Vowel Raising Before Nasals
tushar%ZAPHOD...@vtvm2.cc.vt.edu
>of [E] to [I] before nasals in the U.S. South (as in tin/ten)? There's
>a little bit of info on the history of it in an article in the current
>issue of -American Speech-.
> ...
> --Natalie (may...@ra.msstate.edu)
'Raising of [E] to [I] before nasals' ! Hah ! A highly innocuous way to
describe a thing, I must say ! Trying to make out as if Americans really
let out some sort of absolutely pure vowels when they speak !
Every vowel I have heard for months now is unfit to be called a vowel !
It's a monstrous complex of three or four ! When it comes to diphthongs
(is that the right word ?) the situation gets out of hand ! The jaw
slips and tongue is sprained trying to change the shape of the mouth
while unchesting seven or eight vowels in rapid succession !
Raising [E] to [I], is it ? More like fine-tuning the seventh harmonic,
in my opinion !
tushar
LL23000
> It's a monstrous complex of three or four ! When it comes to diphthongs
> (is that the right word ?) the situation gets out of hand ! The jaw
> slips and tongue is sprained trying to change the shape of the mouth
> while unchesting seven or eight vowels in rapid succession !
>
> Raising [E] to [I], is it ? More like fine-tuning the seventh harmonic,
> in my opinion !
>
> tushar
Tushar--
Have you ever heard an Australian speak?! They INVENTED diphthongs!
By the way, I have heard that the University of Chicago is where the
linguists' habit of celebrating Diphthong Day (sometime in February; I
forget) started. Maybe you should find out about this--you could be
their guest speaker!
Karen
Natalie Maynor
> describe a thing, I must say ! Trying to make out as if Americans really
> let out some sort of absolutely pure vowels when they speak !
What's an absolutely pure vowel? Didn't Chris say something about a
continuum recently (in a different context)? Unlike consonants, vowels
slide around on a sort of continuum.
> It's a monstrous complex of three or four ! When it comes to diphthongs
> (is that the right word ?) the situation gets out of hand ! The jaw
> slips and tongue is sprained trying to change the shape of the mouth
> while unchesting seven or eight vowels in rapid succession !
That's why we in the South speak more pleasantly than those in other
parts of the country. We've gotten rid of one ugly diphthong -- the
[aI]. Ok, so we've added some others. But the ones we've added aren't
*really* diphthongs -- they're more like separate syllables. Have I
ever told my story of wondering what the professor was describing when
he put the transcription [hEr] on the board in a class at the U of
Florida (most of Florida is not part of the South, btw)? It was ages
before I realized that he was referring to [h{aesc}{schwa}r].
> Raising [E] to [I], is it ? More like fine-tuning the seventh harmonic,
> in my opinion !
To most Southerners under the age of 75 or so, "ten" and "tin" are
homophones. So are "pen" and "pin." Now that I think about it, so
are "Ken" and "kin." Judith Primate: You have heard me pronounce
"Ken" on the phone. (Hoho! Worry all you want, Ken, about *what* I
was saying. :-) Then again, maybe the referent was a different Ken.)
Do I pronounce "Ken" the same way you do? You might not have noticed,
of course. But the answer would be no. Or maybe you did notice. I
usually notice if somebody says "git" for "get." Southerners do *not*
raise the [E] to [I] before non-nasal consonants.
Ok, you newcomers to the list are probably thinking, "Why is she going
on and on in responding to Tushar's humorous posting?" Don't worry.
It's not because I'm worried about anything Tushar said. It's because
I'm finding things to write about in order to postpone doing all kinds
of work that I don't want to do today.
--Natalie (may...@ra.msstate.edu)
ktw%HLWP...@vtvm2.cc.vt.edu
>homophones. So are "pen" and "pin." Now that I think about it, so
>are "Ken" and "kin." Judith Primate: You have heard me pronounce
>"Ken" on the phone. (Hoho! Worry all you want, Ken, about *what* I
>was saying. :-) Then again, maybe the referent was a different Ken.)
>Do I pronounce "Ken" the same way you do? You might not have noticed,
>of course. But the answer would be no. Or maybe you did notice. I
>usually notice if somebody says "git" for "get." Southerners do *not*
>raise the [E] to [I] before non-nasal consonants.
Oh, I don't particularly mind having my name taken in vain (:-).
But you're right...Ken does come out sounding a bit like I'm related
to someone...Kin. This may be a regionalism, but it's pretty far
reaching. My friends from North Carolina say it the same way you
do.
Kin
Graham Toal
>> 'Raising of [E] to [I] before nasals' ! Hah ! A highly innocuous way to
>> describe a thing, I must say ! Trying to make out as if Americans really
>> let out some sort of absolutely pure vowels when they speak !
>
>What's an absolutely pure vowel? Didn't Chris say something about a
>continuum recently (in a different context)? Unlike consonants, vowels
>slide around on a sort of continuum.
No - there's a very simple definition of a pure vowel (as opposed to
a diphthong) which is easily testable. Record the vowel and play
back multiple copies of it spliced together. If it sounds like
one looooooooong vowel, it is pure; it it warbles like a police
siren, it is a diphthong. I discovered this with a computer
program I have for speaking phonemes. It had a bug i /u/ - if
I said the word 'cut' it sounded vaguely like 'cute'. Took me ages
to work out why.
Graham
PS Natalie- enough displacement activity already! Get back to work!
Graham Toal
:of course. But the answer would be no. Or maybe you did notice. I
:>usually notice if somebody says "git" for "get." Southerners do *not*
:>raise the [E] to [I] before non-nasal consonants.
:
:Oh, I don't particularly mind having my name taken in vain (:-).
You mean your name is "git" too? :-)
G
Natalie Maynor
> a diphthong) which is easily testable. Record the vowel and play
I didn't realize we were talking about a pure vowel vs a diphthong. I
agree that they can be pretty easily distinguished, even without the
recording and splicing. A simple method with [aI] is to say the word
"my" and hold onto it for a long time. That separates Yankees from
Southerners pretty quickly.
> PS Natalie- enough displacement activity already! Get back to work!
I know.... I didn't get as much done yesterday as I needed to do.
Now I'm logging off to grade HOTEL tests. Lest that show up in the
next set of gleanings, I should point at that it's an acronym invented
by some of my students last year for History of the English Language.
--Natalie (may...@ra.msstate.edu)
Natalie Maynor
Hmmmmm. I don't think I want this one clarified. I'll choose to
interpret it my own way. :-)
Good night, y'all. I'm about to read some stuff that I meant to read
several hours ago. Phone messages are still welcome, preferably not
between 10:30 p.m. and 5:30 a.m. CST, but even then is ok -- I don't
have to say anything, after all -- that strange fast-talking person
who sneaked into my house and left that message on the answering machine
will do all the talking for me.
--Natalie (may...@ra.msstate.edu)
Bill Sjostrom
>(1) The idea that Southerners talk slowly is a myth. (2) I don't normally
I wasn't thinking of the country bumpkin slowness of sitcoms. What
surprised me is that in Natalie's message, she spoke faster than I'm
accustomed to hearing, say, New Yorkers speak, who speak very fast.
Nevertheless, I understand the point about the machine. I speak more
slowly on my machine than I normally do because I want to be
understood.
>
>For a Midwesterner, you really don't chew your r's all THAT much. ;-)
> --Natalie (may...@ra.msstate.edu)
I'm still not sure I understand what it means to chew an r.
Bill Sjostrom
Natalie Maynor
What accent? :-)
> surprised at how fast Natalie spoke,
(1) The idea that Southerners talk slowly is a myth. (2) I don't normally
talk as fast as that message implies. I made it as fast as possible to
keep people from having to wait too long for the beep. Actually, it's
the second message that I put on the machine. The first one was a little
slower and a little longer. I changed it after about a week because it
occurred to me that somebody who wanted to leave a message would want to
get to the beep as soon as possible.
> and charmed.
You've saved me from the doldrums I was sinking into from MM's note about
destroyed softness. THANX!!
Natalie Maynor
> you can get your quarter back knowing there are no new calls.
I haven't gotten to anything so fancy yet as checking calls from another
phone. Telephones aren't that important in my life. Now checking e-mail
from other systems while traveling is another matter entirely. Before too
long I'm going to start checking the route to RI and planning July's trip
according to best places for telnet access along the way. Yes -- those of
you going to the clambake will get to see my new toy (which won't be all
that new by then). But you won't get to see Bernard, alas. He's not
going.
--Natalie (may...@ra.msstate.edu)
who said a least 30 minutes ago that she was going to log off and
get to work...
MARTINA
Hmmm. If Natalie's inviting personal messages, I may have to call.
What was that number again? 1-900 what?
Marty
Natalie Maynor
> I didn't really expect Natalie to have that accent. Perhaps e-mail
But people around here say that I don't have much of a Southern accent!
I really don't compared to most native Mississippians.
> as everyone else in Halifax, and for some reason that startled me
> too. I'm not sure I can explain it.
What about the feeling of hearing young children speaking fluently a
language you're struggling hard to speak at all. That's an odd feeling
also. I mean it's obvious that young children in France are going to
speak French, but it's *still* an odd feeling.
--Natalie (may...@ra.msstate.edu)
tushar%ZAPHOD...@vtvm2.cc.vt.edu
>speak French, but it's *still* an odd feeling.
The oddest feeling of all is to hear children speaking fluent English
in their perfect American accents.
tushar
Graham Toal
:>It had a bug in /u/ - if
:>I said the word 'cut' it sounded vaguely like 'cute'. Took me ages
:>to work out why.
:>G
:
:I will take me ages too. Is it anything to do with pure/impure ? If it
:is, then post it immediately before I die of anxiety.
Sorry! I meant it took me ages to work out that this sound code was
wrongly pronouncing /u/ as /u@/ - presumably they cut it out of an
utterance incompetantly. You couldn't have known that!
G
Bob at play
Subject: Re: Vowel Raising Before Nasals
> ...
> (1) The idea that Southerners talk slowly is a myth.
Sorry Natalie, I have to call you on this one. My roots are Arkansas,
and when I call down there (phone or visit) I have to gear down significantly.
I also had to gear down when I moved from Maryland to Colorado, but Arkansas
is slower still. Probably has something to do with brain function during
90+ weather (degrees F and relative humidity).
> ...
>
> --Natalie (may...@ra.msstate.edu)
Bob White B...@MSCD.BITNET B...@ZENO.MSC.COLORADO.EDU
Frank Peters
<TA0WXS1%NIU.b...@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU> says:
> >> surprised at how fast Natalie spoke,
> >(1) The idea that Southerners talk slowly is a myth. (2) I don't normally
>
> I wasn't thinking of the country bumpkin slowness of sitcoms. What
> surprised me is that in Natalie's message, she spoke faster than I'm
> accustomed to hearing, say, New Yorkers speak, who speak very fast.
She has to talk that fast to have time to say so much.
Natalie Maynor
> a bit as though I'm dragging out the r, as in "Grrroverrrr" almost as
> if I'm growling a bit. A northeasterner might say "Grova", with the
> r almost removed. Is this what you mean?
EXACTLY!! You've described r-chewing perfectly!
--Natalie (may...@ra.msstate.edu)
Bill Sjostrom
>
>tired from all that chewing?
>
> --Natalie (may...@ra.msstate.edu)
I should be getting my math lecture done, but I don't want to give it
so I guess I'll think about chewing r's.
I'm parodying a bit, so bear with me. When I say "Grover", it feels
a bit as though I'm dragging out the r, as in "Grrroverrrr" almost as
if I'm growling a bit. A northeasterner might say "Grova", with the
r almost removed. Is this what you mean?
Bill Sjostrom
Bob at play
> Subject: Vowel Raising Before Nasals
>
> ... (Did you have to
> abandon your elephant when you moved to Chicago, Tushar?)
> --Natalie (may...@ra.msstate.edu)
Of course he did. How silly! Chicago isn't Republican.
Bob
Bill Sjostrom
>"wheel" and "field" except that in both cases I think I'm doing something
>like the [i] followed by a schwa: whee-ul, fee-uld. I hear pretty much
>"pure" vowels in "death" and "faith" -- [E] and [e] respectively.
> --Natalie (may...@ra.msstate.edu)
This midwestern boy hears the same thing as Natalie, our southern
lady.
Bill Sjostrom
Graham Toal
:almost all American vowels will warble if played over and over. Each
:'vowel' sounds to me like a diphthong, a diphthong sounds too complicated,
:at least a triphthong.
Try saying the Dutch word Leeuwen some time. At least a pentaphthong...
G
Natalie Maynor
phone machine woke him up out of a sound sleep!
Natalie Maynor
> slowly on my machine than I normally do because I want to be
> understood.
But once a machine answers a phone, does it really matter what the message
says? Isn't it just a matter of waiting for the beep?
On what are you and Rashmi (in previous message) basing your idea of the
speed of speech? Southerners sometimes use more syllables than Yankees
do in a particular word (and other times fewer syllables -- e.g.,
Missippi vs Mississippi). But the pace is not slower.
LL23000
> as everyone else in Halifax, and for some reason that startled me
> too. I'm not sure I can explain it.
I know what you mean--I took a Chinese history course from one Sam Chu
at Ohio State as an undergrad. Well, his full name was Samuel Houston
Chu. I could only get through this class by not looking at his face--he
sounded like he was from Texas, but looking at his face while he talked
would send me off into uncontrollable giggles. I see him every year at
conferences, now. It's embarrassing. But I can't help it.
Karen
Natalie Maynor
machine tapes and whether they can be played on something other than
an answering machine? (I got this device for Christmas and am not into
the fine points of it.) I foresee great fun when I bring the collection
of WORDS-L voices to the clambake.
I'll censor it, however, and delete anything personal. That's an
invitation for personal messages. :-)
--Natalie (may...@ra.msstate.edu)
Natalie Maynor
> and when I call down there (phone or visit) I have to gear down significantly.
I'm still waiting for something a bit more scientific than this description.
(And no, I don't have any acceptable "scientific" counter-evidence either,
but maybe I can find some.) The myth of slow talking is, I think, related
to the tendency to add syllables in certain words. The additional syllables
can be made up for in various ways, including rapid movement from word to
word.
--Natalie (may...@ra.msstate.edu)
Bill Sjostrom
>"hi." If I'm right about that (what the first word is, I mean), you'll
>hear something like [ha]. Note that that's really a [a], not the symbol
>for the vowel in "bah."
> --Natalie (may...@ra.msstate.edu)
I followed Natalie's suggestion. %ha% is what I heard. I confess to
being startled. I know that Natalie is from Mississippi, and I heard
a lot of Mississippi voices driving through the state. Nevertheless,
I didn't really expect Natalie to have that accent. Perhaps e-mail
eliminates the idea of accents. I recall a few years ago on my
honeymoon in Nova Scotia, I went into a store in Halifax. The clerk
was black. I grew up around urban blacks who have a particular
accent, and I am accustomed to the accents of middle class blacks and
tushar%ZAPHOD...@vtvm2.cc.vt.edu
>continuum recently (in a different context)? Unlike consonants, vowels
>slide around on a sort of continuum.
I must say here that I didn't use these words in any technical sense. By
'pure vowel' I just meant something like 'not composed of two vowels'.
Graham's test sounds like the thing which will distinguish. I'd bet that
almost all American vowels will warble if played over and over. Each
'vowel' sounds to me like a diphthong, a diphthong sounds too complicated,
at least a triphthong.
(When I said 'three or four vowels' I was exaggerating. But I wasn't just
joking, I say !)
What is funnier, the vowels in, say, 'wheel' and 'field' sound a bit
different to me. (They are diphthongs, of course.) We in India used to
look at dictionaries and pronounce accordingly. Obviously we came up
with colourless vowels. Being here is a revelation.
Even stranger, the diphthongs in 'wheel', 'field', 'death', 'faith' etc.
actually do sound like 'e-e', 'i-e', 'e-a', 'a-i', and so on. Is this
just an illusion ? If it isn't, then I begin to see why Chris is always
going on about spellings being 'logical' ...
tushar
tushar%ZAPHOD...@vtvm2.cc.vt.edu
>I said the word 'cut' it sounded vaguely like 'cute'. Took me ages
>to work out why.
>
>G
I will take me ages too. Is it anything to do with pure/impure ? If it
is, then post it immediately before I die of anxiety.
tushar
Never met a bandwidth I didn't like
>invitation for personal messages. :-)
What's your number?
-abh
CROSEN%BGSU...@vtvm2.cc.vt.edu
Well, I certainly am glad Natalie came through with a quick response
and saved Tushar's life. Had he died, it might have been the first
documented casualty resulting from list-negligence. I can imagine the
lawsuits that would have ensued. I hereby announce that I will not
be responsible for any such liabilities (which should, I think, be reserved
for the listowner and co-owners).
Marty
Men@Work
>P.S. I'm about to change the answering machine from 4 rings to 2 rings.
>I won't answer, but do say something wonderful or funny or thought-provoking
>or dirty or whatever if you call.
Even better--put it on "toll saver". Then if you get to the third ring
you can get your quarter back knowing there are no new calls.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
When ambidextrous people can't do it right, we do it left.
MacPhil / iqt...@indycms.bitnet / iqt...@indycms.iupui.edu
Men@Work
>> She has to talk that fast to have time to say so much.
>
>interpret it my own way. :-)
>
>Good night, y'all. I'm about to read some stuff that I meant to read
>several hours ago. Phone messages are still welcome, preferably not
>between 10:30 p.m. and 5:30 a.m. CST, but even then is ok -- I don't
>have to say anything, after all -- that strange fast-talking person
>who sneaked into my house and left that message on the answering machine
>will do all the talking for me.
> --Natalie (may...@ra.msstate.edu)
Perhaps an appropriate prank would be to get an auctioneer friend to
deliver a message for me....
Natalie Maynor
> almost all American vowels will warble if played over and over. Each
> 'vowel' sounds to me like a diphthong, a diphthong sounds too complicated,
> at least a triphthong.
Try calling (601)323-8384 and listening to the first word. I think it's
"hi." If I'm right about that (what the first word is, I mean), you'll
hear something like [ha]. Note that that's really a [a], not the symbol
for the vowel in "bah."
> Even stranger, the diphthongs in 'wheel', 'field', 'death', 'faith' etc.
> actually do sound like 'e-e', 'i-e', 'e-a', 'a-i', and so on. Is this
> just an illusion ? If it isn't, then I begin to see why Chris is always
> going on about spellings being 'logical' ...
Although I see the point of the Trager-Smith assessment of the tense
vowels as diphthongs (although I stick to the IPA symbols because I'm
too old to change), I can't see how the lax vowel in "death" can be
called a dipththong. I sort of see what you mean about the sounds of
"wheel" and "field" except that in both cases I think I'm doing something
like the [i] followed by a schwa: whee-ul, fee-uld. I hear pretty much
"pure" vowels in "death" and "faith" -- [E] and [e] respectively.
--Natalie (may...@ra.msstate.edu)
P.S. I'm about to change the answering machine from 4 rings to 2 rings.
Bill Sjostrom
>phone machine woke him up out of a sound sleep!
I don't know what was so funny either. I was startled by the accent,
surprised at how fast Natalie spoke, and charmed.
Bill Sjostrom