Nothing particular, just some comments.

[Stella Wesley-Flynn]

I've been going through the jes conversion notebook for upgrading from jes2
5.2 to os390/2.4 jes2
and basically I want to know what the guys in the labs have been smoking
and can I have some?

I mean, DOGCATs - Have they been attempting some weird and wonderful
cloning exercise?
CATABLE...is this a new kittylitter?
I've also found DILBERTS......this is a class cartoon strip although the
animated cartoon just doesn't quite hit the mark!
And JQHEADS , does this have some comparison to PETROLHEADS?

Excerpt from the migration notebook:
| The $DOGCAT macro provides an interface to find the address of a CAT. It
| is also recommended that the CAT obtained using $DOGCAT be used for
| finding queue heads rather than $JQHEADS.

| Migration Action: Use $DOGCAT wherever your code has used $CATABLE to
| compute the address of a CAT. Use the CAT found via $DOGCAT to access the

| job queue head for the class.

Stella Wesley-Flynn
HSDS - Leeds Software Services, S390 Team

[Joe Zitzelberger]

It is a big improvement over the days of the mandatory black suit & tie
FBI agent look, isn't it...

>>=Stella Wesley-Flynn at 8WE...@UK.IBM.COM said on 7/14/99 7:09=<<

-=Psychedelic Harry=-
http://ldl.net/~zberger/

The manual said "Windows 95 or better", so I used a Macintosh.

[Nix, Robert P.]

I always thought that a Cat's address was the address of its chosen human.
And I've never been able to use a Cat for anything, especially finding
things.
:{)
----
Robert P. Nix internet: nix.r...@mayo.edu
Mayo Clinic phone: 507-284-0844
200 1st St. SW page: 507-255-3450
Rochester, MN 55905
----
"You have to watch what you eat: Butter killed my Uncle...
of course, my Aunt had smeared it on the stairs, but still..."

[Daniel A. McLaughlin]

When I found the references to BERTNUM and a reference to DOGBERT, I
thought I was trapped in an alternate reality. Must be the offspring of the
Berkley
crowd that wrote Unix - grep?

[Metz, Seymour]

How is that any worse than IGDZILLA?

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

[Bruce Baumgart]

At 12:18 PM 7/14/99 -0400, Seymour wrote:
>How is that any worse than IGDZILLA?
>

That, at least, is a reasonable description of it.

Bruce Baumgart This space intentionally left blank.
baum...@inel.gov
Lockheed-Martin Idaho Tech

[Bruce Black]

"Metz, Seymour" wrote:
>
> How is that any worse than IGDZILLA?

The folklore says that the person responsible for that name was canned
by IBM.

--
Bruce A. Black
Senior Software Developer for
FDR, CPK, ABR, SOS, UPSTREAM, FATS/FATAR
Innovation Data Processing
973-890-7300
bbl...@fdrinnovation.com

[Scott Harder]

At this point in time, I think there is a direct correlation between SMS and
Godzilla. Fits to a tee!

Scott Harder
Advanced Software Products Group, Inc.
3185 Horseshoe Drive South
Naples, FL 34104
(800) 662-6090
Fax: (941) 649-6391
sco...@aspg.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU]On
> Behalf Of Metz, Seymour
> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 12:18 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>
>

> How is that any worse than IGDZILLA?
>

[Daniel A. McLaughlin]

I guess it's reflective of the generation busting out the code. Next we'll
be seeing
$POKEMON!!

[Curt Silveus]

Did you know that the author of Dilbert used to work on MVS systems at
PACBELL? I think in IMS.
Any of the information above/below is subject to: "Year 2000 Readiness
Disclosure under the Federal Year 2000 Information and Readiness
Disclosure Act"

-----Original Message-----
From: Stella Wesley-Flynn [SMTP:8WE...@UK.IBM.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 4:10 AM
To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU

Subject: Nothing particular, just some comments.

I've been going through the jes conversion notebook for upgrading from jes2
5.2 to os390/2.4 jes2
and basically I want to know what the guys in the labs have been smoking
and can I have some?

I mean, DOGCATs - Have they been attempting some weird and wonderful
cloning exercise?
CATABLE...is this a new kittylitter?
I've also found DILBERTS......this is a class cartoon strip although the
animated cartoon just doesn't quite hit the mark!
And JQHEADS , does this have some comparison to PETROLHEADS?

Excerpt from the migration notebook:

[Bruce Black]

when SMS first came out, IGDZILLA was about 1MB which made it a monster
among load modules. Today (OS/390 2.6) it is 1629K; I guess a couple of
eggs hatched.

But it is no longer the largest load module in MVS. In LPA there are 3
larger:
NAME DATA/MSG ALIASOF TTR MAIN MATCH LENGTH
EUVPDLL 030423 8466312
ECNDLL 009516 4829944
EUVSDLL 02D60B 1814024
I suspect these have something to do with Unix Sys Services (USS).

In linklib there are:
ARCCTL (hsm) 07D10B 3073104
BPXINPVT 085D04 2825904
EUVSSECD 064D1B 2706488
EUVDCECP 055508 2554960

I guess USS is the new champion memory hog.

[Shane Ginnane]

Have a look at SHASMAC ...
$BERT - HASP Block Extension Reuse Table
$DILBERT - Do it later BERT services
$DOGBERT -- Deliver or Get BERT

there are several $DILxxx and $DOGxxx members.

----- Original Message ----- :
:
: P.S. The $DOGBERT and $DILBERT macros came from
: a new control block called a BERT (not sure what the acronym
: stands for) but I guess the developers were having some fun.

[Rick Fochtman]

IIRC, it started life as the Houston Automatic Spooling Program; guess where!

Howard M Dean wrote:

> Nope, I believe JES2 is written back east in New York.
>
> Howard Dean
>
> Damc...@aol.com on 07/14/99 07:16:00 AM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU@Internet
> cc: (bcc: Howard M Dean/CA/KAIPERM)

[Russell, Alan ASA]

Actually, Houston Automatic Spooling Priority, according to OS/390 V2R4.0
JES2 Introduction.

[Edward J. Finnell,III , Ed]

Well, semi. ASP as originally delivered was probably from one of
New York houses. When Nasa was in full bloom, they were doing much
to push the edge of data processing for their vast telemtry, command
and control, and simulation needs.

They took one look at ASP and immediately begin to whittle. The desigh
objective was 50% and the working name was Half ASP. They succeeded and
many others decided if it was good enough for NASA it was good enough
for them. The shipped version was Houston Automatic Spooling Priority.

EDWARD J. FINNELL,III(EFIN...@OLDVM.UA.EDU)
ENTERPRISE SYSTEMS/PROJ. MGR.
http://www.ua.edu

[Rich Pierson]

According to the JES2 Migration Notebook, Chapter 1: DIL= Do It Later,
DOG = Deliver Or Get, BERT = Block Extension Reuse Table

Rich Pierson
Lockheed Martin Services
Operations and Support

-----Original Message-----
From: Howard M Dean [SMTP:Howard...@KP.ORG]
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 8:25 PM
To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.

And as JES2 at the IRS says: Many happy $RETURNS.

Howard Dean

P.S. The $DOGBERT and $DILBERT macros came from
a new control block called a BERT (not sure what the acronym
stands for) but I guess the developers were having some fun.

8WE...@UK.IBM.COM on 07/14/99 04:10:00 AM

To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU@Internet
cc: (bcc: Howard M Dean/CA/KAIPERM)

[Metz, Seymour]

Close: make that "Priority".

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Fochtman [SMTP:Rick.F...@BOTCC.COM]
> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 7:53 AM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>

[Phil Payne]

In message <990715.094858...@OLDVM.UA.EDU> IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU writes:

> Well, semi. ASP as originally delivered was probably from one of
> New York houses. When Nasa was in full bloom, they were doing much
> to push the edge of data processing for their vast telemtry, command
> and control, and simulation needs.

I think functional and usable HASP predated ASP by a couple of years.

I remember being deeply involved in an ASP feasibility study in 1971
or so. Nightmare. The bank (for such it was) decided to employ unique
device addresses on each of three 360/65s, but use a common system
generation. So on each system, 2/3rds of the devices generated didn't
exist. IBM had claimed that a 360/50 would act as support to three
360/65 mains. Within a week we knew it was the other way round.

Within the UK, I have to name the systems programming teams at Rolls
Royce and Rank Xerox for making _MAJOR_ contributions to ASP code. As
first shipped, only the concept was any good. I especially hated the
way the consoles rolled - didn't ASP development talk to DIDOCS
development _at_ _all_?

I don't think there was _any_ common code. HASP was essentially a
single monster CSECT.

--
Phil Payne
http://www.isham-research.demon.co.uk
Phone +44 385 302803 Fax +44 870 0883933

[Hall, Ken , ECSS]

This more or less coincides with my remembrance. First I saw of HASP that
I'm sure of was at either Brooklyn College or City College of NY in 1971/72
on a 360/50 (we were using a 2770 RJE station to them from my High School).
Brooklyn College MAY have been using it as far back as 1970 if memory
serves.

First time I saw ASP was at CUNY (City University of New York) in 1973 on a
370/168.

Obviously this doesn't mean they weren't around before that, but it somewhat
validates the time frames.

For the REALLY obscure, does anybody remember CRBE-20? Or CALL-OS? I still
have books on them around someplace...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Payne [SMTP:S390...@ISHAM-RESEARCH.DEMON.CO.UK]
> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 12:13 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>

[Bruce Black]

"Metz, Seymour" wrote:
>
> That's obscure? What about RUSH? Or RAX? Or the original name of Roscoe?

inquiring minds want to know!

[Scott Harder]

For anybody who started on TSO (like me - 1983), Roscoe was a pure pain to
use. I never could get used to it - mostly because we ran both. TSO was
always there for me to fall back on (or forward on, as the case may be). It
got so the only time I logged onto Roscoe was to see if I could - usually
the 1st step in troubleshooting some kind of user problem (rule in/out the
network).

Scott Harder
Advanced Software Products Group, Inc.
3185 Horseshoe Drive South
Naples, FL 34104
(800) 662-6090
Fax: (941) 649-6391
sco...@aspg.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU]On
> Behalf Of Metz, Seymour

> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 11:51 AM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>
>

> That's obscure? What about RUSH? Or RAX? Or the original name
> of Roscoe?
>

> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Hall, Ken (ECSS) [SMTP:KeH...@EXCHANGE.ML.COM]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 11:44 AM
> > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> >

[Metz, Seymour]

[Hall, Ken , ECSS]

Not to mention Wylbur, which CUNY ran alongside CALL-OS.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Harder [SMTP:Sco...@ASPG.COM]
> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 12:41 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>

> For anybody who started on TSO (like me - 1983), Roscoe was a pure pain to
> use. I never could get used to it - mostly because we ran both. TSO was
> always there for me to fall back on (or forward on, as the case may be).
> It
> got so the only time I logged onto Roscoe was to see if I could - usually
> the 1st step in troubleshooting some kind of user problem (rule in/out the
> network).
>
> Scott Harder
> Advanced Software Products Group, Inc.
> 3185 Horseshoe Drive South
> Naples, FL 34104
> (800) 662-6090
> Fax: (941) 649-6391
> sco...@aspg.com
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU]On
> > Behalf Of Metz, Seymour

[Rob C. Schramm]

... Remote Online System Communications for Office Environments ....

It seems like nobody likes poor ROSCOE...

I started on ROSCOE.. but curiously enough.. it's a lot easier to install an
operating system with TSO than with ROSCOE.

Rob Schramm
Fifth Third Bank
MVS Systems
(513)744-6831
<all comments are my own...>

> For anybody who started on TSO (like me - 1983), Roscoe was a
> pure pain to
> use. I never could get used to it - mostly because we ran
> both. TSO was
> always there for me to fall back on (or forward on, as the
> case may be). It
> got so the only time I logged onto Roscoe was to see if I
> could - usually
> the 1st step in troubleshooting some kind of user problem
> (rule in/out the
> network).
>

> > Behalf Of Metz, Seymour
> > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 11:51 AM
> > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> >
> >
> > That's obscure? What about RUSH? Or RAX? Or the original name
> > of Roscoe?
> >
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Hall, Ken (ECSS) [SMTP:KeH...@EXCHANGE.ML.COM]
> > >

[C. Todd Burrell]

I used Roscoe for about 6 years before I was hired by a shop that did not
have Roscoe. So now I am an ISPF/TSO person. However, IBM could learn a
few lessons from the Roscoe folks about good built in commands. And the
Roscoe editor beats ISPF's editor every time. I've had to write many REXX
execs and edit macros to enable me to do what came built in with Roscoe.

To each his own, I guess...

[Metz, Seymour]

WRAP.

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Black [SMTP:bbl...@FDRINNOVATION.COM]
> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 12:34 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>

> "Metz, Seymour" wrote:
> >
> > That's obscure? What about RUSH? Or RAX? Or the original name of Roscoe?
>

[Metz, Seymour]

That's what the acronym stands for, perhaps, but it's not the original name.

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob C. Schramm [SMTP:Rob.S...@53.COM]
> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 12:47 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>

[Metz, Seymour]

Wylbur may have had a klutzy syntax, but it could do things that non of the
other editors on MVS or VM could do; in fact, they still can't.

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hall, Ken (ECSS) [SMTP:KeH...@EXCHANGE.ML.COM]

> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 12:54 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>

[Curt Silveus]

Super Wylbur was even more super. Did you ever hear of INTERACT it had the
same syntax and was eventual bought by the WYLBUR staff? I work at a shop
for ( years that used it instead of TSO. Especially since it was easier
to REXX like code and run it intercatively. Towards they end they even
had a PANEL option.

Any of the information above/below is subject to: "Year 2000 Readiness
Disclosure under the Federal Year 2000 Information and Readiness
Disclosure Act"

[Curt Silveus]

Same with WYLBUR and INTERACT so much easier to use and al kinds of command
that did what it takes hundreds of lines to do in a CLIST.

Any of the information above/below is subject to: "Year 2000 Readiness
Disclosure under the Federal Year 2000 Information and Readiness
Disclosure Act"

-----Original Message-----
From: C. Todd Burrell [SMTP:tbur...@HARLAND.NET]
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 10:04 AM
To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.

[Metz, Seymour]

> Interact looked like the old SLAC Wylbur; it didn't have the enhancements
> that were present in SuperWylbur. Interact was bought out by OBS, whose
> Wylbur was also backlevel. AFAIK none of the original Wylbur staff ever
> worked for OBS. John and Roger started working on SuperWylbur but split up
> early on. Roger Developed NIH Wylbur and John developed SuperWylbur, both
> of which were head and shoulders above the other Wylbur variants.
> SuperWylbur is still on the market; I'm not sure whether NIH is still
> distributing NIH Wylbur.
>
> I don't find Wylbur syntax to be easier than REXX code, but I put up with
> it because of things like associative ranges, which none of the TSO
> editors have.

>
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
> -----Original Message-----

> From: Curt Silveus [SMTP:si...@pegasystems.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 1:55 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>

[Jeff Williams]

ROSCOE = Really Obscure System for Computer Online Entry

How do you like that one? ;-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Black [SMTP:bbl...@FDRINNOVATION.COM]

Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 12:34 PM
To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.

[Rob C. Schramm]

I think that there are some more obscure ones... I've never heard of MUSIC.

> ROSCOE = Really Obscure System for Computer Online Entry
>
> How do you like that one? ;-)
>

[Rob C. Schramm]

Writer Remote Access Protcol..
*Can you tell I'm guessing!?!?*

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Metz, Seymour [mailto:sm...@NSF.GOV]
> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 14:19
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>
>

> I like it, but it's wrong. The original name was WRAP. Who
> knows what that
> stands for?
>
> Tom, please don't spill the beans!

>
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Jeff Williams [SMTP:jef...@ATTACHMATE.COM]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 2:14 PM
> > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> >

> > ROSCOE = Really Obscure System for Computer Online Entry
> >
> > How do you like that one? ;-)
> >

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bruce Black [SMTP:bbl...@FDRINNOVATION.COM]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 12:34 PM
> > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> >

[Metz, Seymour]

[Tom Bishop]

Not very likely. Having installed and modified ASP in 1969/70 and HASP in
1971/72, I am convinced that the developers never talked to each other. The
basic structure and format of the two products was very different.

Thomas (Tom) J. Bishop
Information Technology Agency
City of Los Angeles, CA. 90012, USA
+1 213 847 3920
tbi...@ita.ci.la.ca.us

This message is intended only for the addressee. Any other use violates
copyright law.
Year 2000 Information and Readiness Disclosure Act of 1998: Information
contained herein may be "Year 2000 Readiness Disclosure" as defined by the
Year 2000 Information and Readiness Disclosure Act of 1998, (Public Law
105-271, 112 Stat. 2386, a U.S. statute), enacted on October 19, 1998.

>>> "Edward(Ed) J. Finnell,III" <EFIN...@OLDVM.UA.EDU> 07/15 7:40 AM >>>

Well, semi. ASP as originally delivered was probably from one of
New York houses. When Nasa was in full bloom, they were doing much
to push the edge of data processing for their vast telemtry, command
and control, and simulation needs.

They took one look at ASP and immediately begin to whittle. The desigh

[Metz, Seymour]

Isn't that MUSIC/SP these days? Anyone here from McGill that knows?

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob C. Schramm [SMTP:Rob.S...@53.COM]

> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 2:15 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>

> I think that there are some more obscure ones... I've never heard of
> MUSIC.
>

> > ROSCOE = Really Obscure System for Computer Online Entry
> >
> > How do you like that one? ;-)
> >

[Metz, Seymour]

Yes, and you're not even close. The W derives from Geograhy, not
functionality.

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob C. Schramm [SMTP:Rob.S...@53.COM]
> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 2:19 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>

> Writer Remote Access Protcol..
> *Can you tell I'm guessing!?!?*
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Metz, Seymour [mailto:sm...@NSF.GOV]

> > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 14:19
> > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> >
> >

> > I like it, but it's wrong. The original name was WRAP. Who
> > knows what that
> > stands for?
> >
> > Tom, please don't spill the beans!
> >

> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jeff Williams [SMTP:jef...@ATTACHMATE.COM]
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 2:14 PM
> > > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> > > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> > >

> > > ROSCOE = Really Obscure System for Computer Online Entry
> > >
> > > How do you like that one? ;-)
> > >

> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bruce Black [SMTP:bbl...@FDRINNOVATION.COM]

> > > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 12:34 PM
> > > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> > > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> > >

[Phil Payne]

In message <0D93FE5CA0BED11194CB...@nsfmail01.nsf.gov> IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU writes:

> Yes, and you're not even close. The W derives from Geograhy, not
> functionality.

Waterloo?

Just a guess.

[Patrick Falcone Digest]

Did ROSCOE in 79, loved it - also didn't know any better, went to TSO in
83, it was OK, doing COBOL "stuff". Got into capacity and performance
shortly thereafter and immediately realized at that time that ROSCOE was
much more resource efficient than TSO, especially since we were running a
IBM 3033 with 16 Mb. TSO chewed resources.

"C. Todd Burrell" <tbur...@HARLAND.NET> on 07/15/99 01:04:06 PM

Please respond to IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU>

To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
cc: (bcc: Patrick Falcone/USA/AIS/Support/AONCORP)

Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.

[Metz, Seymour]

> Wayne.

>
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
> -----Original Message-----

> From: Phil Payne [SMTP:S390...@ISHAM-RESEARCH.DEMON.CO.UK]
> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 4:06 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>

[rgilc...@bcidaho.com]

I used MUSIC back in school. Don't remember any of the commands - not a
one.

It seems to me it stood for something like McGill University System for
Interactive Computing

Don't quote me on that, it's been a few years.

We, too, are a ROSCOE shop. I don't care for it, I find it to be very
archaic. The users who have been here for years don't remember ROSCOE ever
being any other name. They do remember the DOS version and even something
called DOS-VOLLEY that was a better editor. If I had to stick a name on
ROSCOE's acronym, it would be something like:

Really Odd System in a Confusing Online Environment

just my $.02

----

Robyn Gilchrist
Sr. Systems Programmer
Blue Cross of Idaho
208.331.7395
rgilc...@bcidaho.com

If you see that there are four possible ways in which a procedure
can go wrong, and circumvent these, then a fifth way, unprepared for,
will promptly develop.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU]On

> Behalf Of Rob C. Schramm
> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 12:15 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>
>

> I think that there are some more obscure ones... I've never
> heard of MUSIC.
>

> > ROSCOE = Really Obscure System for Computer Online Entry
> >
> > How do you like that one? ;-)
> >

[Daniel A. McLaughlin]

MUSIC was from McGill University in Canada and worked in a VM environment.
Can't remember what all the rest of the letters stood for...

[Patrick Mullen]

Daniel A. McLaughlin a écrit:

> MUSIC was from McGill University in Canada and worked in a VM environment.
> Can't remember what all the rest of the letters stood for...

Check out http://MUSICM.McGill.CA/~MSI/HTTP/mus53.html

Still going strong it would seem....

Patrick Mullen
Montreal, Canada

[Mark Zelden]

"C. Todd Burrell" wrote:
>
> I used Roscoe for about 6 years before I was hired by a shop that did not
> have Roscoe. So now I am an ISPF/TSO person. However, IBM could learn a
> few lessons from the Roscoe folks about good built in commands. And the
> Roscoe editor beats ISPF's editor every time. I've had to write many REXX
> execs and edit macros to enable me to do what came built in with Roscoe.
>

Ditto!

I supported and used Roscoe at my first job. I loved it, and didn't
use TSO/ISPF much. Its editor is very powerful. I also liked being
able to do more than 2 things at once (long before logical ISPF
sessions). When I went to a shop that did not have it, I started
writing edit macros to simulate Roscoe functions (see my web site).
Just adding a "stack" command to the ISPF command table to bring up
another primary panel made things much easier.

I'm curious what Roscoe is like now since I haven't used it in about
12 years, but I doubt I would ever prefer it again.

--
+--------------------------------+--------------------------------+
| Mark Zelden | OS/390 Consultant |
| http://www.flash.net/~mzelden/ | 3D Business Solutions |
| mailto:mze...@flash.net | mailto:mze...@3dsolutions.com |
+--------------------------------+--------------------------------+

Check out my MVS utilities page at:
http://www.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html

[Patrick Mullen]

Mark Zelden a écrit:

> I supported and used Roscoe at my first job. I loved it, and didn't
> use TSO/ISPF much. Its editor is very powerful. I also liked being
> able to do more than 2 things at once (long before logical ISPF
> sessions).

I started off in a TSO/ISPF environment then moved to a shop running Software
AG's COM-PLETE. Now there was
a culture shock for you, but once I was used to the environment I found it
superior in many ways. It replaced CICS
as well as TSO/ISPF.

I'll never forget the IBM SE who told me that it was impossible to install an
MVS CBIPO using only COM-PLETE.
Naturally I proved him wrong!

Patrick Mullen
Montreal, Canada

[Rob C. Schramm]

Probably not a whole lot different from when you left. In typical fashion..
(slight vendor bash... to the sounds of a marching band) the amount of
developement seems to be more of an after-thought.. which I feel to be
unfortunate... but... I'm not in charge of it.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Zelden [mailto:mze...@FLASH.NET]
> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 16:34
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>
>

> "C. Todd Burrell" wrote:
> >
> > I used Roscoe for about 6 years before I was hired by a
> shop that did not
> > have Roscoe. So now I am an ISPF/TSO person. However, IBM
> could learn a
> > few lessons from the Roscoe folks about good built in
> commands. And the
> > Roscoe editor beats ISPF's editor every time. I've had to
> write many REXX
> > execs and edit macros to enable me to do what came built in
> with Roscoe.
> >
>
> Ditto!
>

> I supported and used Roscoe at my first job. I loved it, and didn't
> use TSO/ISPF much. Its editor is very powerful. I also liked being
> able to do more than 2 things at once (long before logical ISPF

[Bruce Baumgart]

At 04:48 PM 7/15/99 -0400, Patrick Mullen wrote:
>Mark Zelden a écrit:
>

>I started off in a TSO/ISPF environment then moved to a shop running Software

>AG's COM-PLETE. Now there was
>a culture shock for you, but once I was used to the environment I found it
>superior in many ways.
>

Until you had to take a SLIP trap. COM-PLETE replaced the FLIH address, but
din't have the bits set right to allow a mumble-mumble(PER?). I remember
having to alter memory and reset PSWs to allow mumble-mumble to happen.

Hey, it was a long time ago. Somethings are better off forgotten (or
repressed)

Bruce Baumgart This space intentionally left blank.
baum...@inel.gov
Lockheed-Martin Idaho Tech

[Daniel A. McLaughlin]

We once upon a time had a VS/1 guest under VM and maintained it without any
TSO, Wylbur, Roscoe, or any other interactive VS/1 package. Those were very
interesting times.

[Tom Marchant]

Oh, is *that* the deal? One of the old farts here likes to tell me that
TSO started out as WRAP, but he's not an MVS guy. I never used WRAP
either.

Tom Marchant

On Thu, 15 Jul 99 13:22:02 -0400 "Metz, Seymour" <sm...@NSF.GOV> wrote:
>
>WRAP.

>
>Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: Bruce Black [SMTP:bbl...@FDRINNOVATION.COM]
>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 12:34 PM
>> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>>

>> "Metz, Seymour" wrote:
>> >
>> > That's obscure? What about RUSH? Or RAX? Or the original name of Roscoe?
>>
>> inquiring minds want to know!
>>

[Joe Zitzelberger]

MUSIC == Multi-User System for Interactive Computing

>>=Rob C. Schramm at Rob.S...@53.COM said on 7/15/99 14:15=<<

>I think that there are some more obscure ones... I've never heard of MUSIC.
>
>> ROSCOE = Really Obscure System for Computer Online Entry
>>
>> How do you like that one? ;-)
>>

>> "Metz, Seymour" wrote:
>>
>> That's obscure? What about RUSH? Or RAX? Or the original
>> name of Roscoe?
>>
>> inquiring minds want to know!
>>
>

-=Psychedelic Harry=-
http://ldl.net/~zberger/

The manual said "Windows 95 or better", so I used a Macintosh.

[Metz, Seymour]

Not a chance; WRAP was more like CRBE than like TSO. Minimal editor, no
interactive execution of user programs.

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Marchant [SMTP:to...@TMARCHANT.CC.WAYNE.EDU]
> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 6:37 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>
> Oh, is *that* the deal? One of the old farts here likes to tell me that
> TSO started out as WRAP, but he's not an MVS guy. I never used WRAP
> either.
>
> Tom Marchant
>
> On Thu, 15 Jul 99 13:22:02 -0400 "Metz, Seymour" <sm...@NSF.GOV> wrote:
> >
> >WRAP.
> >
> >Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Bruce Black [SMTP:bbl...@FDRINNOVATION.COM]
> >> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 12:34 PM
> >> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> >> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> >>

> >> "Metz, Seymour" wrote:
> >> >
> >> > That's obscure? What about RUSH? Or RAX? Or the original name of
> Roscoe?
> >>
> >> inquiring minds want to know!
> >>

[Gary Duran]

ROSCOE - still in use here.

Interact? We had it and went to ROSCOE right before Cullinane was
sold.

Gary Duran
Supervisor of Systems and Operations
Fresno Unified School District

Jeff Williams wrote:
>
> ROSCOE = Really Obscure System for Computer Online Entry
>
> How do you like that one? ;-)
>

[Allan Beatty]

Remote OS Conversational On"Metz, Seymour" wrote:
>
> That's obscure? What about RUSH? Or RAX? Or the original name of Roscoe?
>

> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Hall, Ken (ECSS) [SMTP:KeH...@EXCHANGE.ML.COM]

> > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 11:44 AM
> > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> >

> > For the REALLY obscure, does anybody remember CRBE-20? Or CALL-OS? I
> > still
> > have books on them around someplace...

Remote OS Conversational Online Editor.
--
Allan Beatty
"Our God has no favorites" http://www.ames.net/uccmisu/

[Neil Stutz]

I'll guess. Wayne (State) Remote Access Program?

Neil Stutz

-----Original Message-----
From: Metz, Seymour <sm...@NSF.GOV>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU <IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, July 15, 1999 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.

>Yes, and you're not even close. The W derives from Geograhy, not
>functionality.
>

>Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: Rob C. Schramm [SMTP:Rob.S...@53.COM]

>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 2:19 PM
>> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>>

>> Writer Remote Access Protcol..
>> *Can you tell I'm guessing!?!?*
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Metz, Seymour [mailto:sm...@NSF.GOV]

>> > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 14:19
>> > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
>> > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>> >
>> >

>> > I like it, but it's wrong. The original name was WRAP. Who
>> > knows what that
>> > stands for?
>> >
>> > Tom, please don't spill the beans!
>> >

>> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>> >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: Jeff Williams [SMTP:jef...@ATTACHMATE.COM]
>> > > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 2:14 PM
>> > > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
>> > > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>> > >

>> > > ROSCOE = Really Obscure System for Computer Online Entry
>> > >
>> > > How do you like that one? ;-)
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: Bruce Black [SMTP:bbl...@FDRINNOVATION.COM]

>> > > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 12:34 PM
>> > > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
>> > > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>> > >

>> > > "Metz, Seymour" wrote:
>> > >
>> > > That's obscure? What about RUSH? Or RAX? Or the original
>> > name of Roscoe?
>> > >

[Robinson, J.O. Skip]

Another urban myth. No blood was shed. It's not your old man's IBM anymore.
Praise the Force.

The logic is simple. A DOG. A CAT. Obviously tails. Can a wag be far away?
The wag prevailed.

Praise the Force.

> ----------

> From: Bruce Black[SMTP:bbl...@FDRINNOVATION.COM]

> Sent: Wednesday, 14 July, 1999 9:51 AM

> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>
> "Metz, Seymour" wrote:
> >

> > How is that any worse than IGDZILLA?
>
> The folklore says that the person responsible for that name was canned
> by IBM.

[Phil Payne]

In message <55a5437b...@aol.com> IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU writes:

> MUSIC was from McGill University in Canada and worked in a VM environment.
> Can't remember what all the rest of the letters stood for...

The acronym was also used for the pre-SMF accounting package on OS/360.

Machine Usage Statistics & Information Collection?

Can't remember. SYS1.ACCTA and SYS1.ACCTB, if memory serves. Thirty
years ago ...

[Rick Fochtman]

I didn't think ANYONE would remember RAX. What FUN, on a 2848 ctlr and 2260
terminals! (sarcasm intended!) Our system locked up tight about twice a
week and required re-ipl. (360/44 w/commercial feature and universal inst.
set.)

"Metz, Seymour" wrote:

> That's obscure? What about RUSH? Or RAX? Or the original name of Roscoe?
>

> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Hall, Ken (ECSS) [SMTP:KeH...@EXCHANGE.ML.COM]

> > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 11:44 AM
> > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> >

[Patrick Mullen]

Rick Fochtman a écrit:

> I didn't think ANYONE would remember RAX.

To me RAX is the RSM address space block extension, a control block with some
interesting fields in it if you need to know how storage frames are being used.

Patrick Mullen
Montreal, Canada

[Hall, Ken , ECSS]

I used to work for a place that had ROSCOE for a while. When I first started
there, they had a great plan for distributing their workload.

Since TSO was considered a pig, their "Info Center" users, the "real"
end-users that did their work online, were going to work under VM,
application development users were going to be under ROSCOE, and only
Systems Programmers would use TSO.

First they found their "Info Center" users needed access to production data
and databases (IDMS in those days), and for various reasons it wasn't
practical to share or migrate the data between MVS and VM. The products
they were using, such as FOCUS and SAS, didn't work under ROSCOE, so guess
where they all went? Right! TSO!

Second, they found that the tools the developers wanted to use only ran
under TSO. ROSCOE eventually did come up with a kind of TSO "shell"
environment that worked after a fashion, but after the ump-teenth ROSCOE
crash that took down all the users at once, the noise level got high enough
that we just moved the developers to guess-where?

Even so, there were still people who mourned the loss of ROSCOE.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Zelden [SMTP:mze...@FLASH.NET]
> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 4:34 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>

[Metz, Seymour]

Well, I never had the "pleasure" of using RAX, but I also remember its
predecessor, QuickTRAN.

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Fochtman [SMTP:Rick.F...@BOTCC.COM]
> Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 8:35 AM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>

> I didn't think ANYONE would remember RAX. What FUN, on a 2848 ctlr and
> 2260
> terminals! (sarcasm intended!) Our system locked up tight about twice a
> week and required re-ipl. (360/44 w/commercial feature and universal
> inst.
> set.)
>
> "Metz, Seymour" wrote:
>
> > That's obscure? What about RUSH? Or RAX? Or the original name of Roscoe?
> >
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Hall, Ken (ECSS) [SMTP:KeH...@EXCHANGE.ML.COM]

> > > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 11:44 AM
> > > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> > > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> > >

[Jeff Williams]

It stands for... Multi-User System for Interactive Computing

NOT McGill University something something something

-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Mullen [mailto:patrick...@CGI.CA]
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 1:32 PM
To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.

Daniel A. McLaughlin a écrit:

> MUSIC was from McGill University in Canada and worked in a VM environment.

> Can't remember what all the rest of the letters stood for...

Check out http://MUSICM.McGill.CA/~MSI/HTTP/mus53.html

[Metz, Seymour]

Bingo! WSU is located in the heart of the cultural center of Detroit. Of
course, walk two blocks to either side and ... :-(

I was there when the computer center (CADPC) moved from Old Main to the
Admin building; the "new" computer center is no boarded up, and I have no
idea where the newer computer center is.

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Neil Stutz [SMTP:nst...@TALWEB.COM]
> Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 1:39 AM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>

> I'll guess. Wayne (State) Remote Access Program?
>
> Neil Stutz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Metz, Seymour <sm...@NSF.GOV>
> Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU <IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU>
> Date: Thursday, July 15, 1999 2:42 PM

> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>
>

> >Yes, and you're not even close. The W derives from Geograhy, not
> >functionality.
> >

> >Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----

> >> From: Rob C. Schramm [SMTP:Rob.S...@53.COM]

> >> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 2:19 PM
> >> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> >> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> >>

> >> Writer Remote Access Protcol..
> >> *Can you tell I'm guessing!?!?*
> >>
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: Metz, Seymour [mailto:sm...@NSF.GOV]

> >> > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 14:19
> >> > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> >> > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> >> >
> >> >

> >> > I like it, but it's wrong. The original name was WRAP. Who
> >> > knows what that
> >> > stands for?
> >> >
> >> > Tom, please don't spill the beans!
> >> >

> >> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> >> >
> >> > > -----Original Message-----

> >> > > From: Jeff Williams [SMTP:jef...@ATTACHMATE.COM]
> >> > > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 2:14 PM
> >> > > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> >> > > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> >> > >

> >> > > ROSCOE = Really Obscure System for Computer Online Entry
> >> > >
> >> > > How do you like that one? ;-)
> >> > >
> >> > > -----Original Message-----

> >> > > From: Bruce Black [SMTP:bbl...@FDRINNOVATION.COM]

> >> > > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 12:34 PM
> >> > > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> >> > > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> >> > >

> >> > > "Metz, Seymour" wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > That's obscure? What about RUSH? Or RAX? Or the original
> >> > name of Roscoe?
> >> > >

[Metz, Seymour]

That's OK, to me RAMAC is a disk drive about the size of a large
refrigerator, with 50 platters, three arms, 650 ms seek time and a capacity
of six million digits (100 cylinders, 100 tracks/cylinder, 60 words/track,
10 digits/word.)

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Patrick Mullen [SMTP:patrick...@CGI.CA]
> Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 9:00 AM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>

> Rick Fochtman a écrit:

>
> > I didn't think ANYONE would remember RAX.
>

[Metz, Seymour]

Was that true of the original, or only after IBM started distributing it?

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Williams [SMTP:jef...@ATTACHMATE.COM]
> Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 10:20 AM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>

[W. Jensen]

I too worked with Roscoe a looong a time ago. It will always have a place in
my heart, perhaps because it was the first major system I had responsibility
of. I think it had some advantages over TSO/ISPF, at least then. The editor
was more sophisticated. Even today people are trying to mimic some of the
features using Edit macros. And it did not have the stupid convention of
screens in one dataset, messages in another and so on and so forth. Yes I
know you can place all ISPF stuff in the same dataset, but you must still
allocate it to 5 filerefs.
I remember once it was decreed in Norway that workers were only allowed to
sit max 4 hours at a terminal per day. That, according to the present vendor
(Applied Data Research ?) , spelt the death of TSO in Norway. You couldn't
do anything usefull with TSO in that time.
There was a rumor once that the name ROSCOE was actually the first name of a
new vice-president at Applied Data Research. They named the product after
him to humour him and afterwards had to find out what it was short for.

rgds
Willy

ps sorry about the rambling - I try to stear away from non-technical issues,
but ROSCOE nostalgia got the better of me.

[Martin Leist]

All this talk of ROSCOEand COM-PLETE etc, but is anyone else out
there still using GUTS (Gothenburg University Timesharing System) ?

It was quite popular over here in the UK during the 1980's as it ran on
VS1 and MVS as well as the earlier incarnations of those systems.
We are now the only UK site (we think) still actively running the
system and have to do our own (source) modifications at each new
level of OS/390. GUTS is *very* TSO compatible, so much that you
can actually run ISPF under it, although that defeats the object as
GUTS uses one address space for all its editing and file
management, only using other address spaces when invoking an
external program, those being shared among all users. I think the
system was used by some parts of the US IRS but have no idea if its
still used.

One of the active (UK) developers later went on to IBM and used
some of the techniques that had been used in GUTS to improve the
performance of CICS. The "end" of GUTS was signalled when
Gothenburg University moved away from a mainframe based system.

--
Martin Leist
Technical Analyst
Itex, Norfolk County Council (UK) Email: Martin.l...@norfolk.gov.uk

[David Jousma]

Sorry, I guess I'm just dont have the GUTS.....

[Patrick Mullen]

David Jousma a écrit:

> Sorry, I guess I'm just dont have the GUTS.....

We once evaluated a product called:

System Testing Online Maintenance And CHange Environment

But it was a real dog's breakfast and we just didn't have the stomache
for it.

Patrick Mullen
Montreal, Canada

[Curt Silveus]

Proud to be an old Fart and have the hat and T-Shirt to prove it.
Any of the information above/below is subject to: "Year 2000 Readiness
Disclosure under the Federal Year 2000 Information and Readiness
Disclosure Act"

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Marchant [SMTP:to...@TMARCHANT.CC.WAYNE.EDU]

Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 3:37 PM
To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.

Oh, is *that* the deal? One of the old farts here likes to tell me that
TSO started out as WRAP, but he's not an MVS guy. I never used WRAP
either.

Tom Marchant

On Thu, 15 Jul 99 13:22:02 -0400 "Metz, Seymour" <sm...@NSF.GOV> wrote:
>
>WRAP.
>

>Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: Bruce Black [SMTP:bbl...@FDRINNOVATION.COM]
>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 12:34 PM

>> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>>

>> "Metz, Seymour" wrote:
>> >
>> > That's obscure? What about RUSH? Or RAX? Or the original name of
Roscoe?
>>
>> inquiring minds want to know!
>>

[Rick Fochtman]

Was that RAMAC or FASTRAND (from Univac days)??

"Metz, Seymour" wrote:

> That's OK, to me RAMAC is a disk drive about the size of a large
> refrigerator, with 50 platters, three arms, 650 ms seek time and a capacity
> of six million digits (100 cylinders, 100 tracks/cylinder, 60 words/track,
> 10 digits/word.)
>

> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Patrick Mullen [SMTP:patrick...@CGI.CA]
> > Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 9:00 AM
> > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> >

[Metz, Seymour]

I was talking about the IBM 655 RAMAC disk, based on the older 355 disk
drive used by the 305 RAMAC. The Sperry Rand FASTRAND was a drum, not a
disk.

[Wayne Driscoll]

I used MUSIC in the early 80's and remember all the manuals and internal doc
refering to it as "McGill University System for Interactive Computing" Not
Multi-User, so I think Seymour may have something to the IBM resell
agreement.
Wayne Driscoll
wdri...@foxvalley.net

> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU]On
> Behalf Of Metz, Seymour
> Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 10:13 AM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU

> Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Nothing particular, just some comments.
>
>
> Was that true of the original, or only after IBM started distributing it?
>

> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jeff Williams [SMTP:jef...@ATTACHMATE.COM]
> > Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 10:20 AM
> > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> >

[Tom Marchant]

Actually, Wayne State University's computing center is in the building
that was behind the Administrative services Building. It has been
there since at least 1968, when I took my first Fortran class and used
WASPS (a card based batch system) to submit my compiles and tests.
(I never had the privilege of using WRAP.) It was part of the same
complex of buildings that included ASB, ASB2 and ASB3, which were all
connected by a common roof. The computing center was once a Packard
dealership, and unconfirmed rumor has it that the rest of the complex
were also involved somehow in the automotive business. This is possible,
as we are only half a mile from the (former) world headquarters of
General Motors. GM moved last year (?) downtown to the Renaissance
Center, built by (among others) Ford Motor Company.

The ASB complex was demolished last year after the University
administration moved to a new building, but the computing center remains.
"Newer" computer center? That's a joke. There was talk of buying the
old Burroughs world headquarters building a few short blocks away, but
it was deemed to be a poor choice. I happen to own a big old Victorian
house across campus, and with the shrinking of mainframes I'm thinking
of putting a computing center there and selling MVS services to the
university.

Tom Marchant

>X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Date: Fri, 16 Jul 99 10:25:39 -0400
>From: "Metz, Seymour" <sm...@NSF.GOV>
>To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
>Reply-To: "IBM Mainframe Discussion List" <IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU>

>Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.

>

>Bingo! WSU is located in the heart of the cultural center of Detroit. Of
>course, walk two blocks to either side and ... :-(
>
>I was there when the computer center (CADPC) moved from Old Main to the
>Admin building; the "new" computer center is no boarded up, and I have no
>idea where the newer computer center is.
>

>Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Neil Stutz [SMTP:nst...@TALWEB.COM]
>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 1:39 AM
>> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>>

>> I'll guess. Wayne (State) Remote Access Program?
>>
>> Neil Stutz
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Metz, Seymour <sm...@NSF.GOV>
>> Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
>> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU <IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU>
>> Date: Thursday, July 15, 1999 2:42 PM

>> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>>
>>

>> >Yes, and you're not even close. The W derives from Geograhy, not
>> >functionality.
>> >

>> >Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----

>> >> From: Rob C. Schramm [SMTP:Rob.S...@53.COM]

>> >> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 2:19 PM
>> >> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
>> >> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>> >>

>> >> Writer Remote Access Protcol..
>> >> *Can you tell I'm guessing!?!?*
>> >>
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: Metz, Seymour [mailto:sm...@NSF.GOV]

>> >> > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 14:19
>> >> > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
>> >> > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>> >> >
>> >> >

>> >> > I like it, but it's wrong. The original name was WRAP. Who
>> >> > knows what that
>> >> > stands for?
>> >> >
>> >> > Tom, please don't spill the beans!
>> >> >

>> >> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>> >> >
>> >> > > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > > From: Jeff Williams [SMTP:jef...@ATTACHMATE.COM]

>> >> > > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 2:14 PM

>> >> > > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
>> >> > > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>> >> > >

>> >> > > ROSCOE = Really Obscure System for Computer Online Entry
>> >> > >
>> >> > > How do you like that one? ;-)
>> >> > >

>> >> > > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > > From: Bruce Black [SMTP:bbl...@FDRINNOVATION.COM]
>> >> > > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 12:34 PM

>> >> > > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
>> >> > > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>> >> > >

[Tom Marchant]

I am certain that I saw it listed in IBM's software catalog as McGill....
The book I'm referring to was about 5 x 7 inches and yellow. I haven't
seen one for about a dozen years. I'm sure someone here has a copy....

Tom Marchant

>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0
>Date: Fri, 16 Jul 99 18:36:40 -0500
>From: "Wayne Driscoll" <wdri...@FOXVALLEY.NET>

>To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
>Reply-To: "IBM Mainframe Discussion List" <IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU>
>Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.

>Importance: Normal

>
>I used MUSIC in the early 80's and remember all the manuals and internal doc
>refering to it as "McGill University System for Interactive Computing" Not
>Multi-User, so I think Seymour may have something to the IBM resell
>agreement.
>Wayne Driscoll
>wdri...@foxvalley.net
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU]On
>> Behalf Of Metz, Seymour

>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 10:13 AM
>> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU

>> Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Nothing particular, just some comments.
>>
>>
>> Was that true of the original, or only after IBM started distributing it?
>>

>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Jeff Williams [SMTP:jef...@ATTACHMATE.COM]
>> > Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 10:20 AM
>> > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
>> > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>> >

[Jonesy]

Tom Marchant <to...@tmarchant.cc.wayne.edu> wrote:

> The book I'm referring to was about 5 x 7 inches
> and
> yellow.

As well, almost all of my early-on mainframe books are yellow .... now.

( Nobody has mentioned CRJE yet...)

Jonesy
MainFrame since 1966

--
Marvin L. Jones jonz<AT>rmi.net
Gunnison, Colorado
167 days to go until the Year 2000 -- So what!
533 days to go until the 3rd Millennium of the C.E.

[Hall, Ken , ECSS]

A spare bedroom with a window air conditioner should be enough for 2000
mips. and a couple of terabytes...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Marchant [SMTP:to...@TMARCHANT.CC.WAYNE.EDU]

> Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 8:44 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>

> >To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> >Reply-To: "IBM Mainframe Discussion List" <IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU>
> >Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>
> >

> >Bingo! WSU is located in the heart of the cultural center of Detroit. Of
> >course, walk two blocks to either side and ... :-(
> >
> >I was there when the computer center (CADPC) moved from Old Main to the
> >Admin building; the "new" computer center is no boarded up, and I have no
> >idea where the newer computer center is.
> >

> >Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Neil Stutz [SMTP:nst...@TALWEB.COM]
> >> Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 1:39 AM
> >> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> >> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> >>

> >> I'll guess. Wayne (State) Remote Access Program?
> >>
> >> Neil Stutz
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Metz, Seymour <sm...@NSF.GOV>
> >> Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
> >> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU <IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU>
> >> Date: Thursday, July 15, 1999 2:42 PM

> >> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> >>
> >>

> >> >Yes, and you're not even close. The W derives from Geograhy, not
> >> >functionality.
> >> >

> >> >Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> >> >
> >> >> -----Original Message-----

> >> >> From: Rob C. Schramm [SMTP:Rob.S...@53.COM]
> >> >> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 2:19 PM

> >> >> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> >> >> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> >> >>

> >> >> Writer Remote Access Protcol..
> >> >> *Can you tell I'm guessing!?!?*
> >> >>
> >> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> >> > From: Metz, Seymour [mailto:sm...@NSF.GOV]
> >> >> > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 14:19

> >> >> > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> >> >> > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >

> >> >> > I like it, but it's wrong. The original name was WRAP. Who
> >> >> > knows what that
> >> >> > stands for?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Tom, please don't spill the beans!
> >> >> >

> >> >> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> >> > > From: Jeff Williams [SMTP:jef...@ATTACHMATE.COM]

> >> >> > > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 2:14 PM

> >> >> > > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> >> >> > > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> >> >> > >

> >> >> > > ROSCOE = Really Obscure System for Computer Online Entry
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > How do you like that one? ;-)
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> >> > > From: Bruce Black [SMTP:bbl...@FDRINNOVATION.COM]
> >> >> > > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 12:34 PM

> >> >> > > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> >> >> > > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> >> >> > >

[Jeff Williams]

McGill's own website http://MUSICM.McGill.CA/~MSI/HTTP/music.html says...
"The name MUSIC/SP is short for Multi-User System for Interactive Computing/
System Product."

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Driscoll [mailto:wdri...@FOXVALLEY.NET]
Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 4:37 PM
To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.

I used MUSIC in the early 80's and remember all the manuals and internal doc
refering to it as "McGill University System for Interactive Computing" Not
Multi-User, so I think Seymour may have something to the IBM resell
agreement.
Wayne Driscoll
wdri...@foxvalley.net

> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU]On
> Behalf Of Metz, Seymour

> Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 10:13 AM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU

> Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Nothing particular, just some comments.
>
>
> Was that true of the original, or only after IBM started distributing it?
>

> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jeff Williams [SMTP:jef...@ATTACHMATE.COM]
> > Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 10:20 AM
> > To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
> >

[Metz, Seymour]

MUSIC/SP is much more recent than MUSIC. Was it ever "Multi-User" prior to
MUSIC/SP, and, if so, when did the name change?

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Williams [SMTP:jef...@ATTACHMATE.COM]
> Sent: Monday, July 19, 1999 10:31 AM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>

[Metz, Seymour]

Could the M in the acronym have changed when IBM went from MUSIC to
MUSIC/SP? I vaguely recall some IBM literature in 1976 the said McGill.

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Marchant [SMTP:to...@TMARCHANT.CC.WAYNE.EDU]
> Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 9:49 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Nothing particular, just some comments.
>

> I am certain that I saw it listed in IBM's software catalog as McGill....
> The book I'm referring to was about 5 x 7 inches and yellow. I haven't

> seen one for about a dozen years. I'm sure someone here has a copy....

[David Alcock]

In message <55a5437b...@aol.com> IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU writes:

> MUSIC was from McGill University in Canada and worked in a VM environment.
> Can't remember what all the rest of the letters stood for...

I guess I'll add to the confusion with my recollection:

1) Originally, it was called McGill University yada-yada-yada
2) For a while, IBM sold it as a Product: Multi-User yada-yada-yada
3) Now it's still called Multi-User System for Interactive Computing but
only available from McGill University.

Back in the 1980s, the college I attended ran McGill's MUSIC when I got
there and later installed the IBM product. Now I see that they use
VM/CMS for students (editing and submiting jobs to MVS). The original
version of MUSIC installed there had a fun alias for logging off:
"F___". It would come back with something like "Well F___ you" and log
you off.