Harriman passenger cars
Tim Oconnor
> I, too, am interested in finding information on Harriman passenger cars.
> Does anyone know where to obtain rosters, drawings, photos, etc? What
> railroads used them besides the UP and SP? Any leads would be helpfull.
Mike, I am VERY interested in this subject but the information seems to be
scattered all over the place. This sounds like a great idea for a RR book!
(I suspect such books may be in progress, judging by the number of new
"Color Guide to XYZ Railroad" books. But the new books are all hooked
on color, and that means they often resort to mediocre photos, rather
than publishing a much better black and white photo.)
There have been many articles written in magazines over the years that have
photos of Harriman cars, or even featured the cars. Both the SP "Trainline"
and UP "Streamliner" historical society magazines have run articles that
included information on these cars. I have a WAYNER book titled "Historic
Southern Pacific Cars" that includes a number of photos and brief captions.
(I've never seen a WAYNER book in a store, I've always found them at
flea market/train shows. Where they come from, I do not know.)
Almost any Southern Pacific or Union Pacific book will contain photos of
Harriman cars, as they lasted well into the 1970's (SP commute service)
and can still be found in MofW service. There -must- be a source of info
somewhere, because Precision Scale and Coach Yard have imported literally
dozens of brass models of these cars.. If I were going to write a book, I
think I would contact the historical societies first, then the importers.
(Some of the best photos that I've found of Harriman cars have appeared
in importer's ads in model magazines.)
E.H. Harriman's empire included the Southern Pacific (and its affiliates),
the Union Pacific (ditto), the Illinois Central, and the Chicago & Alton
(later merged with the Mobile & Ohio to become the GM&O). So all of these
railroads shared motive power, freight car, and passenger car standards.
These standards were enshrined as the Common Standards. I found two books
of Common Standards at Allied Trains (name?) in LA a couple of years ago.
They were large format paperbacks but no rolling stock, just bridges and
buildings and signals, etc. The U.S. federal government (i.e. the mass of
American people) broke up the Harriman empire around 1912, I believe after
his death.
(Ever wonder why UP and SP classified their freight cars as B-50-22 or
CH-90-5? That began with Harriman, the first being the B-50-1 boxcar.)
Oh, yes, the SP Historical Society does publish a large roster book that
contains a listing and tons of technical info on every single piece of
equipment owned by the SP or subsidiaries circa 1956 -- just around the
time of the first major renumbering. This includes many, many Harriman
cars and all MofW equipment at that time. It's all text, no pictures, but
very useful and not terribly expensive (about $20).
Finally, several people mentioned the Railway Production Classics (RPC)
series of books on Pullman-Standard lightweight passenger cars. There are
15 or more of these books, including two on the SP (prewar and postwar).
None of the books has any heavyweight or Harriman information!
[Mike Baynes]
passenger cars. I have both of the Pulman-Standard "red" books that have
been mentioned. Volumes 13 & 14 cover the UP lightweight equipment,
beginning with M10000 of 1933. Nearly all of the published material on
UP passenger equipment covers the lightweight streamlined era. I guess
most authors have found heavyweight equipment to be not so interesting.
What information I have is contained in a photocopy of the UP Passenger Car
Diagram book dated 10/27/41. It contains a number of equipment diagrams
of Harriman cars that were on the roster in 1941. The earliest built-date
I could find was 1908, the latest was 1929. The majority were listed as
being built by P.C.&M. Corp. Does anyone know anything about this company?
Was it an earlier name for Pulman-Standard? The runner-up was AC&F. I also
found Pressed Steel Car Co, SSC Co, and a Horse-Baggage-Automobile car built
by "Beth. S. Co" (Bethlehem Steel?),
I believe that the UP corporate museum in Omaha probably has a wealth of
relevant information. But they aren't staffed to do the necessary
searches. And since I haven't been able to take the time to make the
pilgrimage to Omaha, I'll have to leave the book writing to someone
else for now. It does sound like an interesting project, though...
Does anyone else have other sources of data?
Mike Baynes
mba...@teleport.com
jaley
E9's this weekend. The excursion is between Oroville, CA and Portola, CA
(round trip).
Does anyone know where the train will be kept prior to, between,
and after the runs? I suspect they'll come south to Stockton, as there's
a major yard & engine facility there.
My real question is "will I be able to see the train come through
Sacramento, or do I have to go up to Oroville this weekend?"
Thanks in advance for the info.
--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer
486 Microprocessor Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533
bill lugg 3-0347
> E9's this weekend. The excursion is between Oroville, CA and Portola, CA
> (round trip).
Do you have any info on their operating schedule? I misplaced my announcement
of the event.
> Does anyone know where the train will be kept prior to, between,
> and after the runs? I suspect they'll come south to Stockton, as there's
> a major yard & engine facility there.
> My real question is "will I be able to see the train come through
> Sacramento, or do I have to go up to Oroville this weekend?"
>
> Thanks in advance for the info.
>
>
>
> --
> Jeff Aley, Development Engineer
> 486 Microprocessor Division
> Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
> (916) 356-3533
>
--
Bill Lugg
Mechanical Engineer, Space Systems Command
McClellan AFB
Sacramento, Ca
Internet: lu...@ch53.mcclellan.af.mil
Allen Brown
> The Pacific Limited is running a UP passenger excursion behind the
> E9's this weekend. The excursion is between Oroville, CA and Portola, CA
> (round trip).
> Does anyone know where the train will be kept prior to, between,
> and after the runs? I suspect they'll come south to Stockton, as there's
> a major yard & engine facility there.
> My real question is "will I be able to see the train come through
> Sacramento, or do I have to go up to Oroville this weekend?"
>
I would be interested in hearing more about this since I live in
Stockton. If anyone finds out if they are coming to Stockton please let
me know.
Thanks in advance
--Allen--
Jim Maurer
>
> The Pacific Limited is running a UP passenger excursion behind the
> E9's this weekend. The excursion is between Oroville, CA and Portola, CA
> (round trip).
> Does anyone know where the train will be kept prior to, between,
> and after the runs? I suspect they'll come south to Stockton, as there's
> a major yard & engine facility there.
> My real question is "will I be able to see the train come through
> Sacramento, or do I have to go up to Oroville this weekend?"
>
Nope, it's not going to Stockton and won't be going through Sacramento,
either. The train will be kept in the yard at Oroville overnight and
will be turned at the first wye south of Oroville. (Sorry, I can't
remember the name of the place.) The train will go out to Reno Jct. to
be turned after the people are dropped off at Oroville.
BTW, the westbound deadhead should get to Portola around 9:00 or 9:30
Friday morning and stop there long enough to load T-shirts, then get
in to Oroville around 3:30 in the afternoon.
--
Jim Maurer | First Law of Robotics: A robot may not injure a human
Specialix Inc. | being or through inaction allow a human being to come
j...@specialix.com | to harm.
+1-408-378-7919 | -- Isaac Asimov (1920 - 1992)
paul Veltman
> and after the runs? I suspect they'll come south to Stockton, as
there's > a major yard & engine facility there. > My real question is
"will I be able to see the train come through > Sacramento, or do I have
to go up to Oroville this weekend?"
>
Don't assume that they need a yard and engine facility. When this train
hit the Bay Area last year, they stored the train on a siding in
Centerville. I would presume that the train will be kept in either
Portola or Oroville, or close to those places. Stockton's a long way to
go to just store a train.
Regards,
Paul
Neil Carlson
>
> The Pacific Limited is running a UP passenger excursion behind
the
>E9's this weekend. The excursion is between Oroville, CA and Portola,
CA
>(round trip).
between,
>and after the runs? I suspect they'll come south to Stockton, as
there's
>a major yard & engine facility there.
> My real question is "will I be able to see the train come
through
>Sacramento, or do I have to go up to Oroville this weekend?"
>
>
>
It will get as far south as Biney Jct. (Marysville) to turn, but it
will overnight in Oroville.
Neil Carlson
jaley
> Subject: Re: Pacific Limited
> On Tue, 25 Apr 1995, jaley wrote:
>
> > The Pacific Limited is running a UP passenger excursion behind
the
> > E9's this weekend.
through
> > Sacramento, or do I have to go up to Oroville this weekend?"
> >
> Stockton. If anyone finds out if they are coming to Stockton please let
> me know.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> --Allen--
Well, I'm a bit confused. Several people have said that the train
won't be coming as far south as Sacramento & Stockton, and that it will
stay in Oroville & turn at the wye in Marysville.
However, the "WHERE ARE THEY" posting indicates that the trains
are on GSST18, a symbol which I have trouble deciphering. According to a
symbols list I obtained, "GS" is not listed, though the "S" could indicate
a "Special". ST, though, does stand for Stockton, CA.
Hmmm. Perhaps the train will be going to Stockton first,
(Friday?) then back-tracking to Oroville?
It doesn't matter anymore. I've rounded up the gang, and we're
going to drive up to Portola and chase the train back down through the
canyon. I wonder what the traffic will be like...(well, it's not STEAM or
anything).
Jim Maurer
> Well, I'm a bit confused. Several people have said that the train
> won't be coming as far south as Sacramento & Stockton, and that it will
> stay in Oroville & turn at the wye in Marysville.
> However, the "WHERE ARE THEY" posting indicates that the trains
> are on GSST18, a symbol which I have trouble deciphering. According to a
> symbols list I obtained, "GS" is not listed, though the "S" could indicate
> a "Special". ST, though, does stand for Stockton, CA.
> Hmmm. Perhaps the train will be going to Stockton first,
> (Friday?) then back-tracking to Oroville?
Nope, Binney Jct. is as far south (railroad west) it'll go.
> It doesn't matter anymore. I've rounded up the gang, and we're
> going to drive up to Portola and chase the train back down through the
> canyon. I wonder what the traffic will be like...(well, it's not STEAM or
> anything).
No, but it's still a pretty classy train!
jaley
> Do you have any info on their operating schedule? I misplaced my
announcement
> of the event.
Bill,
I doubt that this will reach you in time, but here's the info:
The E9's will arrive in Oroville Friday PM (04/28). They will proceed
south to Marysville where the train will be wyed.
The train will stay in Oroville overnight.
Saturday morning ~9:00, the train will depart Oroville for
Portola. Expected to arrive in Portola ~12:00 - 13:00. Passengers will
de-train and spend time (& money) at the museum. The train will continue
(without passengers) to Reno Jct., where it will be wyed, and will return
to Portola.
At ~14:00 - 15:00, the passengers will re-board, and the train
will depart for Oroville. I expect they'll arrive in Oroville sometime
around 17:00 or so. Passengers will de-train, the train will proceed to
Marysville to be wyed, and will return to Oroville for the night.
The same scenario will be repeated Sunday, with the following
additions:
11:30 - 12:00, my friend Tom and I will arrive at the Portola
museum. We will explore the museum until the train arrives, at which
point we will take photos.
As the train departs, we will jump into my Taurus and drive to a
suitable photo location ahead of the train. We will stop, shoot, and
drive on to the next photo opportunity. This will continue until the
arrival in Oroville.
If you'll be up there Sunday, I'm the one with the Intel baseball
cap.
-Jeff
jaley
by Jeff Aley
Thanks to many people on The Railroad List and rec.railroad, I was
able to learn that Union Pacific's excursion train, pulled by their E9's
were scheduled to travel through the Feather River Canyon (in northern
California) last weekend.
Due to personal schedule conflicts Saturday, my friend Tom and I
went on Sunday.
There was much rain on Saturday (at least for around here), so
Sunday seemed a better time anyway. Sunday's forecast: mostly cloudy, a
few scattered showers, increasing in late afternoon / early evening.
Sunday morning was cloudy and dry, so we jumped in my car and
headed up I-80 for Truckee. We caught a glimpse of an SP freight through
the trees, but didn't get to see what was on the point. There is still
plenty of snow in the Donner Pass region; the snow sheds appeared to be a
worthwhile investment. From I-80, a train could be seen waiting for
departure westbound out of Truckee.
From Truckee, we turned north onto CA-89 and headed up to Portola.
We arrived in Portola ~11:30 to find an eastbound changing crews in the
Portola yard. Power included a GE widecab (8-40C?), a ConRail unit, a NS
unit, and another UP unit (SD40-2?). These were on the point of a stack
train.
We proceeded to the Portola RR Museum. Upon arrival, I enquired
about the E9's and their scheduled arrival time. I was informed that due
to the recent rains, the canyon was considered too dangerous, and that the
excursion train was cancelled. I later discovered that the train had
instead been re-routed to go south (RR west) from Oroville to Oakland or
Milpitas. The bottom line: no E9's in the canyon today. :(
Stayed a few hours in the museum climbing on everything, opening
the hood doors of some of the locomotives, studying the UP CA-3 and CA-5
cabeese, etc. etc. I noted that they now have some sort of electric
locomotive with a pair of pantographs on top. It looks as if a steel
trestle has collapsed on top of the locomotive! :)
While in the museum, a westbound stopped, changed crews, and
departed for the canyon. I was discussing the motive power with Tom when
I noticed that the third unit was UP 3300 -- the "United We Stand" unit!
I made sure that Tom whipped out his camera and got a photo of this red,
white, and blue locomotive.
A while later, another westbound changed crews, then pulled
forward to the signal at the west end of the Portola siding. There it
sat. And sat. We figured that it was waiting for an eastbound to pass.
Finally, another westbound came up to change crews. This was a strange
train: only one unit on the point, and that unit was a C&NW (ex-CNW?)
widecab, pulling a handful of loaded TOFC cars. The TOFC train pulled
past the waiting train (a manifest with 3 UP engines) and continued down
the line.
We decided that it was chase time! We jumped in the car and
headed west on CA-70. First stop: Clio trestle. A quick check of our
Rail Fan Guide showed that a quick jaunt down 70, then a left towards
Blairsden, and another left "at the Clio sign" just past Graeagle brought
us to the famous trestle. Now, of course, it was raining. We missed the
TOFC train, but climbed up the dirt road to track level (on foot) in hopes
of catching the manifest. A quick check of the signals just east of the
trestle showed that the track was already set up for another westbound
movement, and the board was green. Several damp moments later, the
manifest appeared. Photos were taken.
As soon as FRED had passed, we scrambled back down the hill to the
car, and proceeded to the not-so-famous Williams Loop. Excellent
directions in the Rail Fan Guide showed that there was a dirt road that
takes you right into the middle of the loop. A peek through the lower
tunnel showed a green signal for our manifest train. Westbound trains
travel clockwise on the loop, starting on the upper track and winding
their way down to the lower. We hoped that our manifest would be long
enough to cross over itself. The train appeared, and we took photos of it
going over the bridge. The front door of the locomotive was open, and
there was someone sitting in the doorway with a camera.
We needn't have worried about the train being long enough. The
train crossed over itself, and continued to do so for quite some time. It
was quite spectacular being surrounded on all sides by a single train!
Now I know how people feel at Tehachapi.
After the last cars had passed, we climbed back up to the car and
drove on to Keddie Wye. We arrived to find an eastbound waiting in the
siding at Keddie for our westbound to pass. We set up shop directly over
the tunnel, overlooking the Wye. Our train eased slowly onto the wye,
giving us plenty of time to take photos. We tried running to the other
side of the tunnel to catch the locomotives again passing between the two
tunnels that are there (only a few hundred yards apart), but arrived after
the locomotives had plunged into the second tunnel.
Now it was just a matter of getting back to the car and chasing
the train through the canyon. Because of the recent rain, the river was
very violent, and there were many, many waterfalls -- beautiful! We found
a few opportune spots to pull off and grab a few photos. Tom also took a
few pix of the lumber mill (abandoned?) in the canyon. It has an
old-fashioned sawdust burner, and all kinds of neat little buildings --
ideal for Tom's model railroad.
After a few more photos, we decided that it would be dark soon,
and the rain was getting to be too much. We drove the rest of the way
without waiting for our train. Too bad -- there were some spectacular
photos to be had, due to the huge waterfalls and the raging river. Next
time, perhaps.
We passed an eastbound near the western end of the canyon, and
caught up with the TOFC train shortly thereafter.
After that, dinner in Oroville, and the journey home. I hope we
remembered to remove the lens caps from the cameras... if the photos turn
out, perhaps I'll digitize a few and post them somewhere. It's a pity we
didn't get to follow the E9's, but we had a good time anyway.