Maybe off topic
Ed Gould
I think it said something like DB2 was IBM's real first try into relational
databases.
My memory is foggy here something in the back of my mind says that is not quite
correct.
Back in the 70's (?) I vaguely remember IBM having a FDP(?) that claimed to do
relational database.
By slim memory says it may have been VM based. I do remember it had a 4 page
white sales type paper(IUP?). No name comes up.
Can anyone supply me with a product name?
I do recall something like this as we were looking at a product and the show
stopper was that it needed VM.
Anyone?
Ed
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Jim Mulder
> I think it said something like DB2 was IBM's real first try into
relational
> databases.
> My memory is foggy here something in the back of my mind says that
> is not quite correct.
> Back in the 70's (?) I vaguely remember IBM having a FDP(?) that
> claimed to do relational database.
> By slim memory says it may have been VM based. I do remember it had a 4
page
> white sales type paper(IUP?). No name comes up.
> Can anyone supply me with a product name?
> I do recall something like this as we were looking at a product and the
show
> stopper was that it needed VM.
http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=320457
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System_R
http://www.sigmod.org/publications/dblp/db/systems/r.html
Jim Mulder z/OS System Test IBM Corp. Poughkeepsie, NY
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> I was reading some article today about IBM & DB2 today. I think it
> said something like DB2 was IBM's real first try into relational
> databases. My memory is foggy here something in the back of my mind
> says that is not quite correct. Back in the 70's (?) I vaguely
> remember IBM having a FDP(?) that claimed to do relational database.
> By slim memory says it may have been VM based. I do remember it had a
> 4 page white sales type paper(IUP?). No name comes up. Can anyone
> supply me with a product name? I do recall something like this as we
> were looking at a product and the show stopper was that it needed VM.
system/r ... san jose research, bldg. 28. work was for vm/cms on the
group's 370/145.
there was then technology transfer to endicott for sql/ds product for
vm, vs1 & dos/vs. some past posts about system/r
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#systemr
when "eagle" effort "crashed" in STL, the system/r group was asked how
fast they could turn out something for MVS.
System/R reunion discussion of SQL/DS mentions that massive EAGLE
project in STL kept attention away from RDBMS ... allowing System/R to
get out as SQL/DS
http://www.mcjones.org/System_R/SQL_Reunion_95/sqlr95-SQL_DS.html
quote from above:
The surprise of the MVS project was that it happened faster than I
thought it would. In other words, Plan A collapsed, all right? Eagle
collapsed, and all of a sudden, everyone turned to us and said, "OK,
when can you ship this database product?" [laughter] And that's when
we had to make some fairly hasty, difficult decisions on ...
... snip ...
lots more in the System/R 1995 reunion
http://www.mcjones.org/System_R
some mention in Jim's departing "MIP Envy":
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007d.html#email800920
slightly later 24sep80 version here:
http://research.microsoft.com/~gray/papers/CritiqueOfIBM%27sCSResearch.doc
Oracle executive mentioned in this Jan1992 meeting claimed (when he was
at STL) to have handled the SQL/DS tech. transfer from Endicott back to
STL for DB2
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#13
past posts about Jim palming off bunch of stuff on me when he was
departing for Tandem ... including consulting with the IMS group and
customers running System/R
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007.html#email801006
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007.html#email801016
some also discussed at celebration held for Jim at Berkeley
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008i.html#32 A Tribute to Jim Gray: Sometimes Nice Guys Do Finish First
audio from the celebration
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008i.html#50 Microsoft versus Digital Equipment Corporation
sql/ds mentioned here ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_SQL/DS
sql/ds redbook
http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/gg244047.html
and sql/ds "rebranded" here
http://www-01.ibm.com/software/data/db2/vse-vm/
as referenced above ... the "official" DBMS effort in STL was called
"EAGLE", but when that crashed ... then the system/r group was asked how
fast could a RDBMS be turned out for MVS. recent post/mention
in (linkedin) Greater IBM
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011d.html#42 Mainframe Hall of Frame. List of influential mainframers thoughout history
as an aside ... the first commercial offering of Codd's relational
(worked at research in bldg. 28)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_F._Codd
was on Multics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multics_Relational_Data_Store
more on MRDS from the System/R reunion:
http://www.mcjones.org/System_R/mrds.html
RDBMS wiki page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_database_management_system
trivia ... multics was on 5th flr of 545 tech sq. The science center
that did virtual machines, cp67/cms, etc ... was on 4th flr of 545 tech
sq. When the cp67 group split off from the science center, they took
over the Boston Programming Center on the 3rd flr (morphing into the
vm370 development group). The development group outgrew the space on the
3rd flr and moved out to the old SBC bldg. (vacated in the legal actions
where IBM transferred SBC to CDC) in Burlington Mall. misc. past posts
mentioning 545 tech. sq
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech
in the wake of demise of Future System project ... misc. past posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#futuresys
there was mad rush to get products back into the 370 (hardware &
software) product pipeline ... having been killed off during the FS
period. Part of that was the head of POK managed to convince the
corporation to kill-off VM370 Burlington Mall development group, becuase
he needed to transfer all the people to POK for MVS/XA development (or
otherwise he couldn't meet the ship schedule). Endicott managed to save
the vm370 product mission, but had to recreate a development group from
scratch.
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> System/R reunion discussion of SQL/DS mentions that massive EAGLE
> project in STL kept attention away from RDBMS ... allowing System/R to
> get out as SQL/DS
> http://www.mcjones.org/System_R/SQL_Reunion_95/sqlr95-SQL_DS.html
>
> quote from above:
>
> The surprise of the MVS project was that it happened faster than I
> thought it would. In other words, Plan A collapsed, all right? Eagle
> collapsed, and all of a sudden, everyone turned to us and said, "OK,
> when can you ship this database product?" [laughter] And that's when
> we had to make some fairly hasty, difficult decisions on ...
>
> ... snip ...
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011d.htmL#52 Maybe off topic
more on crash of Eagle ... and question about how fast a system/r
could be released on MVS (aka DB2)
http://www.mcjones.org/System_R/SQL_Reunion_95/sqlr95-DB2.html
above mentions that marketing quy was looking at a poster for the
original Santa Teresa lab announcement ... with an eagle soaring above
the building ... and decided on EAGLE for the grand MVS DBMS effort.
I was in DC with offspring for vacation the week before the Air & Space
museum opened (*AND* also the week before STL was to be opened). At that
time, STL was going to be called Coyote lab (the closest post office and
the name of the valley). That week a working ladies organization called
"Coyote" was demonstrating on the steps of the capital (and getting lots
of press) ... which appeared to prompt quick revision of the lab's name
from Coyote to Santa Teresa (nearby cross-road, lab has since been
rename Silicon Valley lab).
Hal Merritt
Ed
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Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> I seem to recall working on a product called SLR (Service Level
> Reporter). My (very poor) memory is of databases that looked a lot
> like those later introduced by DB2.
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/~lynn/2011d.html#52 Maybe off topic
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/~lynn/2011d.html#54 Maybe off topic
dating back before sql (originally on vm370) were some 4th generation
languages that were offered by virtual machine based commercial service
bureaus (initially late 60s, cp67 and later vm370) ... RAMIS, NOMAD,
FOCUS (in some cases developed as part of competition between different
virtual machine based commercial service bureaus)
RAMIS wiki page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramis_Software
NOMAD wiki page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomad_software
FOCUS wiki page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOCUS
RAMIS and NOMAD reference at computer history museum
http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102658182
Computer History Museum PDF file:
http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Oral_History/RAMIS_and_NOMAD/RAMIS_and_NOMAD.National_CSS.oral_history.2005.102658182.pdf
RAMIS & FOCUS ... brief history of 4th gen languages:
http://ibmmainframes.com/about5018.html
The Wholly Unofficial NOMAD Website
http://www.decosta.com/Nomad/
also in the time-frame of SQL/RDBMS being done at SJR (research on the
west coast) there was query-by-example being done at YKT (research on
the east coast) ... old email about QBE presentation at SJR (by "Father
of QBE, Arch-enemy of System R"):
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#email800310
in this old post
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#44 SQL wildcard origins?
QBE wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Query_by_Example
then there is this on "pre-history" (also from the 95 reunion):
http://www.mcjones.org/System_R/SQL_Reunion_95/sqlr95-Prehisto.html
Ingres has gone thru multiple incarnations ... we worked with them in
the 90s as part of our high-availability, cluster operation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingres_%28database%29
in conjunction with HA/CMP product:
http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/clresctr/vxrx/topic/com.ibm.cluster.hacmp.doc/hacmpbooks.html
past posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hacmp
mention that original INGRES language was QUEL
http://www.mcjones.org/System_R/SQL_Reunion_95/sqlr95-Teradata.html
above also mentions that a spinoff from INGRES project was Britton-Lee
... including Bob Epstien as CTO. When Bob left for Teradata (and then
later founded Sybase), there was lots of recruiting going on around
bldg28/SJR (usually across the street from the plant site) for
replacement for Bob. Of course not nearly on the scale of Shugart
recruiting disk engineers
http://www.businessweek.com/1997/34/trans34/shugart.htm
http://www.mdhc.scu.edu/100th/Progress/Shugart/shugart.html
Sybase wiki ... we also worked with in porting to HA/CMP cluster mode:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybase
Above mentions Sybase had a deal with Microsoft to remarket as "SQL
Server" (... until version 4.9, Sybase and Microsoft SQL Server were
virtually identical)
Oracle wiki page (started out as "SDL", Oracel name came from CIA-funded
project that Ellison had worked on at Ampex) ... we also worked with
(RDBMS) Oracle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_Database
as referenced in this post about old Jan92 meeting in Ellison's
conference room
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#13
Oracle wiki mentions it was the first commercially available SQL-based
RDBMS (1979) ... as opposed to first commercial RDBMS (Multics 1976).
http://www.mcjones.org/System_R/mrds.htm
The other major RDBMS player from the period (that we worked with in
HA/CMP) was Informix (before IBM bought them)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Informix
DB2 was rather late RDBMS to ship ... largely because EAGLE was the MVS
strategic DBMS ... and it wasn't only after EAGLE effort crashed was
there the rush to get System/R (and SQL/DS) over to MVS for DB2. DB2
announced 7Jun1983, avail. 2Apr1985
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_DB2
note that in 1989 ... there was work on totally different DB2
... targeted for OS2.
past posts mentioning System/R
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#systemr
also past posts getting to play disk engineer in bldgs14&15
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#disk
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Gould
My memory seemed too jump when I saw QBE... I think that was it.
THE BIG block letters on the screen were QBE.
I do not know How I ever forgot those initials but I did.
Now onto QBE. Was it iBM code or an IUP or ... ????. A quick google says it was
written by IBM.
Ed
Anyh
________________________________
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@GARLIC.COM>
To: IBM-...@bama.ua.edu
Sent: Tue, March 8, 2011 2:11:33 PM
Subject: Re: Maybe off topic
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> Thanks...
>
> My memory seemed too jump when I saw QBE... I think that was it.
> THE BIG block letters on the screen were QBE.
>
> I do not know How I ever forgot those initials but I did.
> Now onto QBE. Was it iBM code or an IUP or ... ????. A quick google says it was
> written by IBM.
>
> Ed
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011d.html#52 Maybe off topic
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011d.html#54 Maybe off topic
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011d.html#55 Maybe off topic
"Shoot-out at the OK Corral" ... (between QBE & SQL):
http://www.mcjones.org/System_R/SQL_Reunion_95/sqlr95-Shoot-ou.html
from above (QBE being in the field as an IUP)
And there were people in the field, and they loved it. They had stories
of tape librarians who'd automated their tape library with it, and Gene
Trivett was going around and fixing some of the performance problems,
and it was popping up all over the planet. So it had a very loyal
following. It was obvious to everybody that this did something
wonderful. That this was an end-user program. So then the question
became, "So why don't we cancel System R?" or "Why don't we grow this
thing?"
... snip ...
a little later on in above:
I don't have the exact date, but around 1978, right? When did the actual
shoot-out occur? 1978? Gomory asked Dick Case to do a review of the
work. Dick Case included Ashok Chandra, who currently runs the Computer
Science Department - he's the latest version of Frank King - and one
other person, who were all disinterested people, but were technically
capable. They went to Yorktown and learned all about QBE, and then they
came to San Jose to learn all about System R, and I gave them my long
lecture about how the lock manager works and how Compare-and-Swap could
do locking, and we did it all right, and we knew how to do
Compare-and-Swap-Double. Dick Case was really impressed, because he's
probably the architect of Compare-and-Swap.
... snip ...
as I've posted before, compare&swap was invented by charlie at the
cambridge science center working on fine-grain multiprocessor locking
for cp67 (compare-and-swap was chosen because "CAS" are charlie's
initials). we tried to get "CAS" into 370, but were rebuffed because the
POK favorite son operating system people claimed that test&set was more
than adequate. The challenge given us by the owners of 370 architecture
was to come up with uses other than kernel multiprocessing. Thus was
born were the uses for application multithreaded operation, examples
that still appear in principle of operations. misc. past posts
mentioning multiprocessor support &/or compare&swap
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#smp
some more QBE in discussion about VS/QUERY (QMF):
http://www.mcjones.org/System_R/SQL_Reunion_95/sqlr95-VS_QUERY.html
for other topic drift:
http://www.mcjones.org/System_R/SQL_Reunion_95/sqlr95-Prehisto.html
above mentions a project at cambridge science center. one of the people
working on the project was the "L" ... in "GML" which was invented at CSC
in 1969. In the late '70s, "GML" morphs into ISO standard as "SGML"
... and then in the late '80s, "SGML" morphs into "HTML". misc. past
posts mentioning gml, sgml, html, etc
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#sgml
"L" transfers from CSC to SJR ... shortly after I did. misc. past posts
mentioning cambridge science center, 4th flr, 545 tech sq
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> Thanks...
>
> My memory seemed too jump when I saw QBE... I think that was it.
> THE BIG block letters on the screen were QBE.
>
> I do not know How I ever forgot those initials but I did.
> Now onto QBE. Was it iBM code or an IUP or ... ????. A quick google says it was
> written by IBM.
>
> Ed
re:
... snip ...
... snip ...
--
Shmuel Metz , Seymour J.
at 12:43 AM, Ed Gould <ps2...@YAHOO.COM> said:
>My memory seemed too jump when I saw QBE
Acronym overloading. There was a QBE that was part of QMF. That's the
one that you'd be most likely to encounter.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
ISO position; see <http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html>
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)
Shmuel Metz , Seymour J.
<1910AEA19CD2554FB5940...@MMOEXCHMBS01.jhacorp.com>,
on 03/08/2011
at 11:16 AM, Hal Merritt <HMer...@JACKHENRY.COM> said:
>I seem to recall working on a product called SLR (Service Level
>Reporter).
That was a program for managing SMF data and generating reports from
them. Ultimately support was added for storing the SMF data in DB2
tables.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
ISO position; see <http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html>
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)
----------------------------------------------------------------------