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Outsourcing Stories Good or Bad!
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Mark Wilson
Feb 24, 2016, 5:31:37 AM2/24/16
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I am working with a client in Europe that is being requested by his senior management team to look at outsourcing their IT systems, including their system z platform.
Would anyone be willing to share any war stories of their experiences with Outsourcing good or bad?
Offline from the list via email or for anyone attending Share in Texas willing to have a coffee/beer and discuss face to face.
Mark
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Would anyone be willing to share any war stories of their experiences with Outsourcing good or bad?
Offline from the list via email or for anyone attending Share in Texas willing to have a coffee/beer and discuss face to face.
Mark
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Grinsell, Don
Feb 24, 2016, 12:13:42 PM2/24/16
to
We just went through a study involving only the mainframe and came away with the conclusion that for the time being we are doing it cheaper in house than we could do it outside. Our biggest issue is that the mainframe platform is not strategic and our applications are steadily migrating off. (Yes, I know all the reasons this should not be so, but that's life. Several of these projects are in year 5 of a 3 year plan and we haven't even hit the big ones yet.) The biggest downside I see with outsourcing is that once it's out the door, you are definitely at the mercy of the outsourcer and good luck bringing it back in house. The devil is in the details so be sure you get what you need specified in the contract.
--
Donald Grinsell
State of Montana
406-444-2983
dgri...@mt.gov
"As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
~ Justice William O. Douglas
> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU]
> On Behalf Of Ken Hume
> Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 9:56 AM
> To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Outsourcing Stories Good or Bad!
>
> I wound up leaving a company in Atlanta that I had been with over 17 years
> when they announced we were under the Y2K force reduction plan.
> After Y2K was completed, 46 of us in the support area would be laid off.
> We had over 600yrs combined employment with the company. I chose to
> take a job I found with IBM.
>
> The support was moved to the parent company in MSP. One of my jobs was
> making CICS updates for the programmers. That service level went from
> overnight to one week. There were a LOT of service levels messed with as
> well. What once took a phone call or a stop by a desk now took phone calls,
> forms and emails.
>
> Now that support, as well as the application development, has been moved
> offshore. Lots more folks lost their jobs. Turnaround times increased as
> expected. The biggest thing I have heard is that a PM at the company has to
> talk to a PM at the outsourcer to get anything changed. The PM at the
> outsourcer then relays the info to the developers. Coding is done, testing is
> done at the outsourcer, company reviews output and the process starts over
> for changes.
>
> Sad, sad, sad......
>
>
> On 2/24/2016 9:38 AM, McCabe, Ron wrote:
> > We are also in the "research" stage of possibly Outsourcing our z platform
> so I would also be interested in hearing the good or bad stories. I will be at
> Share next week.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ron McCabe
> > Mutual of Enumclaw
> Confidentiality Notice: This e- mail and all attachments may contain
> CONFIDENTIAL information and are meant solely for the intended recipient.
> It may contain controlled, privileged, or proprietary information that is
> protected under applicable law and shall not be disclosed to any
> unauthorized third party. If you are not the intended recipient, you are
> hereby notified that any unauthorized review, action, disclosure,
> distribution, or reproduction of any information contained in this e- mail and
> any attachments is strictly PROHIBITED. If you received this e- mail in error,
> please reply to the sender immediately stating that this transmission was
> misdirected, and delete or destroy all electronic and paper copies of this e-
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> grant or assign rights of ownership in the proprietary subject matter herein,
> nor shall it be construed as a joint venture, partnership, teaming agreement,
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--
Donald Grinsell
State of Montana
406-444-2983
dgri...@mt.gov
"As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
~ Justice William O. Douglas
> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU]
> On Behalf Of Ken Hume
> Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 9:56 AM
> To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Outsourcing Stories Good or Bad!
>
> I wound up leaving a company in Atlanta that I had been with over 17 years
> when they announced we were under the Y2K force reduction plan.
> After Y2K was completed, 46 of us in the support area would be laid off.
> We had over 600yrs combined employment with the company. I chose to
> take a job I found with IBM.
>
> The support was moved to the parent company in MSP. One of my jobs was
> making CICS updates for the programmers. That service level went from
> overnight to one week. There were a LOT of service levels messed with as
> well. What once took a phone call or a stop by a desk now took phone calls,
> forms and emails.
>
> Now that support, as well as the application development, has been moved
> offshore. Lots more folks lost their jobs. Turnaround times increased as
> expected. The biggest thing I have heard is that a PM at the company has to
> talk to a PM at the outsourcer to get anything changed. The PM at the
> outsourcer then relays the info to the developers. Coding is done, testing is
> done at the outsourcer, company reviews output and the process starts over
> for changes.
>
> Sad, sad, sad......
>
>
> On 2/24/2016 9:38 AM, McCabe, Ron wrote:
> > We are also in the "research" stage of possibly Outsourcing our z platform
> so I would also be interested in hearing the good or bad stories. I will be at
> Share next week.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ron McCabe
> > Mutual of Enumclaw
> CONFIDENTIAL information and are meant solely for the intended recipient.
> It may contain controlled, privileged, or proprietary information that is
> protected under applicable law and shall not be disclosed to any
> unauthorized third party. If you are not the intended recipient, you are
> hereby notified that any unauthorized review, action, disclosure,
> distribution, or reproduction of any information contained in this e- mail and
> any attachments is strictly PROHIBITED. If you received this e- mail in error,
> please reply to the sender immediately stating that this transmission was
> misdirected, and delete or destroy all electronic and paper copies of this e-
> mail and attachments without disclosing the contents. This e- mail does not
> grant or assign rights of ownership in the proprietary subject matter herein,
> nor shall it be construed as a joint venture, partnership, teaming agreement,
> or any other formal business relationship.
Tony Thigpen
Feb 24, 2016, 12:43:04 PM2/24/16
to
It would be helpful if you clarified your needs. There are multiple
levels of outsourcing:
Machine is moved, but both systems programming and application
programming remain in-house.
Machine is moved, including systems programming but the applications
remain in-house
Everything is moved.
I work for an outsourcer who specializes in Mainframe Hospice. We work
mainly with the under 200 mips, although we can go higher. We really
don't want the applications support, but we do like, but don't require,
the systems programming support.
We have found that the reason we do so well is that we usually can take
a really old 'static' system, put it on our floor, then reduce the mips
requirements to save the customer money. Many of these systems have
already had some of their systems moved off-platform, but nobody reduced
the mips requirements so all systems software is still being paid for
based on the big mips box that is not being used more than 50% of it's
capacity.
Also, most other outsourcers want to nickel and dime people with a bunch
of small fees that really add up. For example, a little over a year ago
we took over a machine that was in another outsourcer shop. We found
that they had left the customer on 3490's (Yes, 3490's) and were
charging them a per-mount charge. They were being charged for 500+
mounts a day. Almost 300 just for nightly backups. We put them on a 3590
and now they only are using 10-15 mounts a night. (Which is below our
'included in base cost' number.) Also, 25% of the disk space used was
for 'historical' files that were really not needed. Who needs 3 copies
of 5 years of SMF data on disk? (Another 2 copies were on tape.) We
found 100's of generations of some nightly batch application files.
The main reason we get the systems programming work is because the
company was 'getting off the mainframe in 3 years' 5 years ago and the
systems programmer left.
With todays networking capibilities, it is not longer cost-effective to
build your own computer room because it can now be located anywhere
where several systems can utilized the same UPS, Cooling, Disk and Tape
units as other systems.
Tony Thigpen
levels of outsourcing:
Machine is moved, but both systems programming and application
programming remain in-house.
Machine is moved, including systems programming but the applications
remain in-house
Everything is moved.
I work for an outsourcer who specializes in Mainframe Hospice. We work
mainly with the under 200 mips, although we can go higher. We really
don't want the applications support, but we do like, but don't require,
the systems programming support.
We have found that the reason we do so well is that we usually can take
a really old 'static' system, put it on our floor, then reduce the mips
requirements to save the customer money. Many of these systems have
already had some of their systems moved off-platform, but nobody reduced
the mips requirements so all systems software is still being paid for
based on the big mips box that is not being used more than 50% of it's
capacity.
Also, most other outsourcers want to nickel and dime people with a bunch
of small fees that really add up. For example, a little over a year ago
we took over a machine that was in another outsourcer shop. We found
that they had left the customer on 3490's (Yes, 3490's) and were
charging them a per-mount charge. They were being charged for 500+
mounts a day. Almost 300 just for nightly backups. We put them on a 3590
and now they only are using 10-15 mounts a night. (Which is below our
'included in base cost' number.) Also, 25% of the disk space used was
for 'historical' files that were really not needed. Who needs 3 copies
of 5 years of SMF data on disk? (Another 2 copies were on tape.) We
found 100's of generations of some nightly batch application files.
The main reason we get the systems programming work is because the
company was 'getting off the mainframe in 3 years' 5 years ago and the
systems programmer left.
With todays networking capibilities, it is not longer cost-effective to
build your own computer room because it can now be located anywhere
where several systems can utilized the same UPS, Cooling, Disk and Tape
units as other systems.
Tony Thigpen
Tom Marchant
Feb 24, 2016, 1:33:28 PM2/24/16
to
On Wed, 24 Feb 2016 10:31:14 +0000, Mark Wilson wrote:
>I am working with a client in Europe that is being requested by his senior
>management team to look at outsourcing their IT systems, including their
>system z platform.
>
>Would anyone be willing to share any war stories of their experiences with
>Outsourcing good or bad?
There has been considerable evidence of outsourcing to incompetent companies
>I am working with a client in Europe that is being requested by his senior
>management team to look at outsourcing their IT systems, including their
>system z platform.
>
>Would anyone be willing to share any war stories of their experiences with
>Outsourcing good or bad?
on IBM-Main lately. They don't say that they are outsourcers, but in the last
few days there have been threads from people who hadn't a clue what they
were doing. My guess is that they are outsourcers. Two that come to mind are
the thread on a DASD device not going offline, and one about Applying a PTF to
DB2 10.
--
Tom Marchant
Jesse 1 Robinson
Feb 24, 2016, 1:49:36 PM2/24/16
to
Harsh, but on target. I now delete posts in both threads based on subject alone.
.
.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-302-7535 Office
Jesse1....@sce.com
.
.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-302-7535 Office
Jesse1....@sce.com
zMan
Feb 24, 2016, 8:56:09 PM2/24/16
to
This is anecdotal, of course, so of limited value, but the outsourcing
projects that I've seen be successful were the ones where some local
expertise was retained. The net was that the gruntwork was what was
outsourced; the corporate knowledge remained.
Alas, these seem to be the exception. Far more common is RIFfing the people
who know where the bodies are buried, with the expected resulting hilarity.
On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 1:39 PM, Jesse 1 Robinson <Jesse1....@sce.com>
wrote:
--
zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"
projects that I've seen be successful were the ones where some local
expertise was retained. The net was that the gruntwork was what was
outsourced; the corporate knowledge remained.
Alas, these seem to be the exception. Far more common is RIFfing the people
who know where the bodies are buried, with the expected resulting hilarity.
On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 1:39 PM, Jesse 1 Robinson <Jesse1....@sce.com>
wrote:
zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"
Sankaranarayanan, Vignesh
Feb 25, 2016, 1:54:51 PM2/25/16
to
Some thoughts from someone on the other side.
What's the point of saying "Oh, I'm an outsourced nobody." in a post where one is asking for help. So you may choose to not answer or sit on your high horse and ridicule their incompetence when they're struggling?
If you guys (actual mainframe folk with decades of background) are going to compare outsourced folk vs yourselves, you're doing it wrong.
Most of your outsourced folk are younger than the total experience you may have. Of course they're going to be inferior.
Do you call a baby rubbish because it can't write a sonnet? Yes, the baby has no business writing sonnets but welcome to the world of outsourcing.
When deciding to outsource, your employer has chosen money over the people who have served him/her for a long time.
Don't take out your anger and disgust on people who are struggling to better themselves because they have massive shoes to fill.
It's not his/her action that has led to you being laid off and being forced to accept ridiculous things (train or you don't get your 401k or whatever) in your last hours (on the job).
That said, here's some actual feedback which may not be possible to implement at all though:
1. Exercise as many choices as you must to ensure you do not suffer. Try as hard as you can to not accept people who can't speak basic English.
The big man at the outsourcer may not leave that choice to you but trust me, this is the root of all the abscess that you're (employer) being charged for.
"This guy can't speak, so let's make him work under some 15,000 managers who repeat the same thing without adding value."
Oh, and BTW, these managers are paid a f*k load more than the people working, I would assume.
2. Offshoring development, IMHO, is the worst thing you can do.
You want your company to work on code that's written by someone who's knowledge is extremely limited, and someone who would keep trying to nail everything because he has a hammer?
3. If you are able to pick the right (technical) people, keep the overhead (hey, if we're "resources", what's above us ought to be "overhead" right?) to an extreme minimum.
Who knows, some day Watson may make the whole industry go away and one machine may manage the other. At that point, you get to say "Ha! No more of these 'incompetent masses'".
– Vignesh
Mainframe Infrastructure
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tom Marchant
MARKSANDSPENCER.COM
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Telephone (020) 7935 4422
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Please note that electronic mail may be monitored.
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What's the point of saying "Oh, I'm an outsourced nobody." in a post where one is asking for help. So you may choose to not answer or sit on your high horse and ridicule their incompetence when they're struggling?
If you guys (actual mainframe folk with decades of background) are going to compare outsourced folk vs yourselves, you're doing it wrong.
Most of your outsourced folk are younger than the total experience you may have. Of course they're going to be inferior.
Do you call a baby rubbish because it can't write a sonnet? Yes, the baby has no business writing sonnets but welcome to the world of outsourcing.
When deciding to outsource, your employer has chosen money over the people who have served him/her for a long time.
Don't take out your anger and disgust on people who are struggling to better themselves because they have massive shoes to fill.
It's not his/her action that has led to you being laid off and being forced to accept ridiculous things (train or you don't get your 401k or whatever) in your last hours (on the job).
That said, here's some actual feedback which may not be possible to implement at all though:
1. Exercise as many choices as you must to ensure you do not suffer. Try as hard as you can to not accept people who can't speak basic English.
The big man at the outsourcer may not leave that choice to you but trust me, this is the root of all the abscess that you're (employer) being charged for.
"This guy can't speak, so let's make him work under some 15,000 managers who repeat the same thing without adding value."
Oh, and BTW, these managers are paid a f*k load more than the people working, I would assume.
2. Offshoring development, IMHO, is the worst thing you can do.
You want your company to work on code that's written by someone who's knowledge is extremely limited, and someone who would keep trying to nail everything because he has a hammer?
3. If you are able to pick the right (technical) people, keep the overhead (hey, if we're "resources", what's above us ought to be "overhead" right?) to an extreme minimum.
Who knows, some day Watson may make the whole industry go away and one machine may manage the other. At that point, you get to say "Ha! No more of these 'incompetent masses'".
– Vignesh
Mainframe Infrastructure
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tom Marchant
________________________________
Unless otherwise stated above:
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Stone, Sandy
Feb 25, 2016, 2:24:19 PM2/25/16
to
Where’s the 'like' button?
:-)
s
http://www.medmutual.com/
Visit http://www.medmutual.com/
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Thank you, Medical Mutual.
:-)
s
http://www.medmutual.com/
Visit http://www.medmutual.com/
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Thank you, Medical Mutual.
Chris Hoelscher
Feb 25, 2016, 2:40:47 PM2/25/16
to
Whatever outsourcer is selected - have your SLA be as detailed as possible and include major penalties for non-compliance ...
A long long time ago in a data center far far away ... I was consulting to a outsourcing firm - they had control of a LARGE datacenter - at some point something happened (I honestly don’t remember what) - the clients were noticeably limping along - but at a level that met SLA - the outsourcer HAD a solution , but would have required an outage (IPL?) - which would have caused an SLA violation - so because degraded service was contractually acceptable, the clients limped along for some time ...
The mantra we were told (in essence) was ...
We don’t care if you NEVER do anything RIGHT, as long as you DON'T do anything WRONG
It seemed the SLA was written that the benefits of success were far outweighed by the risks of failure
So YOU, the client, make sure that YOU set the Service Level you expect nay DEMAND and don’t let the outsourcers off the hook with a substandard SLA
Chris Hoelscher
Technology Architect, Database Infrastructure Services
Technology Solution Services
: humana.com
123 East Main Street
Louisville, KY 40202
Humana.com
(502) 714-8615, (502) 476-2538
The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed
and may contain CONFIDENTIAL material. If you receive this material/information in error,
please contact the sender and delete or destroy the material/information.
A long long time ago in a data center far far away ... I was consulting to a outsourcing firm - they had control of a LARGE datacenter - at some point something happened (I honestly don’t remember what) - the clients were noticeably limping along - but at a level that met SLA - the outsourcer HAD a solution , but would have required an outage (IPL?) - which would have caused an SLA violation - so because degraded service was contractually acceptable, the clients limped along for some time ...
The mantra we were told (in essence) was ...
We don’t care if you NEVER do anything RIGHT, as long as you DON'T do anything WRONG
It seemed the SLA was written that the benefits of success were far outweighed by the risks of failure
So YOU, the client, make sure that YOU set the Service Level you expect nay DEMAND and don’t let the outsourcers off the hook with a substandard SLA
Chris Hoelscher
Technology Architect, Database Infrastructure Services
Technology Solution Services
: humana.com
123 East Main Street
Louisville, KY 40202
Humana.com
(502) 714-8615, (502) 476-2538
The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed
and may contain CONFIDENTIAL material. If you receive this material/information in error,
please contact the sender and delete or destroy the material/information.
Ed Gould
Feb 25, 2016, 3:27:28 PM2/25/16
to
Then why should we provide expertise for free?
We all learned the hard way with no IBM-MAIN at beck and call.
We developed our own word of mouth partners. You should be doing the
same.
Ed
Sankaranarayanan, Vignesh
Feb 25, 2016, 3:51:44 PM2/25/16
to
No one's forcing you to Ed. But I'm guessing you're helping around here because you love what you do, not because you want to help "your people" alone.
One can't learn a lot from equals, and one certainly can't learn a lot from those who are (for the lack of a more sensitive phrase) below them.
Sure, if this community doesn't want to help, that means workload mounts for IBM in the form of a trillion more service requests lol.
But those who are here to learn will find a way.
- Vignesh
> - Vignesh
One can't learn a lot from equals, and one certainly can't learn a lot from those who are (for the lack of a more sensitive phrase) below them.
Sure, if this community doesn't want to help, that means workload mounts for IBM in the form of a trillion more service requests lol.
But those who are here to learn will find a way.
- Vignesh
Mainframe Infrastructure
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ed Gould
Sent: Friday, Feb 26, 2016 1:57 AM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Outsourcing Stories Good or Bad!
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ed Gould
Sent: Friday, Feb 26, 2016 1:57 AM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Outsourcing Stories Good or Bad!
> Mainframe Infrastructure
> ----------------------SNIP--------------------------
Then why should we provide expertise for free?
We all learned the hard way with no IBM-MAIN at beck and call.
We developed our own word of mouth partners. You should be doing the same.
Ed
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> ----------------------SNIP--------------------------
Then why should we provide expertise for free?
We all learned the hard way with no IBM-MAIN at beck and call.
We developed our own word of mouth partners. You should be doing the same.
Ed
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to list...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
MARKSANDSPENCER.COM
________________________________
Unless otherwise stated above:
Marks and Spencer plc
Registered Office:
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Registered No. 214436 in England and Wales.
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Facsimile (020) 7487 2670
www.marksandspencer.com
Please note that electronic mail may be monitored.
This e-mail is confidential. If you received it by mistake, please let us know and then delete it from your system; you should not copy, disclose, or distribute its contents to anyone nor act in reliance on this e-mail, as this is prohibited and may be unlawful.
________________________________
Unless otherwise stated above:
Marks and Spencer plc
Registered Office:
Waterside House
35 North Wharf Road
London
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Registered No. 214436 in England and Wales.
Telephone (020) 7935 4422
Facsimile (020) 7487 2670
www.marksandspencer.com
Please note that electronic mail may be monitored.
This e-mail is confidential. If you received it by mistake, please let us know and then delete it from your system; you should not copy, disclose, or distribute its contents to anyone nor act in reliance on this e-mail, as this is prohibited and may be unlawful.
Burrell, C. Todd , CDC/OCOO/OCIO/ITSO, CTR
Feb 25, 2016, 4:01:36 PM2/25/16
to
I'm not going to judge anyone here - but I have always had the attitude that if someone wants Mainframe help and I can help them - I am going to help them. I would never have learned half of what I know after almost 30 years in IT without others taking the time to answer a question or two (or MANY) over the years. And I for one have learned a great deal just monitoring these emails that come out on IBM-MAIN every day. I have a folder of probably 500 emails I have kept over the years - and I still access them occasionally to fix a problem, etc... There is a great deal of knowledge on this forum and I for one am very appreciate of the help I have received over the years - and I have also been glad to offer assistance here and there where I can.
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Sankaranarayanan, Vignesh
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Sankaranarayanan, Vignesh
Lucas Rosalen
Feb 25, 2016, 4:34:37 PM2/25/16
to
I have always worked for the Outsourcerer-IBM (which is different than
working for "the real" IBM), so I might have some points to bring in:
- Best scenario I've worked was for a customer that kept 1 key-person for
each area (z/OS, DB2, etc.). This person would bring historical knowledge,
technical knowledge and sense of urgency depending on the situation. Weekly
checkpoint meetings kept the teams aligned with what the customer desired;
- SLAs MUST be carefully reviewed and agreed. Both sides could and WILL use
it "against" the other side. If SLA is met, then no problem, no matter
what's going on. Short-term contracts (3-5 years instead of 10-15 years)
allow for a better SLA adjustment down the road;
- There MUST be some sort of responsibility matrix with DETAILED activites
(generic activites like "maintain systems" are too broad). Just by looking
at this matrix, you should be able to tell: who's responsible for doing X?
who's to be informed about X? who should be consulted if doing X?;
- Outsourcers will probably request a lot of documentation (that in-house
companies probably don't even have). This is vital! Part of the issues that
might come could be avoided with a good documentation to start with;
- Projects (processor upgrade, OS upgrade, router replacements, etc.) will
most likely be treated like so (PROJECTS). Which means that probably a
Project Manager will have to be involved to make teams talk to each other.
Some overhead in these activities have to be considered;
There are good and there are bad people working on outsourcerers, but I
*guess* this is everywhere though, so no news.
Where I worked, people tend to "standardize" the systems the most they can
after transition has stabilized. This means the less exits, the better.
Keep in mind the outsourcerer might have many clients and when someone gets
called in the middle of the night it might be hard to remember the
peculiarities of one of them.
On the other hand teams are usually able to compare cross-customers
solutions and propose enhancements should they apply.
Hope this helps a bit.
Regards,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Lucas Rosalen*
Emails: rosale...@gmail.com / *lros...@pl.ibm.com
<lros...@br.ibm.com>*
LinkedIn: http://br.linkedin.com/in/lrosalen
Phone: +48 792 809 198
2016-02-25 18:00 GMT-03:00 Burrell, C. Todd (CDC/OCOO/OCIO/ITSO) (CTR) <
zp...@cdc.gov>:
working for "the real" IBM), so I might have some points to bring in:
- Best scenario I've worked was for a customer that kept 1 key-person for
each area (z/OS, DB2, etc.). This person would bring historical knowledge,
technical knowledge and sense of urgency depending on the situation. Weekly
checkpoint meetings kept the teams aligned with what the customer desired;
- SLAs MUST be carefully reviewed and agreed. Both sides could and WILL use
it "against" the other side. If SLA is met, then no problem, no matter
what's going on. Short-term contracts (3-5 years instead of 10-15 years)
allow for a better SLA adjustment down the road;
- There MUST be some sort of responsibility matrix with DETAILED activites
(generic activites like "maintain systems" are too broad). Just by looking
at this matrix, you should be able to tell: who's responsible for doing X?
who's to be informed about X? who should be consulted if doing X?;
- Outsourcers will probably request a lot of documentation (that in-house
companies probably don't even have). This is vital! Part of the issues that
might come could be avoided with a good documentation to start with;
- Projects (processor upgrade, OS upgrade, router replacements, etc.) will
most likely be treated like so (PROJECTS). Which means that probably a
Project Manager will have to be involved to make teams talk to each other.
Some overhead in these activities have to be considered;
There are good and there are bad people working on outsourcerers, but I
*guess* this is everywhere though, so no news.
Where I worked, people tend to "standardize" the systems the most they can
after transition has stabilized. This means the less exits, the better.
Keep in mind the outsourcerer might have many clients and when someone gets
called in the middle of the night it might be hard to remember the
peculiarities of one of them.
On the other hand teams are usually able to compare cross-customers
solutions and propose enhancements should they apply.
Hope this helps a bit.
Regards,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Lucas Rosalen*
Emails: rosale...@gmail.com / *lros...@pl.ibm.com
<lros...@br.ibm.com>*
LinkedIn: http://br.linkedin.com/in/lrosalen
Phone: +48 792 809 198
2016-02-25 18:00 GMT-03:00 Burrell, C. Todd (CDC/OCOO/OCIO/ITSO) (CTR) <
zp...@cdc.gov>:
Ed Gould
Feb 25, 2016, 6:18:34 PM2/25/16
to
On Feb 25, 2016, at 2:51 PM, Sankaranarayanan, Vignesh wrote:
> No one's forcing you to Ed. But I'm guessing you're helping around
> here because you love what you do, not because you want to help
> "your people" alone.
> One can't learn a lot from equals, and one certainly can't learn a
> lot from those who are (for the lack of a more sensitive phrase)
> below them.
> Sure, if this community doesn't want to help, that means workload
> mounts for IBM in the form of a trillion more service requests lol.
> But those who are here to learn will find a way.
>
> - Vignesh
> Mainframe Infrastructure
-------------------------------------------------
> No one's forcing you to Ed. But I'm guessing you're helping around
> here because you love what you do, not because you want to help
> "your people" alone.
> One can't learn a lot from equals, and one certainly can't learn a
> lot from those who are (for the lack of a more sensitive phrase)
> below them.
> Sure, if this community doesn't want to help, that means workload
> mounts for IBM in the form of a trillion more service requests lol.
> But those who are here to learn will find a way.
>
> - Vignesh
> Mainframe Infrastructure
SNIP---------------------------
Then have your employer pop for education because that is how *WE*
did it.
I don't have an issue of answering questions but it is NOT a one way
street.
Go to SHARE (or your area equivalence). In years past I have paid for
my OWN trip to GUIDE/SHARE out of my own pocket.
Have you done the same. It occurs to me that you see IBM-MAIN as a
one way street, it isn't its a group and we all contribute not just
ask questions.
Savor, Thomas , Alpharetta
Feb 25, 2016, 7:39:16 PM2/25/16
to
Vignesh,
Until you have had your job (your way of life) ripped away from you, you cant get upset when folks get testy.
Management loves to tell their bosses that we are going to Outsource IT....saving boat loads of money, but of course they will get a huge bonus once its Outsourced. Then they will disappear once there is a debris field of problems. Who's going to get them out of the ditch.....well those same folks that you either laid-off, forced to retire or if you are lucky, still work there.
We know that Outsourced folks aren't as good as local staff....problem is Management doesn't see it that way.
They see a Cobol programmer is a Cobol programmer....not a Cobol programmer with 40 years experience and 20-30 years on an application verses a Cobol programmer right out of school. Those 40 years of experience has shown me how to code a program or how to fix a problem.....unfortunately many times it's because we know what will NOT work. So, once we find a way or method of doing things, we stick with it....it's called experience.
One of the reasons these guys and gals know soooo much about Z/oS Operating System is because they didn't start at Z/oS, many started back in the DOS/VS days. My opinion, Systems folks "had" to know a lot more about the Operating System then they do today. They didn't have all the fancy cool tools that say Candle or CA or BMC put out today. Many times, they had to roll up their sleeves and make Programming changes to the Operating System or to an Application in a ditch.
From an application side, there was no such thing as a job scheduler. Scheduling jobs was a part of the Lead Operators job. Along with knowing what jobs can run together....enough memory or what disk packs were mounted. When was the last time you mounted disk packs each night ?? I used to do it all the time....now, no one does it.
I personally don't like Outsourcing at all. The joke is that, this can be done and no one will notice or there wont be "much" of a cost. How much cost is the Business willing to take ?? How much control are you willing to give up ?? Is it good business to have business in one Country, IT in another ?? Could be HUGE Customer Privacy or Business interests when IT is in a different Country. As a vendor, how do I know that my code will be safe in another Country ??
Sorry guys, off my box now....back to work.
Thanks,
Tom Savor
Until you have had your job (your way of life) ripped away from you, you cant get upset when folks get testy.
Management loves to tell their bosses that we are going to Outsource IT....saving boat loads of money, but of course they will get a huge bonus once its Outsourced. Then they will disappear once there is a debris field of problems. Who's going to get them out of the ditch.....well those same folks that you either laid-off, forced to retire or if you are lucky, still work there.
We know that Outsourced folks aren't as good as local staff....problem is Management doesn't see it that way.
They see a Cobol programmer is a Cobol programmer....not a Cobol programmer with 40 years experience and 20-30 years on an application verses a Cobol programmer right out of school. Those 40 years of experience has shown me how to code a program or how to fix a problem.....unfortunately many times it's because we know what will NOT work. So, once we find a way or method of doing things, we stick with it....it's called experience.
One of the reasons these guys and gals know soooo much about Z/oS Operating System is because they didn't start at Z/oS, many started back in the DOS/VS days. My opinion, Systems folks "had" to know a lot more about the Operating System then they do today. They didn't have all the fancy cool tools that say Candle or CA or BMC put out today. Many times, they had to roll up their sleeves and make Programming changes to the Operating System or to an Application in a ditch.
From an application side, there was no such thing as a job scheduler. Scheduling jobs was a part of the Lead Operators job. Along with knowing what jobs can run together....enough memory or what disk packs were mounted. When was the last time you mounted disk packs each night ?? I used to do it all the time....now, no one does it.
I personally don't like Outsourcing at all. The joke is that, this can be done and no one will notice or there wont be "much" of a cost. How much cost is the Business willing to take ?? How much control are you willing to give up ?? Is it good business to have business in one Country, IT in another ?? Could be HUGE Customer Privacy or Business interests when IT is in a different Country. As a vendor, how do I know that my code will be safe in another Country ??
Sorry guys, off my box now....back to work.
Thanks,
Tom Savor
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Sankaranarayanan, Vignesh
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 3:52 PM
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Sankaranarayanan, Vignesh
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 3:52 PM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Outsourcing Stories Good or Bad!
>No one's forcing you to Ed. But I'm guessing you're helping around here because you love what you do, not because you >want to help "your people" alone.
>One can't learn a lot from equals, and one certainly can't learn a lot from those who are (for the lack of a more sensitive >phrase) below them.
>Sure, if this community doesn't want to help, that means workload mounts for IBM in the form of a trillion more service >requests lol.
>But those who are here to learn will find a way.
- Vignesh
Mainframe Infrastructure
Subject: Re: Outsourcing Stories Good or Bad!
>No one's forcing you to Ed. But I'm guessing you're helping around here because you love what you do, not because you >want to help "your people" alone.
>One can't learn a lot from equals, and one certainly can't learn a lot from those who are (for the lack of a more sensitive >phrase) below them.
>Sure, if this community doesn't want to help, that means workload mounts for IBM in the form of a trillion more service >requests lol.
>But those who are here to learn will find a way.
- Vignesh
Mainframe Infrastructure
Farley, Peter x23353
Feb 25, 2016, 7:58:40 PM2/25/16
to
To me, the most important thing that is lost in outsourcing is the friendly call or deskside chat between a curious/puzzled application programmer and a cooperative/knowledgeable systems staff person. In my applications career I have always made it a particular point to be polite and friendly with the systems staff and to cultivate their good opinion of me, since they were usually far more senior in experience and knowledge than I was. I also tried to learn from them and not make the same dumb mistake more than once (OK, maybe twice . . . :).
Outsourced systems staff means formal and tightly controlled contact procedures, prioritized question/research lists, where outsourced projects like hardware and software upgrades mean application questions and puzzles get very short shrift and low priority, if indeed they ever get answered at all. Eventually the questions are directed elsewhere (like to this list), or they just do not get answered at all because they are never asked.
As a senior applications developer now I get some of the questions and puzzles from other application programmers, even from some of my peers in seniority and experience, because no one person knows it all. The loss of those informal communications channels with the systems staff is IMHO a serious loss to the corporation as well as to the individual programmers.
But what do I know, I'm just a programmer, not a manager. The only time I count beans is for chile con carne.
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark Wilson
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 5:31 AM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Outsourced systems staff means formal and tightly controlled contact procedures, prioritized question/research lists, where outsourced projects like hardware and software upgrades mean application questions and puzzles get very short shrift and low priority, if indeed they ever get answered at all. Eventually the questions are directed elsewhere (like to this list), or they just do not get answered at all because they are never asked.
As a senior applications developer now I get some of the questions and puzzles from other application programmers, even from some of my peers in seniority and experience, because no one person knows it all. The loss of those informal communications channels with the systems staff is IMHO a serious loss to the corporation as well as to the individual programmers.
But what do I know, I'm just a programmer, not a manager. The only time I count beans is for chile con carne.
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark Wilson
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 5:31 AM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Outsourcing Stories Good or Bad!
I am working with a client in Europe that is being requested by his senior management team to look at outsourcing their IT systems, including their system z platform.
Would anyone be willing to share any war stories of their experiences with Outsourcing good or bad?
Offline from the list via email or for anyone attending Share in Texas willing to have a coffee/beer and discuss face to face.
Mark
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I am working with a client in Europe that is being requested by his senior management team to look at outsourcing their IT systems, including their system z platform.
Would anyone be willing to share any war stories of their experiences with Outsourcing good or bad?
Offline from the list via email or for anyone attending Share in Texas willing to have a coffee/beer and discuss face to face.
Mark
--
Ted MacNEIL
Feb 25, 2016, 8:54:58 PM2/25/16
to
What he said!
-teD
Original Message
From: Savor, Thomas (Alpharetta)
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 19:39
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Reply To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
-teD
Original Message
From: Savor, Thomas (Alpharetta)
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 19:39
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Reply To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
Robert S. Hansel , RSH
Feb 26, 2016, 5:25:53 AM2/26/16
to
Hi Mark,
See the article "Outsource Risk" in the October 2014 edition of our RACF Tips newsletter.
http://www.rshconsulting.com/racftips/RSH_Consulting__RACF_Tips__October_2014.pdf
Regards, Bob
Robert S. Hansel
Lead RACF Specialist
RSH Consulting, Inc.
617-969-8211
www.linkedin.com/in/roberthansel
http://twitter.com/RSH_RACF
www.rshconsulting.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Upcoming RSH RACF Training
- RACF Audit & Compliance Roadmap - APR 11-15, 2016
- RACF Level I Administration - MAY 17-20, 2016
- RACF Level II Administration -MAY 3-5, 2016
- RACF Level III Admin, Audit, & Compliance - JUN 14-16, 2016
- Securing z/OS UNIX - WebEx - JUL 25-29, 2016
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 10:31:14 +0000
From: Mark Wilson <ma...@RSMPARTNERS.COM>
Subject: Outsourcing Stories Good or Bad!
I am working with a client in Europe that is being requested by his senior management team to look at outsourcing their IT systems, including their system z platform.
Would anyone be willing to share any war stories of their experiences with Outsourcing good or bad?
Offline from the list via email or for anyone attending Share in Texas willing to have a coffee/beer and discuss face to face.
Mark
See the article "Outsource Risk" in the October 2014 edition of our RACF Tips newsletter.
http://www.rshconsulting.com/racftips/RSH_Consulting__RACF_Tips__October_2014.pdf
Regards, Bob
Robert S. Hansel
Lead RACF Specialist
RSH Consulting, Inc.
617-969-8211
www.linkedin.com/in/roberthansel
http://twitter.com/RSH_RACF
www.rshconsulting.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Upcoming RSH RACF Training
- RACF Audit & Compliance Roadmap - APR 11-15, 2016
- RACF Level I Administration - MAY 17-20, 2016
- RACF Level II Administration -MAY 3-5, 2016
- RACF Level III Admin, Audit, & Compliance - JUN 14-16, 2016
- Securing z/OS UNIX - WebEx - JUL 25-29, 2016
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2016 10:31:14 +0000
From: Mark Wilson <ma...@RSMPARTNERS.COM>
Subject: Outsourcing Stories Good or Bad!
I am working with a client in Europe that is being requested by his senior management team to look at outsourcing their IT systems, including their system z platform.
Would anyone be willing to share any war stories of their experiences with Outsourcing good or bad?
Offline from the list via email or for anyone attending Share in Texas willing to have a coffee/beer and discuss face to face.
Mark
John McKown
Feb 26, 2016, 8:16:18 AM2/26/16
to
On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 6:37 PM, Savor, Thomas (Alpharetta) <
Thomas...@fiserv.com> wrote:
> <snip>
looking to just lay off 1 person, I was on the chopping block. Mainly
because I was the most expensive person in the group. What saved me? I came
in one morning to a hectic ant hill of activity. Turns out a critical
application had failed during earlier that night. I had not been called
because "it's an application problem". But, having nothing better to do
that morning, I decided to give a look at it. About 10 minutes later, I got
with my boss and said "why don't we try ... after all, it isn't going to be
more broken afterwards". Another 10 minutes to implement (they were
desperate and just tried it) and "poof" the problem is solved. They had
been working on this for over 5 hours. Need I say that I was removed from
the list of potential people to be released? Is it because I'm
just inherently good? Well, more likely it's because I've seen a _lot_ of
failures in my time. Like Thomas Edison said: "
*I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." *I
know a lot of things which "won't work".
It cuts down the "solution space".
--
The man has the intellect of a lobotomized turtle.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown
Thomas...@fiserv.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>
>
> We know that Outsourced folks aren't as good as local staff....problem is
> Management doesn't see it that way.
> They see a Cobol programmer is a Cobol programmer....not a Cobol
> programmer with 40 years experience and 20-30 years on an application
> verses a Cobol programmer right out of school. Those 40 years of
> experience has shown me how to code a program or how to fix a
> problem.....unfortunately many times it's because we know what will NOT
> work. So, once we find a way or method of doing things, we stick with
> it....it's called experience.
>
>
I have a story on experience. Apparently a few years ago, when we were
>
> We know that Outsourced folks aren't as good as local staff....problem is
> Management doesn't see it that way.
> They see a Cobol programmer is a Cobol programmer....not a Cobol
> programmer with 40 years experience and 20-30 years on an application
> verses a Cobol programmer right out of school. Those 40 years of
> experience has shown me how to code a program or how to fix a
> problem.....unfortunately many times it's because we know what will NOT
> work. So, once we find a way or method of doing things, we stick with
> it....it's called experience.
>
>
looking to just lay off 1 person, I was on the chopping block. Mainly
because I was the most expensive person in the group. What saved me? I came
in one morning to a hectic ant hill of activity. Turns out a critical
application had failed during earlier that night. I had not been called
because "it's an application problem". But, having nothing better to do
that morning, I decided to give a look at it. About 10 minutes later, I got
with my boss and said "why don't we try ... after all, it isn't going to be
more broken afterwards". Another 10 minutes to implement (they were
desperate and just tried it) and "poof" the problem is solved. They had
been working on this for over 5 hours. Need I say that I was removed from
the list of potential people to be released? Is it because I'm
just inherently good? Well, more likely it's because I've seen a _lot_ of
failures in my time. Like Thomas Edison said: "
*I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." *I
know a lot of things which "won't work".
It cuts down the "solution space".
--
The man has the intellect of a lobotomized turtle.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown
Sankaranarayanan, Vignesh
Feb 26, 2016, 11:22:22 AM2/26/16
to
@Ed,
"Then have your employer pop for education because that is how *WE* did it." Do you even understand how outsourcing companies stay alive. Nay, thrive?
I agree, I haven't contributed much (anything?) to the community, but I once did offer a REXX I wrote to which I heard nothing but crickets.
Maybe it was something only I needed and its implementation was way too specific to my environment.
@Tom,
It's not me who's getting upset, it's folks who are cross at us (instead of being so towards their employer). It's not like I don't understand having your job taken away from you for no fault of yours.
Again, you are seriously mistaken if you think anything bad that's happening to you is because of some technical individuals.
The problem is without a shadow of doubt with the big man who decided to value money (he thinks) instead of your jobs.
Of course Indian or wherever-the-hell-else based companies are going to jump at the opportunity of getting business. I don't think they'd mind being shady if it leads to getting more money. Business 101.
Dude, I don't doubt for a second that senior folk working on the m/f are top notch rockstars.
FYI, when I first got on the job, I had to "mount disk packs" and "z" in front of a crazy count of datasets each night to successfully finish that night's "batch".
I got out of it by writing a REXX that would do it for me, when my exp. was basically 3 months.
I don't like the o-word myself; makes me sick lol. Why would I be "passionately debating" with folks in my spare time when I could be having a beer or ten, unless I want to understand "the situation" better.
@John,
Guess what probably went on for the 5 hours? Repeated, repeated, repeated request for updates from up above and/or "ITIL-fulfilment teams". It may be as frequent as once in 2 minutes.
How can one expect any progress if one isn't allowed to work, and is now responsible for answering the same questions again and again.
Sure, you meant to convey a diff. point with this, but I'm just butting in.
- Vignesh
Mainframe Infrastructure
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ed Gould
Sent: Friday, Feb 26, 2016 4:48 AM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Outsourcing Stories Good or Bad!
"Then have your employer pop for education because that is how *WE* did it." Do you even understand how outsourcing companies stay alive. Nay, thrive?
I agree, I haven't contributed much (anything?) to the community, but I once did offer a REXX I wrote to which I heard nothing but crickets.
Maybe it was something only I needed and its implementation was way too specific to my environment.
@Tom,
It's not me who's getting upset, it's folks who are cross at us (instead of being so towards their employer). It's not like I don't understand having your job taken away from you for no fault of yours.
Again, you are seriously mistaken if you think anything bad that's happening to you is because of some technical individuals.
The problem is without a shadow of doubt with the big man who decided to value money (he thinks) instead of your jobs.
Of course Indian or wherever-the-hell-else based companies are going to jump at the opportunity of getting business. I don't think they'd mind being shady if it leads to getting more money. Business 101.
Dude, I don't doubt for a second that senior folk working on the m/f are top notch rockstars.
FYI, when I first got on the job, I had to "mount disk packs" and "z" in front of a crazy count of datasets each night to successfully finish that night's "batch".
I got out of it by writing a REXX that would do it for me, when my exp. was basically 3 months.
I don't like the o-word myself; makes me sick lol. Why would I be "passionately debating" with folks in my spare time when I could be having a beer or ten, unless I want to understand "the situation" better.
@John,
Guess what probably went on for the 5 hours? Repeated, repeated, repeated request for updates from up above and/or "ITIL-fulfilment teams". It may be as frequent as once in 2 minutes.
How can one expect any progress if one isn't allowed to work, and is now responsible for answering the same questions again and again.
Sure, you meant to convey a diff. point with this, but I'm just butting in.
- Vignesh
Mainframe Infrastructure
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ed Gould
Sent: Friday, Feb 26, 2016 4:48 AM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Outsourcing Stories Good or Bad!
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Doug Fuerst
Feb 26, 2016, 11:40:48 AM2/26/16
to
I believe that when he referenced "mounting" disk packs, he was
referring to 2314's and the 3336's for 3330's. And since I mounted tons
of them, I can definitively state that no REXX exec is going to mount
those packs. 3336's had to weigh 20 lbs. Each. When I would be called to
fix a propagating head crash, my arms would ache for days for a large
shop from dismounting, carry to the pack analyzer, mount it there, shove
the mirrors in, spin, dismount, remonut in the drive or set it aside and
do it all again. Ugh!
Doug Fuerst
Principal Consultant
BK Associates
718.921.2620 (O)
917.572.7364 (C)
do...@bkassociates.net
referring to 2314's and the 3336's for 3330's. And since I mounted tons
of them, I can definitively state that no REXX exec is going to mount
those packs. 3336's had to weigh 20 lbs. Each. When I would be called to
fix a propagating head crash, my arms would ache for days for a large
shop from dismounting, carry to the pack analyzer, mount it there, shove
the mirrors in, spin, dismount, remonut in the drive or set it aside and
do it all again. Ugh!
Doug Fuerst
Principal Consultant
BK Associates
718.921.2620 (O)
917.572.7364 (C)
do...@bkassociates.net
baby eklavya
Feb 26, 2016, 1:01:59 PM2/26/16
to
Vignesh ,
Please stop this arrogance...This is not a place to cry for the lack of
education / exposure you didn't get on the Mainframe . I am from India and
i respect the technicians in IBM MAIN a lot . When i started my career on
mainframe , nobody was there to train me on the subject which i badly
wanted and i was so scared to take up tasks on zos fearing i would mess up
something . Then i had to survive and started learning myself using the red
books and a lot of other documents available online .But then i found IBM
MAIN . This is the community which inspired me to stay on this technology
and Now i have completed 12 + years on zos and i owe most of my knowledge
to the legends here .
Like Ed said , this is not a one way street . If you cannot contribute here
, at least be polite to others and learn how to respect the individuals
with such a vast knowledge and experience .You have no right to humiliate
list members and if you think you can compare the skill levels ,sorry to
say , they are poles apart .In fact Unless you put your efforts , you
cannot learn anything . Nobody in IBM MAIN is sharing their knowledge
because they are bound to . But it is because they are real professionals
who had been on the system for so long and they know the pain of learning
all these concepts .It is their passion and maturity on the platform which
is making them respond to almost every query that is being posted here .
And there would be hundreds of people like me in this list who would agree
to what I am saying .
When management focus on cost reduction , they are not realizing what kind
of pathetic service is being delivered to the clients.
And those idiots believe that Mainframe can be learned in few weeks like
windows . "Oh my boy ! what is so difficult in migrating from RACF to CA
ACF2 on Z/os when you can install Norton Antivirus on Windows 7 . After all
, both are there to provide security ". To be honest , this is the sick
mentality of management folks which has eventually ruined the quality of
service that is being provided these days . And yes , i have seen ITIL
fulfillment teams who joins a Severity 1 incident bridge from nowhere and
keep asking for updates every second . The fun part is that , they don't
have a clue about Mainframe . There was an auditor in my previous firm who
kept on arguing why cant we setup zos similar to windows where the patches
are automatically downloaded and installed . And it took 2 weeks to make
him understand what is an RSU maintenance .
Finally , i don't intend to offend anyone here . I thought of writing this
here because I'am a fan of IBM MAIN and i cannot digest such arrogance from
amateurs on a list like this which has seen the best mainframe technicians
of the world .
Please stop this arrogance...This is not a place to cry for the lack of
education / exposure you didn't get on the Mainframe . I am from India and
i respect the technicians in IBM MAIN a lot . When i started my career on
mainframe , nobody was there to train me on the subject which i badly
wanted and i was so scared to take up tasks on zos fearing i would mess up
something . Then i had to survive and started learning myself using the red
books and a lot of other documents available online .But then i found IBM
MAIN . This is the community which inspired me to stay on this technology
and Now i have completed 12 + years on zos and i owe most of my knowledge
to the legends here .
Like Ed said , this is not a one way street . If you cannot contribute here
, at least be polite to others and learn how to respect the individuals
with such a vast knowledge and experience .You have no right to humiliate
list members and if you think you can compare the skill levels ,sorry to
say , they are poles apart .In fact Unless you put your efforts , you
cannot learn anything . Nobody in IBM MAIN is sharing their knowledge
because they are bound to . But it is because they are real professionals
who had been on the system for so long and they know the pain of learning
all these concepts .It is their passion and maturity on the platform which
is making them respond to almost every query that is being posted here .
And there would be hundreds of people like me in this list who would agree
to what I am saying .
When management focus on cost reduction , they are not realizing what kind
of pathetic service is being delivered to the clients.
And those idiots believe that Mainframe can be learned in few weeks like
windows . "Oh my boy ! what is so difficult in migrating from RACF to CA
ACF2 on Z/os when you can install Norton Antivirus on Windows 7 . After all
, both are there to provide security ". To be honest , this is the sick
mentality of management folks which has eventually ruined the quality of
service that is being provided these days . And yes , i have seen ITIL
fulfillment teams who joins a Severity 1 incident bridge from nowhere and
keep asking for updates every second . The fun part is that , they don't
have a clue about Mainframe . There was an auditor in my previous firm who
kept on arguing why cant we setup zos similar to windows where the patches
are automatically downloaded and installed . And it took 2 weeks to make
him understand what is an RSU maintenance .
Finally , i don't intend to offend anyone here . I thought of writing this
here because I'am a fan of IBM MAIN and i cannot digest such arrogance from
amateurs on a list like this which has seen the best mainframe technicians
of the world .
computer chyck
Feb 26, 2016, 3:03:39 PM2/26/16
to
Seen enough of this thread and need to contribute my 2 cents and rebut your rather arrogant and totally uncalled for responses.
Your response to @Ed,
Your response to It's not me who's getting upset, it's folks who are cross at us (instead of being so towards their employer). It's not like I don't understand having your job taken away from you for no fault of yours.
Your resonse to @John,
The Compchyk
Your response to @Ed,
"Then have your employer pop for education because that is how *WE* did it." Do you even understand how outsourcing companies stay alive. Nay, thrive?
I agree, I haven't contributed much (anything?) to the community, but I once did offer a REXX I wrote to which I heard nothing but crickets.
Maybe it was something only I needed and its implementation was way too specific to my environment.
You know when you spend more than a couple days staying up with only a cup of coffee getting your datacenter back up you're then allowed to cop an attitude here - we've all done it (more than once) and no only a REXX exec being contributed to the group isn't going garner respect here. Humility does and there's a healthy dose of it - just a suggestion.
I agree, I haven't contributed much (anything?) to the community, but I once did offer a REXX I wrote to which I heard nothing but crickets.
Maybe it was something only I needed and its implementation was way too specific to my environment.
Your response to It's not me who's getting upset, it's folks who are cross at us (instead of being so towards their employer). It's not like I don't understand having your job taken away from you for no fault of yours.
Again, you are seriously mistaken if you think anything bad that's happening to you is because of some technical individuals.
The problem is without a shadow of doubt with the big man who decided to value money (he thinks) instead of your jobs.
Of course Indian or wherever-the-hell-else based companies are going to jump at the opportunity of getting business. I don't think they'd mind being shady if it leads to getting more money. Business 101.
I personally will not be feeding the $hitty business model that is enveloping corporate America. I'll provide a direct reference to a manual or an article to assist but THAT'S IT. Nobody spoonfed any of us when we started our careers in fact I'm sure many have learned the lessons of a lifetime by being allowed to be knocked down a few notches. Those mistakes never happened again. Why should I spoon feed an answer when a manual exists and someone is too lazy to just go try it out and see what it does? Show incentive in that area you'll get a much more enthusiastic response here.
The problem is without a shadow of doubt with the big man who decided to value money (he thinks) instead of your jobs.
Of course Indian or wherever-the-hell-else based companies are going to jump at the opportunity of getting business. I don't think they'd mind being shady if it leads to getting more money. Business 101.
Your resonse to @John,
Guess what probably went on for the 5 hours? Repeated, repeated, repeated request for updates from up above and/or "ITIL-fulfilment teams". It may be as frequent as once in 2 minutes.
How can one expect any progress if one isn't allowed to work, and is now responsible for answering the same questions again and again.
Sure, you meant to convey a diff. point with this, but I'm just butting in.
You're preaching to the WRONG choir here! All of us who have reached senior level have been on these calls for hours on end (my record is 40 hours) AND showed up to work the next business day and needed to deal with these personalities. It's part of the job, get one with it no sympathies here.
How can one expect any progress if one isn't allowed to work, and is now responsible for answering the same questions again and again.
Sure, you meant to convey a diff. point with this, but I'm just butting in.
The Compchyk
Ed Gould
Feb 26, 2016, 5:54:06 PM2/26/16
to
On Feb 26, 2016, at 10:21 AM, Sankaranarayanan, Vignesh wrote:
> @Ed,
> "Then have your employer pop for education because that is how *WE*
> did it." Do you even understand how outsourcing companies stay
> alive. Nay, thrive?
> I agree, I haven't contributed much (anything?) to the community,
> but I once did offer a REXX I wrote to which I heard nothing but
> crickets.
> Maybe it was something only I needed and its implementation was way
> too specific to my environment.
--------------------------SNIP-------------------------------------
> @Ed,
> "Then have your employer pop for education because that is how *WE*
> did it." Do you even understand how outsourcing companies stay
> alive. Nay, thrive?
> I agree, I haven't contributed much (anything?) to the community,
> but I once did offer a REXX I wrote to which I heard nothing but
> crickets.
> Maybe it was something only I needed and its implementation was way
> too specific to my environment.
I certainly do know they work. I left a company and about 1 year
later they were outsourced first to INDIA then to IBM (there may have
been an intermediate outsourcer I lost track). I have friends who
stayed and to the one they left bitter and everyone said they should
have taken the buyout. Jobs here in the states are scare to non
existent. I was once unemployed for 6 months and yes it was extremely
tough. The only nibble I got was from company that IBM used for Level
2 DFHSM and it was 2/3 a continent away and I had to pay for all
transportation and for less money than I was making.
I refused it and went with a local (I use that in loose terms) and
not six months after I joined them they relocated to a semi southern
state and *NO* one went.
BTW its tough that you are on the receiving end of outsourcing but I
have little sympathy as the employer is still screwing its employees.
Happy that the pain is felt all around. The cost for education is
never cheap nor is travel to SHARE. But as I have said before if you
think its worth it then spring for yourself. THAT IS WHAT I DID.
I personally got a lot of the SHARE/GUIDE sessions especially when I
was chair of a committee. That took perseverance and the willingness
to travel at my employers expense and at mine.
If you want to go get a business case for it, that is what I did
(sometimes).
BTW there are people on here that are experts in REXX and can truly
write easy to understand execs. Take a look at those and you will see
elegant writing of execs. That is worth at least one trip to SHARE by
itself (and its free).
Sometimes its better to sit back and absorb.
Edward Finnell
Feb 26, 2016, 5:59:54 PM2/26/16
to
Thanks for the likes. Darren said as a part time instructor he is allowed
to continue to maintain ibm-main.
I know I've learned a lot and while the topics drift, think in general it's
been a positive contribution to the industry.
I don't know about Internet years, acrobatic squirrels or leap seconds,
but ibm-main will be 30 yrs active in June!
In a message dated 2/26/2016 12:01:58 P.M. Central Standard Time,
to continue to maintain ibm-main.
I know I've learned a lot and while the topics drift, think in general it's
been a positive contribution to the industry.
I don't know about Internet years, acrobatic squirrels or leap seconds,
but ibm-main will be 30 yrs active in June!
In a message dated 2/26/2016 12:01:58 P.M. Central Standard Time,
baby.e...@GMAIL.COM writes:
Finally , i don't intend to offend anyone here . I thought of writing this
here because I'am a fan of IBM MAIN and i cannot digest such arrogance
from
amateurs on a list like this which has seen the best mainframe technicians
of the world .
Finally , i don't intend to offend anyone here . I thought of writing this
here because I'am a fan of IBM MAIN and i cannot digest such arrogance
from
amateurs on a list like this which has seen the best mainframe technicians
of the world .
Rob Schramm
Feb 26, 2016, 6:29:14 PM2/26/16
to
That is something to celebrate!!
--
Rob Schramm
The Art of Mainframe, Inc
Rob Schramm
The Art of Mainframe, Inc
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