Macedonia (third world)
Luben I. Todorovski
>
> Well I could not figure how to use part of the Duskos text in here:( Well,
> anyway Dusko in your latest posting you mention that Macedonia might be on the
> way of joining the Thirld World Countries. I am sorry, but Macedonia is a
> Thirld World Country. It is kind of a long story, but to make it short, my
> housemate in college, mentioned that her uncle was "recently" in Macedonia.The
> worst part was that her uncle is fact is working for banks that specilizes in
> issuing loans to THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES. So he visited Macedonia.
> You can imagine how I felt.....but unfortunatly we are there....
>
> Ciao,
> Gregor
>
Macedonia being third world country is nothing new. Former YU was
considered somthing between third world country and east block
country never even close to the first world... This applies to
all of ours neighbours. The problem is in the fact that there
are no signs that Macedonia is improving it's position (so far).
The problem with the "gang" of taxi drivers is not a difficult
one neither requires lots of $$$ to be solved. Only little bit
of culture and adequate regulations. The fact that there is not
a bus service from the airport to the city is... I don't know what to
say. The enterprise Skopski Aerodrom is one of the most profitable
in the country. There were political "struggles" who is going to
be it's menager (I think that the former Comunist Youth President and
now "razbira se" liberal was the lucky one). Money was and is not
a problem, somebody's interest or irresponsibility, that should be
the answer. Macedonia can afford a bus service from Petrovec to
Skopje, even being a third world country. The problem is that
the Macedonian political system is one of the low level
third world country. There is another gang more powerful and
harmful that the one at the Petrovec Airport. Look for them in
Sobranie....
So God save Macedonia:
Bube
Nikola Ratko Mizo
front of our computers, and practically bullshit about it. Why don't
we as model citizens, that know what an airport should look like do
someething about it and change it. Yes, now you would say that the
Petroveec airport in Skopje is one of the worst airports in the
world, and that it is so because it was ran by a former youth party
leader, and that our government is crab, and that they makes us be a
third world country and so on. So the answer would be to change the
Government, change Macedonia's leadership (the old-new
establishment), and put somebody more prospective and intelegent. A
person that has not yet stolen money from the Country (People), and
would be honest enough to limiit himself to a smaller amount than the
previous ones took.
Yes, come on and wake up people, live in Macedonia for God sake,
and see what the life is all about. Don't look at the crowded bars,
and discoteques, look at the people that don't have the money to feed
their chiildren and their selves. Also take a look at the
unemployment rate and the purchasing power, and you will
understand why Macedonia is a third world country. In my opinion,
people who don't live there, don't think about living there and come
there once a year (nothing personal), should either not talk about
Macedonia's problems, or do something about it. Since I don't see
anybody doing anything about it, let's just stop this discussion and
let it be, or at least belive that once in the near future Macedonia
can catch up with the world.
And please for once talk about things that you like about
Macedonia, things that make you proud of your 'fatherland.'
Nikola
P.S. I rarely write something here, but right now I'm really pissed
off.
Norman Bates
> And please for once talk about things that you like about
>Macedonia, things that make you proud of your 'fatherland.'
>
>
> Nikola
>
>P.S. I rarely write something here, but right now I'm really pissed
>off.
>
Why should you be pissed off, Nikola? How do you improve without self
examination? Is it better to go on and lie to ourselves about our greatness
because of the great contributions we gave to the world 3,000 years ago
(like our "neighbors" to the south?) Or is it better to continually
self-examine yourselves and work toward making improvements (like the
Americans and the Japanese?)
Based on the lifestyle I enjoy here, the latter seems to be the better
approach. Just what would be so wrong with working towards western
standards in products and services? An environment which is hospitable to
foreigners ultimately will produce more investment; investment will produce
prosperity.
Improvements in all modes of travel have been very important to the economic
development of an area. Improvement of railroads, highways and airports
should be a top priority for the Republic. Laws protecting investment and
private property rights should also be a number one priority.
As I have said before, the our ultimate ticket to prolonged independence is
economic prosperity. Hiding your head in the sand and pretending all is
well will surely spell economic and national doom.
Nikola, you remind me of my uncle. Last month, when we showed him the
National Geographic article on Macedonia, he got pissed off because all they
showed in the pictures was Muslims and Gypsies. Lighten up. The best way
to change reality is to recognize it and deal with it!
DannyK
THE TRUE MACEDONIAN
Marjan Z. Trajkovski
> And please for once talk about things that you like about
>Macedonia, things that make you proud of your 'fatherland.'
>
>
> Nikola
>
>P.S. I rarely write something here, but right now I'm really pissed
>off.
>
muabeti. Me cudi zosto site sakame da odime vo nasata tatkovina
a od koga ke se vratime vo SAD, Kanada, Avstralia itn. ja svrtuvame
politikata i se izrazuvame so naj neubavi zborovi. Ako nemate nesto
dobro da kazite za nasata Makedonija, po arno ke bide da si
zacutime. Bogami, me rasplakavte:(
Pozdrav do site,
Marjan ---Makedonec od Kumanovo---
Marjan Z. Trajkovski
>At 10:05 AM 4/19/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>Macedonia, things that make you proud of your 'fatherland.'
>> Nikola
>As I have said before, the our ultimate ticket to prolonged independence is
>economic prosperity. Hiding your head in the sand and pretending all is
>well will surely spell economic and national doom.
>DannyK
>THE TRUE MACEDONIAN
Hi Danny!
Since we agree on the prosperity thing, I would like to ask, what are
we people of good fortune doing to help change things in our beloved
fatherland? Do we just sit around and cry on our keyboards? Can't we the
supposedly more enlightened people;^] come up with some way to help?
I was there not to long ago, I didn't have bad experiences. No, my head is
not stuck in the sand, I just prefer to see the good side of things and
not dwell on the bad. Lord give me the strength to eccept the things I
can't change and the wisdom to change those things that I can.(or
something like that) What good has all the griping done? Did somebody
send the complaints
to the "VLADA"? How about the Police, cab company, or any body else?
Pardon me Danny , but I have to go find my rose tinted glasses:-)
Marjan ---The optimistic Macedonian---
Boris Docevski
RELAX, people...Things are getting better! Otherwise, will someone
please explain to me the fact that three (not one, but three) major
financial papers (actually, one magazine and two papers) wrote long, very
positive, and full of praise articles about Macedonia and its economic
future? :-)
Just read the "Financial Times" and the "Economist" (both of London),
and the "Wall Street Journal" (of New York), and see what they had to say
recently about it...
Boris Docevski (bd...@cornell.edu)
Section of Genetics and Development
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853, USA
http://www.isc.rit.edu/~bvs4997/Macedonia
http://www.cs.rit.edu/~bvs4997/faq
http://worldmusic.com/lebisol
Breakdown
said? What news did you actually add to the already existing sherade? :-)
As if we didn't know this, and thanks for clarifying it to us... Hm, let
me think back.. this has been discussed on here like.... N times? how
many, anyone recount?
It's not because people do not care so much, as it is because there is
no opportunity to act... There is opposition in our country that keeps
trying to act to improve Macedonia in any regard possible, and they are
being shut down by the commies and by strong national propaganda of
proclaiming those who really care, pro-Bulgarian, pro-whatever, anything
but *Macedonian*... There has also been unfounded rumors for a while in
Macedonia that the leader of VMRO-DPMNE was institutionalized (as in,
sanitarium, and u know who goes there...)... They(the current
corruption) do not allow any slack... It's kind of a 'dictatorship'.. or
an indirect 'dictatorship' and favoritism among the current political
leaders... You only achieve change if and only if, it befits them and
they like it, and if possibly benefits a certain few individuals, and
not the nation as a whole.... kind of egotistical, if u ask me.
And government can not be just changed out of the blue.. They own the
god damn police... Any attempt, and your ass will be so whipped, you
won't even remember what hit you... It will either take some fair
elections, or a civil war possibly to overthrow them, in the *worst
case*, of course. etc.etc.etc... you all know by now what the story is.
Cheers,
Martin
> And please for once talk about things that you like about
> Macedonia, things that make you proud of your 'fatherland.'
>
>
> Nikola
>
Nikola Ratko Mizo
>
> >Macedonia, things that make you proud of your 'fatherland.'
> >
> >
> > Nikola
> >
> >P.S. I rarely write something here, but right now I'm really pissed
> >off.
> >
>
> examination? Is it better to go on and lie to ourselves about our greatness
> because of the great contributions we gave to the world 3,000 years ago
> (like our "neighbors" to the south?) Or is it better to continually
> self-examine yourselves and work toward making improvements (like the
> Americans and the Japanese?)
So we should strive to be Americans or Japanese, and self-examine
ourselves.
> Based on the lifestyle I enjoy here, the latter seems to be the better
> approach. Just what would be so wrong with working towards western
> standards in products and services? An environment which is hospitable to
> foreigners ultimately will produce more investment; investment will produce
> prosperity.
Yes, I'm really happy for you and your lifestyle. And have you ever
thought who would invest in Macedonia. Don't you think that Macedonia
was, at least to some other countries a better place to invest until
recently, but it lacks the market. And if you have recently traveled
around Europe you would have been aware of the fact that Macedonia is
a hyper-expensive country.
> Improvements in all modes of travel have been very important to the economic
> development of an area. Improvement of railroads, highways and airports
> should be a top priority for the Republic. Laws protecting investment and
> private property rights should also be a number one priority.
Yes, retoric again. I spy with my little eye see something on ???????
>
> As I have said before, the our ultimate ticket to prolonged independence is
> economic prosperity. Hiding your head in the sand and pretending all is
> well will surely spell economic and national doom.
>
Yes, I'm not saying you're wrtong, but I want to tell you that you
should try and do something about it, ideas are cool, but rarely
someone lives on them. Even Marx was fed by Engels, or they don't
teach you that in the States.
> Nikola, you remind me of my uncle. Last month, when we showed him the
> National Geographic article on Macedonia, he got pissed off because all they
> showed in the pictures was Muslims and Gypsies. Lighten up. The best way
> to change reality is to recognize it and deal with it!
Ain't that cool, I like that, you're uncle must be a great person.
When was the last time you've dealt with reality in Macedonia. Please
don't tell me what to do 'cause you sound too much like an American.
Yes, but of course, they know all the solutions in the world.
Prosperity, economic development, what else; open your eyes seize the
day, and try on your own to change something, and then call me up and
tell me how it was. By the way don't do it anywhere, do it in
Macedonia and I'll be the first to congratulate you.
Nikola
Luben I. Todorovski
> To all those who wrote gruesome things in this thread:
>
> RELAX, people...Things are getting better! Otherwise, will someone
> please explain to me the fact that three (not one, but three) major
> financial papers (actually, one magazine and two papers) wrote long, very
> positive, and full of praise articles about Macedonia and its economic
> future? :-)
> Just read the "Financial Times" and the "Economist" (both of London),
> and the "Wall Street Journal" (of New York), and see what they had to say
> recently about it...
>
Boris:
Bi te zamolil ako mozzess da napissess koi izdanija na Economist,
Wall Street Jurnal i Financial Times gi imaat objaveno artiklite.
Blagodaren:
Bube
Daniel K Balaloski
> So we should strive to be Americans or Japanese, and self-examine
> ourselves.
They must be doing something right. Look at the rest of Asia and then look at
Japan. Look at the US 100 years ago and look at it today.
> Yes, I'm really happy for you and your lifestyle. And have you ever
> thought who would invest in Macedonia. Don't you think that Macedonia
> was, at least to some other countries a better place to invest until
> recently, but it lacks the market. And if you have recently traveled
> around Europe you would have been aware of the fact that Macedonia is
> a hyper-expensive country.
But that is the point you see. You have to take preliminary steps to make the
place conducive to investment. You know, here in the US states are always
competing against each other to land new factories and business facilities.
They build freeways, lessen restrictions, pay to train the employees, pass
special legislation, and give tax rebates to companies that want to set up shop
just to attract new companies to the area. And, they do it in relatively quick
order.
How hospitable is the Macedonian government or the Macedonian people to outside
investors?
> > Improvements in all modes of travel have been very important to the economi
> > development of an area. Improvement of railroads, highways and airports
> > should be a top priority for the Republic. Laws protecting investment and
> > private property rights should also be a number one priority.
>
> Yes, retoric again. I spy with my little eye see something on ???????
Well if you prefer to bury your head in the sand so be it. If you look at the
largest and most prosperous cities and states they all have good
transportation. That is essential for moving goods and services.
> Yes, I'm not saying you're wrtong, but I want to tell you that you
> should try and do something about it, ideas are cool, but rarely
> someone lives on them. Even Marx was fed by Engels, or they don't
> teach you that in the States.
You are correct. Ideas are just hot air, execution is what matters. But, tell
me, Nikola, how many ideas are really original. Most great achievements build
on somebody elses' ideas. If I were King of Macedonia I would absolutely look
at the economic successes in the world to see what they did to get where they
are. Then I would do the same thing. But I'm not, so its kind of hard for
somebody to have an impact.
> Ain't that cool, I like that, you're uncle must be a great person.
> When was the last time you've dealt with reality in Macedonia. Please
Oh you are so right Nikola. Now what are you saying. Because many people in
Macedonia actually really do have a disdain for Muslims and Gypsies, that to
you must be negative. And following your logic, since it is negative we cannot
express our feelings can we, because they reflect badly on Macedonia, right?
Ok I will accept your party line Nikola. All Macedonians love being part of a
multicultural society and love every single Albanian and Gypsie just like they
love their own children. And Macedonia is also the best and most prosperous
country in the balkans. Happy now? Do you feel better now? Let's just keep
chanting lies that make us feel good, just like the communists did. While we
are feeling good about ourselves, those that really don't can pass us up on the
road to prosperity.
> don't tell me what to do 'cause you sound too much like an American.
> Yes, but of course, they know all the solutions in the world.
> Prosperity, economic development, what else; open your eyes seize the
> day, and try on your own to change something, and then call me up and
> tell me how it was. By the way don't do it anywhere, do it in
> Macedonia and I'll be the first to congratulate you.
No, my life is in the United States Nikola. My immigrant parents' lives are
here as well. Why would I want to beat my brains against the wall over there
when the same efforts here will yield much higher rewards? And that is exactly
my point! Unless they are stupid, nobody that can help Macedonia is going to
martyr himself to do so. Make things more hospitable for people over there and
the intellectual and financial capital will naturally flow there. It's
basically the old law of WIIFM: "What's in it for me!"
And if I sound like an American, well thank you very much. I am very proud to
be a part of the GREATEST COUNTRY both on the face of this earth and in ALL OF
HISTORY. This country has led the world economically, militarily,
technologically and in human rights. This country led the world in the
abolition of slavery. This is also the first country that has tried to open
its arms to its minorities. This country was the first to send somebody to the
moon. And, this country was the FIRST IN HISTORY to basically conquer the
World (twice) and then hand it back to the people it conquered. What other
country can match these achievements?
Where does Macedonia or any other balkan country lead the world? Poverty?
Abortions? Agricultural production? Slivovitz production? Buildings
destroyed by bombs? Nuclear waste contamination? Nationalist hotheads?
Oppression of minorities? It is only my hope that my fatherland can learn a
little something from people that know how to do many things (but not
everything) the right way! But thats okay, as long as we are all saying good
things about ourselves everything will be fine!
Now you can try to emulate a few of the examples that have been set for you
(US, Hong Kong, Singapore, Korea, Taiwan) or you can just continue to be led
around by those great economic powerhouses Serbia, Bulgaria, Russia and Greece.
DannyK
Boris Docevski
> Boris:
> Bi te zamolil ako mozzess da napissess koi izdanija na Economist,
>Wall Street Jurnal i Financial Times gi imaat objaveno artiklite.
Najnovoto izdanie na Economist, a napisite od Wall St. Journal i Fin.
Times bea dadeni pred malce vreme i v MAK-NEWS (MILS supplements)...
Zborot mi beshe, ne e se tolku crno, a idninata ima moshne dobri
mozhnosti da ni bide rozova, so malku trud i rabota... :-)
Kiril Nikola Vidimce
bez da se obrakjam na toa koj shto rekol vo ovoj thread, samo
bi sakal da zabelezham neshto za shto mozhebi kje go acknowledge-uvaat
onie koi shto se na listata vo poslednive 1.5-2 godini. pretpostavuvam
deka ova e tema na koja shto chesto se navrakja[me] na makedon,
no, interesno e da se primeti deka kako i esenta '94, i ovoj pat
se voochuva razlika na mislenjata voglavnom na tri oski:
1) onie koi shto se vo ili prilichno blisku do Makedonija (vo
sluchajov Mizo, koj shto e vo AUBG i pretpostavuvam e vo Skopje
sekoi 2-3 nedeli or something), 2) onie koi shto se nadvor od
Makedonija i toa "malku" podaleku (USA) i 3) onie koi shto mnogu-mnogu
i ne zhiveele vo Makedonija i vekje kompletno go imaat izgubeno
(ili nikogash ne ni go imale) chustvoto za realnost about what
Macedonia is all about.
ona shto jas go gledam kako deja vu e deka onie prvite (pod 1)
povtorno se konfliktiraat so vtorite (2), a osobeno tretite (3).
i shto e najinteresno, ovie pod 2) i 3) nikako da se otkazhat od
nekoi ili romanticharski pogledi za ona shto mozhe da se napravi
vo Makedonija, ili pak plukachki pogledi za ona shto e Makedonija.
lets face it - if you are not there, there is not too much that
you can do about it. if you just stand from aside and preach about
it, you cant do too much other than irritate the ones that are
still in there (or in the closest area).
pred nekoj den bev potseten na ona shto jas go kazhuvav za makedonija
na makedon pred 1.5 godina. i den-denes stojam zad golem del shto
go kazhav back then, no, so edna razlika - teshko deka kje se
osmelam da go kazham istoto deneska bidejkji ne mislam deka go
imam pravoto toa da go napravam. toa pravo im go prepushtam na
onie shto se tamu i shto direktno gi chuvstvuvaat posledicite od
zhiveenje vo makedonija. za site onie "pametni glavi" koi shto
mislat deka vo tri rechenici mozhat da kazhat shto treba da se
napravi vo makedonija za da se obezbedi "prosperitet i napreden
zhivot" - GO THERE and try to implement your ideas. pa posle
kje diskutirame.
ova osobeno vazhi za nekoi shto se potpishuvaat kako "True Macedonian"
i slichni budalashtini, nekoi shto ochigledno mnogu i ne znaat shto
znachi da se bide True Macedonian. sonovite za biduvanje sin na
Alexander The Great se nishto povekje od sonovi. wake up, the cruel
reality is somewhere out there...
pozdrav,
KV
--
PS ochigledno se zanesov malku i doprev povekje temi negoli shto
bea spomenati vo ovoj thread. please bare with me.
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Kiril N. Vidimce, Comp.Sci. - "I hear and I forget, |
| PO Box 3167, MS State, MS 39762 - "I see and I remember, |
| vk...@erc.msstate.edu - I do and I understand." |
| vk...@gtlug.org - - Confucious |
+ http://www.erc.msstate.edu/~vkire/ -------------------------+
Norman Bates
>Makedonija i toa "malku" podaleku (USA) i 3) onie koi shto mnogu-mnogu
>i ne zhiveele vo Makedonija i vekje kompletno go imaat izgubeno
>(ili nikogash ne ni go imale) chustvoto za realnost about what
>Macedonia is all about.
That's very funny because there are many people who think the newer
immigrants are the ones that have lost the notion of what being a Macedonian
is all about. If there is any difference, it is because I was raised by
people from a selo that had staro-crajski conservative values. Many would
say that is the element that is missing there today. I seriously doubt that
my mom's peers in school grew up to have 130 abortions per 100 births like
they do now. (Don't worry Greece used to have 200 per 100 but those
"decadent" Americans had a lot less.)
>lets face it - if you are not there, there is not too much that
>you can do about it. if you just stand from aside and preach about
>it, you cant do too much other than irritate the ones that are
>still in there (or in the closest area).
So in other words you are saying "The Truth Hurts." Kill the messenger?
And we are going to cry the same way the Greeks do when you remind them that
Macedonia was given to them by the Great Powers.
>pred nekoj den bev potseten na ona shto jas go kazhuvav za makedonija
>na makedon pred 1.5 godina. i den-denes stojam zad golem del shto
>go kazhav back then, no, so edna razlika - teshko deka kje se
>osmelam da go kazham istoto deneska bidejkji ne mislam deka go
>imam pravoto toa da go napravam. toa pravo im go prepushtam na
>onie shto se tamu i shto direktno gi chuvstvuvaat posledicite od
>zhiveenje vo makedonija. za site onie "pametni glavi" koi shto
>mislat deka vo tri rechenici mozhat da kazhat shto treba da se
>napravi vo makedonija za da se obezbedi "prosperitet i napreden
>zhivot" - GO THERE and try to implement your ideas. pa posle
>kje diskutirame.
Unlike communist Eastern Bloc, I am in AMERICA!!! You can say and think
whatever you want. You don't like my ideas? DON'T READ THEM. IT'S AS
SIMPLE AS THAT!!! DON'T READ AND DON'T RESPOND! But I am still going to
say them.
As to implementation of ideas, you in your own little way help to prove why
it is so hard for one who wants to. Central control, march in lock-step,
toe the party line. Until there is a little more open mindedness, the place
will not prosper. As for going over there to implement my ideas, that is a
COMPLETE JOKE. Why would I want to go over there, fight with prosti and
budali and beat my head against the wall when I can get much greater rewards
here for the same amount of effort and no pains-in-the-asses getting in my
way any time I try to do something? Give me one good reason.
If it hurts you so much that people are criticising your homeland, then the
answer is simple: YOU GO THERE AND IMPLEMENT YOUR IDEAS. Let's see how far
you get and then come back and show me how stupid I am. If your homeland
was as great as you want to pretend it is, then what are my parents, aunts,
uncles, etc. doing here? I'm told they were considered a wealthy family in
their selo. My dad went to "college" in Skopje. Why would they leave this
life of "luxury" to come here and work in factories, as construction workers
and deal with drunken low-lifes in the bar business if Macedonia is so
perfect and prosperous?
Why is my father's life better as a construction worker here than it ever
would have been as a "director" in one of those Macedonian companies. Or
how about the Serbian lawyer I know who installs ceramic tiles for a living
here? Why is he here? Furthermore, why has there been an endless stream of
people leaving since the late 1800's? And lastly, what are *you* doing
here? I'm sure you can get a fine education in Skopje. Don't you run the
risk of becoming "too American?" (Heaven forbid)
Its not my fault that Macedonia is categorized as a third-world country.
And if it is considered third world, I would argue that the wrong people are
the ones that left "your" country. Maybe we "Americanci" are the ones that
should have stayed.
So what do you people want? If you sit here and make harmless suggestions
we hurt your precious little feelings and you run home and cry about those
detached "Americanci" who think they know everything. If we go over there
and try to do something we are seen as opportunistic carpet-baggers or
pechalbari (I believe that is the proper use of the word) trying to take
advantage of the poor helpless oppressed proletariat masses in Macedonia.
SO MAKE UP YOUR MINDS!!! You are jealous and it shows.
>ova osobeno vazhi za nekoi shto se potpishuvaat kako "True Macedonian"
>i slichni budalashtini, nekoi shto ochigledno mnogu i ne znaat shto
>znachi da se bide True Macedonian. sonovite za biduvanje sin na
>Alexander The Great se nishto povekje od sonovi. wake up, the cruel
>reality is somewhere out there...
Jas znam shto je da se bide Makedonec. Jas ovde sum roden i ovde porastiv,
i samo po nashe zborvav do pet godini. Jas oidov na elementary school bez
da znam engliski and culturally still have very strong ties to nashite, so
don't give me this crap about who is Macedonian and who isn't. And,
besides, who the hell do you think you are to question who is Macedonian and
who isn't?
Of course, maybe you are the one who does not know what it is to be a
Macedonian. Macedonians are very hard-working industrious people. Most who
come to America end up doing fairly well for themselves with no help from
anybody else. In fact, I have doubts about the Macedonian character of
somebody who wants to wallow in national insecurity and self-pity. The
Macedonians I know don't feel sorry for themselves.
Furthermore, you have never met me nor do you know who I am. For all you
know, I could be a very successful person who might be in a position to do
the very things you say. Is it such a good idea to turn these "Americanci"
away? For all you know, I might be Michael Illich's son, worth about $500
million and could do just the things you say. Or I might be in a financial
position with a Fortune 500 Company and could be involved in making these
kinds of reccommendations for where to invest (I was only a middle level
analyst but had direct access to the boss.) Or my cousin could be a sales
manager with a Japanese company looking for new opportunities (he is.) Or
maybe I know people who are involved in international trade (I do.) You
don't know a thing, yet you excoriate me because I am an "American."
Is your attitude the proper one to attract the type of people you want to
attract? The answer is an absolute no. If anything I know the attitudes of
you and a lot of Macedonians ALL TOO WELL. I know the hostilities to
outsiders, even if they actually are insiders. I know you people see
conspiracies in every corner.
And best of all, I know if you try to set up shop in Macedonia, you are more
likely to BE ROBBED BLIND than to make money! One of those "exporters" I
know is a friend of my cousin (who was born THERE). This guy lost his butt
in Macedonia and Serbia (mostly through damage and theft) and says he will
never do business there again. Same with others he knows. And you say I
don't know about conditions in Macedonia?
Let's see, you question my Macedonian qualifications. You insult me. You
try to shout people down because you don't like what they are saying.
Hmmm, you sound very much like a Greek. I am making you an honorary
Pan-Macedonian. Congratulations!
DannyK
*THE* *TRUE* *MACEDONIAN*, *ALWAYS*
P.S. You people are kind of acting like the blacks do in this country. A
black guy who is smart and is doing well in school is labeled an Uncle Tom,
or a sellout to whitey. There is a lot of pressure to "re-niggerize" (that
is a real word; used by the Wall Street Journal) him so he won't make the
people he left behind in the ghetto feel so bad. That is the same thing you
people do when you start saying people are "too American." Trying to
niggerize one of your own. But then again, that is the communist system
isn't it? Instead of pushing people to attain high levels of success they
pull down the prosperous to ghetto level. They may all be hungry, but at
least they feel good about themselves.
You can see where that attitude has gotten blacks. They blame Whitey,
Koreans, Vietnamese, Italians and the Jews for their problems. They blame
just about everybody but themselves.
Luben I. Todorovski
> Luben Todorovski napisha:
>
> > Boris:
> > Bi te zamolil ako mozzess da napissess koi izdanija na Economist,
> >Wall Street Jurnal i Financial Times gi imaat objaveno artiklite.
>
> Najnovoto izdanie na Economist, a napisite od Wall St. Journal i Fin.
> Times bea dadeni pred malce vreme i v MAK-NEWS (MILS supplements)...
> Zborot mi beshe, ne e se tolku crno, a idninata ima moshne dobri
> mozhnosti da ni bide rozova, so malku trud i rabota... :-)
>
>
Prvo fala Boris,
Dali napisite bea kompletno preneseti ili ima dodatni informacii
koi bi bile intereni?
Ssto e do rabotite, pa normalno bi bilo da se belezzi porast na
proizvodstvo, site golemi kapaciteti sega imaat dostap do surovini
i pazar. MK ke treba da belezzi znacitelen porast na proizvodstvo
za da se vrati na nivo od pred 5 godini (znacitelen bi znaccelo
nekade nad 20%). Vrakanjeto na nivo pred 5 god. voopssto nema
da znacci i nekoe "nivo" na razvoj. Ke treba posle toa da se
belezzi porast barem od 5% godissno za da mozzeme da bideme
zadovolni. Porastot na proizvodstvo od razmer koj e zabelezzan
poslednive meseci samo e pokazatel deka embargata se simnati,
a ne deka nessto bitno pozitivno se ima smeneto vo ekonomijata
na MK. Na primer Albanija ima zabelezzano porast na GNP minatata
godina od nekade 17% (ne sum bass siguren sigurno dvocifren), ssto
voobiccaeno bi bil pokazatel na nevoobiccaeno rasteccka ekonomija.
Site znaeme deka Albanija e daleku od toa iako ima eden od najgolemite
porasti na GNP vo Evropa. Pokazatelot e deka AL i BG lani izlegoa
od dlabokiot ssok od pred nekolku godini.
Nessto sliccno MK dozzivuva sega, samo ssto ssokot od pred nekolku
god. imasse ponessto druga priroda (imeno ekonomski embarga).
Dali MK go ima nadminato "problemite" svrzani so menuvanje na
ekonomskiot sistem? Porastot sto e zabelezan poslednive nekolku
meseci ne e indikator. Iako bi bilo seusste rano bilo kakov indikator
da e zabelezzliv moe e mislenje e deka mnogu ssto usste treba da
se menuva vo MK i vo ekonomskiot i politicckiot sistem.
Nekam da bidam razbran kako pesimist, a usste pomalce kako nekoj
ssto ne bi se raduval na progresot na MK. Moznosta da
se kritikuva otvoreno e edna od najdobrite strani na demokratijtat.
Mislam vo najgolem broj od nas ke se slozzi deka vo MK treba mnogu
raboti da se smenat, vkluccuvajki go i prevozot od Skopskiot
Aerodrom do Skopje. Rabotite treba da se smenat ne poradi nas
koi sme nadvor od MK, koga ke dojdeme doma da ni izgleda kako
vo Amerika (ccuvaj bozze MK takvo deredze da docceka), tuku
poradi tie koi zziveat tamu. Siromasstijata ne mozze da bide
izgovor, samo predstavuva dokaz deka nepostoi volja da se
nadmine na edinstveniot mozzen naccin, zasukuvanje rakavi
i gradenje na efikasen sistem.
Sistem koj ssto ke dozvoli najsposobnite da gi ressavaat rabotite
so najgolema mozzna odgovornost. Znam deka na onie od nas koi
bile aktivni vo Mladinskata, SKM, izvidnici i dr. sliccni gluposti
od Titovata era im paga tessko da svatat deka pretdsedatelstvuvanjeto
so ovie organizacii ne znaci i sposobnost i odgovornost za izvrssuvanje
na zadolzeniata koi lezzat pred eden upravnik na javno pretprijatie
(vo sluccajov pretprijatieto za Aero transport). Pozicijata znacci pred
se odgovornost, a ne vid na nagrada za "politicka podobnost".
Baranjeto od nekoi od nas znaci indikator deka rabotite ne rabotat
najdobro vo gore spomenatoto javno pretprijatie, a ne izlivi na
"razgalenost" na onie koi ja "imale" srekata da otidat vo USA ili nekade
vo svetot i da doagaat doma sekoi 3 godini.
Iskreno bi bil mnogu blagodaren, ako nekoj bi mi dal sugestija na
kako bi mozzel da pomognam da rabotite odat napred.
Da se vratam nazad vo MK?
Kazzi sto ke pravam tamu, mozzeme da se najdeme vo kafana pa da
kukame vo duet ili da si se falime kako sme si mnogu pametni i se
kako e OK, samo siromasstijava da nebesse. Pominav nekolku takvi god.
vo MK i nikade ne stignav nitu doprinesov mnogu
(a i pari za pienje seknaa i samo muaebetite
ostanaa). Naj sreken ke bev da sistemot vo MK mi dozvolesse da go
parvam ona za ssto najmnogu me biva i da si ostanev vo SK, a da ne
besneam vo ovaa pustelijava nareccena Texan farm land....
Ne se rabotite ni malce rozovi nitu tuka, no barem se ima volja i
postoi naccin... Kritikata ne e strassna, tuku e polezna...
Aj mnogu pozdravi:
Bube
Boris Docevski
>>[B.D]: Najnovoto izdanie na Economist
The week of April 6-12, to be exact.
>>, a napisite od Wall St. Journal i Fin.
>> Times bea dadeni pred malce vreme i v MAK-NEWS (MILS supplements)...
>> Zborot mi beshe, ne e se tolku crno, a idninata ima moshne dobri
>> mozhnosti da ni bide rozova, so malku trud i rabota... :-)
>[L.T.]: Prvo fala Boris,
No prob. :-)
>Dali napisite bea kompletno preneseti ili ima dodatni informacii
>koi bi bile intereni?
Napisite od Wall St. J. i Financial Times bea celosno preneseni v MILS,
a onoj od Economist jas sluchajno go zabelezhav v gorespomenatoto izdanie,
a dosega, kolku shto jas sum zabelezhal, ne e prenesen v MILS.
>Ssto e do rabotite, pa normalno bi bilo da se belezzi porast na
>proizvodstvo, site golemi kapaciteti sega imaat dostap do surovini
>i pazar.
Taka e. Porastot vo prvite 3 meseci godinava (sporedeni so minatiot
period) e 2%, spored statistiki koi bea objaveni v MILS pred nekoja nedela.
Zgora na toa, v istiot period, ne e zabelezhana inflacija!!! Ova
posebno me raduva. :-)
> MK ke treba da belezzi znacitelen porast na proizvodstvo
>za da se vrati na nivo od pred 5 godini (znacitelen bi znaccelo
>nekade nad 20%).
Poleka. Ima vreme do krajot na 1996. Ako ne 20%, togash barem 10% neka
bide, i pak arno kje e za pochetok.
>Vrakanjeto na nivo pred 5 god. voopssto nema
>da znacci i nekoe "nivo" na razvoj.
Se soglasuvam. No, da ni trgne rabotata leka-poleka godinava, and we'll
take it from there.
>Sistem koj ssto ke dozvoli najsposobnite da gi ressavaat rabotite
>so najgolema mozzna odgovornost.
I jas se nadevam na takvo neshto v Makedonija shto naskoro.
> Znam deka na onie od nas koi
>bile aktivni vo Mladinskata, SKM, izvidnici i dr. sliccni gluposti
Jas nikogash ne sum bil!!! I nikogash ne sum se ni pokajal... ;-)
>Iskreno bi bil mnogu blagodaren, ako nekoj bi mi dal sugestija na
>kako bi mozzel da pomognam da rabotite odat napred.
> Da se vratam nazad vo MK?
Hmmm...Jas, lichno, smetam deka site nie najvekje kje pomogneme na
Makedonija ako se dokazheme sekoj vo svoeto pole na rabota! Taka, na krajot
na kraishtata, i se stvora mokjno "lobi"...Na primer, pogledni gi Evreite v
US...Enough said. :-)
>Ne se rabotite ni malce rozovi nitu tuka, no barem se ima volja i
>postoi naccin... Kritikata ne e strassna, tuku e polezna...
Se soglasuvam...Kritiki sekogash se polezni, bidejkji ne teraat na
razmisluvanje...What a change from "ednoumie" od pred 1991... :-)
> Aj mnogu pozdravi
> Bube
Se najubavo i do tebe! :-)
Pozdrav od studenata Ithaca,
Boris Docevski (bd...@cornell.edu)
Section of Genetics and Development
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853, USA
http://www.isc.rit.edu/~bvs4997/Macedonia
http://www.cs.rit.edu/~bvs4997/faq
http://worldmusic.com/lebisol
Sinan Edil
Macedonia is a thirld world country? Yugoslavia was third world country,
and it is kind of obvious Macedonia is too (at least right now, which can
change in the future). I know a few businessmen who were trying to do
business with Macedonia but later discouraged due to the late payments of
the debts and etc. Macedonia should create a market to encourage foreign
investment because it does not have enough capital for a rapid growth at the
moment. Once the area gets stabilized politically, the US and EU will begin
their investments.
To:Dan, my man: Although I love you as my brother, you were wrong with many
things you said about the USA. I had enough history classes and researches
to support my ideas about the US, so I know what I am going to say right
now. The US never cared about human rights when they attacked to Vietnam,
invaded Central American countries or put an endless embargo on Iraq. What
about the racist policies of the US towards Blacks and Hispanics? The US
and Americans should stop critisizing other nations of human rights abuses
and first look at what they did during this century. They should also think
of the two atomic bombs they dropped on Japan which killed thousands of
innocent civilians.
The other thing, slavery came to an end LATER than any European nation, as a
matter of a fact, the US slavery(?) continued until 1960s. Maybe I
shouldn't have called that slavery but it was no different than slavery if
you can think of the discrimination in every imaginable part of society
(even in the North).
Pozdrav,
Sinan
----------------------------------
Sinan Edil
University of Wisconsin-Madison
School of Business
Information Systems (MIS)
http://gondwana.caltech.edu/~sinan
Kiril Nikola Vidimce
DannyK The Great, "The Truest Macedonian" and similar crap,
tvojot odnos i tvoite poraki mozhat da bidat samo sramota za
Makedonija i dosega nemam videno nieden Grk da napravi
tolku negativna propanda za Makedonija kolku shto ti samiot
napravi za poslednive nekolku meseci. Tvojata poraka ne ni
zasluzhuva odgovor bidejkji se raboti za poraka od ochigledno
chovek koj shto pati od kompleks na pomala vrednost i go troshi
sopstvenoto i na tugjite vreme za da go dokazhe sprotivnoto.
vo sekoj sluchaj, ti odgovaram samo za ti razjasnam nekoi raboti
okolu moite stavovi koi ti kompletno gi misinterpretira.
> That's very funny because there are many people who think the newer
> immigrants are the ones that have lost the notion of what being a Macedonian
> is all about. If there is any difference, it is because I was raised by
> people from a selo that had staro-crajski conservative values. Many would
[pathetic racist-chauvinist-gop-christian-coalition-crap-deleted]
> >lets face it - if you are not there, there is not too much that
> >you can do about it. if you just stand from aside and preach about
> >it, you cant do too much other than irritate the ones that are
> >still in there (or in the closest area).
>
> So in other words you are saying "The Truth Hurts." Kill the messenger?
> And we are going to cry the same way the Greeks do when you remind them that
> Macedonia was given to them by the Great Powers.
prochitaj pogore - jas ne velam deka vistinata boli ili neshto
slichno, tuku potenciram deka ne mozhesh neshto da napravish
so toa shto naokolu kje zborish se' i seshto, osobeno bidejkji
i nemash vistinska pretstava za ona shto se sluchuva vo makedonija.
da ne govorime za toa shto nemash voopshto tochno chuvstvo zoshto
nekoi raboti vo makedonija se sluchuvaat tokmu onaka kako shto
se sluchuvaat. zatoa velam deka za da mozhe da se diskutira za
ona shto treba da se napravi vo makedonija - treba da se bide
tamu i da se vidi dali navistina ona shto tek taka lesno mozhe
da se istrese od rakav - deka toa istoto mozhe i da se implementira.
> >imam pravoto toa da go napravam. toa pravo im go prepushtam na
> >onie shto se tamu i shto direktno gi chuvstvuvaat posledicite od
> >zhiveenje vo makedonija. za site onie "pametni glavi" koi shto
> >mislat deka vo tri rechenici mozhat da kazhat shto treba da se
> >napravi vo makedonija za da se obezbedi "prosperitet i napreden
> >zhivot" - GO THERE and try to implement your ideas. pa posle
> >kje diskutirame.
>
> Unlike communist Eastern Bloc, I am in AMERICA!!! You can say and think
so what? stay there, nobody wants you outside of america (i hope).
> whatever you want. You don't like my ideas? DON'T READ THEM. IT'S AS
> SIMPLE AS THAT!!! DON'T READ AND DON'T RESPOND! But I am still going to
> say them.
same goes for you (and my messages)...
> As to implementation of ideas, you in your own little way help to prove why
> it is so hard for one who wants to. Central control, march in lock-step,
> toe the party line. Until there is a little more open mindedness, the place
> will not prosper. As for going over there to implement my ideas, that is a
> COMPLETE JOKE. Why would I want to go over there, fight with prosti and
> budali and beat my head against the wall when I can get much greater rewards
> here for the same amount of effort and no pains-in-the-asses getting in my
> way any time I try to do something? Give me one good reason.
kje se potrudam da ne komentiram za tvoite navredi (sprema tvoite
logiki, treba da recham - nashol koj da zbori, seljak, izbegal od
selo pa sega zbori za prosti; samo toa e tvoja logika, ne moja), i
kje te upatam povtorno da go prochitash gorecitiraniot [moj]
pasus - mnogu e lesno od strana da se sedi i da se davaat sekakvi
komentari. lesno e da sedish do pikaso i da mu komentirash kako
slikata kje bide ushte poubava ako nekoj del go napravi "takov i
takov". poentata e, mozhesh li ti da sednesh i da ja nacrtash taa
slika? a ako ti mislish deka nema vrednost toa delo da bide napravo
od tebe, od kade ti pravo istoto da go diktirash na nekoj drug?
> If it hurts you so much that people are criticising your homeland, then the
neli do vchera beshe i tvoja homeland?
> answer is simple: YOU GO THERE AND IMPLEMENT YOUR IDEAS. Let's see how far
nope. jas si se iskazhav - probav i ne biduva. zatoa i ne mislam
deka imam pravo da solam pamet sega na nekogo za toa koi idei i kako
treba istiot da gi implementira.
> you get and then come back and show me how stupid I am. If your homeland
> was as great as you want to pretend it is, then what are my parents, aunts,
dali rekov neshto za toa dali mojata tatkovina e great ili ne? samo
rekov deka nie mozheme da kritikuvame, ali ne mozheme da se postavuvame
na visoka pozicija i da solime pamet na onie shto se vo makedonija za
toa shto treba da se napravi. ako mislish da solish pamet - odi vo
makedonija pa na lice mesto napravi go toa.
> Hmmm, you sound very much like a Greek. I am making you an honorary
> Pan-Macedonian. Congratulations!
thanks. kako shto vekje rekov, ne sum videl nieden grk da pravi
tolku negativna propaganda za makedonija kako shto ti ja pravish
na internet (i.e. na alt.news.macedonia). its more than likely
that macedonia doesnt need any "angry white males".
> *THE* *TRUE* *MACEDONIAN*, *ALWAYS*
only in your dreams and shrink sessions.
KV
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