Web-based administration for z/VM
Ranga Nathan
DIRMAINT type operations as well as guest IPL, shutdown etc? And it is
Linux aware?
I have heard of Aduva and Levanta but these do not seem to go far in the
z/VM department.
Thanks
Michael Coffin
everything else you asked about (and then some):
Talk to Chris Langford, if it's NOT DIRMAINT aware, it probably could be made to
be relatively quickly.
Michael Coffin, President
MC Consulting Company, Inc.
PMB 123
289 Park Street
Stoughton, Massachusetts 02072
Voice: (781) 344-9837 FAX: (781) 344-7683
Michae...@mccci.com
www.mccci.com
We employ aggressive SPAM filters. If you cannot reply or send email to
mccci.com go to www.mccci.com/spamblockremove.php
Barton Robinson
and we've talked about cleaning this up, adding what's missing,
and providing it to customers as part of our ESAWEB webserver.
This includes administering RACF and DIRMAINT function that we use.
Web based administration is the direction we took for ESALPS
(Linux Performance Suite) to allow the linux folks to administer
linux data performance data collection and look at the data. And
we have ongoing projects to enhance this ESALPS web interface.
Is there really interest from the VM community in administering
their VM system via browser? ESAWEB is very fast, is very easy
to implement CGI's, and runs on way over a hundred VM systems
today, so this project makes very good sense.
But we don't get any requests for this type of application - is
that because people don't think about it? If there is interest,
we'll do it.
Let me know.
>Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:57:43 -0800
>From: Ranga Nathan <kair...@cox.net>
>
>Is anyone aware of any web-based admin tool for z/VM that allows
>all DIRMAINT type operations as well as guest IPL, shutdown etc?
>And it is Linux aware? I have heard of Aduva and Levanta but
>these do not seem to go far in the z/VM department. Thanks
"If you can't measure it, I'm Just NOT interested!"(tm)
/************************************************************/
Barton Robinson - CBW Internet: BAR...@VELOCITY-SOFTWARE.COM
Velocity Software, Inc Mailing Address:
196-D Castro Street P.O. Box 390640
Mountain View, CA 94041 Mountain View, CA 94039-0640
VM Performance Hotline: 650-964-8867
Fax: 650-964-9012 Web Page: WWW.VELOCITY-SOFTWARE.COM
/************************************************************/
Schuh, Richard
We have ways to do things today. Webifying them would not provide anything more than I have today. It would be no good as an alternate path to the system because (a) I am using TN3270 to access it today and would have to create a second IP stack for it to give me a different path, (b) if I do that, I can just as easily enable TN3270 on it, and (c) it just introduces one more layer between me and the system, one more possibility for failure (not that you would ever give us code that .... Aw, never mind.) True, we could make things prettier, and that might impress some managers. But I haven't tried to impress them with anything other than my performance in the 40+ years that I have been in the work force.
-----Original Message-----
From: VM/ESA and z/VM Discussions [mailto:VME...@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU] On Behalf Of Barton Robinson
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 2:16 PM
To: VME...@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU
Subject: Web-based administration for z/VM
Jack Woehr
> But I haven't tried to impress them with anything other than my performance in the 40+ years that I have been in the work force.
>
>
Which is a roundabout way of saying that your opinion won't matter much
longer .... whereas
the needs of the Genyouwine Komp Sigh Gradjits who succeed you will be
of prime importance
in keeping these installations more or less running after those who
understand How It Really
Works have vanished like the engineers of the First Galactic Empire in
Asimov's "Foundation"
series did :-)
--
Jack J. Woehr # "I never played fast and loose with the
PO Box 51, Golden, CO 80402 # Constitution. Never did and never will."
http://www.well.com/~jax # - Harry S Truman
David Boyes
> I haven't thought about it before. Here is my $.02
My additional bit:
TCPIP would need to start much earlier in the CP IPL process for this
kind of thing to be really handy. It might be useful for some basic
administration tasks, but I think you'll run directly into the same
problem that SAF had -- it's really hard to be flexible enough to allow
the kinds of configuration necessary for Linux hosting, and there are
few new CMS shops appearing. Most of the CMS-intensive workload left has
already done the necessary automation in other ways, and the support in
IBM Director for managing VM images does provide some limited capability
if you absolutely have to have a GUI.
An interesting prototype web service for interacting with the VM SMAPI
is available for download on the VM Library site. If people are
interested in WWW administration for VM, it might prove to be a good
starting point. It was very useful to us in developing some of our
appliance tookit functions for Linux guests.
Ranga Nathan
concerned about unwanted complexity.
Alan Altmark wrote:
>On Friday, 01/06/2006 at 11:46 EST, David Boyes <dbo...@sinenomine.net>
>wrote:
>
>
>>>We find the IBM Virtualization Engine (VE), which contains IBM
>>>
>>>
>Director,
>
>
>>>to be very usable for Linux virtual machine management when used with
>>>
>>>
>the
>
>
>>>z/VM Center extensions.
>>>
>>>
>>*As far as it goes*, I'd agree. The problem is that it's still pretty
>>
>>
>limited
>
>
>>in function, and the documentation is very explicit about it not
>>
>>
>supporting
>
>
>>anything other than Linux guests. CMS isn't gone yet...
>>
>>We'll see how it develops.
>>
>>
>
>As soon as we start hearing from customers that configuring/cloning CMS
>guests is a problem that needs to be solved, I promise we'll go back and
>take another look.
>
>Alan Altmark
>z/VM Development
>IBM Endicott
>
>
>
Richard Schuh
We already have tools for configuring/cloning CMS guests. They are
called Dirmaint and VM:Secure. Don't take that other look unless you
really are starved for something to keep you busy.
Barton Robinson
never seen a site that didn't add their own tools because the
systems person had a "better/easier" way of doing something.
So is there any VM systems person with say 20 years of experience
that doesn't add their own interface or tools?
I work with a LOT of installations now where the VM/Linux
programmer is not experienced, does not have time for much
education if any, who's management thinks vm should be easy,
and who's primary method of interacting with computers is
via a browser. IBM does the initial installation,
but then they have to walk all on their own.
Many of the experienced VM people retire each year. If you
really want the VM platform to survive, an acceptable
interface is required to allow new people to function,
and that is not with line mode 3270. So the question of what
is needed is not addressed to the old timers ready to
retire, it is to the old timers helping the platform to
grow when there is a lack of skills, and lack of time
to acquire skills, and a strong interest in using browsers.
(I think VMWare and other vm competitors provide current
interfaces that are intuitive to new users..)
I'm still not sure how much of VE is Marketecture, but if
it just adds complexity and another set of tools, doesn't
sound like much value. So, how do you provide the NEW VM
system's person with the education and tools in a way
that is intuitive to them with low frustration?
Which is how Mr. Nathan started this thread?
>Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 23:26:33 -0800
>From: Richard Schuh <RNS...@comcast.net>
>
>Ranga Nathan wrote:
>
>> That product seems to do much more than what we need. I am a little
>> concerned about unwanted complexity.
>>
>> Alan Altmark wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, 01/06/2006 at 11:46 EST, David Boyes
>>> <dbo...@sinenomine.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> We find the IBM Virtualization Engine (VE), which contains IBM
>>> Director,
>>>>> to be very usable for Linux virtual machine management when used
>>>>> with
>>> the
>>>>> z/VM Center extensions.
>>>> *As far as it goes*, I'd agree. The problem is that it's still
>>>> pretty
>>> limited
>>>> in function, and the documentation is very explicit about it not
>>> supporting
>>>> anything other than Linux guests. CMS isn't gone yet...
>>>> We'll see how it develops.
>>>
>>> As soon as we start hearing from customers that configuring/cloning
>>> CMS guests is a problem that needs to be solved, I promise we'll go
>>> back and take another look.
>>>
>>
>We already have tools for configuring/cloning CMS guests. They are
>called Dirmaint and VM:Secure. Don't take that other look unless you
>really are starved for something to keep you busy.
"If you can't measure it, I'm Just NOT interested!"(tm)
Dave Jones
> I agree with Richard there are lots of tools. But also, i've
> never seen a site that didn't add their own tools because the
> systems person had a "better/easier" way of doing something.
> So is there any VM systems person with say 20 years of experience
> that doesn't add their own interface or tools?
>
> I work with a LOT of installations now where the VM/Linux
> programmer is not experienced, does not have time for much
> education if any, who's management thinks vm should be easy,
> and who's primary method of interacting with computers is
> via a browser. IBM does the initial installation,
> but then they have to walk all on their own.
>
> Many of the experienced VM people retire each year. If you
> really want the VM platform to survive, an acceptable
> interface is required to allow new people to function,
> and that is not with line mode 3270. So the question of what
> is needed is not addressed to the old timers ready to
CMS Full Screen Session Services? ;-) <g,d,r>
> retire, it is to the old timers helping the platform to
> grow when there is a lack of skills, and lack of time
> to acquire skills, and a strong interest in using browsers.
> (I think VMWare and other vm competitors provide current
> interfaces that are intuitive to new users..)
>
> I'm still not sure how much of VE is Marketecture, but if
> it just adds complexity and another set of tools, doesn't
> sound like much value. So, how do you provide the NEW VM
> system's person with the education and tools in a way
> that is intuitive to them with low frustration?
> Which is how Mr. Nathan started this thread?
>
DJ
Rod
You may laugh but I was writing admin interfaces
for Facilities Managed Sites using CMS Session Services
as long ago as VM/SP 5. It worked fine and probably
would work even now if that service hadn't been
cancelled.
These sites didn't have VM sysprogs, they had
administrators. We (the company) took the admin code
from another part of the company and used it over
here. I well remember having to flowchart and
document a 4,400+ line EXEC2 exec that front-ended
Dirmaint because I didn't have any documentation and
Dirmaint went and changed a message or two which broke
the exec.
Interesting to see how much the industry has/hasn't
changed in all these years.
--
Rod
Mrohs, Ray
useful GUI tool. As one of the more successful aspects of Windows, it makes sense
to emulate an interface that's familiar and comfortable. Ideally it might comb
through the VM Help structure and build panels with all the available commands
and options. Context-sensitive help and search would be very useful.
It must easily integrate 3rd party software since most day-to-day activities
involve resource/security management, backup monitoring, etc. There would also be
a scrolling window showing the command lines being presented to the system so new
admins can ultimately become familiar with line mode. A real challenge would be
full-screen VM text interfaces; I've never seen a screen scrape that didn't look
clunky or require a lot of tweaking to work right.
Ray Mrohs
Energy Information Administration
U.S. Department of Energy
-----Original Message-----
From: Barton Robinson [mailto:BAR...@VM1.velocity-software.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 11:29 AM
To: VME...@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU
Subject: Re: Web-based administration for z/VM
I agree with Richard there are lots of tools. But also, i've
never seen a site that didn't add their own tools because the
systems person had a "better/easier" way of doing something.
So is there any VM systems person with say 20 years of experience
that doesn't add their own interface or tools?
I work with a LOT of installations now where the VM/Linux
programmer is not experienced, does not have time for much
education if any, who's management thinks vm should be easy,
and who's primary method of interacting with computers is
via a browser. IBM does the initial installation,
but then they have to walk all on their own.
Many of the experienced VM people retire each year. If you
really want the VM platform to survive, an acceptable
interface is required to allow new people to function,
and that is not with line mode 3270. So the question of what
is needed is not addressed to the old timers ready to
retire, it is to the old timers helping the platform to
grow when there is a lack of skills, and lack of time
to acquire skills, and a strong interest in using browsers.
(I think VMWare and other vm competitors provide current
interfaces that are intuitive to new users..)
I'm still not sure how much of VE is Marketecture, but if
it just adds complexity and another set of tools, doesn't
sound like much value. So, how do you provide the NEW VM
system's person with the education and tools in a way
that is intuitive to them with low frustration?
Which is how Mr. Nathan started this thread?
>Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 23:26:33 -0800
Schuh, Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: VM/ESA and z/VM Discussions [mailto:VME...@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU] On Behalf Of Alan Altmark
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 3:24 PM
To: VME...@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU
Subject: Re: Web-based administration for z/VM
I've seen it working on a z/VM system, so it's not just "Marketecture". In
its first iteration it attempts to meet the needs of a System
Administrator, not a Systems Programmer, since it is the *admins* who
don't want to deal with the ... idiosynchrasies (?) ... of a z/VM system.
Gregg C Levine
Well I've met a few z/VM systems. The pair that travels with the group
to each Linux World Expo trade show. Pair meaning the actual system
and I believe an external DASD array, whose name I've forgotten.
And at a seminar last year about the Blue Gene system I met both the
system that I mentioned and a z/VM system there. This was in NYC.
Naturally I didn't ask where that guy was keeping his DASD arrays.
Just how easy now is it to setup a completely new z/VM and Linux
system? Or did I miss the meaning behind the thread?
---
Gregg C Levine hansol...@worldnet.att.net
---
"Remember the Force will be with you. Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
> -----Original Message-----
> From: VM/ESA and z/VM Discussions [mailto:VMESA-
> L...@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU] On Behalf Of Alan Altmark
> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 6:24 PM
> To: VME...@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU
> Subject: Re: Web-based administration for z/VM
>
> On Sunday, 01/08/2006 at 08:28 PST, Barton Robinson
> <BAR...@VM1.velocity-software.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm still not sure how much of VE is Marketecture, but if
> > it just adds complexity and another set of tools, doesn't
> > sound like much value. So, how do you provide the NEW VM
> > system's person with the education and tools in a way
> > that is intuitive to them with low frustration?
> > Which is how Mr. Nathan started this thread?
>
Ranga Nathan
>I think it would be a good idea to "commoditize" VM as much as possible with a
>useful GUI tool. As one of the more successful aspects of Windows, it makes sense
>to emulate an interface that's familiar and comfortable. Ideally it might comb
>through the VM Help structure and build panels with all the available commands
>and options. Context-sensitive help and search would be very useful.
>
>
The scope of my query was limited to Linux. I guess you would ask "why
Linux"? It is because newbies like me are being asked to move Linux to
z/VM. We do not have any other workload on z/VM unlike more mature
sites running many other traditional mission-critical systems built over
many years.
DIRMAINT is good, DATAMOVE is ok but would it not be nice to administer
everything through a web panel, somewhat like webmin? Presently we have
only a few production Linux images but potentially we could bring in
many criitical systems into z/VM environment. As you mentioned, this can
only enhance the reputation of the z/VM platform.
--
__________________
Ranga Nathan
Work: 714-442-7591
Schuh, Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: VM/ESA and z/VM Discussions [mailto:VME...@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU] On Behalf Of Alan Altmark
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 4:49 PM
To: VME...@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU
Subject: Re: Web-based administration for z/VM
There are things a systems programmer must do and then there are things
administrators do. The line between the two is fuzzy, at best, but I like
to think that "a sysprog bails out the sysadmin when the admin tools quit
working". That is, the sysprog must know something about the system's
architecture and how to get things done. E.g. "Just IPL with NODIRECT and
use DEFINE MDISK" is not something I would let a sysadmin do.
My point was that IBM Virtualization Engine is currently geared towards
sysadmins, not sysprogs, though both jobs may be done by the same person.
Schuh, Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: VM/ESA and z/VM Discussions [mailto:VME...@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU] On Behalf Of Alan Altmark
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 10:20 AM
To: VME...@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU
Subject: Re: Web-based administration for z/VM
On Tuesday, 01/10/2006 at 09:48 PST, "Schuh, Richard" <rsc...@visa.com>
wrote:
> I do not know of too many shops who do not handle the distinction by
giving one
> person two hats. What is a sysadmin? Answer - A system programmer who
also
> handles the bulk of the administration of the system. What is a system
> programmer? Answer - A system administrator who handles the tasks of
system
> programming. I have never worked in a shop that separated the two
functions. If
> it was anything more that creating a new userid (using tools created by
the
> system programmer) or resetting a password, it was the prevue of the
system
> programmer/administrator.
I agree that in many (majority?) of today's systems there is the sysprog
and then there's "everyone else". But it is my perception that larger
companies seem to be trying to reestablish the once-common "middle class"
of sysadmin. That is, the people who are charged with the day-to-day
management of the system, but who will "contact their system support
personnel" when things go wrong. I think this is likely a salary issue:
Pay more for sysprogs, less for sysadmins. They want to grow, but not
hire more sysprogs just to handle the routine tasks of system management.
(I'm not particularly interested in drawing the line between the two; it's
fuzzy at best, and it's a decision best left to you, the customer.)
McKown, John
> From: VM/ESA and z/VM Discussions
> [mailto:VME...@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU] On Behalf Of Alan Altmark
> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 12:20 PM
> To: VME...@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU
> Subject: Re: Web-based administration for z/VM
>
<snip>
>
> I agree that in many (majority?) of today's systems there is
> the sysprog
> and then there's "everyone else". But it is my perception
> that larger
> companies seem to be trying to reestablish the once-common
> "middle class"
> of sysadmin. That is, the people who are charged with the day-to-day
> management of the system, but who will "contact their system support
> personnel" when things go wrong. I think this is likely a
> salary issue:
> Pay more for sysprogs, less for sysadmins. They want to
> grow, but not
> hire more sysprogs just to handle the routine tasks of system
> management.
>
> (I'm not particularly interested in drawing the line between
> the two; it's
> fuzzy at best, and it's a decision best left to you, the customer.)
>
> Alan Altmark
> z/VM Development
> IBM Endicott
>
May I be a bit "tacky" (well, I'm going to be anyway). The main
difference that I am aware of between a "sysadmin" and a "sysprog",
other than title and salary, is in the majority of cases, a "sysadmin"
only knows the tools for day to day administration and does not always
really understand the "why" of what they do. I.e. many do things "by
rote" or using a "cookbook". Hopefully, a "sysprog" understands "why"
one does something rather than just "how". Now, a good "sysadmin" will
likely be motivated enough, and hopefully be encouraged, to learn the
"why" so that they can advance.
--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
UICI Insurance Center
Information Technology
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Schuh, Richard
In that case, everybody who has an id should fulfill the first requirement. I always tell new people that the single most important command in VM is HELP and that the documentation of messages is available via the HELP facility. Only problem is, we have no good sysadmins according to your definition. Nobody bothers to look up a message before calling. ;-(
-----Original Message-----
From: VM/ESA and z/VM Discussions
[mailto:VME...@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU]On Behalf
Of Mike Walter
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006
3:09 PM
To: VME...@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU
Subject: Re: Web-based
administration for z/VM
OK, here are my definition:
SYSADMIN: A good SysAdmin will look up a message in the Systems Messages and
Codes manual. Upon seeing: "Response: Contact your Systems
Programmer", has someone more skilled to call upon.