Mainframe operating systems

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Joel C. Ewing

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Feb 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/19/00
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ian brown wrote:
> Advance apologies if this post is irrelevant to the newsgroup.
>
> I am an MQSeries consultant looking to swot up on the mainframe versions of
> MQSeries, I have spent the best part of a day searching the web, but I
> cannot find a clear answer to my questions.
>
> I am trying to find the relationship between OS/390, MVS/ESA, VSE/ESA and
> VM/ESA. More specifically what is the difference between MQSeries for OS/390
> and MQSeries for MVS/ESA.
>
> If someone could point me in the right direction, prefrably to a nice
> colourful diagram, I would be most grateful.
> Thanks.

There are 2 major Operating System families for S/360/370/390 plus the
VM family, which I'm not sure whether to call an Operating System or a
Control Program.
VSE/ESA is the most current of the sequence of operating systems DOS
-> DOS/VS -> DOS/VSE -> VSE -> VSE/ESA.
OS/390 is the most current version in the (approximate) sequence
OS/360 -> OS/MFT -> OS/MVT -> OS/SVS -> OS/MVS -> MVS/SP -> MVS/XA ->
MVS/ESA -> OS/390.
The VSE family has been at least historically simpler, cheaper, and
designed to support smaller and less complex configurations than
OS/390. The Job Control Language and Application-to-System interfaces
are different in these two families, so object code using any system
calls, while generally upward compatible within a family, is
incompatable across the families, although applications written in a
high-level language may only require a recompile.

VM/ESA, the most current of the VM family, uses software and special
hardware assists to logically partition a physical machine into
multiple, independent virtual machines, with each of these virtual
machines capable of running an instance of an operating system from
either the OS/390 family or the VSE/ESA family, or one of a number of
applications designed specifically for the VM virtual machine
environment (or even another instance of VM). VM also supports running
individual "user" virtual machines which can be used for interactive
program/application development or running single-user applications.

MQSeries for OS/390 is just a later release of MQSeries for MVS/ESA,
renamed to be consistent with the most current Operating System of the
OS/390 family. There might be significant changes, or this name change
could have been largely cosmetic. When OS/390 Rel 1.1 was introduced
(1996), it was mostly just a repackaging of MVS/ESA Ver 5 along with a
number of other products which were commonly required to make a
functional MVS system. OS/390 has evolved since then, but is still
basically MVS/ESA with more features and a number of related products
rolled together.

--
Joel C. Ewing, Fort Smith, AR jce...@acm.org

ian brown

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Feb 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/20/00
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Thanks for the clear & concise reply!


"Joel C. Ewing" <jce...@acm.org> wrote in message
news:38AEE57F...@acm.org...

Metz, Seymour

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Feb 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/22/00
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Not quite, even if you don't consider TPF to be major.

VM is just as much of an operating system as any of the others: it includes
CMS and GCS. The lineage is something like CP/40 -> CP/67 -> VMF/370 ->
VM/SE (SEPP) or it's little brother VM/BSE (BSEPP) -> VM/SP -> VM/SP HPO
with some divergences starting with VM/XA -> VM/XA SF -> VM/XA SP -> VM/ESA.

For VSE, you had VSE/AF and VSE/SP between DOS/VSE and VSE/ESA. I don't know
of any version that was called just VSE.

For the OS/360 family, MFT, MFT II and MVT were all sysgen options of
OS/360, not separate systems. With the advent of virtual storage, OS/360
split into an AOS1 (OS/VS1) line based on the MFT option and an AOS2
(OS?VS2) line based on the MVT option. OS/VS1 is now dead, and the OS/VS2
line ran OS/VS2 R1 (SVS) -> OS/VS2 R2 (MVS) -> MVS/SE -> MVS/SE2 -> MVS/SP
V1 -> MVS/SP V2 (MVS/XA) -> MVS/SP V3 (MVS/ESA) -> MVS/ESA -> OS/390. Keep
in mind that many of these were program products that installed on top of
the free MVS, most recently OS/VS2 3.8 with SU64, the base for MVS/SE2 and
MVS/SP. There were no versions called OS/MFT, OS/MVT, OS/SVS or OS/MVS.

I'm leaving out the role of such associated products as JES2 NJE and TSO/CP,
which have their own lineages.

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

Anne & Lynn Wheeler

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Feb 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/23/00
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one of the things that VM provided was clear seperation between
resource managerment (CP) and various system services (CMS) that
tended to be jumbled all together in other operating systems. As a
result, there was a constant focus on efficiency in the CP path
lengths (a focus that has not been there in other implementations).

In part it was possible for customers to constantly point out ... at
least in the guest cases, the with and w/o numbers i.e. what was the
thruput of running MVS with and w/o VM; ... when was the last time you
heard somebody complained about the benchmarked performance difference
of running a MVS application with & w/o MVS?

There has been some effort claiming the difference in thruput between
application run in VSE & MVS .. but MVS has tended to cloud the
thruput issues as having lots more function ... as opposed to any lack
of attention to thruput (although there was a situation where it was
possible to demonstrate higher VS1 thruput under VM with handshaking
than VS1 run standalone ... i.e. handshaking allowed VS1 to take
advantage of certian VM resource management facilities rather than
using its own).

Part of the thruput and pathlength focusability resulted in VM/CP
optimizations that rarely has been demonstrated by other
implementations. In part, it was also a significant factor giving rise
to LPARs (could be viewed as a microcode implementation of CP subset).


--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | ly...@adcomsys.net, ly...@garlic.com
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ http://www.adcomsys.net/lynn/

glen herrmannsfeldt

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Feb 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/23/00
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sm...@NSF.GOV (Metz, Seymour) writes:

(snip)

> There were no versions called OS/MFT, OS/MVT, OS/SVS or OS/MVS.

While I believe that this is technically true, I do have manuals
published by IBM that mention "OS/MVT". They weren't completely
consistent on this.

-- glen


David A. Cobb

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Feb 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/26/00
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I would have been pretty certain myself on "OS/MFT" and "OS/MVT."

Would it not, in fact, be accurate to say that MVS is son of OS/MVT,
and VSE is son of OS/MFT? [Says he, donning his asbestos shorts]

And let us not forget LSMFT.

glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:

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Bob Rutledge

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Feb 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/26/00
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"David A. Cobb" wrote:
>
> I would have been pretty certain myself on "OS/MFT" and "OS/MVT."
>
> Would it not, in fact, be accurate to say that MVS is son of OS/MVT,

Grandchild would be closer.

> and VSE is son of OS/MFT?

No. Separate lineage. Essentially, OS/MFT begat OS/VS1 which ended the line.

[Says he, donning his asbestos shorts]

Whatever winds your watch.

> And let us not forget LSMFT.

Although I no longer use them, I do remember when they were .19$USD per pack and
I remember all the other things LSMFT used to mean amongst the adolescents of
the time.

<snip>

Bob

Steve Samson

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Feb 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/26/00
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David,

Sorry, asbestos is not politically acceptable these days, and LS Green
is...?

MVS is indeed a descendant of OS/360 MVT, but not the son--SVS was the
son. VSE is not related to OS/360 at all. It is the grandchild of
DOS/360 via DOS/VS. VS1 was the son of MFT.

Steve Samson

"David A. Cobb" wrote:
>
> I would have been pretty certain myself on "OS/MFT" and "OS/MVT."
>
> Would it not, in fact, be accurate to say that MVS is son of OS/MVT,

> and VSE is son of OS/MFT? [Says he, donning his asbestos shorts]

Anne & Lynn Wheeler

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Feb 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/26/00
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MVT .... SVS ... i.e. MVT laid out in single 16mbyte "virtual address
space" doing own its paging. Initial implementation (i.e. AOS2) was
effectively MVT with some tweaks, a page fault handler and the
CCWTRANS module from the CP/67 "I" system (i.e. the internal version
of CP/67 modified to run on 370 relocate architecture instead of
360/67 relocate architecture). I seem to remember some night shift
testing in the 705(?) machine room (i may even remember some names).

MVS then lots more rewrite ... with workload spread out in multiple
address spaces. Lot of issues during the 24bit days because the kernel
residing in the same address space as the applications ... and
attempting to preserve the 8mbyte/8mbyte split getting to be real
interesting as system/kernel requirements began to exceed 8mbyte
limit.

MFT ... VS1

DOS ... DOS/VS ... DOS/VSE ... VSE

Bob Halpern

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Feb 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/26/00
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In the beginning:
OS was PCP (primary control program)
Then PCP or MFT I believe MFT showed up in release 5.
Then PCP or MFT II MFT II 8.
Then PCP or MVT. MVT and TSO 13.

DOS was a different system and grew from a subset of OS specification.
It continued to DOS/VS and VSE. A 3rd party product had DOS/MVT.

The next generation of OS had MFT growing into VS1. VS1 died after V7.
MVS SVS

Then SVS grew into MVS.


"David A. Cobb" wrote:
>
> I would have been pretty certain myself on "OS/MFT" and "OS/MVT."
>
> Would it not, in fact, be accurate to say that MVS is son of OS/MVT,
> and VSE is son of OS/MFT? [Says he, donning his asbestos shorts]
>
> And let us not forget LSMFT.
>

> glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
>
> > sm...@NSF.GOV (Metz, Seymour) writes:
> >
> > (snip)
> >
> > > There were no versions called OS/MFT, OS/MVT, OS/SVS or OS/MVS.
> >
> > While I believe that this is technically true, I do have manuals
> > published by IBM that mention "OS/MVT". They weren't completely
> > consistent on this.
> >
> > -- glen
>

Ken Brick

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Feb 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/26/00
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>>Would it not, in fact, be accurate to say that MVS is son of OS/MVT,
>>and VSE is son of OS/MFT? [Says he, donning his asbestos shorts]

No VSE is the son of DOS/VS. From memory it went DOS (to Rel. 27) then
DOS/VS, DOS/VS Advanced function, DOS/VSE and finally DOS/ESA.

Beyond the fact that they had to run on the same 360 architecture I'm
not sure how much they had in common(OS and DOS). Even the JCL was very
different .

--
Ken Brick
Brick Computer Services Ltd.
kbr...@netspace.net.au
PH: 613 9817 5506
Mob. 0409009764

Will Scratchley

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Feb 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/27/00
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In article <38B83DB8...@home.com>, IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU> wrote:
>I would have been pretty certain myself on "OS/MFT" and "OS/MVT."
>
>Would it not, in fact, be accurate to say that MVS is son of OS/MVT,
>and VSE is son of OS/MFT? [Says he, donning his asbestos shorts]
>
OS/MVT evolved into OS/VS2 (SVS and then MVS and then OS/390)

OS/MFT evolved into OS/VS1

VSE's lineage is DOS, then DOS/VS

Will Scratchley
scr...@eclipse.net

joh...@my-deja.com

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Feb 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/27/00
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My grandfather told me stories about the original OS after DOS, before
even MFT and MVT. It was called PCP, the Primary Control Program and
lived a short while.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Bo Goersch

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Feb 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/27/00
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One more correction...


> No VSE is the son of DOS/VS. From memory it went DOS (to Rel. 27) then
> DOS/VS, DOS/VS Advanced function, DOS/VSE and finally DOS/ESA.
>
>

The finally should be VSE/ESA....they did away with DOS when they took
away the 16meg limit.

Metz, Seymour

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Feb 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/27/00
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No way, Jose. Over and above the fact that there was no OS/MFT or OS/MVT:

MVS was the son of OS/360 MVT; I'm not sure whether 65MP had any influence
on it. I'm not sure how much commonality there was between SVS and MVS, but
from the customer side it looked like there was a lot of overlap. Also, I
believe that some of the work on RSS/360 carried over to MVS.

VSE does not derive from any flavor of OS/360. The approximate progression
was DOS/360 -> DOS/370 -> DOS/VS -> DOS/VSE -> VSE/AF -> VSE/SP -> VSE/ESA.

The successor to OS/360 MFT II was OS/VS1, with a program product that you
could install on top of later releases of OS/VS1 (BPE?) in order to support
VCNA.


Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David A. Cobb [SMTP:super...@HOME.COM]
> Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 3:55 PM
>
> I would have been pretty certain myself on "OS/MFT" and "OS/MVT."
>
> Would it not, in fact, be accurate to say that MVS is son of OS/MVT,
> and VSE is son of OS/MFT? [Says he, donning his asbestos shorts]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Metz, Seymour

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Feb 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/27/00
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OS/360 release 14 included the PCP, MFT and MVT option; MFT II was much
later (15/16?) and TSO was even later.(20.1?). Release 14 didn't even have
CRJE or ITF, much less TSO.

WAITR, please SHIFT away this PRSCB: I didn't order it!

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Halpern [SMTP:B...@CPUPERFORM.COM]
> Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 6:22 PM
>
> In the beginning:
> OS was PCP (primary control program)
> Then PCP or MFT I believe MFT showed up in release 5.
> Then PCP or MFT II MFT II 8.
> Then PCP or MVT. MVT and TSO 13.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob Rutledge

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Feb 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/27/00
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TSS. Not enough of it! SMS could have been a lot simpler.

Bob

"Metz, Seymour" wrote:
>
<snip>


>
Also, I believe that some of the work on RSS/360 carried over to MVS.
>

<snip>

Metz, Seymour

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Feb 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/27/00
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Isn't that implicit in "Where's dynamic linking?"? And yes, it would make
our lives easier.


Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Rutledge [SMTP:deer...@IX.NETCOM.COM]
> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 5:17 PM
>
> Can you say PSECT, in the original (TSS) sense? Wouldn't that make our
> lives
> easier?

Metz, Seymour

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Feb 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/27/00
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TSS? Where's TSSS? Where's VIPAM? Where are page formatted volumes? Where is
dynamic linking? I don't know of anything in MVS that derives from TSS,
alas.


Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Rutledge [SMTP:deer...@IX.NETCOM.COM]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 4:49 PM
>
> TSS. Not enough of it! SMS could have been a lot simpler.
>
> Bob
>
> "Metz, Seymour" wrote:
> >
> <snip>
> >
> Also, I believe that some of the work on RSS/360 carried over to MVS.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob Rutledge

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Feb 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/27/00
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Can you say PSECT, in the original (TSS) sense? Wouldn't that make our lives
easier?

Bob

"Metz, Seymour" wrote:
>
> TSS? Where's TSSS? Where's VIPAM? Where are page formatted volumes? Where is
> dynamic linking? I don't know of anything in MVS that derives from TSS,
> alas.
>
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>

<snip>

Doug Fuerst

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Feb 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/27/00
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Let's not forget CP67 now.


At 17:59 27-02-00 +0000, you wrote:
>In article <38B86018...@CPUperform.com>,


>Bob Halpern <IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU> wrote:
>>In the beginning:
>> OS was PCP (primary control program)
>> Then PCP or MFT I believe MFT showed up in release 5.
>> Then PCP or MFT II MFT II 8.
>> Then PCP or MVT. MVT and TSO 13.
>

>That last line should be: Then PCP or MFT or MVT . . . . .
>Both PCP and MFT (more properly MFTII) continued to rel 21.
>--
>Rich Greenberg Work: Rich.Greenberg atsign worldspan.com +1 770-563-6656
>N6LRT Marietta, GA, USA Play: richgr atsign netcom.com +1 770-321-6507
>Eastern time zone. I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since CP-67
>Canines:Val(Chinook,CGC,TT),Red(Husky,(RIP)),Shasta(Husky,TT) Owner:Chinook-L
>Atlanta Siberian Husky Rescue. Adopt a homeless Husky. Asst Owner:Sibernet-L


>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>send email to list...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO

Doug Fuerst

Bill Lynch

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
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"David A. Cobb" wrote:
>
> I would have been pretty certain myself on "OS/MFT" and "OS/MVT."
>
> Would it not, in fact, be accurate to say that MVS is son of OS/MVT,
> and VSE is son of OS/MFT? [Says he, donning his asbestos shorts]
>
> And let us not forget LSMFT.

Just being pedantic, I think it was: "LS/MFT". BTW, VSE is the son of
DOS.

Bill Lynch

Rich Greenberg

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
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In article <4.1.200002271...@127.0.0.1>,

Doug Fuerst <IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU> wrote:
>Let's not forget CP67 now.

Thats a whole 'nother family.

CP-40, CP-67, VM/370, VM/SP, VM/SP-HPO, VM/SF, VM/MA, VM/XA, VM/ESA.

VM/ESA is the only one that stayed around long enough to hit Version 2.
2.4.0 is the latest.

Gerard S.

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
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Rich Greenberg wrote in message <89coag$c4i$1...@nntp6.atl.mindspring.net>...
_________________________________________________________________________

Don't forget VM/370 BSEP and also VM/370 SEP

---- a VM'e since VM/370 Rel 1. ---- not too many of us old timers left, and
yes,
I used VM/MA --- found more bugs (APARed) in it than my I.Q. heh heh heh ---
now,
don't nobody call me stupid.

Gerard S.

Gerard S.

Jeffery Swagger

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
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What was RSS/360?

----
Jeff

"Metz, Seymour" <sm...@NSF.GOV> wrote in message
news:0D93FE5CA0BED11194CB...@nsfmail01.nsf.gov...
> from the customer side it looked like there was a lot of overlap. Also, I

Metz, Seymour

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
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You don't have all of the names right, and are missing a few. Off the top of
my head, VMF/370, VMF/370 with VM/SE (SEPP) or VM/BSE (BSEPP), VM/XA MA,
VM/XA SF and VM/XA SP.


Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rich Greenberg [SMTP:ric...@NETCOM.COM]
> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 9:59 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
>
> In article <4.1.200002271...@127.0.0.1>,
> Doug Fuerst <IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU> wrote:
> >Let's not forget CP67 now.
>
> Thats a whole 'nother family.
>
> CP-40, CP-67, VM/370, VM/SP, VM/SP-HPO, VM/SF, VM/MA, VM/XA, VM/ESA.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Rick Fochtman

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
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<snip>
"David A. Cobb" wrote:

> I would have been pretty certain myself on "OS/MFT" and "OS/MVT."
>
> Would it not, in fact, be accurate to say that MVS is son of OS/MVT,
> and VSE is son of OS/MFT? [Says he, donning his asbestos shorts]
>
> And let us not forget LSMFT.
>

> <unsnip>

I would say that MVS and VSE are descendants of MVT and MFT, but not
sons. There's a LOT of evolution between. And I smoked Luckies for 30
years!
(LSMFT = Lucky Strike Means Fine Tobacco)

Rick Fochtman

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
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<snip>

> Let's not forget CP67 now.
>

> <unsnip>

If memory serves me, that was the "home" of the first page-formatted volumes. All
physical blocks were a single size and the system used those blocks to "simulate"
ckd devices, if anyone was foolish enough to write a program that required it.

Jeffrey Broido

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to


David,
Actually, no. VS2 R2, later called MVS can, indeed, be thought of as the
son of OS/360 MVT. But DOS/VSE is by no means the son of OS/360 MFT. It

Jeffrey Broido

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
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Jeffrey Broido

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
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Metz, Seymour

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
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No, CP used page-formatted volumes for paging and SPOOL, but CMS formatted
its own minidisks; the only simulation was relocating the addresses and
checking the bounds. However, VM/SP added a shared file system, and it may
have been page formatted.


Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

Metz, Seymour

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
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Resource Security System. Basically OS/360 with a lot of integrity holes
plugged up. I vaguely recall that some of it fed into the MVS development
and that some of it fed into the RACF development, but that was in a galaxy
long ago and far away, so don't quote me on it.


Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeffery Swagger [SMTP:jef...@MINDSPRING.COM]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 9:55 AM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
>

> What was RSS/360?

L. Patrick Allmond

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
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Thanks Jeff.

David : How big was the file you tried this on the other day?

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@bama.ua.edu]On
Behalf Of Jeffrey Broido
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 9:25 AM
To: IBM-...@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Anne & Lynn Wheeler

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
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sm...@NSF.GOV (Metz, Seymour) writes:

> No, CP used page-formatted volumes for paging and SPOOL, but CMS formatted
> its own minidisks; the only simulation was relocating the addresses and
> checking the bounds. However, VM/SP added a shared file system, and it may
> have been page formatted.
>

No, CP used page-formatted volumes for paging and SPOOL, but CMS formatted
its own minidisks; the only simulation was relocating the addresses and
checking the bounds. However, VM/SP added a shared file system, and it may
have been page formatted.

I built PAM for CMS ... paged access method originally on CP/67
... and some other virtual memory functions ... which were then ported
to VM/370 release 2 (there was a virtual memory management CSC
tech. report, describing dynamically loadable shared segments, as well
as dynamically relocatable shared segments ... aka the same shared
segment could appear at multiple different virtual addresses in
different address spaces, paged page tables, PAM, misc. other stuff).

This was deployed extensively inside IBM on release 2 base. The HONE
system (what all the branch & field people use) had a relase 2PLC15
system that was available around the world that included all the
features. Prior to the dynamically loadable shared segments ... VM/370
only supported mapping of shared segments with the simulated
IPL-by-name function. HONE was primarily delivered it service in APL
... which included a "padded-cell environment" for salesman and other
field people. To achieve performance, the APL interpreter had most of
its pages defined as a shared segment using an IPL-by-name
hack. However, there was several HONE applications written in Fortran
that required exiting from APL, executing Fortran application and
returning to APL. The HONE system built on VM/370 release 2plc15 made
extensive use of dynamically loadable shared segments for switching
back & forth between APL & fortran applications ... somewhat
transparently to the end-user.

A small subset of the dynamically loadable shared segments showed up
in VM/370 Release 3 in the guise of the LOADSYS command (the CMS
changes for putting several CMS applications in shared segment, a
subset of the CP function but w/o being able to have the same shared
segment show up as different virtual address in different address
spaces, no PAM ... and therefor no ability to specify shared segments
as part of loading a CMS executable from PAM formated disk).

The pageable page tables and some misc. other pieces (like the base
for multiprocessing infrastructure) did go out in the resource manager
later on in Vm/370 release 3.

The PAM stuff did ship somewhat in the VM release for XT/AT/370.

random refs:

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#31
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#3
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/97.html#4
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#23
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#38
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#149
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#5

--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | ly...@adcomsys.net, ly...@garlic.com
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ http://www.adcomsys.net/lynn/

Jeffrey Broido

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to

John Buckley

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to
Bob Rutledge wrote:

>
> No. Separate lineage. Essentially, OS/MFT begat OS/VS1 which ended the line.
>

This is one of two posts that states that OS/VS1 was the end a lineage. But isn't
there a relationship between OS/VS1 and JES?

jr

jbuckley.vcf

Doug Fuerst

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to
HASP (Houston Automatic Spooling Program) is the predecessor to JES2 as ASP
(Automatic or Asynchronous depending on who you talked to Spooling program)
was the predecessor to JES3. And yes you still find HASP references in the
JES2 code.

Doug Fuerst

Bruce Black

unread,
Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to
Yes, there was a spool component called JES on VS1 but I don't believe it had
any direct lineage to JES2/JES3.

John Buckley wrote:
>
> Bob Rutledge wrote:
>
> >
> > No. Separate lineage. Essentially, OS/MFT begat OS/VS1 which ended the line.
> >
>
> This is one of two posts that states that OS/VS1 was the end a lineage. But isn't
> there a relationship between OS/VS1 and JES?
>
> jr

--
Bruce A. Black
Senior Software Developer for
FDR, CPK, ABR, SOS, UPSTREAM, FATS/FATAR
Innovation Data Processing
Little Falls, NJ 07424
973-890-7300
personal: bbl...@fdrinnovation.com
sales info: sa...@fdrinnovation.com
tech support: sup...@fdrinnovation.com

Metz, Seymour

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to
Cloose: the P is Priority.


Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Fuerst [SMTP:djf...@LI.NET]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 12:28 PM
>
> HASP (Houston Automatic Spooling Program) is the predecessor to JES2 as
> ASP
> (Automatic or Asynchronous depending on who you talked to Spooling
> program)
> was the predecessor to JES3. And yes you still find HASP references in
> the
> JES2 code.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Metz, Seymour

unread,
Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to
OS/VS1 had a job entry subsystem, but that JES was not an ancestor to either
JES2 or JES3.


Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Buckley [SMTP:jbuc...@TIBCO.COM]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 12:12 PM
>
> This is one of two posts that states that OS/VS1 was the end a lineage.
> But isn't
> there a relationship between OS/VS1 and JES?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hall, Ken , ECSS

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to
Since we're on this topic, the guys working on the "Hercules" S/360/370/390
emulator are having quite a bit of fun playing with OS/360 MFT and MVT.
Seymour, you should get involved. I'm sure you'd be a great source of help
to them.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Metz, Seymour [SMTP:sm...@NSF.GOV]
> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 4:07 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
>

> OS/360 release 14 included the PCP, MFT and MVT option; MFT II was much
> later (15/16?) and TSO was even later.(20.1?). Release 14 didn't even have
> CRJE or ITF, much less TSO.
>
> WAITR, please SHIFT away this PRSCB: I didn't order it!


>
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Bob Halpern [SMTP:B...@CPUPERFORM.COM]
> > Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 6:22 PM
> >
> > In the beginning:
> > OS was PCP (primary control program)
> > Then PCP or MFT I believe MFT showed up in release 5.
> > Then PCP or MFT II MFT II 8.
> > Then PCP or MVT. MVT and TSO 13.
>

Anne & Lynn Wheeler

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to

I'm not sure who wrote the job entry subsystem for vs1 ....

but I first saw HASP at mft OS/11 (houston spooler out of SEs at nasa
houston). it continued thru mft & mvt. Along the way it became an
official product, the group moved to g'burg and renamed JES2.

There was also "ASP", done by SEs out of lockheed ... which eventually
was also picked up by the g'burg group, became a product and renamed
JES3. My wife was in the g'burg group at the time and she got to be
one of the ASP catchers ... starting out reading the ASP listings and
generating a PLM.

random references

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#2
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#15
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#2
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#18
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#35a
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#33
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#58
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#77
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#92
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#93
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#94
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#111
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#117
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#212
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#13

George Shedlock Jr

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to
No, actually on VS1 it was called RES.


Bruce Black <bbl...@FDRINNOVATION.COM> on 02/28/2000 12:35:10 PM

Please respond to IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU>

To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
cc: (bcc: George Shedlock/Corp/Chep USA)


Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems

Yes, there was a spool component called JES on VS1 but I don't believe it had


any direct lineage to JES2/JES3.

John Buckley wrote:
>
> Bob Rutledge wrote:
>
> >
> > No. Separate lineage. Essentially, OS/MFT begat OS/VS1 which ended the line.
> >
>

> This is one of two posts that states that OS/VS1 was the end a lineage. But
isn't
> there a relationship between OS/VS1 and JES?
>

> jr

Metz, Seymour

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to
No, remote entry services was the replacement for RJE, and it used the
services of JES.


Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: George Shedlock Jr [SMTP:gshe...@US.CHEP.COM]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 1:05 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
>

> No, actually on VS1 it was called RES.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Norman Hollander

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to
I think you are missing some of the players:

OS/VS1 (son of MFT)
SVS (short-lived son of VS1 crossbread with MVT to sort of create
MVS)

I thought DOS was a hardware emulated/software simulated thing than ran
under VS1
to provide 1401 emulation and simulation (emulated on 360s, simulated on
370/158s up
to 3033s)... Then RPG was discovered to work on the native platforms
without any
emu/simulation. (Aren't we still running autocoder, today?? <smile>)

Jeffrey Broido

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to

John Buckley

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to
Bruce Black wrote:

> Yes, there was a spool component called JES on VS1 but I don't believe it had
> any direct lineage to JES2/JES3.
>
> John Buckley wrote:
> >
> > Bob Rutledge wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > No. Separate lineage. Essentially, OS/MFT begat OS/VS1 which ended the line.
> > >
> >
> > This is one of two posts that states that OS/VS1 was the end a lineage. But isn't
> > there a relationship between OS/VS1 and JES?
> >
> > jr
>

> --
> Bruce A. Black
> Senior Software Developer for
> FDR, CPK, ABR, SOS, UPSTREAM, FATS/FATAR
> Innovation Data Processing
> Little Falls, NJ 07424
> 973-890-7300
> personal: bbl...@fdrinnovation.com
> sales info: sa...@fdrinnovation.com
> tech support: sup...@fdrinnovation.com
>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to list...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO

Back in the early 80's I was a computer operator running IMS in a guest OS/VS1 system
under VM/SP. When I got my first look at JES2, it's similarity (from an operator's
point of view) to OS/VS1 suggested to me that JES2 was in some way descended from
OS/VS1.

Well, I've been wrong before..................

jr

jbuckley.vcf

Metz, Seymour

unread,
Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to
No, SVS was a son of OS/360 MVT, although there was a great deal of
coordination between the AOS1 and AOS2 developers. DOS was an unrelated
system.

On the original S/360 1401 emulation was a feature of the low-end models and
the emulator programs were stand alone. Compatibility Operating System (COS)
was a kludge that allowed you to run 1401 emulation under DOS/360 on a model
40 or 50. Starting with the 360/85, IBM fixed the emulation features so that
you could run the emulation programs safely under an operating system, e.g.,
OS/360. Shortly afterwards IBM supplied a version of the 1401/1410 emulation
program that was capable of running on a machine without the 1401/1410
emulator feature, although it was faster with the feature.

You may also be thinking of the "DOS Emulation Feature", which provided
block relocation in order to run DOS/360 programs under OS/360.

"AUTOCODER? We don't need no stinking AUTOCODER! Real programmers use SPS!"


Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Norman Hollander [SMTP:holl...@PACBELL.NET]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 12:06 PM
>
> I think you are missing some of the players:
>
> OS/VS1 (son of MFT)
> SVS (short-lived son of VS1 crossbread with MVT to sort of
> create
> MVS)
>
> I thought DOS was a hardware emulated/software simulated thing than ran
> under VS1
> to provide 1401 emulation and simulation (emulated on 360s, simulated on
> 370/158s up
> to 3033s)... Then RPG was discovered to work on the native platforms
> without any
> emu/simulation. (Aren't we still running autocoder, today?? <smile>)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Norman Hollander

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to
That would be the equivalent of JES1- not to be confused
with JES2 (HASP) or JES3 (ASP). Although there was a FDP
for VS/1 that looked like HASP for VS/1 and RES.

Edward Jaffe

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to
Doug Fuerst wrote:
>
> HASP (Houston Automatic Spooling Program) is the predecessor to JES2 as ASP
> (Automatic or Asynchronous depending on who you talked to Spooling program)
> was the predecessor to JES3. And yes you still find HASP references in the
> JES2 code.

References? How about the fact that all of the JES2 messages still start
with HASP?

--
| Edward E. Jaffe | Voice: (310) 338-0400 x318 |
| Mgr., Research & Development | Fax: (310) 338-0801 |
| Phoenix Software International | edj...@phoenixsoftware.com |
| 5200 W. Century Blvd., Suite 800 | USS24J24 at IBMMAIL |
| Los Angeles, CA 90045 | http://www.phoenixsoftware.com |

Bob Halpern

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to
The (I think I remember) University of Kentucky had HASP for VS1. Then
Nancy Melanos (?sp) put HASP shared spool under VS1. It was real HASP.

Metz, Seymour

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to
Nope, Attached Support Processor.


Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Fuerst [SMTP:djf...@LI.NET]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 12:28 PM
>
> as ASP
> (Automatic or Asynchronous depending on who you talked to Spooling
> program)
> was the predecessor to JES3.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kalinich, John

unread,
Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to
I once heard an IBMer refer to HASP as "Half an ASP" instead of the Houston
name.

> HASP (Houston Automatic Spooling Program) is the predecessor to JES2

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thomas Bird

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to
MFT only supported a fixed number of tasks in only one real address space
(hence the F). MVT supported a variable number of tasks in only one real
address space (hence the V). SVS supported a variable number of tasks in a
single virtual address space. MVS supported a variable number of tasks in
a multiple number of virtual address spaces.

PCP--->MFT--->MFT II
--->MVT--->SVS--->MVS

Regards,

T. Bird
President
TJB Ventures, Inc.
Voice: (707) 226-1100
Fax: (707) 226-1188
Email: tb...@tjbventures.com
Web: http://www.tjbventures.com

Thomas Bird

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to
MFT only supported a fixed number of tasks in only one real address space
(hence the F). MVT supported a variable number of tasks in only one real
address space (hence the V). VS1 supported a fixed number of tasks in only
one virtual address space. SVS supported a variable number of tasks in a

single virtual address space. MVS supported a variable number of tasks in
a multiple number of virtual address spaces.

OS/370 PCP--->OS360 MFT--->OS360 MFT II--->OS/VS VS1
--->OS/360
MVT--->OS/VS VS2 SVS--->OS/VS VS2 MVS

Metz, Seymour

unread,
Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to
However, the chronology is off; the MVT option was available for a long time
before MFT II; in fact, a good deal of MVT code found its way into MFT II
and even PCP.


Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Bird [SMTP:tb...@TJBVENTURES.COM]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 4:03 PM
> To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems
>

> MFT only supported a fixed number of tasks in only one real address space
> (hence the F). MVT supported a variable number of tasks in only one real

> address space (hence the V). SVS supported a variable number of tasks in


> a
> single virtual address space. MVS supported a variable number of tasks
> in
> a multiple number of virtual address spaces.
>

> PCP--->MFT--->MFT II
> --->MVT--->SVS--->MVS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Doug Fuerst

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to
That's a new one for me, no one I ever talked to ever referred to it as that.


At 14:42 28-02-00 -0500, you wrote:
>Nope, Attached Support Processor.


>
>
>Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>
>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: Doug Fuerst [SMTP:djf...@LI.NET]
>> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 12:28 PM
>>
>> as ASP
>> (Automatic or Asynchronous depending on who you talked to Spooling
>> program)
>> was the predecessor to JES3.
>

>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>send email to list...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO

Doug Fuerst

Thomas Bird

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
to
HASP=Houston Automatic Spooling Priority (Claim to fame is spooling and
stingy on cycles.)
ASP=Attached Support Processor (Claim to fame is driving more than one
processor from a single spool using CTCs and also scheduling I/O devices.)

Regards,

T. Bird
President
TJB Ventures, Inc.
Voice: (707) 226-1100
Fax: (707) 226-1188
Email: tb...@tjbventures.com
Web: http://www.tjbventures.com

|--------+----------------------------->
| | Edward Jaffe |
| | <edjaffe@PHOENIXSOF|
| | TWARE.COM> |
| | |
| | 02/28/00 11:12 AM |


| | Please respond to |
| | IBM Mainframe |
| | Discussion List |
| | |

|--------+----------------------------->
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| |
| To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU |
| cc: (bcc: Thomas J Bird/IDI) |


| Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems |

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------|

Doug Fuerst wrote:
>
> HASP (Houston Automatic Spooling Program) is the predecessor to JES2 as


ASP
> (Automatic or Asynchronous depending on who you talked to Spooling
program)

> was the predecessor to JES3. And yes you still find HASP references in
the
> JES2 code.
References? How about the fact that all of the JES2 messages still start
with HASP?
--
| Edward E. Jaffe | Voice: (310) 338-0400 x318 |
| Mgr., Research & Development | Fax: (310) 338-0801 |
| Phoenix Software International | edj...@phoenixsoftware.com |
| 5200 W. Century Blvd., Suite 800 | USS24J24 at IBMMAIL |
| Los Angeles, CA 90045 | http://www.phoenixsoftware.com |

Thomas Bird

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00
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HASP - Priority, priority, not Program.

ASP's goal was to drive several machines, each with their own OS image, off
one input work stream and sharing devices among them (tape drives, etc.).
This became "loosely coupled" when 370 came along as opposed to "tightly
coupled" with one OS image like 360/65.

Regards,

T. Bird
President
TJB Ventures, Inc.
Voice: (707) 226-1100
Fax: (707) 226-1188
Email: tb...@tjbventures.com
Web: http://www.tjbventures.com

|--------+------------------------------------>
| | "Kalinich, John" |
| | <kalinichj@ST-LOUIS-EXCH01|
| | .ARMY.MIL> |
| | |
| | 02/28/00 11:48 AM |


| | Please respond to IBM |
| | Mainframe Discussion List |
| | |
|--------+------------------------------------>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| |
| To: IBM-...@BAMA.UA.EDU |
| cc: (bcc: Thomas J Bird/IDI) |
| Subject: Re: Mainframe operating systems |
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------|

I once heard an IBMer refer to HASP as "Half an ASP" instead of the Houston
name.


> HASP (Houston Automatic Spooling Program) is the predecessor to JES2

Thomas Bird

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Feb 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/28/00