Paging the VSE community...

[Gabe Goldberg]

...and that's "paging" as in an airport, seeking to find people, not as
in virtual memory.

I had hardly any responses to my invitation:

I've written about mainframes for quite some time, for various magazines
and presently for the Destination z website. Folks on z Systems
community lists always chime in with valuable/interesting information,
experiences, and feedback.

Now I'm starting a piece for Dz on the VSE community. While I've never
run VSE (I'm mostly a VMer with some OS background) for decades I've
seen VSE and this community (in many ways similar to VM and its
community!) ride the ups and downs of IBM interest and support. Through
all that, VSE fans have remained steadfast, involved with and committed
to their platform of choice.

So I'd like to hear from list members on what the VSE community means to
you, how it's evolved, what you've contributed to and received from it,
how your IBM interactions have changed, major IBM and customer
contributors to recognize, past and current resources (WAVV, VM/VSE
Workshop, etc.) and how you think and hope it will evolve.

Please copy me directly so replies aren't buried in the list digest.
I'll work on this soon, so I'll appreciate quick comments. This isn't a
technical article. Rather, it's about what makes this a community vs.
just a bunch of people running the same operating system.

Thanks.

...though there's plenty of community activity/spirit on this list. As
there was for WAVV and other in-person settings. So I hope more people
will chime in about what makes VSE and the folks who run and support it
and support each others' use of it! Having been a VMer for decades, I've
seen how mutually supportive a tech community can be. And it's clearly
the same here -- sharing support, information, resources, experience,
wisdom, and (hardly least of all) friendship. Triumphs are praised,
problems are solved, people departing are bid farewell or collectively
mourned.

So please chime in -- as individuals, with your installations'
perspectives, from vendor (hello, vendors!) perspectives, etc.

Let's not have this article be titled, "This page intentionally left blank"!

--
Gabriel Goldberg, Computers and Publishing, Inc. ga...@gabegold.com
3401 Silver Maple Place, Falls Church, VA 22042 (703) 204-0433
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/gabegold Twitter: GabeG0


_______________________________________________
VSE-L mailing list
VS...@lists.lehigh.edu
https://lists.lehigh.edu/mailman/listinfo/vse-l

[David L. Craig]

On 16Jan20:0922-0500, Gabe Goldberg wrote:

> Let's not have this article be titled, "This page intentionally left blank"!

It might work better to discuss this on the list. Reading
other folks' posts can trigger fresh insights and invites
synergy into the room.
--
<not cent from sell>
May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly!

Dave_Craig______________________________________________
"So the universe is not quite as you thought it was.
You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then.
Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe."
__--from_Nightfall_by_Asimov/Silverberg_________________

[Gabe Goldberg]

OK, go for it -- you start.

I suggested that people copy replies to me, not necessarily that they
reply privately and not to list.

I had a few great replies and offers to answer questions but more
viewpoints/experiences is always better.

List discussion is fine; it's just that COPYING to me ensures I don't
miss replies in the list digest.

"David L. Craig" <dlc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 16Jan20:0922-0500, Gabe Goldberg wrote:
>
>> > Let's not have this article be titled, "This page intentionally
left blank"!

> It might work better to discuss this on the list. Reading
> other folks' posts can trigger fresh insights and invites
> synergy into the room.


--

Gabriel Goldberg, Computers and Publishing, Inc. ga...@gabegold.com
3401 Silver Maple Place, Falls Church, VA 22042 (703) 204-0433
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/gabegold Twitter: GabeG0

[David L. Craig]

On 16Jan21:1319-0500, Gabe Goldberg wrote:

> OK, go for it -- you start.

Well, I first encountered DOS on a Model 30 at computer
school. After graduating, I moved onto MVT for many years.
My first programming job introduced me to VSE on a couple
short contracts. Then there was a long spell (decades)
before I successfully interviewed to sysprog a shop running
VM/CMS/VSE/CICS on a couple Multiprise boxes that were
officially being migrated but practically that was moving
forward like pouring cold honey. However, those ancient
systems were no longer receiving IBM software support, and
upgrading was not permitted by management, so I really
didn't need to interact with the VSE folks. I stopped being
associated with that shop six years ago, to boot.

So I'm a poor choice to get this rolling. I have learned a
lot while subcribed to this list but never had much to
contribute that others here couldn't. I never got to a WAVV.
But as you pointed out, VSE folks are quite a community,
much like the VMers. Both have had their battles with IBM
Bad Ideas.

--
<not cent from sell>
May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly!

Dave_Craig______________________________________________
"So the universe is not quite as you thought it was.
You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then.
Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe."
__--from_Nightfall_by_Asimov/Silverberg_________________

[Lou Winston]

I am saddened but not surprised to learn of the anemic response to your "page to the VSE community".

Thanks to malignant neglect and outright vandalism, IBM has pretty much destroyed this once very popular operating system; that coupled with the general financial problems of third party software vendors has lead to a very dire situation for VSE. And that really is your story.

VSE today exists to support applications that were implemented 20+ years ago and that is about it. Sure IBM updates a portion of the code from time to time just so that shops running that software can continue to buy their latest hardware beyond that, IBM actually hobbles VSE by removing support for significant subsystems (Connect:Direct and MQSeries are two examples).

The best thing that could happen to VSE is for IBM to release the software to a consortium of users so they could provide the features deemed necessary in today's competitive business environment.

For further discussion, one source I would suggest you contact is Ken McMahon (kenmcm...@gmail.com). I spoke with Ken yesterday and he is trying to organize a user group meeting in Columbus, Ohio to meet sometime in April or May.

Ken as am I is very passionate about VSE and extremely discouraged at the current situation.


________________________________________
From: VSE-L <vse-l-bounces+lewinston=live...@lists.lehigh.edu> on behalf of Gabe Goldberg <ga...@gabegold.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:22 AM
To: VSE Discussion List
Subject: Paging the VSE community...

[Martin Truebner]

Gabe,

>> ..the anemic response...

I hesitated to answer - but Lou was pretty much on the point that i
would have made.... here is my addition

>> The best thing that could happen to VSE is for IBM to release the
>> software to a consortium of users so they could provide the features
>> deemed necessary in today's competitive business environment.

Yea- that would help VSE. It would not create any income for any of the
supporters of it. Everyone wants free additions and full blown
features.

Since IBM does not want that z/VSE is the kindergarten for
z/OS installations anymore, they might as well drop it completely. This
in favour of an option for a reduced (in functionality + price) z/OS
with add-ons to run z/VSE stuff unaltered. That way more of the z/VSE
users would remain in the mainframe world.
--
Martin

Pi_cap_CPU - all you ever need around MWLC/SCRT/CMT in z/VSE
more at http://www.picapcpu.de

[Ken McMahon]

Lou did forget a dot in my email.... It is ken.mc...@gmail.com or
Ken.m...@ztransformationgroup.com

[Tony Thigpen]

Even if IBM did not release the source, there is still a lot the
community can do. There are a lot of tools and OS extensions that are
out there in individual shops. Others have got ideas that can be created
using community collaboration.

I personally have several ideas for better things for VSE, but I don,t
have the time to do it. I also have other tools that are working, but
are not ready for prime time. I also have some stuff that I can't
release in source format, but might be able to release in object format.

Maybe the discussion should be how to facilitate community development
of extensions to VSE.

Tony Thigpen

[Mick Poil]

I don't think that Hursley will provide the source for CICS as there is a huge amount of intellectual property in there, and surprisingly, a lot of  the core code is extremely similar to CICS z/OS. Without control of that, I am not sure how you are going to incorporate all of the enhancements.

Ingolf's blog had a very recent entry where he was asking for RFEs. Why not take him up on it?

Mike

(The opinions expressed here are my own, and are not to be taken as official statements by IBM.)

[Lou Winston]

That is one of the beauties of this concept... the consortium wouldn't need source code for CICS any more than it would need source code for ZEKE, DYNAM, FAQS, Top Secret etc. As long as the software meets the needs of its users why re-invent the wheel?  Indeed it may want to ask IBM, what does a VSE based operating system need to support CICS version 6?

IBM's current operating system strategy has left a large number of serious functionality gaps in the VSE operating system -- CICS is not one of those.

One more thought... I wonder how many people are in a similar circumstance as I am - who started back in the 1970's or '80s with DOS/DOSVS etc. Have worked for the past 40+ years, coding Assembler and PL/1, COBOL and even C/C++ and are looking at retiring within the next few years and may not want to work 40+ hours a week but may want to contribute their time and talents to a cause that they are passionate about instead of sitting in their living rooms watching the snow fall.  Money would not necessarily be a big deal since we would have income from pensions and 401k's etc.

 

---

From: VSE-L <vse-l-bounces+lewinston=live...@lists.lehigh.edu> on behalf of Mick Poil <michael...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2016 5:28 AM
To: VSE Discussion List

Subject: Re: Paging the VSE community...

[Mick Poil]

There are very clever people out there, that is obvious when you consider software such as Hercules and the various open source projects.

But, thinking out loud about CICS VSE.

What about the issue of support? Based on what I can comment on, the majority of the CICS PMRs that we have worked on for some time are nothing to do with CICS defects, but are everything to do with other products (including VSE) and/or CICS applications. You can't see how many PMRs/SRs we deal with, but you can see how the number of APARs has dropped significantly in the last few years, and the gap between the two is continuing to grow. The PMRs/SRs are opened and end up with CICS Service because nobody at the customer end, nor perhaps within other IBM teams, has the expertise to do effective problem diagnosis. That can be for as simple (don't believe that!) a case as a storage violation, or a performance issue. I worked for several months last year, on and off, on just one CICS/batch performance PMR until I found the root cause - it was extremely obscure. Meanwhile, the problem showed no signs of going away. Needless to say, it was not CICS' fault. Now think about what would happen if we said "sorry, but you are on your own".

Emulating VSE is all very well, but that won't give you new CICS functionality unless you can make it completely transparent. CICS TS for z/OS has much more functionality, but that has required major internal design changes over a long period in time. It is also very dependent on z/OS-only APIs.

Also remember that you cannot buy or install CICS TS VSE outside of VSE itself if you are thinking of an alternative OS solution.

Summing up my thinking. To me, it would seem that you would need to get IBM to buy into it to be able to run CICS in a supported environment outside of IBM's VSE. Do you have the ability to influence the appropriate people in IBM to achieve that? Looking at things from a purely financial point of view, why would IBM help when the end result would be to lose part of a regular revenue stream?

(All of the above are my own personal thoughts and opinions, and are not to be construed, in any shape or form, to represent those of IBM itself.)

[Lou Winston]

I really don't want to make this into a big confrontation, so I this will be my last word on this (I promise).

1st, as far as PMRs etc. my experience has not been what you are stating.  On the contrary, IBM has been very helpful in providing diagnostic help for other products.  If IBM deems it necessary or advantageous it could even charge for this kind of service. With all the third party software out there, It's not like this is uncharted territory. 

2nd. No financial arrangements have been hypothesized.  Surely there could be licensing fees and other arrangements.  It would be interesting to see how hardware sales and service would increase if the VSE operating system became viable and attractive once again.  My recent experience indicates that there are a lot of shops not running VSE but could.

---

From: VSE-L <vse-l-bounces+lewinston=live...@lists.lehigh.edu> on behalf of Mick Poil <michael...@gmail.com>

Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2016 10:18 AM
To: VSE Discussion List
Cc: ga...@gabegold.com

Subject: Re: Paging the VSE community...

[Max Singley]

In my opinion, IBM has been very innovative and has made solid improvements to the VSE operating system for quite some time. A lot of issues have been caused by third party vendors abandoning VSE, but the sad truth is that there is a lot of competition for computer services at the price level VSE plays in and many solutions are readily available with a much lower skill set required to implement and maintain the products.

 

I wish I could personally thank all of the IBM VSE support folks who have hung in there and provided much needed enhancements and support.

 

Perhaps a more enthusiastic response to the original request would have been made if the requestor was a born and bred VSE guy ;)

 

Just my two cents,

Max E. Singley
Technical Services Project Leader
Alex Lee, Inc.
Email: max.s...@alexlee.com Tel: 828-725-4894

A responsive and reliable production environment doesn't just happen by accident.

 

[Edward M. Martin]

Hello Lou, and everyone else,

Columbus, Ohio used to be the hotbed of VM and VSE non-IBM products. It is a good place to have a user group.
Columbus State Community College was really hot with VM.

Edward M. Martin
Aultman Health Foundation
HealthQuest
330-363-9666
Internal EXT 39666

-----Original Message-----
From: VSE-L [mailto:vse-l-bounces+edward.martin=aultm...@lists.lehigh.edu] On Behalf Of Lou Winston
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2016 7:40 AM
To: VSE Discussion List

Subject: Re: Paging the VSE community...

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail (including the information it contains and attachments) is a business communication intended for the authorized use by the person who requested it, or for the authorized use by the intended recipient to perform an employment duty or business function. This e-mail may contain confidential, privileged, or proprietary information, including (but not limited to) Protected Health Information covered by the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). It also may be protected by the Electronic Communications Act. If you received this e-mail by mistake, either directly or inadvertently as a recipient on a copied or forwarded e-mail, promptly notify us by return e-mail. Destroy this e-mail, the information, and attachments you received by mistake. You must not print, use, forward, or disclose to any third party by electronic, written or oral means any information you received by mistake. We do not waive any privilege. We may take le
gal steps or other appropriate action, as needed, to protect the confidentiality and privilege of any information inadvertently disclosed.

[Tom Huegel]

In case you might have missed it, VM WORKSHOP now includes VSE sessions.

http://www.vmworkshop.org/

[Don Stoever]

Hello Group,
I happen to live here in beautiful but cold Columbus, Ohio and was
originally recruited to work at Goal Systems way back in 1987. It was my
understanding from old Goalies that they originally did not have their
own machine and used 3rd shift time on the Columbus State Community
College VSE mainframe.

Thank you,
Don Stoever
CSI TCP/IP for VSE Product Development
www.csi-international.com

[Lou Winston]

I'd be very much in favor of meeting in Columbus.... I visit that fine city about once a month anyway (I have a daughter living in New Albany)



________________________________________
From: VSE-L <vse-l-bounces+lewinston=live...@lists.lehigh.edu> on behalf of Don Stoever <don.s...@csi-international.com>
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2016 10:39 AM

[Tom Huegel]

IBM must have been doing something right or the old competition 'DOS' systems would still be around, i.e. RDOS and EDOS....

On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 10:39 AM, Max Singley <Max.S...@alexlee.com> wrote:

Improvements I’ve liked fairly recently in VSE has been the ability to add an additional extent to the POWER files during a warm start without disrupting the existing entries and formatted while POWER is running, the myriad of expanded POWER commands that have been added based on a current setting and other specifications, the NOPDS for running under Z/VM, movement of many functions from under the line to above the line, dynamic partitions, VSE connectors and associated clients, 64 bit virtual addressing, z/vse z/vm IP assist, 4096 RSA key support, FICON Express8s support, VSE install and support tapes available over the internet…it really just depends on the time frame from today on back. If IBM had been this supportive of VSE FROM the start, there’s no telling where VSE would be today as far as number of installations and businesses running it.

 

have fun,

Max E. Singley
Technical Services Project Leader
Alex Lee, Inc.
Email: max.s...@alexlee.com Tel: 828-725-4894

A responsive and reliable production environment doesn't just happen by accident.

 

From: VSE-L [mailto:vse-l-bounces+max.singley=alexl...@lists.lehigh.edu] On Behalf Of Lou Winston

Sent: Monday, January 25, 2016 1:10 PM
To: VSE Discussion List <vs...@lists.lehigh.edu>

Subject: Re: Paging the VSE community...

 

I agree that IBM VSE support is second to none in helping to solve problems (even with third party software). As far as making solid improvements in VSE name a few and be specific.

 

 

---

From: VSE-L <vse-l-bounces+lewinston=live...@lists.lehigh.edu> on behalf of Max Singley <Max.S...@alexlee.com>
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2016 8:50 AM
To: VSE Discussion List
Subject: RE: Paging the VSE community...

 

In my opinion, IBM has been very innovative and has made solid improvements to the VSE operating system for quite some time. A lot of issues have been caused by third party vendors abandoning VSE, but the sad truth is that there is a lot of competition for computer services at the price level VSE plays in and many solutions are readily available with a much lower skill set required to implement and maintain the products.

[Gabe Goldberg]

I'm glad you smiled when you said that. Just because I'm not a "B&B VSE
guy" doesn't mean I haven't watched VSE for decades -- and written
plenty about it before as a primo VM guest, before the Linux fad struck.
I always figured that besides being natural technology partners, VM and
VSE were too often in the same second-class mindset for IBM. So I'm glad
this thread picked up steam. ;-)

Max Singley <Max.S...@alexlee.com> said:

Perhaps a more enthusiastic response to the original request would have
been made if the requestor was a born and bred VSE guy ;)

--
Gabriel Goldberg, Computers and Publishing, Inc. ga...@gabegold.com
3401 Silver Maple Place, Falls Church, VA 22042 (703) 204-0433
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/gabegold Twitter: GabeG0

[Ken McMahon]

To clarify, I am going to recommend that the User Group meets inside.  Don's comment about the cold is valid!

Ken

[Tony Thigpen]

The economics of it just precludes IBM from doing everything we want to
enhance VSE. I think the VSE community as a whole can really get some
stuff done if we put our collective minds to it. Look what one person
(Pete Clark) did back in the days that brought our beloved operating
system forward. Together, we can do more.

I have been thinking of what would be a good project to start with.
Something that would be helpful to many and yet not something that would
have to be written from scratch. Something that corrects a weakness in
VSE that IBM just does not have the time or money to work on.

So, here is the proposal:

Personally, I think ICCF is *way* past it's prime and we need something
better.

So, as a group, let's port "The Hessling Editor" (AKA: THE) to VSE as a
CICS/TS transaction. THE is written in C and currently has ports for
MS-DOS, Windows, Linux, AIX, OS/2, VMS and even Amiga. So, the current
code is already a 'lowest common denominator' and should be easier to
port than some other projects.

Thoughts?


Tony Thigpen

[Stuart, David]

Tony,

Interesting idea. What 'resources' would one need to participate is such a project?


Dave


Dave Stuart
Principal Information Systems Support Analyst
Information Technology Services
County of Ventura, CA
805-662-6731
David....@ventura.org

-----Original Message-----
From: VSE-L [mailto:vse-l-bounces+david.stuart=ventu...@lists.lehigh.edu] On Behalf Of Tony Thigpen
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 9:38 AM
To: VSE Discussion List

[Tony Thigpen]

Good question.

I can actually provide one or more VSE test machines. I can also supply
a VM LPAR. All someone would need would be TN3270 access.

On the flip side, maybe we could approach Dignus about supporting the
project with their System/C so people could compile on their local machines.

Tony Thigpen

[Edward M. Martin]

Hello Tony,

Yes what do we need to do?

Edward M. Martin
Aultman Health Foundation
HealthQuest
330-363-9666
Internal EXT 39666

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail (including the information it contains and attachments) is a business communication intended for the authorized use by the person who requested it, or for the authorized use by the intended recipient to perform an employment duty or business function. This e-mail may contain confidential, privileged, or proprietary information, including (but not limited to) Protected Health Information covered by the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). It also may be protected by the Electronic Communications Act. If you received this e-mail by mistake, either directly or inadvertently as a recipient on a copied or forwarded e-mail, promptly notify us by return e-mail. Destroy this e-mail, the information, and attachments you received by mistake. You must not print, use, forward, or disclose to any third party by electronic, written or oral means any information you received by mistake. We do not waive any privilege. We may take le
gal steps or other appropriate action, as needed, to protect the confidentiality and privilege of any information inadvertently disclosed.

[Martin Truebner]

I like that idea (THE)

and i do like the Dignus idea- who approaches them?

Oh- and BTW I would be willing to work on it to get it running on a
current z/VSE - if (now watch this) the code is the HLASM-code that
Dignus emits (and not the original C).

I do believe that BSI has a Dignus C-compiler.....would it be okay
to take THE code and feed it through it and then use the HLASM code
for further development?

--
Martin

Pi_cap_CPU - all you ever need around MWLC/SCRT/CMT in z/VSE
more at http://www.picapcpu.de

[DeWayne Thomas]

On 01/26/2016 10:38 AM, Tony Thigpen wrote:

Personally, I think ICCF is *way* past it's prime and we need something better.

So, as a group, let's port "The Hessling Editor" (AKA: THE) to VSE as a CICS/TS transaction. THE is written in C and currently has ports for MS-DOS, Windows, Linux, AIX, OS/2, VMS and even Amiga. So, the current code is already a 'lowest common denominator' and should be easier to port than some other projects.

Thoughts?

Am I under-thinking this or would it be simpler to write a  librarian server to checkin/checkout modules from a VSE library to a workstation where any preferred native editor could be used?  One could also create a more complete client with edit/submit/etc. capabilities....Just a thought from a simple mind...

--

DeWayne Thomas
Senior Software Engineer

Velocity Software Inc.
Mountain View, CA 94041
Main: (650) 964-8867
Main: (877) 964-8867
DeW...@VelocitySoftware.com

---

[Tony Thigpen]

When I last looked at Rational Developer it was cost prohibitive.

And, last I looked, the only good mainframe Cobol plugin for Eclipse was
IBM's which is only available as part of RD for z. (Cobos has licensing
issues.)

Jim, I think were are also talking two different things. RD for z is for
way bigger projects than I was thinking about. VSE needs a good editor
that will directly edit LIBR members. (Or, if not in LIBR, some other
VSE based file system.) Editing JCL and minor changes to program source
is what I was envisioning As very few people are writing new
applications on VSE, they are just maintaining or adding minor
enhancements. Converting those projects to a non-VSE IDE platform is a
lot of work for so little gain.

We all know that ICCF has a lot of limitations. Some vendor products
(Bim-Edit, Vollie, Panvalet, Condor, etc.) have been used to get around
ICCF limitations, but even with those available, many shops still use
ICCF due to budget issues. My suggestion was that porting an XEDIT-like
editor to VSE would expand VSE for those shops where budget is a big
issue. For those with no money, they will have something better for VSE.
For those with shrinking budgets, it would be an option that might
display one of the commercial products and extend the life of the VSE shop.

That is my thinking, but I am open to more discussion Jim.

Tony Thigpen

Jim Elliott wrote on 01/26/2016 03:22 PM:
> Doing anything on CICS is the wrong direction. Full support for z/VSE
> with Rational Developer for z Systems would give a modern interface with
> the least development effort. You could probably write a Web based tool
> using the Connectors but it would be much more work.
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry - the most secure mobile device - via the Rogers
> Network
> *From:*DeW...@VelocitySoftware.com
> *Sent:*January 26, 2016 15:17
> *To:*vs...@lists.lehigh.edu
> *Subject:*Re: Expanding VSE (Was: Paging the VSE community...)

> DeW...@VelocitySoftware.com <mailto:DeW...@VelocitySoftware.com>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> <https://www.xing.com/companies/velocitysoftwaregmbh>

[Jim Elliott]

Tony:

I think RDz is licensed per user, but I have no idea what the charges are (now that I am retired I don't have access to that info!).

You could always ask Mark Hessling if he has a problem with a port, probably not. You would most likely have to work with the C code and there may be ASCII vs EBCDIC issues.

Would using the z/VSE Connectors and the z/VSE Navigator be an easier solution? You can edit files file Navigator (the examples use Notepad but I am sure that is tailorable) so maybe you could use THE on a workstation (with all the REXX scripting that comes with that)?

--

Jim Elliott

z Systems Consultant

email: jlell...@gmail.com

web: http://jlelliotton.blogspot.ca/

phone: 416-922-6691

cell: 416-527-0666

[Tony Thigpen]

Looking at the VSE community, I just don't see them moving toward the
off-platform via connectors solution. Too many moving parts that are
required to be up and running before you can do anything. Sometimes
being on-platform is much better.

Although I initially suggested THE under CICS, it would be a natural
follow-up extension to create a one user batch process for emergency
editing. On VSE-L, we also have the knowledge to create a multi-thread
VTAM (or even "BTAM", i.e. cuu based) front end if someone needed such.

Now, I am not adverse to split-platform development. I use a linux based
'make' process and Dignus-ASM for my VSE2PDF development. But, it was a
lot of set-up. (I use xedit-like THE for editing.)

Tony Thigpen

> *To:*vs...@lists.lehigh.edu <mailto:vs...@lists.lehigh.edu>

> Main: (650) 964-8867 <tel:%28650%29%20964-8867>
> Main: (877) 964-8867 <tel:%28877%29%20964-8867>
> DeW...@VelocitySoftware.com
> <mailto:DeW...@VelocitySoftware.com

> <mailto:DeW...@VelocitySoftware.com>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> <https://www.xing.com/companies/velocitysoftwaregmbh>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> VSE-L mailing list

> VS...@lists.lehigh.edu <mailto:VS...@lists.lehigh.edu>

> https://lists.lehigh.edu/mailman/listinfo/vse-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> VSE-L mailing list

> VS...@lists.lehigh.edu <mailto:VS...@lists.lehigh.edu>

> https://lists.lehigh.edu/mailman/listinfo/vse-l
>
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Elliott
> z Systems Consultant

> email: jlell...@gmail.com <mailto:jlell...@gmail.com>

> web: http://jlelliotton.blogspot.ca/
> phone: 416-922-6691
> cell: 416-527-0666
>
>

[Ken and Mary Meyer]

Probably the only requirement would be to make the changes

you make available as open source, but it depends on the

license used for the THE code.

Ken

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 2:08 PM, Tony Thigpen <to...@vse2pdf.com> wrote:

I believe that modifying the assembler out of a Dignus compiler would violate the open-source aspects of the original software, in this case THE.

Tony Thigpen

Martin Truebner wrote on 01/26/2016 02:45 PM:

I like that idea (THE)

and i do like the Dignus idea- who approaches them?

Oh- and BTW I would be willing to work on it to get it running on a
current z/VSE - if (now watch this) the code is the HLASM-code that
Dignus emits (and not the original C).

I do believe that BSI has a Dignus C-compiler.....would it be okay
to take THE code and feed it through it and then use the HLASM code
for further development?

[indust...@winwholesale.com]

"VSE-L" <vse-l-bounces+industrynews=winwhole...@lists.lehigh.edu> wrote on 01/26/2016 12:38:02 PM:
> So, as a group, let's port "The Hessling Editor" (AKA: THE) to VSE as a
> CICS/TS transaction. THE is written in C and currently has ports for
> MS-DOS, Windows, Linux, AIX, OS/2, VMS and even Amiga. So, the current
> code is already a 'lowest common denominator' and should be easier to
> port than some other projects.

> Thoughts?

        Why port an existing editor to VSE and have to deal with whatever limitations come with it (such as original programming language or licensing issues)?  Why not just start a SourceForge or Google GITHUB project and create one from scratch?  Yes, such a project from scratch won't initially be feature-rich but the beauty of a shared project is that features can always be added later.

        A basic free editor using the VSE libraries would be a valuable tool all in itself.

        I also agree that CICS-based may not be the best idea, either.  Yes, it makes it easier because CICS handles the terminal I/O and multiple sessions for you.  But an editor that works when CICS is down is more valuable (IMHO).  A while back one of the listers created a BTAM-based free editor (VSEDIT) that takes over the VSE console (IIRC).  Should be relatively easy to modify that to be able to run with its own terminal so that multiple people can each have their own edit session running in a small dynamic POWER partition class.  Or, perhaps even modify it for multiple session support so that only a single partition is required.

        I even have a REXX-based VSE library editor with my own user-written REXX function to handle channel-based full-screen 3270 terminal I/O.  However, I planned it as a single-user editor that could be used when both CICS and VTAM were down.  But that other lister I mentioned came out with theirs when I started talking about mine on the list.  Thus, I never finished my terminal I./O function to support a channel appendage routine to allow my REXX user function to wait for a response from the 3270 terminal.  So, if a REXX-based editor is desired, I could donate what I have as a starting point for a shared project.  I still see this as a single-user editor, though -- no multiple session support.  You guys may not see that the same way.

        Just some thoughts...

Sincerely,

Dave Clark

Winsupply Group Services
3110 Kettering Boulevard
Dayton, Ohio  45439  USA
(937) 294-5331



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[indust...@winwholesale.com]

"VSE-L" <vse-l-bounces+industrynews=winwhole...@lists.lehigh.edu> wrote on 01/27/2016 11:02:05 AM:
>         A basic free editor using the VSE libraries would be a
> valuable tool all in itself.

        Sorry, what I meant is:  A basic free full-screen editor using the VSE libraries would be a valuable tool all in itself.

[Tom Huegel]

Here is a BIG project.. How about 'virtualizing' zVSE to be able to run LINUX in a partition??

[Rich Smrcina]

Aside from the technical challenge, it would significantly increase the use of your CPs (which tend to be kneecapped for VSE workloads).

Also, this was attempted many years ago under z/OS and went nowhere.

--

Rich Smrcina

[Rich Smrcina]

John Hartmann had a wonderful little GCC cross compiler that would run in a Linux on z environment. The assembler output could be transferred to CMS and assembled there. He used a public domain library.

I was able to port PCRE to run under CMS and with some pipe wrapper code create by Rob we had a nice PCRE pipe stage. Rob also ported gzip to CMS (which he wrote about in his blog).

An environment like that for VSE would be a good step.

On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 11:35 AM, Jeffrey Barnard <bsi...@bsiopti.com> wrote:

How about 'virtualizing' zVSE to be able to run LINUX in a partition??

......

The other way around ... Run z/VSE on a Linux for z image. Or, maybe running z/VSE applications (E.g., batch programs) in a Linux for z image.

I am sure running z/VSE in a VM under KVM for z would be possible except for the IFL issue.

......

More realistically, if z/VSE has a modern C environment it would pretty easy to port hundreds if not thousands of applications to z/VSE.

So, creating a modern LE/C environment would be the first step.

Hmm.

Regards,
Jeff

_______________________________________________
VSE-L mailing list
VS...@lists.lehigh.edu
https://lists.lehigh.edu/mailman/listinfo/vse-l

--

Rich Smrcina

[L'Heureux, Paul]

“z/VSE in a VM under KVM”

 

EUREKA!

 

This makes sense to me.

 

Paul L’Heureux

Department of Corrections | Central Office | BIT

1920 Technology Parkway

Mechanicsburg, PA 17050

 

[Tony Thigpen]

Dave,

I actually envisioned eventually growing the editor as follows:
1) CICS based (to get it working)
2) Multi-user VTAM based
3) Single user batch based (non-VTAM cuu physical I-O)
4) Multi-user VTAM or physical I-O

Step one was just to get the editor ported. Step to was to remove the
CICS requirement. (It's normally easier to get VTAM up than CICS if
there are problems.) Step 3 was for IPL problems while step 4 was an
integration of of 2 and 3.

I was actually thinking of your help when it came to step 3 since you
had something like it already.

Since the discussion started, someone suggested that we start with a
Single session batch based but web-enabled. A simple web server in one
batch partition can create individual batch child processes using
GIVE/TAKE. Eventually, it could be upgraded to a single multi-threading
partition.

Someone else has suggested that we start with number 3 as multi-user is
not as important as getting a port of THE to work with a 3270 device.

This is intended as a community effort. I know I don't have all the
answers.

Tony Thigpen

[indust...@winwholesale.com]

"VSE-L" <vse-l-bounces+industrynews=winwhole...@lists.lehigh.edu> wrote on 01/29/2016 08:05:57 AM:
> I actually envisioned eventually growing the editor as follows:
> 1) CICS based (to get it working)
> 2) Multi-user VTAM based
> 3) Single user batch based (non-VTAM cuu physical I-O)
> 4) Multi-user VTAM or physical I-O

        I see.  I'm in favor of a progression -- in fact it is an opportunity to have multiple versions because some people will want a CICS-based editor while some will want something else, etc.  Naturally, I for one would not want to get into the business having to maintain multiple versions in perpetuity.  But modularity could lend itself to a single version that would support any of the three environments (CICS-based, VTAM-based, physical I/O).  What I'm not particularly in favor of is a port -- but only from the standpoint that the original product might create difficulties or restrictions with trying to get it ported.

> I was actually thinking of your help when it came to step 3 since you
> had something like it already.

        Yes, I've got the physical I/O aspect working.  It is just the channel program appendage routine that I've been avoiding wrapping my head around.  I've read up on how the appendage routine is to work and I understand it.  But I haven't had a driving reason to actually try and put it into code -- especially after Gustavo's VSEDIT came into being.  This shared project could certainly become that driving reason.   ;-)   I believe Gustavo actually used the BTAM interfaces to get around having to code his own appendage routine.  I am in favor of creating something that is not dependent upon the old BTAM code.

[Gustavo Torres]

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 1:11 PM, <indust...@winwholesale.com> wrote:

> Yes, I've got the physical I/O aspect working.  It is just the channel program appendage routine that I've been avoiding wrapping my head around.  I've read up on how the > appendage routine is to work and I understand it.

I posted a Sample 3270 program with channel appendage routine sometime ago, you could check it at: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/bit.listserv.vse-l/Tdf0IvozCy0

[Mike Farmer]

We are having issues getting Purchase orders to print on a newer desktop
printer when sent from our VSE system. It works fine on older PCL 4
printers but doesn't work on the newer printers.

Below is the code we use for a PCL 4 printer.

* $$ LST DISP=H
// JOB HP4LAND
// LIBDEF PHASE,CATALOG=PRD2.CONFIG
// OPTION CATAL
// EXEC ASSEMBLY
HP4LAND INSERTS DEFINE, X
HEADER=1B451B266C314F1B266C38441B2831551B2873307031362E3X
63768382E3576307330623054, X
TRAILER=1B45
END
/*
// EXEC LNKEDT
/*
/&

What changes would be needed in this code tor a PCL 5 printer?

Thanks
Mike Farmer
Bernhardt Furniture Co

[Frank M. Ramaekers]

Hmmm....should be backwards compatible.

Frank M. Ramaekers Jr.

-----Original Message-----
From: VSE-L
[mailto:vse-l-bounces+framaekers=ailif...@lists.lehigh.edu] On Behalf
Of Mike Farmer
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2016 8:59 AM
To: VSE Discussion List

[indust...@winwholesale.com]

"VSE-L" <vse-l-bounces+industrynews=winwhole...@lists.lehigh.edu> wrote on 01/30/2016 11:01:05 AM:
> I'm not sure you really need a channel appendage routine any more.
> The main reason for one is to re-queue stuff into the channel queue to
> catch attention interrupts.

        Yes, my understanding for the need of an appendage routine is that VSE will discard the 3270 attention interrupt because there is nothing in the channel queue waiting for I/O on that device address.  Thus, a false channel queue entry is created and the appendage routine requeues it as a valid channel queue entry when it is time to wake up my program to do a read.  At least, that is what I got out of my first read through regarding 3270 physical I/O as it relates to unsolicited attention interrupts.

> But, You can do this easily with a I/O vendor exit. When an interrupt comes
> in on the one of your 3270 devices you simply post the ECB associated with
> the device in your control block. This wakes up your application and you
> issue a read.

        I believe somebody once suggested the vendor I/O exit to me back at the time.  But, I don't know anything about such a vendor I/O exit so I am even more stuck when it comes to impimenting such a vendor exit than I am in trying to impliment a channel appendage routine.  At least I have a sample program that shows me how to use a channel appendage routine without using BTAM.  If this becomes a shared project then maybe one of you good people out there will be willing to fill in this gap.