group news.groups to bully through
calling the frog 'duck'.
-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
exercise for your kill-file."
Bill Lambert
=> While the argument may seem trivial in relation to the net, it is a symptom
=> of a larger problem, that of racism. It is racism to assume that interracial
=> relationships are going to be intercultural as well.
Bull poop. It is statistically likely that either interracial or
intercultural marriages have a component of the other contained within.
At the core of such a discussion group, I would expect that most people
would be aware of this.
=> It is a natural
=> extension to assume that creating soc.couples.intercultural and then using it
=> in part to discuss interracial relationships is racism.
What about creating s.c.a.a, and using it in large part to discuss
interracial relationships? If one is racist, then the other is.
=> I for one am not going
=> to criticize Bryan for reacting so strongly to racism. If the two are to be
=> grouped together, I think an earlier suggestion was excellent, to call it
=> soc.couples.mixed.
No matter which name is picked, the content will likely be similar.
I wouldn't criticize Bryan for reacting to racism either... when it
is there. One might suppose that discussion of racial issues could
serve to combat racism rather than to propagate it. Some people won't
even allow the difference.
- Bill Lambert
Joe Foster of Borg
["interracial" vs "intercultural" flamewar deleted]
> If two people of different races *don't* have different cultures, what
> would there be to discuss about the relationship between them? Racial
> differences in body part sizes, or what?
Think it through. Take your time. Here are a few hints, however,
to get you started:
Your rich grandparents who threaten to disown you for being seen
in public with a [insert exceedingly ugly, bigoted epithet here]
gigolo/pimp/whore/slut/whatever. (My grandparents had trouble
believing that non-Western Europeans were even *human*!) Hostile
glares from total strangers when you walk down the street holding
hands. Your SO's less than understanding parents. *Your* less
than understanding parents. And, if your community happens to be
graced by the presence of skinhead gangs, a much higher chance of
getting a boot or ten to the head. Maybe a chance to see your own
intestines up close to, ahh, boot.
Are we having fun yet?
--
Joe Foster
j...@bftsi0.uucp
Johan Van Camp
|>
|> of a larger problem, that of racism. It is racism to assume that interracial
|> relationships are going to be intercultural as well. It is a natural
|> extension to assume that creating soc.couples.intercultural and then using it
|> in part to discuss interracial relationships is racism. I for one am not going
|> to criticize Bryan for reacting so strongly to racism. If the two are to be
|> grouped together, I think an earlier suggestion was excellent, to call it
|> soc.couples.mixed.
|>
Jesus Christ, who cares what it's called ? Obviously everyone knows what this
group is about ! There are some people who experience serious difficulties
due to the fact that their partner just happens to ge of a different origin
and all you people do is whine about the friggin' *name* of the group...
Do you guys think you're interesting or what ? I suggest you start talking
about what REALLY matters in this group. Thanks.
--
Johan Van Camp
vc...@wins.uia.ac.be
Brian Odom
>Jesus Christ, who cares what it's called ? Obviously everyone knows what this
>group is about ! There are some people who experience serious difficulties
>due to the fact that their partner just happens to ge of a different origin
>and all you people do is whine about the friggin' *name* of the group...
>Do you guys think you're interesting or what ? I suggest you start talking
>about what REALLY matters in this group. Thanks.
I care what it's called. If the majority voted for interracial, then let it
be that way. If the stupid net will just change the name, then I think that
will make *everyone* happy. Until then, we'll just argue. I wonder if the net
is listening now...
--
bto
Bertil Jonell
>I care what it's called. If the majority voted for interracial, then let it
>be that way.
And the majority *did* vote for interracial, but due 'net.gerrymandering'(1)
it lost with a slight margin.
(1) The straw poll had two different choises for interracial, one where
intercultural was explicitely included in the FAQ and one where it wasn't.
Together they had a significant majority, but since they were split...
>bto