IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?

[Keith Gooding]

I have been asked if a z/OS software product is supported on IBM Zcloud.

As far as I can see Zcloud is just old-fashioned outsourcing where a z/os system runs in an LPAR on someone else’s computer, albeit with the ability to dynamically add computing resources for temporary workload spikes etc.

Am I missing something or is there ‘proper’ cloud technology, such provisioning of middleware using cloud provisioning like AWS etc.

Keith Gooding

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[Mark Jacobs]

AFAIK you're correct. $Previousjob moved our datacenter to ZCloud which was hosted and supported by IBM Global Services.

Mark Jacobs

Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email.

GPG Public Key - https://api.protonmail.ch/pks/lookup?op=get&search=markj...@protonmail.com

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐

On Thursday, May 27th, 2021 at 9:22 AM, Keith Gooding <0000034af3894af...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> wrote:

> I have been asked if a z/OS software product is supported on IBM Zcloud.
>
> As far as I can see Zcloud is just old-fashioned outsourcing where a z/os system runs in an LPAR on someone else’s computer, albeit with the ability to dynamically add computing resources for temporary workload spikes etc.
>
> Am I missing something or is there ‘proper’ cloud technology, such provisioning of middleware using cloud provisioning like AWS etc.
>
> Keith Gooding
>

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Bill Johnson]

All clouds are just outsourcing. Renamed cloud so people would think they are on the new tech. I was part of EDS outsourcing of GM back in the 80’s. Moving data processing from GM plants to EDS data centers.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

IMHO it depends.
First, it depends on what we understand as outsourcing.
1. I buy HW and SW and keep it in my datacenter. Oh, BTW: the
application software is mine, not delivered from outside.
2. Application is delivered, and there are many options how to maintain it.
3. I keep HW in leased DC.
4. I rent HW from DC owner.
5. I rent HW from DC owner and some services like cabling, servicing, etc.
6. DC owner takes care about switches and maybe other things.
...
etc.

Regarding Zcloud - I believe it depends on your expectations how deep
the outsourcing would be.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
(looking for new job)
Lodz, Poland



W dniu 27.05.2021 o 15:22, Keith Gooding pisze:

[Joel C. Ewing]

No, "cloud" and "outsourcing" are two distinct concepts.  While it is
very likely these days that all "outsourcing" would involve cloud-based
services, it is not true that "cloud-based" services must be "outsourced". 

A corporation can easily choose to run its own distributed, in-house
cloud services.   Any corporate data center that supports branch offices
with remote access over the Internet to corporate applications fits the
definition of cloud-based computing from the viewpoint of the branch
offices.  If the corporate data center is not outsourced, then neither
are the cloud-based services it provides to its branches.

    J.C. Ewing

On 5/27/21 9:03 AM, Bill Johnson wrote:
> All clouds are just outsourcing. Renamed cloud so people would think they are on the new tech. I was part of EDS outsourcing of GM back in the 80’s. Moving data processing from GM plants to EDS data centers.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, May 27, 2021, 9:26 AM, Mark Jacobs <00000224d287a4b...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> wrote:
>
> AFAIK you're correct. $Previousjob moved our datacenter to ZCloud which was hosted and supported by IBM Global Services.
>
> Mark Jacobs
>
> Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email.
>
> GPG Public Key - https://api.protonmail.ch/pks/lookup?op=get&search=markj...@protonmail.com
>
> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
>
> On Thursday, May 27th, 2021 at 9:22 AM, Keith Gooding <0000034af3894af...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> wrote:
>
>> I have been asked if a z/OS software product is supported on IBM Zcloud.
>>
>> As far as I can see Zcloud is just old-fashioned outsourcing where a z/os system runs in an LPAR on someone else’s computer, albeit with the ability to dynamically add computing resources for temporary workload spikes etc.
>>
>> Am I missing something or is there ‘proper’ cloud technology, such provisioning of middleware using cloud provisioning like AWS etc.
>>
>> Keith Gooding
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> ...


--
Joel C. Ewing

[Seymour J Metz]

"Congratulations, you've invented time sharing!"


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Joel C. Ewing [jce.e...@COX.NET]
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2021 10:29 AM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?

No, "cloud" and "outsourcing" are two distinct concepts. While it is
very likely these days that all "outsourcing" would involve cloud-based
services, it is not true that "cloud-based" services must be "outsourced".

A corporation can easily choose to run its own distributed, in-house
cloud services. Any corporate data center that supports branch offices
with remote access over the Internet to corporate applications fits the
definition of cloud-based computing from the viewpoint of the branch
offices. If the corporate data center is not outsourced, then neither
are the cloud-based services it provides to its branches.

J.C. Ewing

On 5/27/21 9:03 AM, Bill Johnson wrote:
> All clouds are just outsourcing. Renamed cloud so people would think they are on the new tech. I was part of EDS outsourcing of GM back in the 80’s. Moving data processing from GM plants to EDS data centers.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, May 27, 2021, 9:26 AM, Mark Jacobs <00000224d287a4b...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> wrote:
>
> AFAIK you're correct. $Previousjob moved our datacenter to ZCloud which was hosted and supported by IBM Global Services.
>
> Mark Jacobs
>
> Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email.
>

> GPG Public Key - https://secure-web.cisco.com/11Tb5NRriA73gnjPf_5-9YQYk-TOQZSw3d7Ac0bmbR59osbwi4m8H-DhG8yluhMuQYdI5VJI1QLsfUNM3cZUN2Hack8uMnzeJ_O8S4GbiZ8OsN86hKNu4j6dQI-7Kb9ioPcbzwksrgI2BVQBzeRy2CDgnZGrJL7ZhctpY72k1FTWZcbsXjr4VAqb8QQ08xbuhTnCevKy1MvBslmbuIfhiVL_N-1-YlXo44rWiDebxPBEICFG4-zYhL-g_b0haH36NH0sd1FngZDt9kcRWhhaqApiwYv7GRxhEou5p-oo8xtu5RY8--K5T3IXxiRaCZuiu_NbVGCGKiAyf88HMzAnUL5n1wqzv6VKDPZ1iz2hgEs4SQRdrPtC_boPP9HGm3RDCILAiGVUEh-PLwgxniEiy-y2wJeA8lh1yOQteHIeI8dh15CthMrrfOiQb1mwu4S7M/https%3A%2F%2Fapi.protonmail.ch%2Fpks%2Flookup%3Fop%3Dget%26search%3Dmarkjacobs%40protonmail.com

[Bill Johnson]

Semantics.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

[Bill Johnson]

At GM, circa 1983-84, we had plants all over the country that worked off of a mainframe in Warren, Ohio. (Packard Electric) After the transition to EDS, those same plants worked off the mainframe in Charlotte, NC. (They moved multiple GM divisions there) Early cloud processing, outsourced to EDS. Now, any time I perform a banking transaction, it gets processed wherever the JP Morgan mainframe is located. If I access my photos, they are retrieved from Apple or Amazon at one of their DC’s. The only difference is in 1984 you used a stationary PC or Terminal. Now you use a smaller PC called a laptop or phone.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Friday, May 28, 2021, 10:29 AM, Joel C. Ewing <jce.e...@COX.NET> wrote:

[Seymour J Metz]

Yes, and the difference between a trainee who shoots himself and a trainee who inspects his rifle before claiming that it is unloaded is only semantics, but the cadre at boot camp thought that the distinction was important.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


________________________________________

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of Bill Johnson <00000047540adef...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2021 10:57 AM

To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?

Semantics.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, May 28, 2021, 10:29 AM, Joel C. Ewing <jce.e...@COX.NET> wrote:

No, "cloud" and "outsourcing" are two distinct concepts. While it is
very likely these days that all "outsourcing" would involve cloud-based
services, it is not true that "cloud-based" services must be "outsourced".

A corporation can easily choose to run its own distributed, in-house
cloud services. Any corporate data center that supports branch offices
with remote access over the Internet to corporate applications fits the
definition of cloud-based computing from the viewpoint of the branch
offices. If the corporate data center is not outsourced, then neither
are the cloud-based services it provides to its branches.

J.C. Ewing

On 5/27/21 9:03 AM, Bill Johnson wrote:
> All clouds are just outsourcing. Renamed cloud so people would think they are on the new tech. I was part of EDS outsourcing of GM back in the 80’s. Moving data processing from GM plants to EDS data centers.
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, May 27, 2021, 9:26 AM, Mark Jacobs <00000224d287a4b...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> wrote:
>
> AFAIK you're correct. $Previousjob moved our datacenter to ZCloud which was hosted and supported by IBM Global Services.
>
> Mark Jacobs
>
> Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email.
>

> GPG Public Key - https://secure-web.cisco.com/1qAOMAZEgf7ZMHqcX3uzwELDLRR1G1qcwNB2BeZQnwHEDWQqxIrxIHxCtU6R2ku6Y-bjG2tGtYnLal7LD4jhYC8TQ1pKyUGwojhTrz4KOeSfBy5rZSFZI71fhNlruZZfXEf83wCwFiK_0z0Tjh8MRv55xkGvwP9TXbB08_aDcmx3lYJMX9Fx0vWlhhFzCI0yp4mJolK_3I5uSf6XFwbXZIZlRUPZlrGCOlrA6TVGg8mJHa1y8ydg7QxhVxEP70ln0fv1xIV4DUtX0G4YL_SfY4OGT_CNo-qBaVi6dNWztlzRitfXF2AuS4V14ANPd9Zwg671dD0pzRimnLbkWXWT8HJPC2YGgOvKl4MzQLB8la36rXE207CyNZSPaPMHtC_TmUfXKmBTATNaRzlHbrFzZMqYkG0zla1csJfAcgVSHkVtJ9bKSs8h6I18FJmP-OA3T/https%3A%2F%2Fapi.protonmail.ch%2Fpks%2Flookup%3Fop%3Dget%26search%3Dmarkjacobs%40protonmail.com

[Bill Johnson]

An unloaded versus loaded gun is quite a bit more than semantics.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

[Dave Jousma]

>No, "cloud" and "outsourcing" are two distinct concepts. While it is
>very likely these days that all "outsourcing" would involve cloud-based
>services, it is not true that "cloud-based" services must be "outsourced".

>A corporation can easily choose to run its own distributed, in-house
>cloud services. Any corporate data center that supports branch offices
>with remote access over the Internet to corporate applications fits the
>definition of cloud-based computing from the viewpoint of the branch
>offices. If the corporate data center is not outsourced, then neither
>are the cloud-based services it provides to its branches.

Definitely semantics. I keep telling non-mainframers here at work that mainframe has been a "cloud" for decades. Think about it, teams just deploy their apps and they run, no server provisioning, etc. Continuous availability, nah AWS has nothing on MF.

Today's "cloud" is infrastructure outsourcing, nothing less. Except that the new outsourcers (Amazon, and others), have gotten smarter. Easy to get in, costs an arm and a leg to get out. In distributed systems its a slow growth, server here, server there, before long you have 100's, 1000's of AWS instances all at the mercy of someone somewhere who knows.

I used to work for IBM in the 90's in their outsourcing business. Companies that outsourced to reduce capital asset requirements but still were actively using mainframe space, didnt seem to stay outsourced long. Any deviation from original contract to add services was a nightmare. My observation is that company's where MF was stablized, or a company in financial trouble were the ones that stayed.

All of this ebb's and flows over time, we'll see how this all shakes out.

[Bill Johnson]

Bingo. And GM eventually took back their outsourced (cloud) processing from EDS.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

[Bill Johnson]

I remember the GM/EDS marriage well. After I was forced to transition to EDS, whenever Packard Electric engineers wanted changes made to the IMS system, I had to perform analysis of the request and submit an RFQ (request for quotation) and EDS hierarchy pushed for more hours (they were billable) than it really should have taken. Packard engineering and other users requesting changes were none too happy with the marriage. EDS charged Packard around $75 an hour for my programming & analysis time. 

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, May 28, 2021, 11:50 AM, Dave Jousma <000001a0403c5dc...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> wrote:

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

00000047540adef...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU (Bill Johnson) writes:
> At GM, circa 1983-84, we had plants all over the country that worked
> off of a mainframe in Warren, Ohio. (Packard Electric) After the
> transition to EDS, those same plants worked off the mainframe in
> Charlotte, NC. (They moved multiple GM divisions there) Early cloud
> processing, outsourced to EDS. Now, any time I perform a banking
> transaction, it gets processed wherever the JP Morgan mainframe is
> located. If I access my photos, they are retrieved from Apple or
> Amazon at one of their DC’s. The only difference is in 1984 you used a
> stationary PC or Terminal. Now you use a smaller PC called a laptop or
> phone.

took two semester hr intro to fortran/computers and then within a year,
univ. hired me fulltime to be responsible for ibm mainframe
systems. Then before I graduate, I'm hired fulltime into a small group
in the Boeing CFO office to help with the formation of Boeing Computer
Services (consolidate all dataprocessing into independent business unit
to better moentize the investment, including offering services to
non-Boeing entities). I thought renton datacenter was possibly largest
in the world, couple hundred million in IBM 360s ... and 360/65s
arriving faster than they could be installed, boxes constantly staged in
the hallways around the machine room (747#3 was flying skies of seattle
getting FAA flt certification). There was disaster plan to replicate
renton datacenter up at the new 747 plant in Everett (aka another couple
hundred million; scenario where Mt. Rainier heats up and the resulting
mud slide takes up the renton datacenter). When I graduate, I join the
IBM Cambridge Science Center (rather than staying in the Boeing CFO
office).

In the late 60s and early 70s, there had been spin-offs of the science
center, offering online commercial computer services with (virtual
machine) CP67. During this period there was great deal of effort
expanding to 7x24 service ... including support for dark room unattended
offshift online availability. The other was special terminal CCWs. 360s
in this period were rented/leased with charges based on the system
"meter" which ran whenever the CPU(s) and any channels were running. The
special terminal CCWs were to allow the system meter to stop (when there
was no activity) ... but "instantly on" whenever characters started
arriving. Also, all processors and channels had to be completely idle
for 400ms for the "system meter" to come to a stop. The cloud
megadatacenter analogy is stop using power/cooling when idle, but
instantly on when needed, typical cloud megadatacenter will have over
500,000 server blades, each blade with something like ten times
processor power of max. decked out IBM mainframe ... with significant
use fluctuation between low & peak demand.

Trivia: at least in late 70s, well after IBM mainframes changed to being
sold instead of leased/rented, MVS still had a timer task that woke up
every 400ms (making sure that system meter would never come to a stop).

At least two of the 60s science center spinoffs had quickly moved up the
value stream into offering online services to the financial industry
... and had to demonstrate significant security ... making sure that
competitors using the same systems couldn't evesdrop/compromise each
other.

there were "portable" 2741 terminals from the 60s ... but they came in
two 40lb suitcases. less than decade later, in 1977 I get a CDI miniterm
... portable that was only a few lbs.

Wasn't just the 60s outside online commercial service bureaus, the
science center had to demonstrate significant security. Science center
had ported APL\360 to CP67/CMS for CMS\APL (having to rewrite
significant portions to change from 16kbyte real storage swapped
workspaces to multimegabyte virtual memory demand paged workspaces
... and adding API for system services, like file i/o ... enabling
real-world applications). CSC had enabled online access for staff,
students and professors from various boston/cambridge area univ ... but
then Armonk business planners started using CMS\APL remotely also
... and loaded the most valuable IBM business information on the system
(and we had to demonstrate tight security especially with the dialup
oline non-IBM users).

We must have done a good job ... a couple years later (after joining
science center), IBM got a new CSO (had come from gov. service at one
time head of presidential detail) and I was asked to run around with him
talking about computer security (while a little bit of physical security
rubs off on me).

then there are the gov. agencies that I didn't hear about until later
(this ref gone 404, but lives on at wayback machine)
http://web.archive.org/web/20090117083033/http://www.nsa.gov/research/selinux/list-archive/0409/8362.shtml

GM trivia .... 1990, I was working with RS/6000 workstations and got
asked to participate in the GM "C4" taskforce ... that was looking at
how to better compete with foreign automakers ... they were planning on
heavily leveraging IT ... and invited several vendors to send
representatives. They described how GM was on a 7-8yr product cycle
with two programs running in parallel offset 4yrs (so it would look like
something new was coming out more often). Foreign competition had cut
their product cycle to 4yrs in the first half of the 80s and were in the
process of cutting it in half again (18-24months to deliver brand new
product) ... much more agile and able to respond to changing buyer
habits and/or technology. Offline I would ask the POK mainframe people
how they could contribute since they had similarly long development
cycles.

Poster child/example was 'vet ... it had tight internal tolerances under
the "skin" ... and from initial design to rolling off the line, part
makers would have changed their product lines ... and there was cases
where they had to redesign in order to get the existing parts to fit.

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

[Alan Altmark]

On Fri, 28 May 2021 11:50:28 +0200, Radoslaw Skorupka <R.Sko...@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

>IMHO it depends.
>First, it depends on what we understand as outsourcing.
>1. I buy HW and SW and keep it in my datacenter. Oh, BTW: the
>application software is mine, not delivered from outside.
>2. Application is delivered, and there are many options how to maintain it.
>3. I keep HW in leased DC.
>4. I rent HW from DC owner.
>5. I rent HW from DC owner and some services like cabling, servicing, etc.
>6. DC owner takes care about switches and maybe other things.
>...
>etc.
>
>Regarding Zcloud - I believe it depends on your expectations how deep
>the outsourcing would be.

zCloud is IBM-owned and -managed hardware and software in an IBM DC using various software stacks (z/VM, Linux, z/OS, CICS, IMS, DB2, MQ, Websphere, etc.), with your application (if any) and data. You run in one or more LPARs, sharing the machines with other zCloud customers.

See the link to the data sheet at https://www.ibm.com/services/cloud/managed-infrastructure-as-a-service. You could view it as a form of outsourcing, yes.

Alan Altmark
IBM

Alan Altmark
IBM

[Scott Chapman]

I think one important distinction of cloud vs. outsourcing is the ephemeral nature of the resources in cloud computing. I.E. the ability to start from zero, provision compute and storage resources of some type (either manually or automatically in response to changing conditions) and then deprovision them similarly after using the resources for perhaps mere minutes or hours. The cost is determined by what you used for the duration you used it, typically billed to an interval of minutes or sometimes even seconds. And since it has on-ramp starting at zero infrastructure and zero cost, you can easily try out ideas at a cost of something you can put on a credit card. Infrastructure is charged in increments of pennies. And if it doesn't work out, you turn it off and your charges stop.*

Last I knew, and I would like to be proven wrong, zCloud didn't embody the idea of "I want to play with z/OS for a few hours, stand up a z/OS image with x CPU and y GB of disk and put it on my credit card".

*-Remember: in the cloud, you pay for what you forgot to turn off. And those pennies can add up shockingly fast in some cases!

Scott Chapman

[Colin Paice]

I remember about 20+ years ago there was "dial a vm" from IBM for
customers. By the time you had phoned up, given your credit card details
it had created a second level system for you to play with.

"We did it first on z"

Colin

On Sat, 29 May 2021 at 12:45, Scott Chapman <scott....@epstrategies.com>
wrote:

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

... note cloud operators have been claiming for over two decades that
they assemble their own blade servers at 1/3rd the cost of brand name
blades ... they had so radically reduced computer system costs that
power/cooling was becoming major expense item (prompting demands for
major improvements in processor power & cooling efficiency) large cloud
operator with dozen or more megadatacenters around the world, each with
half million or more blades, each blade with ten times the processing
power of max'ed out mainframe.

About the time the major server chip vendors started saying they were
shipping at least half their chips directly to cloud operators, IBM
sells off its server system business. This was approx era of z196
mainframe (80 processors & 50BIPS, 625MIPS/proc) @$30M ($600,000/BIPS)
... and E5-2600 blades rated at 500BIPS (ten times max z196) and IBM had
base list price for E5-2600 blade of $1815 ($3.60/BIPS, cloud assembling at
1/3rd would be $1.2/BIPS ... BIPS based on standard industry benchmark of
number of iterations/sec compared to 370/158-3 assumed to be 1MIP).

old news articles that with credit card ... could automagically spin-up
ondemand blade system for a few hrs ... as well as multiple blades or
even blade supercomputer (thousands of blades, processing power ranking
in the top50 supercomputers in the world, hundreds of TIPS, aka hundreds
thousand BIPS, say equivalent of 5000 max configured z196 mainframes)
... special rates for prescheduled and/or off-peak use.

z900, 16 processors, 2.5BIPS (156MIPS/proc), Dec2000
z990, 32 processors, 9BIPS, (281MIPS/proc), 2003
z9, 54 processors, 18BIPS (333MIPS/proc), July2005
z10, 64 processors, 30BIPS (469MIPS/proc), Feb2008
z196, 80 processors, 50BIPS (625MIPS/proc), Jul2010
EC12, 101 processors, 75BIPS (743MIPS/proc), Aug2012
z13, 140 processors, 100BIPS (710MIPS/proc), Jan2015
z14, 170 processors, 150BIPS (862MIPS/proc), Aug2017
z15, 190 processors, 190BIPS* (1000MIPS/proc), Sep2019

* pubs say z15 1.25 times z14 (150BIPS)

current server blades are well into multiple TIPS.

[Timothy Sipples]

The basic business model predates electronic computing and extends at
least as far back as the 1920s when IBM started operating service bureaus
with tabulating equipment. See here for a 1937 photographic example:

https://www.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/asia/Vietnam_3404ph01.html

I assume Remington Rand eventually did something similar.

The proliferation of economical, fairly reliable Internet service has made
this basic concept more easily accessible and appealing.

- - - - - - - - - -
Timothy Sipples
I.T. Architect Executive
Digital Asset & Other Industry Solutions
IBM Z & LinuxONE
- - - - - - - - - -
E-Mail: sip...@sg.ibm.com

[Keith Gooding]

One of my reasons for asking about zCloud here was that I have been asked (at second- or third-hand) whether an ISV product is “supported” on zCloud, so there is clearly a case to answer. At first sight, if zCloud just means transferring LPARs to an IBM-owned machine, the answer would be ‘yes’. But there may be reasons why it would not be ‘supported’ - e.g. for licensing reasons, because IBM do not have the expertise to manage it, because IBM prefer to replace it with one of their owns products, etc.

Another reason is that I found a reference to “zcloud environments” in IMS v13 documentation in regards to what is now called “cloud provisioning” ie using z/OSMF and possibly Z Cloud Broker) to create and manage middleware environments “on demand” using templates etc provided by the middleware developers. I now think that this use of the term “zcloud” here (or terms such as “Z cloud”, Z/cloud” etc rather than “zCloud” ) may refer generically to cloud services on Z rather than the “Managed Extended Cloud Infrastructure as a Service(IaaS) for IBM Z (zCloud)” offering.

There is still a nagging doubt that some ISV products may be required to “play nicely” on zCloud, especially in environments where instead of transferring an LPAR to zCloud a new z/OS system is created just for development purposes so that modern development tools can be used. In that case there could be a requirement for middleware to co-operate in the automatic provisioning of test environments.

At the risk of being contacted by an IBM salesperson I have attempted to get in touch with a “zCloud” person for information.

Keith Gooding

Sent from my iPad

> On 29 May 2021, at 15:13, Colin Paice <colin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I remember about 20+ years ago there was "dial a vm" from IBM for

[Colin Paice]

I remember a customer talk on something like "are your systems Pets or
Cows?" If they are pets,they have names, and if they are ill - you
nurtured them. If they are just cows, they have a number, not a name, if
they are ill you shoot them.
The customer then said they moved their systems from pets to cows. They
create a new system on a sysres for all service on all products. Add it to
the sysplex. Take down the oldest system and shoot it,
This way they could do rapid deploy.

I looked at z/OSMF deploy for quickly deploying a new MQ queue manager on
z/OS. Good in theory, but you would not create an MQ very often. The
z/OSMF deploy made the easy bits easier (creating datasets) - and left the
hard bits to the end user (setting up RACF profiles, setting up SMS
profiles, doing backups of key resources, setting up monitoring of security
violations, integrating it with everything else.)
I think setting up CICS through z/OSMF was better.

Instead of calling things cloud it would be good if people called it

1. "where do you want to run your stuff"
2. "How quickly do you want to deploy it". Or the Deploy Wedge. Do you
want it to be fast - and no support - (the small end of the wedge) or do
you want all the bells, whistles,monitoring and backups - the fat end of
the wedge.

Colin

[Seymour J Metz]

I hope that you never go into farming. Livestock are expensive. Shooting a cow represents a significant loss. The only time a farmer kills a sick cow is when it's too expensive for the veterinarian to cure her. Otherwise you only kill your livestock when they are too old to be worth their keep or when they are of an appropriate age to sell for meat.

So, in your analogy, what is the cow? Is it an instance of an image, or is it the assets that you have deployued in that instance? The former costs little to deploy, the latter may be the heart of your business. You may shoot a horse with a broken leg, but do you really want to throw away a broken IMS or TPF application?

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Colin Paice [colin...@GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, June 1, 2021 7:01 AM

To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?

[Seymour J Metz]

Yes, like any other outsourcing and time-sharing contract, you need to define your requirements before committing to it, and that includes license issues. It's your responsibility to include what you need in the contract, but I would be very surprised if IBM was unable to deal with 3rd party software.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Keith Gooding [0000034af3894af...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU]
Sent: Tuesday, June 1, 2021 6:36 AM

To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?

[Bfishing]

There are also different zCloud offerings.
IBM Hyper Protect Virtual Servers is much different than the traditional
"your mess for less" hosting of your environment (whether it's on your own
or a shared box).

--

><((((º>`·.¸¸´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸>(((º>
.·´¯`·.><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>

<>< Go fishing ><>

[Art Gutowski]

I wouldn't be. Maybe no problem with licensing, but support is another matter. If it's not their product, how would they know? They don't license other ISV products internally, so all learning is in the field, or "handled" by sub-contracting out the work (as we often did in ITS), or by buying out the customer's IT staff (as they often did in Outsourcing). If that didn't work, or if it broke down, due to repeated downsizing and/or waves of voluntary departures, IBM then "dealt with it" by attempting to convert off of ISVs to their own "equivalents" (FSVO, equivalents). I lost count of how many times I asked, "the marketing rep told you it would do what, exactly?"

Perhaps things have improved in the 15 years since I departed, but perhaps not, given that ITS has since been disbanded, outsourcing has now been spun off, and some marketing reps are still prone to hyperbole.

Art Gutowski

On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 12:17:36 +0000, Seymour J Metz <sme...@GMU.EDU> wrote:

>Yes, like any other outsourcing and time-sharing contract, you need to define your requirements before committing to it, and that includes license issues. It's your responsibility to include what you need in the contract, but I would be very surprised if IBM was unable to deal with 3rd party software.
>
>--
>Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

[Ed Jaffe]

We have our products in IBM zCloud environments...

On 6/3/2021 11:58 AM, Art Gutowski wrote:
> I wouldn't be. Maybe no problem with licensing, but support is another matter. If it's not their product, how would they know? They don't license other ISV products internally, so all learning is in the field, or "handled" by sub-contracting out the work (as we often did in ITS), or by buying out the customer's IT staff (as they often did in Outsourcing). If that didn't work, or if it broke down, due to repeated downsizing and/or waves of voluntary departures, IBM then "dealt with it" by attempting to convert off of ISVs to their own "equivalents" (FSVO, equivalents). I lost count of how many times I asked, "the marketing rep told you it would do what, exactly?"
>
> Perhaps things have improved in the 15 years since I departed, but perhaps not, given that ITS has since been disbanded, outsourcing has now been spun off, and some marketing reps are still prone to hyperbole.
>
> Art Gutowski
>
>
> On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 12:17:36 +0000, Seymour J Metz <sme...@GMU.EDU> wrote:
>
>> Yes, like any other outsourcing and time-sharing contract, you need to define your requirements before committing to it, and that includes license issues. It's your responsibility to include what you need in the contract, but I would be very surprised if IBM was unable to deal with 3rd party software.
>>
--

Phoenix Software International
Edward E. Jaffe
831 Parkview Drive North
El Segundo, CA 90245
https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/


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[Seymour J Metz]

Is there nay management, policy or procedure continuity from ITS to zCloud? Can anybody from IBM comment on the contracts, if any, between IBM and 3rd party software vendors in support of zCloud?

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Art Gutowski [Arthur....@GM.COM]
Sent: Thursday, June 3, 2021 2:58 PM

To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IBM Zcloud - is it just outsourcing ?