giving/selling arms.
Oliver Seely
that he has supported the lifting of the arms embargo against Bosnia
for nearly a year, implying that things would not be in such bad
shape there if the Bosnian muslims had adequate firepower.
Though this message is clearly slanted, I have no satisfactory
alternative to offer. I'm simply troubled by the idea of arming
both sides to the teeth. Maybe we ought to try it out in south-
central Los Angeles, Detroit and Newark first.
Oliver
Mustafa Chowdhury
In the context of Senator Biden's statement, I have a question
for you. Do you feel that indifference to the genocide in Bosnia
is morally superior than to supporting it?
Mustafa
Daniel M Renna
This unfortunately is not a moral judgement to be grounded in life and
death...it is purely one of political science. The US cannot take sides
in the Bosnian conflict solely out of the fact that the entry of the US
into the Balkans is not in American national interest.
The pictures of concentration camps and the like coming back from the
former Yugosalvia are thoroughly apalling, yet the world finds itself in a
situation in which nothing can be done without risking the lives and the
security of members of any third country. The conflict is on the EC's
doorstep, yet no sides can be taken: it is not clear who are the "good
guys" and who are the "bad guys". If the Moslems are being exterminated,
where are their nearly one billion coreligionists? Why don't Palestinians
take a break from their killing of innocent Israelis and direct some of
their violence upon the Serbs?
Daniel Renna
Columbia University
New York, NY
Oliver Seely
From your point of view, is an arms embargo, air drops of food
and medicine and daily confrontations by U.N. relief workers
with Serbian irregular forces indifference?
Oliver
Mustafa Chowdhury
I feel that an arms embargo that is EFFECTIVE only against Bosnian Muslims
is NOT indifference, but tacit support for the genocide.
Mustafa
Phil Gerdes K-State Univ.
>I feel that an arms embargo that is EFFECTIVE only against Bosnian Muslims
>is NOT indifference, but tacit support for the genocide.
Let me see if I've got this streight.
1. It's not right the USofA sells arms.
2. It's not right the USofA has an arms embargo to not sell arms.
It seems to me the USofA is damned if they do and damned if they don't.
If it's a no win kind of a deal then the USofA should sell arms to
whoever can purchase them but the USofA should not promote the use of
arms. Of course if the USofA can sell arms to whoever wants them I guess
it's ok for North Korea to sell arms to whoever wants them too.
Who is worse, the arms seller or the arms user? If no one used them
then there would be no way to sell them, or no market for them.
-Phil--------------PHILG@KSUVM----------"Phir Milengay."-------------
All I ask for is an opportunity to prove that money doesn't buy
happiness."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Tschuess! Sayounara! Tchau! Ahoj! Tot Ziens! Ciao! Shalom! Adios!
Hoscakal! Dovidjane! Kwaheri! Zhai jian! Ahnnyung! Sampai Jumpa Lagi!
Aloha! Farvel! Sawaddee! Do zvidanya! Namaste! Do widzenia! Naegemist!
Vi ses igen! Naekemiin! Adieu! Viszontlatasra! Vaarwel! Vale!
Mustafa Chowdhury
When I wrote INDIFFERENCE, I didn't have the arms embargo in mind. Rather,
I thought that your COMPARISON OF THE GENOCIDE IN
BOSNIA WITH GANG FIGHTS IN L.A. reflects INDIFFERENCE.
Mustafa
Mustafa Chowdhury
> ... If the Moslems are being exterminated,
-------
>where are their nearly one billion coreligionists? ...
>
>
>Daniel Renna
>Columbia University
>New York, NY
Daniel
Is it possible to think "human beings" are being exterminated?
Mustafa
Daniel M Renna
> All I ask for is an opportunity to prove that money doesn't buy
> happiness."
People who make comments like this have obviously never gone shopping,
or just don't know the right places in which to do so.....
> Tschuess! Sayounara! Tchau! Ahoj! Tot Ziens! Ciao! Shalom! Adios!
> Hoscakal! Dovidjane! Kwaheri! Zhai jian! Ahnnyung! Sampai Jumpa Lagi!
> Aloha! Farvel! Sawaddee! Do zvidanya! Namaste! Do widzenia! Naegemist!
> Vi ses igen! Naekemiin! Adieu! Viszontlatasra! Vaarwel! Vale!
Is there something wrong with English(not to mention Swahili)!?!
Daniel M Renna
> -------
> >where are their nearly one billion coreligionists? ...
> >
> >
> >Columbia University
> >New York, NY
>
> Is it possible to think "human beings" are being exterminated?
>
> Mustafa
You haven't answered my question, though. Why is it ALWAYS the US or the
Europeans who have to put themselves on the line, risk their national
security for a cause they really don't believe in(it's not like Bosnians
aren't killing Serbs) for people with which they have very little in common?
Again I ask where all the Moslems are from Turkey to Libya to Iran to
Indonesia...Why don't they intervene?
Daniel
Oliver Seely
My original posting about lifting the arms embargo was triggered by
a suspicion that to do so would result in an increase in the
number of people who are killed daily.
I compared it, perhaps unfairly, to arming everyone in
south-central L.A., which I also feel would result in an increase
in the number of deaths each day due to the use of firearms.
In that sense I feel that Joseph Biden's idea to lift the
arms embargo was ill-conceived and that to execute it would
be ill-advised.
Oliver
Mustafa Chowdhury
A balance of power often stops wars and killings.
Mustafa
BILAL YOUSUF
GETTING THE ARMS THEY NEED TO DEFEND THEMSELVES IS A CRIME AND INFACT I
THINK THIS WAS AN INTERNATIONAL CONSPIRACY AGAINST THOSE MUSLIMS. THE IS
WATCHING THE ERRADICATION OF A NATION AND DOING NOTHING ABOUT IT, WELL
MAYBE I AM WRONG, THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT, THEY MAKING SURE
MUSLIMS CAN NOT DEFEND THEMSELVES. HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF THE WORLD HEAVY-
WEIGHT BOXIN CHAMP WAS UNJUSTLY BEATING YOU AND YOUR FAMILY UP AND YOUR
NEIGHBORS STOOD AROUND TO MAKE SURE YOU COULDN'T GET SOMTHING TO DEFEND
YOURSELF WITH?
BILAL YOUSUF
BILAL YOUSUF
INNOCENT AMERICANS TO REMOVE ONE DICTATOR AND REINSTALL THE ORIGINAL ONE?
THE UNITED STATES INSTITUTED ITSELF AS THE PROTECTOR OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND
JUSTICE IN THE WORLD, IT SHOULD RESPOND EQUALLY WHETHER THE DEAL IS PROFIT-
ABLE OR NOT.
BILAL YOUSUF
BILAL YOUSUF
IN THIS CASE IT IS CALEAR WHO THE "BAD GUYS" ARE. YOUR COMMENTS SIMPLY
INDICATE YOUR IGNORANCE OF WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE WORLD. DON'T BE FOOLED,
THE US DOES HAVE AN INTEREST IN WHAT IS HAPPINING IN BOSNIA, OBVIOUSLY YOU
CAN NOT SEE WHAT IT IS. THE WORLD IS UNITED WHEN IT COMES TO FIGHTING MUSLIMS
IN FACT STATED AMERICAN FORIGN POLICY, FOR ALONG TIME, HAS BEEN TO PREVENT
THE ESTABLICHMENT OF ANY MUSLIM COUNTRY ANY WHERE IN THE WORLD. IF MUSLIMS
WERE FREE TO GO HELP THEIR BROTHERS IN BOSNIA THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN THERE, BUT
PLEASE DON'T SHOW YOUR IGNORANCE AGAIN BY ASKING "WHO IS STOPPING THEM?".
AND IN REGARD TO YOUR INNOCENT ISRALIS, YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE
NONE. THOSE SO CALLED INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE OCCUPIERS AND THE LAWFUL OWNERS OF
THE LAND HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO DEFEND THEMSELVES ANY WAY THEY CAN.
BILAL YOUSUF, CSULA.
Zahir Ahmed
has already made sure and it is done.....Even the police do not dare go
on foot patrol in those parts...
Zahir
Zahir Ahmed
You ask "where are the one billion coreligionists" implying that the
moslems should do something about it....
I am not a moslem but do you know that every weapon being used in the
world today, from a handgun to an automatic to ammunition to
atomic weapons to nuclear weapons were/are invented by non moslems...
Moslems and Islamic societies are incapable of producing such weapons...
However, We, mostly the west (incidently the coloring is white), has
readily invented, produced, and sold the weapons that are being used in
killings everywhere including Bosnia...
And Daniel, in the new worl order, we are the king.... we give the
orders... where possible (including Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the Emirateson)
we ensure that moslems are ruled by our puppets...we support their
leaders.... We also demonstrated that where convenient we will intervene in
fights among the moslems (Kuwait/Iraq) or provide weapons to both sides
(Iran/Iraq war)....
Zahir
Zahir Ahmed
You ask "where are all th countries from Turkey to Iran to Libya to
Indonesia.."
They are all in their place because we are constantly bringing the fact to them
that WE have the greater weapons and nothing can be done without the approval
from us.... We got our submarines in the oceans around Indonesia, our bases
in Turkey, we do militiary exercises in waters off the Libyan coast....
If you want the world to solve its own problems than the US ought to
keep its forces in the US, cut out the bullshit about promoting democracy
and human rights in the world....
The fact is that we kave elected to become king and as such, we have the
responsibility....
Zahir
Zahir Ahmed
Regarding Arms..."if noone used them, there would be no use for them"...
You must be from the NRA.... the logic seems to be that if people want
to use them then they should be allowed to sell them... Its what I
have been saying about being allowed to sell marijuana, coke, heroin
and so on.... Don't blame and punish the producer let the users
kill themselves....
Zahir
Zahir Ahmed
No, I was not joking..... Human beings are not superior to animals and
intelligence is not necessarily a plus.... Animals act when they need
something.... Humans use intelligence to destroy the environment, kill
animals and human beings whether they need to or not and by far, have
done more damage to this earth than any animal.....
We have to judge by the entire human species....and by most standards
humans come out poorer....
Humans have intelligence (I wonder about that!) and they have an EGO...
the latter makes them conceited enough to think they are superior and the
intelligence makes then rationalize destruction....
Zahir
Zahir Ahmed
Balance of power stops killing?????????
Then the idea should be to take away the arms from both and not the
other way around!!!!
If a drunken man comes to fight a sober man, your idea would be to make
the sober man drunk to even the fight....
Zahir
Oliver Seely
What I had in mind in LA, Detroit and Newark was even more
draconian. Here in Lakewood, for example, we have a
Neighborhood Watch program, with a block captain. Neighborhood
Watch is set up to protect residents from household thefts
and other crimes. It is primarily a mechanism for neighbors
to get to know each other; urban living in the U.S. is
terribly anonymous -- next-door neighbors often don't know
each other except perhaps to say "Good Morning" and "Good
Evening", if that. So from time to time all the people who
are in a NW program under one block captain gather together
at one person's house and exchange pleasantries, look each
other in the eye, swap gossip, and learn, from the block
captain, how many thefts occurred recently. Everyone pledges
a redetermined effort to be more watchful. By and large,
I'm told, the program has been very successful. O.K., enough
introduction.
Implied in my tongue-in-cheek suggestion that the U.S. supply
arms to the "other side" in LA, etc., was that everyone who
does not now own a gun, like me, be supplied with, say, an
M-16 rifle, and under the direction of the block captain be
taught how to use it and to keep it in working condition.
The NRA, contrary to what Zahir states, has NOT done this.
It is NOT a done thing. But you can be sure that Zahir is
right in saying that the NRA would probably support the
concept. My feeling is, though I don't know it for a fact,
is that the NRA is allied hand and glove with small arms
manufacturers in the U.S. Their position has always been
(correct me, folks, if I have it wrong) that if everyone
in the U.S. were armed and knew how properly to use their
guns, there would be fewer injuries and deaths from firearms.
To their credit, and considering the perversity of human
nature, I have to admit that perhaps the NRA is right on
this matter.
The direction from which I am coming on this issue is that
I'm not interested in owning a gun -- I feel more unsafe
with one than without one (I might absent-mindedly shoot
off my foot); but, and this is my main point, I don't want
to continue to live in an armed camp. I want to challenge
the Supreme Court to make an interpretation of the Second
Amendment to the Constitution on the matter of an individual
having an unrestricted right to own and to operate firearms.
Should such an interpretation be in the direction of such
an unrestricted right, I would then want to support the
adoption of a new amendment which would repeal the Second
Amendment and to limit the ownership of firearms specifically
to a "well-regulated" militia (The National Guard). That
was the direction from which I was coming. Sorry for not
having made that clear, but I knew it would take a while
to compose the thoughts.
As for the connection of these thoughts with Bosnia/Hercegovina,
maybe the wholesale distribution of arms to all those
who are now unarmed would cut down on the atrocities. But
I for one doubt it.
You can be certain though that the arms manufacturers and
dealers of the world would be delighted.
So as not to leave anything to doubt, let me say that I
agree philosophically with many of the things that have
been posted by Zahir and Mustafa on the subject of arms,
arms dealers and Bosnia/Hercegovina. But I'm also sympathetic
to the views of Laurence Eagleburger who said months ago
that until there is anyone in the former Yugoslavia who
wants to stop fighting, we ought to avoid getting involved.
My most recent issue of "Amnesty Action", put out by Amnesty
International, says that although the Muslim groups have
suffered the greatest number of atrocities so far, no group
is innocent. There are evidently a lot of people over there
intent on leveling the score based upon grievances arising
from many ancient hatreds.
Oliver
Zahir Ahmed
It always amazes me that the rest of the world buys the crap americans do
not..... The US does not consider itself the protector of human rights and
justice in the world... It just says so.... Americans know it but everyone
else including immigrants and international students in the US buy it.
REPEAT "n" TIMES..... The US only takes action for its self interest which
is MONEY, POWER, MONEY, POWER, MONEY,.........nth degree.....
and when you have learned the lesson, stop bitching......
Zahir
Zahir Ahmed
The US weapons industry/Pentagon has lost its friend the USSR... In the
name of USSR, they used to get tons and tons of $$ from the American
treasury.... Now they are looking for a new friend and its the Muslim
world..By making muslims sound horrible and terrifying, they can continue
to get billions of $$$ and the O.K. to sell arms and weapons...
Don't be upset or conceited enough to believe that the US and the West are
anti-muslims or anti Islam.... just understand that they need an excuse and
unfortunately, the excuse they have chosen is Islam....
Zahir
Mustafa Chowdhury
Disarming both sides will be OPTIMAL.
However, disarming only one side is NOT BETTER (in terms of human
sufferings) than no disarming at all.
Mustafa