Milemarkers
GNesbit
This question may be too general in nature, but how do railroads determine
milemarker locations? What I'm really asking is what is the starting
point? Is it division to division, state line to state line, or what? The
reason I ask is that on the CSX mainline around here (Savannah, GA) the mm
are in the 480 - 500 range. If it were state line to state line, like
interstates, the numbers couldn't be this high here. And if there is more
than one mainline per division, are they differientated in some way?
Thanks,
Garry Nesbit
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02-Apr-1997 1731
>This question may be too general in nature, but how do railroads determine
>milemarker locations?
>What I'm really asking is what is the starting point?
It varied from road to road to road.
Usually to some major point Eg: on the PRR, the NEC usually
counts distances from philly. B&M used to count them from Boston,
for the main lines. Ditto the B&A.
>Is it division to division, state line to state line, or what?
It varies. Usually to a major geograpical location, a city. The
Employee Time Table would say, explicitly or implicitly.
>The reason I ask is that on the CSX mainline around here (Savannah, GA) the mm
>are in the 480 - 500 range.
Whats 500 mi away, in each direction, along which ever rr BUILT that?
(Southern? izzit 500 mi to New Orleans? My geography of Georgia is
non existent.... 500 mi to DC?)
>If it were state line to state line, like interstates, the numbers couldn't
>be this high here.
State Lines, per se, were an irrelavancy to a RR.
>And if there is more than one mainline per division, are they differientated
>in some way?
I'm sure this varied all over the lot. Some roads had a letter
preceding the number plates ON SIGNALS that indicated which branch
or line. The B&M (when i first rode it) had some mile markers that
had (say) B15 (15 miles to boston) on one face and N70 (70 miles to
North Adams (?) on the other face.. (NO FAIR checking map distances,
the digits are from memory
regards
dwp
Jeff Scarbrough
>>This question may be too general in nature, but how do railroads determine
>>point? Is it division to division, state line to state line, or what? The
>>reason I ask is that on the CSX mainline around here (Savannah, GA) the mm
> GARRY, Excellent question. I live on a CSX line in the Dothan Sub
>In a Georgia town called Cairo. CSX has a small yard in Thomasville, GA. 12
>mi. east and all our road numbers are in the 700 series. We're 90 miles due
>East of Dothan and about 100 West of Waycross Yard where our Westbound
>trains originate from. 700 miles from here is about Louisville,Ky. say.
>I'd appreciate anyone filling us in.
Garry, Dennis & others,
I live on the CSX Abbeville sub at the 500 milepost, with the numbers going
down as you go north. . We are about 550 miles south of D.C., thus I think
they are numbered from a major interchange in that direction. I would
guess it would be the junction of Seaboard and RF&P. The letters that
precede the MP number in the ETT (in this case SG) must give some clue.
We are also on the Southern branch at MP 96, numbered north fron Macon.
Just north of here, where this ex-CofG track meets the SOU Lula-Athens
branch, the numbers change and begin counting down as you go north. I don't
think there are any associated letters with NS mileposts.
Jeff Scarbrough je...@negia.net
Athens, Georgia
Visit the North Georgia Railroad Page at http://www.negia.net/~jeff
Gary R. Kazin
More likely it's from the 'Zero Milepost' in downtown Atlanta.
Usually a railroad takes its mileposts from one end, so the Erie
numbered from Jersey City to Buffalo, the Lackawanna numbered from
the New York ferry landing which resulted in mileposts starting at
1 in Hoboken, and so forth. The Pennsylvania, because it took over
many existing lines, had many different zero points: New York
Penn Station going both east (for the LIRR) and west, Jersey City
at the one-time ferry landing, Philadelphia,...
Usually they ignored state lines unless they had a different
corporation at that point - it was otherwise irrelevant to the
railroad and would cause confusion.
R. Todd Minsk
wrote:
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:10:27 EST
From: GNesbit <gne...@milkyway.ci.savannah.ga.us>
Subject: Milemarkers
This question may be too general in nature, but how do railroads determine
milemarker locations? What I'm really asking is what is the starting
point? Is it division to division, state line to state line, or what? The
reason I ask is that on the CSX mainline around here (Savannah, GA) the mm
are in the 480 - 500 range. If it were state line to state line, like
interstates, the numbers couldn't be this high here. And if there is more
than one mainline per division, are they differientated in some way?
Thanks,
Garry Nesbit
---End of quoted material---
Different railroads have different policies. Most USA main lines put zero at
the east or north end of whatever company ran it circa 1920-1960 (that is,
after consolidation of all the little short lines, but prior to the
mega-mergers). Notable exceptions that were constructed west to east and thus
numbered eastbound: SP (but not T&NO or SSW), WP, LA&SL, OWR&N, NYNH&H, LIRR.
The number sequence sometimes reverts to zero at some important point along the
way, or more commonly carries through to the other end of the line. State
boundaries rarely affect the mileage numbering, but do cause the valuation
sections to change, as these are grouped by state on each railroad.
Branches tend to be measured by continuing the mileage of the main line from
the junction, or starting anew with zero there. In case of duplication, often
lines are identified with alpha characters, which may be initials of end point
cities or some sort of route code.
There are situations (mostly post-1960) where routes are cobbled together from
different predecessor companies, causing the mileposts to be a mixture of short
sequences.
In your case, ACL and SAL are both from Richmond (VA), called the "A" and "S"
lines respectively.
Canada usually numbers miles by subdivision with zero at the east or south
ends; numbers start over at each subdivision point. How long is a subdivision?
On CNR, as much as 300 miles in the flatlands, less than half that in mountains
or where train speeds tend to be slower.
Most lines in Mexico are measured (in kilometers) from Mexico City or the
closest junction point thereto. I don't know about the rest of the world
except that most countries use metric distances.
Examine a few employee timetables or track charts and you will begin to see
patterns.
Todd Minsk
r.todd...@dartmouth.edu
Hanover, NH USA
AAK
> This question may be too general in nature, but how do railroads determine
> milemarker locations?
I work the Bighorn Sub of the Yellowstone Division of the BNSF
formerly the CB&Q. The milepost for my home terminal is 698. The
mileposts start at the point where this "branch line" leaves the
"main line" at Lincoln, NE. This was once known as "The Long Branch"
and it goes from Lincoln, NE to Huntley, MT. MP 0 to MP 830. Most
branches of RRs are done in this manner, starting at zero where they
leave the main line and going up until the end of the branch is
reached which may be a dead end or where it connects to another main
or branch. The former Northern Pacific of the current BNSF and MRL
numbered their Mile Posts from east to west starting over with zero
at each division point. For example: one MP 0 is near Fargo, ND and
the numbers go up to MP 200 at Mandan (Bismark), ND. At Mandan they
start over again at MP 0 and go up to MP 215 at Glendive,MT. At
Glendive another MP 0 up to MP 225 at Billings, MT. It goes like this
all the way from Minneapolis/St. Paul area to the Pacific Coast. The
former Great Northern numbered their mileposts starting at zero near
Minneapolis on upwards clear across the system to the Pacific Coast.
These mileposts reach to around MP 1200. So there you have it. Three
different methods of numbering mileposts by three different RRs. All
of which are now part of one RR.
I took a trip to Phoenix last week and stayed overnight in Flagstaff
to explore a bit. I noticed that the ATSF branch to Phoenix leaves
the Chicago-L.A. main at Williams Jct MP 375. But the MPs for the
branch don't start at zero at this location. They continue the
mainline MPs down the branch until you get to MP 401 at Ash Fork
where
they suddenly start over with MP 0 to Phoenix at MP 193. This seemed
strange until I finally decided that the first 26 miles of the
Phoenix branch must have originally been part of the Chicago-L.A.
mainline. Thus it was actually MP 375 to MP 401 on that original main
and Ash Fork must have been the original diversion point of the
Phoenix branch. This would explain the weird MP numbering of the
branch. I am sure this is old hat to fans of the SF but new to me. So
you can see that the numbering of Mileposts for any section of
railroad can have a complex history.
MP trivia anyone?
What is the highest MP on the former NP system?
What is the highest MP on the GN?
What is the highest continous MP in the US? Canada?
AK
Gregory w Lund
Some RR's use the "home" city,Such as New York for the former NYC,
Philly for the PRR, but with a few twists,the Mileposts start again at
zero at the"lines west points" Buffalo and Pittsburgh respectively.
Additional lines such as the Big 4(Cleveland-Indy) started MP 0 at
Cleveland Union Terminal or some definitive point.
Other RR's use a subdivision numbering system.
MP 0 at terminal A MP xxx at terminal B.
AAK's description in his response probably says it best.
On Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:10:27 EST GNesbit
<gne...@milkyway.ci.savannah.ga.us> writes:
>This question may be too general in nature, but how do railroads
>determine
>milemarker locations? What I'm really asking is what is the starting
>point? Is it division to division, state line to state line, or what?
> The
>reason I ask is that on the CSX mainline around here (Savannah, GA)
>the mm
>are in the 480 - 500 range. If it were state line to state line, like
>interstates, the numbers couldn't be this high here. And if there is
>more
>than one mainline per division, are they differientated in some way?
>
>Thanks,
>Garry Nesbit
>
>
>The following was included as an attachement. Please use UUDECODE
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Brett Rekola
Typically mile markers are based upon the orginal surveyors chaining
station when the right of way was laid out in the early 1800's. Railroad
then picked start points and adjusted after mergers or takeovers to suit
the needs and desires of the management of the period. Many mile markers
where obliterated to erradicate the memory of the previous management or
owners in takeovers, hence the multiple locations. Also as engineering
departments were reduced track throws were completed without as- built
plans hence the typical mile is not 5280 feet but based upon the
"history' of single tracking and cumilative history of the engineering
departments and or operating departments.
brett rekola PLS
Evan Werkema
AAK <alk...@wave.sheridan.wy.us> wrote:
>I took a trip to Phoenix last week and stayed overnight in Flagstaff
>to explore a bit. I noticed that the ATSF branch to Phoenix leaves
>the Chicago-L.A. main at Williams Jct MP 375. But the MPs for the
>branch don't start at zero at this location. They continue the
>mainline MPs down the branch until you get to MP 401 at Ash Fork
>where they suddenly start over with MP 0 to Phoenix at MP 193. This
>seemed strange until I finally decided that the first 26 miles of
>the Phoenix branch must have originally been part of the Chicago-L.A.
>mainline.
Yup. Driving between Ash Fork and Williams on I-40, you'll
notice that there's one HECK of a grade. Santa Fe bypassed
it with a line relocation to the north (Crookton Cutoff
sticks in my mind), but kept the Ash Fork to Williams Jct.
section for access to the Peavine (Phoenix line). You can
still see the abandoned grade west of Ash Fork paralleling I-40
for several miles.
But if you thought those mileposts were confusing...
The miles you saw there in Ash Fork were miles from
Albuquerque, NM, and that numbering continues all the
way west to the San Francisco Bay. But there's no zero
mile post at Albuquerque, or mileposts 1, 2, etc., because
Albuquerque is also on Santa Fe's main line to El Paso, TX.
Mileposts on that line are numbered from Atchison, KS, and
the numbering has been retained up to the present. The first
milepost you encounter that reflects miles numbered from
Albuquerque is at Isleta, some 18 or so miles south, where
the main line westward branches off the line to El Paso.
Don't ask me why they didn't they start numbering the
mileposts from Isleta.
But that's not all! Isleta is only the northern point of
a triangle of main line tracks that link the original main
line to the "Belen Cutoff," which most of Santa Fe's freight
traffic uses. At Belen, the southern point of the triangle,
the line west starts at milepost 0 and continues until the
tracks reach Dalies, NM, the western point of the triangle.
At that point, you're at about milepost 10 from Belen. Then
the line from Isleta swings in, and miles numbered from
Albuquerque take over. The mileposts for trains coming
from Belen suddenly jump from about 10 to about 25!
At 06:47 AM 4/4/97 -0600, wes.lea...@sandbox.telepath.com wrote:
>Brett Rekola <rek...@ma.ultranet.com> wrote:
> > Typically mile markers are based upon the orginal surveyors chaining
> > station when the right of way was laid out in the early 1800's.
> > Railroad then picked start points and adjusted after mergers or
> > takeovers to suit the needs and desires of the management of the
> > period. Many mile markers where obliterated to erradicate the memory of
> > the previous management or owners in takeovers, hence the multiple
> > locations.
>
> Can you mention some examples where this happened? In
>general milepost numbers are not changed because of the expense
>of changing all of them and no purpose is served by changing
>them.
I know of one case where milepost numbers were changed, though
not for the reasons mentioned. About 1988, Santa Fe changed
the mileposts on the branch to Deming, NM to reflect miles
from Atchison instead of miles from Rincon, NM (the junction
off the El Paso line). I'm not sure why they did this, though.
Evan...who lives within 30 minutes of the highest numbered
milepost on the Santa Fe...
--
/I Evan Werkema I\ _,_._,__,------------\
I I Berkeley, CA I | |===== `~~~~~~~~~|oo|___
_I I fp...@uclink4.berkeley.edu I_|_I_|_____Santa_Fe____|__|__|_I
~~o==o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o==o~~`-'O===O~===========~O===O`-'