Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Looks like lots of folks in marketing said thanks but no thanks
378 views
Skip to first unread message
Steve Beaver
May 23, 2017, 7:41:17 PM5/23/17
to
As we all know IBM has started the no more Remote work. Looks like lots of
folks in marketing said thanks but no thanks
Earlier this year, IBM's Chief Marketing Officer Michelle Peluso announced
that the U.S. marketing division's 2,600 employees would have to "co-locate"
or collaborate onsite from one of six cities. Those who worked primarily
from home would have to move to one of the cities or quit IBM.
For decades, IBM embraced remote work. Eight years ago, 40 percent of IBM
workers worldwide telecommuted. As a result, it saved about $100 million a
year in the U.S. and had reduced office space by 78 million square feet.
IBM remote workers who choose to resign rather than move to one of the six
cities will be paid severance, according to an IBM internal document, of one
month's base salary, the standard at IBM. Peluso says she plans to recruit
replacements for those employees from the six co-located locations-not
abroad. "If what I were trying to do was reduce headcount," she says, "there
are much simpler and easier ways to do that, which would be less disruptive
for everyone, myself included."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to list...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
folks in marketing said thanks but no thanks
Earlier this year, IBM's Chief Marketing Officer Michelle Peluso announced
that the U.S. marketing division's 2,600 employees would have to "co-locate"
or collaborate onsite from one of six cities. Those who worked primarily
from home would have to move to one of the cities or quit IBM.
For decades, IBM embraced remote work. Eight years ago, 40 percent of IBM
workers worldwide telecommuted. As a result, it saved about $100 million a
year in the U.S. and had reduced office space by 78 million square feet.
IBM remote workers who choose to resign rather than move to one of the six
cities will be paid severance, according to an IBM internal document, of one
month's base salary, the standard at IBM. Peluso says she plans to recruit
replacements for those employees from the six co-located locations-not
abroad. "If what I were trying to do was reduce headcount," she says, "there
are much simpler and easier ways to do that, which would be less disruptive
for everyone, myself included."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to list...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Doug Fuerst
May 23, 2017, 7:58:54 PM5/23/17
to
I wonder if or when they will give this one and Ginny Rometty their
walking papers. IBM has been faltering for years. Maybe a change in the
senior ranks would be in order.
Doug Fuerst
walking papers. IBM has been faltering for years. Maybe a change in the
senior ranks would be in order.
Doug Fuerst
Charles Mills
May 23, 2017, 7:59:34 PM5/23/17
to
Crazy. Just crazy.
Memo to IBM: Telecommuting is the future.
Charles
Memo to IBM: Telecommuting is the future.
Charles
Farley, Peter x23353
May 23, 2017, 8:16:33 PM5/23/17
to
Classic Type-A uptight managerial style. "If I can't see you then you must not be working, because I wouldn't be!"
Sheesh. When will they learn to judge people by what they accomplish rather than how often they are seen.
Then again, these are "marketing" (i.e., sales) employees. Given how much less IBM seems to be selling, maybe the housecleaning could be good for IBM.
My sympathies are still with the workers though.
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Steve Beaver
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 7:41 PM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sheesh. When will they learn to judge people by what they accomplish rather than how often they are seen.
Then again, these are "marketing" (i.e., sales) employees. Given how much less IBM seems to be selling, maybe the housecleaning could be good for IBM.
My sympathies are still with the workers though.
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Steve Beaver
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 7:41 PM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Looks like lots of folks in marketing said thanks but no thanks
As we all know IBM has started the no more Remote work. Looks like lots of
folks in marketing said thanks but no thanks
Earlier this year, IBM's Chief Marketing Officer Michelle Peluso announced
that the U.S. marketing division's 2,600 employees would have to "co-locate"
or collaborate onsite from one of six cities. Those who worked primarily
from home would have to move to one of the cities or quit IBM.
For decades, IBM embraced remote work. Eight years ago, 40 percent of IBM
workers worldwide telecommuted. As a result, it saved about $100 million a
year in the U.S. and had reduced office space by 78 million square feet.
IBM remote workers who choose to resign rather than move to one of the six
cities will be paid severance, according to an IBM internal document, of one
month's base salary, the standard at IBM. Peluso says she plans to recruit
replacements for those employees from the six co-located locations-not
abroad. "If what I were trying to do was reduce headcount," she says, "there
are much simpler and easier ways to do that, which would be less disruptive
for everyone, myself included."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system.
As we all know IBM has started the no more Remote work. Looks like lots of
folks in marketing said thanks but no thanks
Earlier this year, IBM's Chief Marketing Officer Michelle Peluso announced
that the U.S. marketing division's 2,600 employees would have to "co-locate"
or collaborate onsite from one of six cities. Those who worked primarily
from home would have to move to one of the cities or quit IBM.
For decades, IBM embraced remote work. Eight years ago, 40 percent of IBM
workers worldwide telecommuted. As a result, it saved about $100 million a
year in the U.S. and had reduced office space by 78 million square feet.
IBM remote workers who choose to resign rather than move to one of the six
cities will be paid severance, according to an IBM internal document, of one
month's base salary, the standard at IBM. Peluso says she plans to recruit
replacements for those employees from the six co-located locations-not
abroad. "If what I were trying to do was reduce headcount," she says, "there
are much simpler and easier ways to do that, which would be less disruptive
for everyone, myself included."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Beaver
May 23, 2017, 8:33:21 PM5/23/17
to
Every organization in the world needs a good house-cleaning and god knows
the Federal Government needs a major cleaning. However in the scheme of
things 2,600 people are not many out of 380,000. And probably most of them
are going to IBM's retired payroll.
As Peter said they may not be selling much, however the patent royalties are
astronomiocal
Steve
the Federal Government needs a major cleaning. However in the scheme of
things 2,600 people are not many out of 380,000. And probably most of them
are going to IBM's retired payroll.
As Peter said they may not be selling much, however the patent royalties are
astronomiocal
Steve
Paul Gilmartin
May 23, 2017, 8:51:20 PM5/23/17
to
On Tue, 23 May 2017 18:41:00 -0500, Steve Beaver wrote:
>As we all know IBM has started the no more Remote work. Looks like lots of
>folks in marketing said thanks but no thanks
>
"Lots"? I see no numbers. Citation needed?
>As we all know IBM has started the no more Remote work. Looks like lots of
>folks in marketing said thanks but no thanks
>
>Earlier this year, IBM's Chief Marketing Officer Michelle Peluso announced
>that the U.S. marketing division's 2,600 employees would have to "co-locate"
>or collaborate onsite from one of six cities. Those who worked primarily
>from home would have to move to one of the cities or quit IBM.
>
>For decades, IBM embraced remote work. Eight years ago, 40 percent of IBM
>workers worldwide telecommuted. As a result, it saved about $100 million a
>year in the U.S. and had reduced office space by 78 million square feet.
>
>IBM remote workers who choose to resign rather than move to one of the six
>cities will be paid severance, according to an IBM internal document, of one
>month's base salary, the standard at IBM. Peluso says she plans to recruit
>replacements for those employees from the six co-located locations-not
>abroad. "If what I were trying to do was reduce headcount," she says, "there
>are much simpler and easier ways to do that, which would be less disruptive
>for everyone, myself included."
Steve Beaver
May 23, 2017, 8:53:42 PM5/23/17
to
IBM will never say for a while
Sent from my iPhone
Sorry for any grammar problems
Sent from my iPhone
Sorry for any grammar problems
Lizette Koehler
May 23, 2017, 8:58:42 PM5/23/17
to
So if there are six co-located locations, how is one Manager supposed to over see everyone in their chair if the manager is in City A but employee is in City B.
Does not make sense. Especially if they saved 100 Million by having these workers remote to start with.
Crazy
Lizette
-----Original Message-----
>From: Doug Fuerst <do...@BKASSOCIATES.NET>
>Sent: May 23, 2017 4:58 PM
>To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Does not make sense. Especially if they saved 100 Million by having these workers remote to start with.
Crazy
Lizette
-----Original Message-----
>From: Doug Fuerst <do...@BKASSOCIATES.NET>
>Sent: May 23, 2017 4:58 PM
>To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>Subject: Re: Looks like lots of folks in marketing said thanks but no thanks
>
> I wonder if or when they will give this one and Ginny Rometty their
>walking papers. IBM has been faltering for years. Maybe a change in the
>senior ranks would be in order.
>
>Doug Fuerst
>
>
>
>------ Original Message ------
>From: "Steve Beaver" <st...@stevebeaver.com>
>To: IBM-...@listserv.ua.edu
>Sent: 23-May-17 7:41:00 PM
>
> I wonder if or when they will give this one and Ginny Rometty their
>walking papers. IBM has been faltering for years. Maybe a change in the
>senior ranks would be in order.
>
>Doug Fuerst
>
>
>
>------ Original Message ------
>From: "Steve Beaver" <st...@stevebeaver.com>
>To: IBM-...@listserv.ua.edu
>Sent: 23-May-17 7:41:00 PM
>Subject: Looks like lots of folks in marketing said thanks but no thanks
>
>>As we all know IBM has started the no more Remote work. Looks like lots
>>of
>>folks in marketing said thanks but no thanks
>>
>
>>As we all know IBM has started the no more Remote work. Looks like lots
>>of
>>folks in marketing said thanks but no thanks
>>
Edward Finnell
May 23, 2017, 9:44:50 PM5/23/17
to
RFID's? Who was it Watson, Sr. wanted to have everyone tattooed for census
purposes? Was not well received.
In a message dated 5/23/2017 7:58:40 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
purposes? Was not well received.
In a message dated 5/23/2017 7:58:40 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
star...@MINDSPRING.COM writes:
So if there are six co-located locations, how is one Manager supposed to
over see everyone in their chair if the manager is in City A but employee
is in City B.
So if there are six co-located locations, how is one Manager supposed to
over see everyone in their chair if the manager is in City A but employee
is in City B.
Edward Gould
May 24, 2017, 12:18:38 AM5/24/17
to
> On May 23, 2017, at 6:41 PM, Steve Beaver <st...@STEVEBEAVER.COM> wrote:
>
> As we all know IBM has started the no more Remote work. Looks like lots of
> folks in marketing said thanks but no thanks
>
> Earlier this year, IBM's Chief Marketing Officer Michelle Peluso announced
> that the U.S. marketing division's 2,600 employees would have to "co-locate"
> or collaborate onsite from one of six cities. Those who worked primarily
> from home would have to move to one of the cities or quit IBM.
>
> For decades, IBM embraced remote work. Eight years ago, 40 percent of IBM
> workers worldwide telecommuted. As a result, it saved about $100 million a
> year in the U.S. and had reduced office space by 78 million square feet.
>
> IBM remote workers who choose to resign rather than move to one of the six
> cities will be paid severance, according to an IBM internal document, of one
> month's base salary, the standard at IBM. Peluso says she plans to recruit
> replacements for those employees from the six co-located locations-not
> abroad. "If what I were trying to do was reduce headcount," she says, "there
> are much simpler and easier ways to do that, which would be less disruptive
> for everyone, myself included.”
>
> As we all know IBM has started the no more Remote work. Looks like lots of
> folks in marketing said thanks but no thanks
>
> Earlier this year, IBM's Chief Marketing Officer Michelle Peluso announced
> that the U.S. marketing division's 2,600 employees would have to "co-locate"
> or collaborate onsite from one of six cities. Those who worked primarily
> from home would have to move to one of the cities or quit IBM.
>
> For decades, IBM embraced remote work. Eight years ago, 40 percent of IBM
> workers worldwide telecommuted. As a result, it saved about $100 million a
> year in the U.S. and had reduced office space by 78 million square feet.
>
> IBM remote workers who choose to resign rather than move to one of the six
> cities will be paid severance, according to an IBM internal document, of one
> month's base salary, the standard at IBM. Peluso says she plans to recruit
> replacements for those employees from the six co-located locations-not
> abroad. "If what I were trying to do was reduce headcount," she says, "there
> are much simpler and easier ways to do that, which would be less disruptive
> Can’t speak for other cities but in Chicago, There is/was a building that housed mostly IBMers for at least 30 years that I remember. The address was 1 IBM Plaza.
It used to house IBM education/marketing and a data center (we IPLed the first version of MVS there late one night (or was it morning?)) I spent many weeks there in various IBM classes over the years.
A couple of years ago I went past the place and it looked deserted (and somewhat dirty).
I had a few friends that worked for IBM over the years and they moved to the East Coast and West Coast.
I keep in touch a little with one now EX IBMer he was in G-burg and then the west coast.
I was extremely disappointed with IBM over the last say 20+ years. What was once excellent Marketing people were reduced to call centers and it showed to the customer.
We were an excellent customer of IBM and ordered the latest equipment available and really got over the top engineering support and marketing support. IBM once in a while would bring customers through our data center to show off any new equipment.
When we had major issues with IBM equipment the place was overrun with IBM types helping out and making good suggestions. One time our brand new 168MP wasn’t quite dead on delivery but close to. IBM showed that they supported the customer when a jet flew in from the east coast with about 20 IBM types. They problem was found a part was supplied that fixed the issue (too long of a tri lead wire going into the High speed buffer). Talk about unreproducible S0C4’s.
Then IBM started to go down little by little not as good support as they used to have. People seemed to be leaving IBM faster than they could hire. They tried to sell me a remote education class and I balked a little. I finally got them to not charge the company if I found it was unsatisfactory. The second day of the class I walked out and went to the person in charge and told them to refund the money and to make sure they specified in the education catalog if it was remotely taught. I stayed away from all remotely taught classes.
Then somewhere around 1995 I found I needed to ask a person who has had experience with encryption and key handling. (this was a 1-800 number) I was told I was going to have to pay IBM to get an answer about their product, I answered back I guess you don’t want to sell new hardware anymore and I hung up)
Then a few years laterI had some questions about hardware and was told the same thing.
I only called IBM when we had a service contract. Even the IBM software (parts of it anyway) broke every IBM rules there was. That was enough for me.
Good bye IBM it was nice for a while, not so much anymore.
Ed
Nightwatch RenBand
May 24, 2017, 11:05:25 AM5/24/17
to
The problem with working remote has always been one of management.
Basically, managers, still after all these years, do not know how to manage
and evaluate actual employee performance, and that applies to workers
sitting right next to the manager as well as remote workers. And in this
technical age, how many managers even know what their workers DO? One of
my rules is: If you cannot DO your subordinates job, you cannot manage
them.
The cost savings to the company as well as to traffic reduction,
commuting time elimination, pollution, improvement in quality of life etc
has been proven repeatedly.
Basically, managers, still after all these years, do not know how to manage
and evaluate actual employee performance, and that applies to workers
sitting right next to the manager as well as remote workers. And in this
technical age, how many managers even know what their workers DO? One of
my rules is: If you cannot DO your subordinates job, you cannot manage
them.
The cost savings to the company as well as to traffic reduction,
commuting time elimination, pollution, improvement in quality of life etc
has been proven repeatedly.
Jesse 1 Robinson
May 24, 2017, 11:11:19 AM5/24/17
to
We are fortunate enough to still have a monthly sync-up meeting with IBM account folks. At the meeting last week, one person in the room flew into LA from Chicago, another from Boise. These were both one-day visits. Having such an enormous territory to cover seems wacko, but this is the current configuration before further consolidation. A real head scratcher.
.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robi...@sce.com
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Edward Finnell
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 6:44 PM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: Looks like lots of folks in marketing said thanks but no thanks
RFID's? Who was it Watson, Sr. wanted to have everyone tattooed for census purposes? Was not well received.
In a message dated 5/23/2017 7:58:40 P.M. Central Daylight Time, star...@MINDSPRING.COM writes:
So if there are six co-located locations, how is one Manager supposed to over see everyone in their chair if the manager is in City A but employee is in City B.
.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robi...@sce.com
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Edward Finnell
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 6:44 PM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: Looks like lots of folks in marketing said thanks but no thanks
RFID's? Who was it Watson, Sr. wanted to have everyone tattooed for census purposes? Was not well received.
In a message dated 5/23/2017 7:58:40 P.M. Central Daylight Time, star...@MINDSPRING.COM writes:
So if there are six co-located locations, how is one Manager supposed to over see everyone in their chair if the manager is in City A but employee is in City B.
Charles Mills
May 24, 2017, 12:03:52 PM5/24/17
to
Amen all around.
Charles
Charles
Karl S Huf
May 24, 2017, 12:09:29 PM5/24/17
to
The building is still there at 330 N Wabash. I remember attending many,
many classes there. If you were lucky/unlucky enough to be in a
classroom on the east side of the building it was very difficult to
concentrate as the views of the Wrigley Building, Tribune Tower, and the
locks opening and closing between the Chicago River and Lake Michigan
were quite distracting. A lot of us remember it most for the intense
winds that were there - so intense that the building's plaza had a
series of stanchions and ropes to provide people a way to anchor
themselves and literally pull themselves to/from the building's
entrance. The building is classified as a landmark and was designed by
Ludwig Mies Van Der Rohe; most students of architecture consider it a
masterpiece. IBM sold it a little over 20 years ago and moved out a
little over 10 years ago (now in the Hyatt Center on Wacker & Monroe).
The building is now mixed use with a boutique hotel (Langham) taking up
the lower floors and the AMA the rest.
________________________________________________________________________
_______
Karl S Huf | Senior Vice President | World Wide Technology
50 S LaSalle St, LQ-18, Chicago, IL 60603 | phone (312)630-6287 |
k...@ntrs.com
Please visit northerntrust.com
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication is confidential, may be
privileged and is meant only for the intended recipient. If you are not
the intended recipient, please notify the sender ASAP and delete this
message from your system. NTAC:3NS-20
P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
many classes there. If you were lucky/unlucky enough to be in a
classroom on the east side of the building it was very difficult to
concentrate as the views of the Wrigley Building, Tribune Tower, and the
locks opening and closing between the Chicago River and Lake Michigan
were quite distracting. A lot of us remember it most for the intense
winds that were there - so intense that the building's plaza had a
series of stanchions and ropes to provide people a way to anchor
themselves and literally pull themselves to/from the building's
entrance. The building is classified as a landmark and was designed by
Ludwig Mies Van Der Rohe; most students of architecture consider it a
masterpiece. IBM sold it a little over 20 years ago and moved out a
little over 10 years ago (now in the Hyatt Center on Wacker & Monroe).
The building is now mixed use with a boutique hotel (Langham) taking up
the lower floors and the AMA the rest.
________________________________________________________________________
_______
Karl S Huf | Senior Vice President | World Wide Technology
50 S LaSalle St, LQ-18, Chicago, IL 60603 | phone (312)630-6287 |
k...@ntrs.com
Please visit northerntrust.com
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication is confidential, may be
privileged and is meant only for the intended recipient. If you are not
the intended recipient, please notify the sender ASAP and delete this
message from your system. NTAC:3NS-20
P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
Jesse 1 Robinson
May 24, 2017, 12:17:22 PM5/24/17
to
I spend a long weekend in that building every six months because Smith Bucklin--the company that manages SHARE conferences--moved there from the old Allstate building a few years ago. We go there for conference planning. The building is in good shape and fully occupied as far as I can tell.
I remember the wind well from my first trip there for a JES2 class in a distant early spring. From the window, a gorgeous sunny day with clear blue sky. Then step outside. Yikes.
.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robi...@sce.com
I remember the wind well from my first trip there for a JES2 class in a distant early spring. From the window, a gorgeous sunny day with clear blue sky. Then step outside. Yikes.
.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robi...@sce.com
Out The Darkness Just for All My Haters
May 24, 2017, 1:00:02 PM5/24/17
to
My Opinion, not sure if it matters is I would love to have a job. Period.
Anywhere.
I ended up on IBM for help because I have no where else to turn and things
seem to just be getting worse.
For what it matters. I am not some soft wear programming genius. I use what
very, very, limited internet I am allowed through a network that honestly
has created more problems then answers.
It is not fair to be left in the dark and have all these actions happen
that direcrly involve me and my children and never get an answer, or at
least a solid one on how I can be included to at least be able to give a
statement or be involved in things being held against me.
I am on no pitty party please believe that but if anyone could put there
selves in my shoes even for a day with all the fix this, account for that,
when it actuallity I have no clue what I am needed for or why.
So I search for answers to the mail, various contracts I come across
someone else at home has clear knowledge of just not me.
Its very hard not to feel targeted. Especially when I do reach out in the
community I am always shut down.
What am I left to do? Really? Just let whats coming happen and for the
simple reason I tried to stand up against the corrupt ones.
Tanya Pike
Anywhere.
I ended up on IBM for help because I have no where else to turn and things
seem to just be getting worse.
For what it matters. I am not some soft wear programming genius. I use what
very, very, limited internet I am allowed through a network that honestly
has created more problems then answers.
It is not fair to be left in the dark and have all these actions happen
that direcrly involve me and my children and never get an answer, or at
least a solid one on how I can be included to at least be able to give a
statement or be involved in things being held against me.
I am on no pitty party please believe that but if anyone could put there
selves in my shoes even for a day with all the fix this, account for that,
when it actuallity I have no clue what I am needed for or why.
So I search for answers to the mail, various contracts I come across
someone else at home has clear knowledge of just not me.
Its very hard not to feel targeted. Especially when I do reach out in the
community I am always shut down.
What am I left to do? Really? Just let whats coming happen and for the
simple reason I tried to stand up against the corrupt ones.
Tanya Pike
Jerry Whitteridge
May 24, 2017, 1:20:07 PM5/24/17
to
We have the same with folks flying in from WA and TX on a regular basis - but also confuse them as half of us are in Pleasanton and half in Phoenix. And since I moved to Phoenix they are conflicted as to which Manager to grace with their physical presence <grin> (My peer stayed back in CA).
Jerry Whitteridge
Manager Mainframe Systems & Storage
Albertsons - Safeway Inc.
623 869 5523
Corporate Tieline - 85523
If you feel in control
you just aren't going fast enough.
________________________________
Warning: All e-mail sent to this address will be received by the corporate e-mail system, and is subject to archival and review by someone other than the recipient. This e-mail may contain proprietary information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient(s), you are notified that you have received this message in error and that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately.
________________________________
Jerry Whitteridge
Manager Mainframe Systems & Storage
Albertsons - Safeway Inc.
623 869 5523
Corporate Tieline - 85523
If you feel in control
you just aren't going fast enough.
Warning: All e-mail sent to this address will be received by the corporate e-mail system, and is subject to archival and review by someone other than the recipient. This e-mail may contain proprietary information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient(s), you are notified that you have received this message in error and that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately.
________________________________
itzd...@gmail.com
May 24, 2017, 2:28:44 PM5/24/17
to
Who really knows why IBM has cancelled its work@home policy? I expect it is all about reducing labor costs as this will inspire many to see employment elsewhere.
I remain bullish about the mainframe as I value its security and reduced cost of operations when we exploit the IFLs and run z/OS.
I know I'm in a shrinking minority.
I remain bullish about the mainframe as I value its security and reduced cost of operations when we exploit the IFLs and run z/OS.
I know I'm in a shrinking minority.
Radoslaw Skorupka
May 25, 2017, 2:57:59 AM5/25/17
to
Well, it is not my company, so let's leave the decision to the owners and managers they hired.
However if it was my company I would demand to be present in the office. Some well justified exceptions apply, but mostly temporarily, and everytime final decision would belong to managers, not employees.
Reasons?
1. Meetings at the coffee point (and other places) is very big opportunity to exchange ideas, thoughts, opinions.
2. It is much easier to see and control how the emploee spends a time - is he really busy as declared? No timesheet replace it.
3. Some people do work more effectively when they have no external "disturbants" (a dog, neighbour, postman, favourite comedy on TV...)
BTW: most of my co-workers claim they absolutely prefer to work in the office, with the team.
BTW2: multi-site office is still better than home working, We do have good video-chat systems for in conference rooms, except personal a/v equipment in every PC.
My 0,02€
--
R.Skorupka
Lodz, Poland
However if it was my company I would demand to be present in the office. Some well justified exceptions apply, but mostly temporarily, and everytime final decision would belong to managers, not employees.
Reasons?
1. Meetings at the coffee point (and other places) is very big opportunity to exchange ideas, thoughts, opinions.
2. It is much easier to see and control how the emploee spends a time - is he really busy as declared? No timesheet replace it.
3. Some people do work more effectively when they have no external "disturbants" (a dog, neighbour, postman, favourite comedy on TV...)
BTW: most of my co-workers claim they absolutely prefer to work in the office, with the team.
BTW2: multi-site office is still better than home working, We do have good video-chat systems for in conference rooms, except personal a/v equipment in every PC.
My 0,02€
--
R.Skorupka
Lodz, Poland
Steve Smith
May 25, 2017, 9:44:35 AM5/25/17
to
1. Purely imaginary. Besides being too random to be useful, those
"meetings" are about family, dogs, and favourite comedies. Business
interaction is often better facilitated with electronic communication (see
your #3).
2. Purely imaginary. You cannot "see" much of anything. A manager's job
is to get results, not to baby-sit (monitor) their team. If the manager
hires people who need to be constantly supervised, well then, that's on the
manager.
3. Agreed. Every office I've worked in was apparently designed to prevent
me from concentrating on anything. I'm far, far more productive in my
quiet, distraction-free home office.
I also liked going to the office (mostly), and seeing everyone. But I was
able to actually work maybe 50% of the time there.
sas
--
sas
"meetings" are about family, dogs, and favourite comedies. Business
interaction is often better facilitated with electronic communication (see
your #3).
2. Purely imaginary. You cannot "see" much of anything. A manager's job
is to get results, not to baby-sit (monitor) their team. If the manager
hires people who need to be constantly supervised, well then, that's on the
manager.
3. Agreed. Every office I've worked in was apparently designed to prevent
me from concentrating on anything. I'm far, far more productive in my
quiet, distraction-free home office.
I also liked going to the office (mostly), and seeing everyone. But I was
able to actually work maybe 50% of the time there.
sas
sas
Sasso, Leonard
May 25, 2017, 9:47:33 AM5/25/17
to
1 and 2 - Totally agree
3 - 75%
Thank You,
Len Sasso
System Administrator
RDC - 327 Columbia TPKE, Rensselaer NY 12144-4400
t: +1.518.257.4209 | m: +1.518.894.0879
len....@csra.com | www.csra.com Follow us on Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn
CSRA
Think Next. Now.
This electronic message transmission contains information from CSRA that may be attorney-client privileged, proprietary or confidential. The information in this message is intended only for use by the individual(s) to whom it is addressed. If you believe you have received this message in error, please contact me immediately and be aware that any use, disclosure, copying or distribution of the contents of this message is strictly prohibited. NOTE: Regardless of content, this email shall not operate to bind CSRA to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of email for such purpose.
3 - 75%
Thank You,
Len Sasso
System Administrator
RDC - 327 Columbia TPKE, Rensselaer NY 12144-4400
t: +1.518.257.4209 | m: +1.518.894.0879
len....@csra.com | www.csra.com Follow us on Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn
CSRA
Think Next. Now.
Jesse 1 Robinson
May 25, 2017, 11:51:51 AM5/25/17
to
I don't want to undermine anyone's desire for independence, but I'm sympathetic to Radoslaw's sentiments. There is an advantage to regular proximity. I can't count the number of times I've overheard colleagues discussing an issue of that impinges on me. The problem with depending on any sort of overt communication--using whatever technology--is that you yourself have to know what to communicate. That is a one-sided perspective.
I've been on both ends of this issue: a manager type with distributed reports and a trench rat located in the hinterland. I would be reluctant to dictate a concentrated configuration, but I have experienced its benefits as well as the downside of dispersion.
.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robi...@sce.com
I've been on both ends of this issue: a manager type with distributed reports and a trench rat located in the hinterland. I would be reluctant to dictate a concentrated configuration, but I have experienced its benefits as well as the downside of dispersion.
.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robi...@sce.com
Burrell, Todd
May 25, 2017, 12:58:52 PM5/25/17
to
I've always said that if you think you need someone in the office so you can make sure they are working - then you hired the wrong person. Bad employees will goof off whether they are in the office or at home. And I get a LOT more done from home than I ever do in the office because there are no distractions at home like at the office.
And the old "water cooler" argument about learning a lot from discussions in the office has a little merit, but not much. Most of the times these discussions quickly wonder off into personal discussions.
Todd Burrell | Sr. Mainframe Systems Administrator
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 9:44 AM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
This email transmission and any accompanying attachments may contain CSX privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the intended addressee. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or action taken in reliance on the contents of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please immediately delete it and notify sender at the above CSX email address. Sender and CSX accept no liability for any damage caused directly or indirectly by receipt of this email.
And the old "water cooler" argument about learning a lot from discussions in the office has a little merit, but not much. Most of the times these discussions quickly wonder off into personal discussions.
Todd Burrell | Sr. Mainframe Systems Administrator
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 9:44 AM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
zMan
May 25, 2017, 1:42:23 PM5/25/17
to
I hear the "Oh, I don't think I could work at home" all the time. I just
smile and say "It's not for everyone", but what I hear them saying is
"Damn, I wish my job let me do that!"
Mind you, after 15 years, I'm pretty used to it.
On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 12:58 PM, Burrell, Todd <Todd_B...@csx.com>
wrote:
--
zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"
smile and say "It's not for everyone", but what I hear them saying is
"Damn, I wish my job let me do that!"
Mind you, after 15 years, I'm pretty used to it.
On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 12:58 PM, Burrell, Todd <Todd_B...@csx.com>
wrote:
zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"
Edward Gould
May 25, 2017, 2:02:20 PM5/25/17
to
> On May 25, 2017, at 11:58 AM, Burrell, Todd <Todd_B...@CSX.COM> wrote:
> ————————————SNIP-----------------------------------------
Many times after shooting a bug we shared the issue via discussions albeit at someones desk or in the general office.
It kept everyone up to date with others and so it decreased discovery time. I can’t tell you the number of duplicate issues showed up. It saved everyone time by discussing it aloud.
The other thing that was interesting, we all knew when there was an issue with MVS as we would ask each other over the wall if anyone else is having the same problem.
We would walk out the door and down the hallway where the computer was and we took over from the operators in an attempt to figure out what the problem was.
One of us looked at any allocation issues and try and see if he was able to alleviate the issue.
One of us looked at the console history to see if anything was happening there.
One of (usually the most inexperienced) would look at issues with disk drives and the MSS.
We all used a loud voice as the computer room was not silent. We talked out issues over the noise.
We generally came to the same conclusion and walked back to the console. At that point the person manning the console was in charge and he listened as we gave our opinions.
He decided what to do force cancel a job or whatever. He also was the person to get set up for a standalone incase it was needed.
The group always had input during these times. One person made the decision and we all went with it.
Ed
> ————————————SNIP-----------------------------------------
> And the old "water cooler" argument about learning a lot from discussions in the office has a little merit, but not much. Most of the times these discussions quickly wonder off into personal discussions.
>
> Todd Burrell | Sr. Mainframe Systems Administrator
One place where I worked it was a walled off area from the computer room.
>
> Todd Burrell | Sr. Mainframe Systems Administrator
Many times after shooting a bug we shared the issue via discussions albeit at someones desk or in the general office.
It kept everyone up to date with others and so it decreased discovery time. I can’t tell you the number of duplicate issues showed up. It saved everyone time by discussing it aloud.
The other thing that was interesting, we all knew when there was an issue with MVS as we would ask each other over the wall if anyone else is having the same problem.
We would walk out the door and down the hallway where the computer was and we took over from the operators in an attempt to figure out what the problem was.
One of us looked at any allocation issues and try and see if he was able to alleviate the issue.
One of us looked at the console history to see if anything was happening there.
One of (usually the most inexperienced) would look at issues with disk drives and the MSS.
We all used a loud voice as the computer room was not silent. We talked out issues over the noise.
We generally came to the same conclusion and walked back to the console. At that point the person manning the console was in charge and he listened as we gave our opinions.
He decided what to do force cancel a job or whatever. He also was the person to get set up for a standalone incase it was needed.
The group always had input during these times. One person made the decision and we all went with it.
Ed
Tom Brennan
May 25, 2017, 2:26:41 PM5/25/17
to
I've been working mostly at home for 4 years now, and I have to say
there are a LOT of distractions (ZZzzzz). Of course I wouldn't want to
trade it for an office again, but I can certainly see some of the
downsides of having people outside of any sphere of control for their
alleged 8 hours a day.
And Skip's remark is so important: I worked in the cubicle across from
him for probably 15 years, and I couldn't count all the times I'd be
talking to someone about a problem or plans, and he would overhear and
chime in with new ideas or a solution. You don't get that remotely
except by the rare chance everyone is on the phone at the same time.
Burrell, Todd wrote:
> I've always said that if you think you need someone in the office so you can make sure they are working - then you hired the wrong person. Bad employees will goof off whether they are in the office or at home. And I get a LOT more done from home than I ever do in the office because there are no distractions at home like at the office.
>
> And the old "water cooler" argument about learning a lot from discussions in the office has a little merit, but not much. Most of the times these discussions quickly wonder off into personal discussions.
>
there are a LOT of distractions (ZZzzzz). Of course I wouldn't want to
trade it for an office again, but I can certainly see some of the
downsides of having people outside of any sphere of control for their
alleged 8 hours a day.
And Skip's remark is so important: I worked in the cubicle across from
him for probably 15 years, and I couldn't count all the times I'd be
talking to someone about a problem or plans, and he would overhear and
chime in with new ideas or a solution. You don't get that remotely
except by the rare chance everyone is on the phone at the same time.
Burrell, Todd wrote:
> I've always said that if you think you need someone in the office so you can make sure they are working - then you hired the wrong person. Bad employees will goof off whether they are in the office or at home. And I get a LOT more done from home than I ever do in the office because there are no distractions at home like at the office.
>
> And the old "water cooler" argument about learning a lot from discussions in the office has a little merit, but not much. Most of the times these discussions quickly wonder off into personal discussions.
>
Doug Fuerst
May 25, 2017, 2:34:13 PM5/25/17
to
Amen to all of this. It is far more productive to work from home. And I
have never had an issue in collaboration with my colleagues; we have
managed to collaborate no matter the distances involved between us.
And from the employer standpoint, most of us these days are older, and
less prone to up and move wherever for a 6 or 12 month project. We are
older, have ties to our communities, and are just not as likely to move
around as at least I was in the past.
Doug
do...@bkassociates.net
have never had an issue in collaboration with my colleagues; we have
managed to collaborate no matter the distances involved between us.
And from the employer standpoint, most of us these days are older, and
less prone to up and move wherever for a 6 or 12 month project. We are
older, have ties to our communities, and are just not as likely to move
around as at least I was in the past.
Doug
do...@bkassociates.net
Steve Smith
May 25, 2017, 3:47:35 PM5/25/17
to
Notwithstanding as adamant as I previously was, different jobs and tasks do
call for different levels of personal interaction. A symphony can hardly
be performed with everyone working remotely; conversely, it could hardly be
created by anyone not completely free of distraction and interaction.
So far as I can tell. I'm hardly qualified to listen to a symphony, much
less either of the above.
sas
call for different levels of personal interaction. A symphony can hardly
be performed with everyone working remotely; conversely, it could hardly be
created by anyone not completely free of distraction and interaction.
So far as I can tell. I'm hardly qualified to listen to a symphony, much
less either of the above.
sas
Gord Tomlin
May 25, 2017, 4:52:42 PM5/25/17
to
On 2017-05-25 12:58, Burrell, Todd wrote:
> I've always said that if you think you need someone in the office so you can make sure they are working - then you hired the wrong person. Bad employees will goof off whether they are in the office or at home. And I get a LOT more done from home than I ever do in the office because there are no distractions at home like at the office.
>
> And the old "water cooler" argument about learning a lot from discussions in the office has a little merit, but not much. Most of the times these discussions quickly wonder off into personal discussions.
Well put.
> I've always said that if you think you need someone in the office so you can make sure they are working - then you hired the wrong person. Bad employees will goof off whether they are in the office or at home. And I get a LOT more done from home than I ever do in the office because there are no distractions at home like at the office.
>
> And the old "water cooler" argument about learning a lot from discussions in the office has a little merit, but not much. Most of the times these discussions quickly wonder off into personal discussions.
To add to the above, the time spent traveling to/from the office (it
would be about 8 hours a week for me if I went to the office 5 days a
week) is time just thrown away.
It's 2017 now, and there are plenty of tools available that provide
pretty immersive collaboration environments. Check out ChatOps as a
concept, and products like Slack, Mattermost or HipChat. Even with more
basic products like Skype or WhatsApp, it is absolutely possible to
achieve collaborative work without physically being in the same building.
--
Regards, Gord Tomlin
Action Software International
(a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507
Jesse 1 Robinson
May 25, 2017, 5:33:16 PM5/25/17
to
I don't want to appear to be lobbying for a position I don't necessarily hold, but as I said earlier, there is no tool yet invented to completely supplant regular *informal* office interaction. As Tom Brennan said, working across from someone invites casual *unplanned* communication that can be vital.
War story. I once got a call from an auditor (!!!) saying that he had just started a JES2 audit in another data center and found that one of the JES2 PROCLIB data sets was missing. Say what? Impossible! I logged on there and sure enough, it was nowhere to be found. Contacted a colleague who worked there daily. He had received a request from an application group to delete a procedure library that they owned but no longer needed for testing. My colleague, the nicest most accommodating guy you can imagine, obliged. He was not a JES2 guy, but he knew how to satisfy a client. All of this transpired miraculously within a few hours. No intervening JES2 restart. Problem fixed before disaster hit.
I can't prove it of course, but I believe that if we had been in the same proximity, I would have caught wind of what was happening in time to intervene. He had not contacted me because he didn't think there would be a problem. That's the rub. Colocation is as much about what you learn accidentally that can save your bacon.
.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robi...@sce.com
War story. I once got a call from an auditor (!!!) saying that he had just started a JES2 audit in another data center and found that one of the JES2 PROCLIB data sets was missing. Say what? Impossible! I logged on there and sure enough, it was nowhere to be found. Contacted a colleague who worked there daily. He had received a request from an application group to delete a procedure library that they owned but no longer needed for testing. My colleague, the nicest most accommodating guy you can imagine, obliged. He was not a JES2 guy, but he knew how to satisfy a client. All of this transpired miraculously within a few hours. No intervening JES2 restart. Problem fixed before disaster hit.
I can't prove it of course, but I believe that if we had been in the same proximity, I would have caught wind of what was happening in time to intervene. He had not contacted me because he didn't think there would be a problem. That's the rub. Colocation is as much about what you learn accidentally that can save your bacon.
.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robi...@sce.com
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Gord Tomlin
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 1:52 PM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Gord Tomlin
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 1:52 PM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Gord Tomlin
May 25, 2017, 6:24:10 PM5/25/17
to
On 2017-05-25 17:32, Jesse 1 Robinson wrote:
> there is no tool yet invented to completely supplant regular*informal* office interaction. As Tom Brennan said, working across from someone invites casual*unplanned* communication that can be vital.
I think what you say is true in an organization where the norm is being
in an office together, and the odd person works remotely.
When it becomes the norm for people to work remotely, the informal and
unplanned communication tends to migrate to whatever communication
medium a team chooses to use. It's generally a good idea to establish a
group chat that includes all team members...call it "Water Cooler" if
that feels good. There's the added bonus that everything can be saved. I
don't normally see stenographers hanging around the real water cooler to
record what spills out. ;)
At the end of the day, there's no "one size fits all" solution. Some
people are wired to be able to effectively collaborate remotely, while
others just aren't. But the trend toward remote work is inexorable,
except apparently at IBM.
> there is no tool yet invented to completely supplant regular*informal* office interaction. As Tom Brennan said, working across from someone invites casual*unplanned* communication that can be vital.
I think what you say is true in an organization where the norm is being
in an office together, and the odd person works remotely.
When it becomes the norm for people to work remotely, the informal and
unplanned communication tends to migrate to whatever communication
medium a team chooses to use. It's generally a good idea to establish a
group chat that includes all team members...call it "Water Cooler" if
that feels good. There's the added bonus that everything can be saved. I
don't normally see stenographers hanging around the real water cooler to
record what spills out. ;)
At the end of the day, there's no "one size fits all" solution. Some
people are wired to be able to effectively collaborate remotely, while
others just aren't. But the trend toward remote work is inexorable,
except apparently at IBM.
Phil Smith
May 25, 2017, 6:57:19 PM5/25/17
to
Gord Tomlin wrote, in part:
Nowadays, with broadband, IM, etc., I would argue that I'm more productive working from home here by far. But some people will find they want/need the separation: "Now I'm in the office working"/"Now I'm home, not working". Since I work for a California company, it *is* hard to turn it off at night...
> At the end of the day, there's no "one size fits all" solution. Some people are wired to be able to effectively collaborate remotely, while others just aren't. But the trend toward remote work is inexorable, except apparently at IBM.
Exactly. And it does change: when I worked at UofW, we had the "bug room", a terminal room where we systems guys all worked together. Every couple of years, someone would say "You guys have offices-why don't you work there and we'll use this room for something else?" and we all said "No way, we're more productive being able to say "Hey, what am I doing wrong here..." and the like.
Nowadays, with broadband, IM, etc., I would argue that I'm more productive working from home here by far. But some people will find they want/need the separation: "Now I'm in the office working"/"Now I'm home, not working". Since I work for a California company, it *is* hard to turn it off at night...
Frank Swarbrick
May 25, 2017, 7:03:19 PM5/25/17
to
My company allows many tech employees to work from home two days a week. I have yet to take advantage of it. I simply don't find myself to be terribly productive when working from home, unless I'm resolving an on-call issue, which is the one case where I do "work from home" (and off hours!).
Not saying anyone else is not productive. It's just not my thing. YYMV!
________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of zMan <zedgar...@GMAIL.COM>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 11:41 AM
Not saying anyone else is not productive. It's just not my thing. YYMV!
________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of zMan <zedgar...@GMAIL.COM>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 11:41 AM
Steve Beaver
May 25, 2017, 8:03:49 PM5/25/17
to
I am most productive when I work from home. They can find me using Lync, or Sametime.
No one comes by just to talk for 5 to 30 minutes, which can be nice however when I'm working on 4 things at once, I don't want to be rude
Steve
No one comes by just to talk for 5 to 30 minutes, which can be nice however when I'm working on 4 things at once, I don't want to be rude
Steve
Edward Gould
May 25, 2017, 9:30:32 PM5/25/17
to
> On May 25, 2017, at 3:52 PM, Gord Tomlin <gt.ibm...@ACTIONSOFTWARE.COM> wrote:
>
> On 2017-05-25 12:58, Burrell, Todd wrote:
>> I've always said that if you think you need someone in the office so you can make sure they are working - then you hired the wrong person. Bad employees will goof off whether they are in the office or at home. And I get a LOT more done from home than I ever do in the office because there are no distractions at home like at the office.
>> And the old "water cooler" argument about learning a lot from discussions in the office has a little merit, but not much. Most of the times these discussions quickly wonder off into personal discussions.
>
> Well put.
>
> To add to the above, the time spent traveling to/from the office (it would be about 8 hours a week for me if I went to the office 5 days a week) is time just thrown away.
>
> It's 2017 now, and there are plenty of tools available that provide pretty immersive collaboration environments. Check out ChatOps as a concept, and products like Slack, Mattermost or HipChat. Even with more basic products like Skype or WhatsApp, it is absolutely possible to achieve collaborative work without physically being in the same building.
>
> ———————————SNIP———————————————
>
> On 2017-05-25 12:58, Burrell, Todd wrote:
>> I've always said that if you think you need someone in the office so you can make sure they are working - then you hired the wrong person. Bad employees will goof off whether they are in the office or at home. And I get a LOT more done from home than I ever do in the office because there are no distractions at home like at the office.
>> And the old "water cooler" argument about learning a lot from discussions in the office has a little merit, but not much. Most of the times these discussions quickly wonder off into personal discussions.
>
> Well put.
>
> To add to the above, the time spent traveling to/from the office (it would be about 8 hours a week for me if I went to the office 5 days a week) is time just thrown away.
>
> It's 2017 now, and there are plenty of tools available that provide pretty immersive collaboration environments. Check out ChatOps as a concept, and products like Slack, Mattermost or HipChat. Even with more basic products like Skype or WhatsApp, it is absolutely possible to achieve collaborative work without physically being in the same building.
>
I do not know anything about the products you mentioned but if they are like I am guessing, thanks but no thanks.
Typing is (to me) intensive and typing up an inquiry about something someone is working on *AND* having to reply is too time consuming. Talk is more spontaneous and with the associated inflections that do not come across in typing (don’t even bring up happy faces to me). Also, I have seen written discusions blow up because the key pad does not come with inflections built in.
Just my opinion.
Ed
Timothy Sipples
May 26, 2017, 4:14:07 AM5/26/17
to
Steve Smith wrote:
>A symphony can hardly be performed with everyone working remotely....
If you're thinking of a live concert performance, OK. However, the recorded
music industry doesn't always, or even very often, operate with every
musician in the same room performing at the same time.
Frank Swarbrick mentioned a two days per week office schedule. That's an
important point. There are many percentages available between 0% and 100%
office v. home office work. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. If an
employer thinks that face-to-face employee "water cooler" interactions are
valuable, OK, but *how* valuable? Can employers capture most or all of that
value if employees are working in an office setting, say, every second full
week every month and working from home offices otherwise? Yes, probably so.
One of the advantages of reducing office desk space is that it "forces"
employees who ought to be client-facing to be more client-facing, to spend
more and better time with clients.
Anyway, there are pros and cons to every work arrangement, but working from
home offices >0% of the time often makes business sense.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy Sipples
IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM z Systems, AP/GCG/MEA
E-Mail: sip...@sg.ibm.com
>A symphony can hardly be performed with everyone working remotely....
If you're thinking of a live concert performance, OK. However, the recorded
music industry doesn't always, or even very often, operate with every
musician in the same room performing at the same time.
Frank Swarbrick mentioned a two days per week office schedule. That's an
important point. There are many percentages available between 0% and 100%
office v. home office work. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. If an
employer thinks that face-to-face employee "water cooler" interactions are
valuable, OK, but *how* valuable? Can employers capture most or all of that
value if employees are working in an office setting, say, every second full
week every month and working from home offices otherwise? Yes, probably so.
One of the advantages of reducing office desk space is that it "forces"
employees who ought to be client-facing to be more client-facing, to spend
more and better time with clients.
Anyway, there are pros and cons to every work arrangement, but working from
home offices >0% of the time often makes business sense.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy Sipples
IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM z Systems, AP/GCG/MEA
E-Mail: sip...@sg.ibm.com
Martin Packer
May 26, 2017, 4:19:44 AM5/26/17
to
2 days a week requires commutability. For example, I go to Hursley about
once a fortnight (and none of my team are there at present). It's about 90
minutes each way, which is OK. Just.
The rest of the time I'm at home or on the road.
Cheers, Martin
Sent from my iPad
IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598.
Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU
Edward Gould
May 26, 2017, 10:07:11 AM5/26/17
to
> On May 26, 2017, at 3:19 AM, Martin Packer <martin...@UK.IBM.COM> wrote:
>
>
> 2 days a week requires commutability. For example, I go to Hursley about
> once a fortnight (and none of my team are there at present). It's about 90
> minutes each way, which is OK. Just.
>
> The rest of the time I'm at home or on the road.
>
> Cheers, Martin
———————SNIP—————————————————
>
>
> 2 days a week requires commutability. For example, I go to Hursley about
> once a fortnight (and none of my team are there at present). It's about 90
> minutes each way, which is OK. Just.
>
> The rest of the time I'm at home or on the road.
>
> Cheers, Martin
Each person/company has their own needs if it works for both of you, congratulations.
I suppose if all you do is dump analyzing I could see it might work, with some caveats.
But the systems programming environments that I have worked in, it doesn’t.
At one job they had a person that worked remotely and to be honest I never knew what the person was working on. The big downfall with that situation is that she had a connection that was at best iffy for weeks at a time. The senior had to go out in the field to try and resolve her connection issues, talk about loss of productivity for two people (this occurred 10 times at least in two months).
I personally cannot see an installation of a new OS of ever working.
As meeting with application types over a problem it the only way I can see it working is with Skype or some such method as to whether you can see each other face to face.
Forget about team meetings as there is no sense of teamonship, for example at one place where I worked one of the sysprogs wanted to have the company pay for a class for JAVA. He was turned down (I thought unfairly), I spoke up and suggested that the company review their education policy as it needed to move forward in its thinking, that it wasn’t about just Mainframes and UNIX was melding in now. Once I spoke up the rest of the group backed me up. The boss said he work rethink his position. If we all hadn’t of sensed what was going on in the room the conversation would have ended with the “no”.
I suppose if you are a follower then remote working is feasible, I just don’t see it as a long term viable option.
Ed
Bobbie Justice
May 26, 2017, 1:58:01 PM5/26/17
to
"I am most productive when I work from home. They can find me using Lync, or Sametime. "
Ditto. I have been working from home for 5 years now, far more productive than I ever was in any office environment.
We have team meetings I dial into, and those, along with the weekly status reports, let other people know what I am working on. If we need to have additional project related meetings (software or hardware upgrades) I dial into those.
Email is available, and so is Skype.
Bobbie Justice
Senior z/OS Systems Engineer
R.S.
May 29, 2017, 3:25:28 AM5/29/17
to
1. Pure confirmed. YMMV.
2. Pure observed everyday, YMMV.
3. It depends on many factors, including openspace, which I hate. YMMV.
Note, sometimes poeple cannot work as "lonely wolf" the have to
cooperate with other folks. If your task is 100% to be done by you with
no interactions, then you can pefrom it everywhere, including your
garden or bathroom. But what it it's not?
The above (and below) are not my imaginations, I've been a manager for
20+ years, used to manage folks onsite and telecommuting as well, so I
based my €0.02 worth opinion on my (and not only mine) experience. Of
course a devils is in the details, people's characters, office
organisation, cultural factors (being in US many times I observed people
in the coffee point behave somewhat differently, I cannot describe it
exactly, but I feel it), etc.
Regards
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland
W dniu 2017-05-25 o 15:44, Steve Smith pisze:
======================================================================
--
Treść tej wiadomości może zawierać informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wyłącznie do użytku służbowego adresata. Odbiorcą może być jedynie jej adresat z wyłączeniem dostępu osób trzecich. Jeżeli nie jesteś adresatem niniejszej wiadomości lub pracownikiem upoważnionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, że jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne działanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i może być karalne. Jeżeli otrzymałeś tę wiadomość omyłkowo, prosimy niezwłocznie zawiadomić nadawcę wysyłając odpowiedź oraz trwale usunąć tę wiadomość włączając w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku.
This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorized to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive.
mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa, www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kon...@mBank.plSąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, nr rejestru przedsiębiorców KRS 0000025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Według stanu na dzień 01.01.2016 r. kapitał zakładowy mBanku S.A. (w całości wpłacony) wynosi 168.955.696 złotych.
2. Pure observed everyday, YMMV.
3. It depends on many factors, including openspace, which I hate. YMMV.
Note, sometimes poeple cannot work as "lonely wolf" the have to
cooperate with other folks. If your task is 100% to be done by you with
no interactions, then you can pefrom it everywhere, including your
garden or bathroom. But what it it's not?
The above (and below) are not my imaginations, I've been a manager for
20+ years, used to manage folks onsite and telecommuting as well, so I
based my €0.02 worth opinion on my (and not only mine) experience. Of
course a devils is in the details, people's characters, office
organisation, cultural factors (being in US many times I observed people
in the coffee point behave somewhat differently, I cannot describe it
exactly, but I feel it), etc.
Regards
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland
W dniu 2017-05-25 o 15:44, Steve Smith pisze:
--
Treść tej wiadomości może zawierać informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wyłącznie do użytku służbowego adresata. Odbiorcą może być jedynie jej adresat z wyłączeniem dostępu osób trzecich. Jeżeli nie jesteś adresatem niniejszej wiadomości lub pracownikiem upoważnionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, że jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne działanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i może być karalne. Jeżeli otrzymałeś tę wiadomość omyłkowo, prosimy niezwłocznie zawiadomić nadawcę wysyłając odpowiedź oraz trwale usunąć tę wiadomość włączając w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku.
This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorized to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive.
mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa, www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kon...@mBank.plSąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, nr rejestru przedsiębiorców KRS 0000025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Według stanu na dzień 01.01.2016 r. kapitał zakładowy mBanku S.A. (w całości wpłacony) wynosi 168.955.696 złotych.
Gabe Goldberg
May 29, 2017, 11:46:44 PM5/29/17
to
It's amazing what technology can do:
http://ericwhitacre.com/the-virtual-choir
https://www.ted.com/talks/eric_whitacre_a_virtual_choir_2_000_voices_strong
...not symphony, but still remote collaboration.
Timothy Sipples <sip...@SG.IBM.COM> quoted
Steve Smith who wrote:
> A symphony can hardly be performed with everyone working remotely....
--
Gabriel Goldberg, Computers and Publishing, Inc. ga...@gabegold.com
3401 Silver Maple Place, Falls Church, VA 22042 (703) 204-0433
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/gabegold Twitter: GabeG0
http://ericwhitacre.com/the-virtual-choir
https://www.ted.com/talks/eric_whitacre_a_virtual_choir_2_000_voices_strong
...not symphony, but still remote collaboration.
Timothy Sipples <sip...@SG.IBM.COM> quoted
Steve Smith who wrote:
> A symphony can hardly be performed with everyone working remotely....
Gabriel Goldberg, Computers and Publishing, Inc. ga...@gabegold.com
3401 Silver Maple Place, Falls Church, VA 22042 (703) 204-0433
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/gabegold Twitter: GabeG0
Lucas Rosalen
May 30, 2017, 10:26:03 AM5/30/17
to
Having worked both at home and at the office, my opinions are:
1. Meetings at the coffee point (and other places) is very big opportunity
to exchange ideas, thoughts, opinions.
- This is true, as long as you have a motivated/enthusiastic tech team.
Otherwise, they will talk about ANYTHING other than work (not that it
wouldn't add any value though - being brazilian, I tend to value a lot
people's inter-relationships).
2. It is much easier to see and control how the emploee spends a time - is
he really busy as declared? No timesheet replace it.
- I've never been a manager, so I don't really know, but I have worked with
managers that didn't care about seeing employees (not even close to top
contributors) on facebook/youtube in the office during regular work hours.
And I also have worked with people that are observably WAY more productive
working from home than at the office. That's, in fact, my case, although I
recognize the value of being at the office.
I agree that if you need watch an employee that closely, you simply hired
the wrong person.
3. Some people do work more effectively when they have no external
"disturbants" (a dog, neighbour, postman, favourite comedy on TV...)
- I found it more distubing to be at the office (too loud, too many people
walking around, too "available" for management queries, etc ), than at
home. It's a matter of letting people at home (and yourself, of course)
know that you're just physically there, but you're simply OFF for
everything.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Lucas Rosalen*
Emails: rosale...@gmail.com / *lros...@pl.ibm.com
<lros...@br.ibm.com>*
LinkedIn: http://br.linkedin.com/in/lrosalen
Phone: +48 (71) 792 809 198
1. Meetings at the coffee point (and other places) is very big opportunity
to exchange ideas, thoughts, opinions.
Otherwise, they will talk about ANYTHING other than work (not that it
wouldn't add any value though - being brazilian, I tend to value a lot
people's inter-relationships).
2. It is much easier to see and control how the emploee spends a time - is
he really busy as declared? No timesheet replace it.
managers that didn't care about seeing employees (not even close to top
contributors) on facebook/youtube in the office during regular work hours.
And I also have worked with people that are observably WAY more productive
working from home than at the office. That's, in fact, my case, although I
recognize the value of being at the office.
I agree that if you need watch an employee that closely, you simply hired
the wrong person.
3. Some people do work more effectively when they have no external
"disturbants" (a dog, neighbour, postman, favourite comedy on TV...)
walking around, too "available" for management queries, etc ), than at
home. It's a matter of letting people at home (and yourself, of course)
know that you're just physically there, but you're simply OFF for
everything.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Lucas Rosalen*
Emails: rosale...@gmail.com / *lros...@pl.ibm.com
<lros...@br.ibm.com>*
LinkedIn: http://br.linkedin.com/in/lrosalen
Phone: +48 (71) 792 809 198
David L. Craig
May 30, 2017, 11:08:39 AM5/30/17
to
On 17May29:2346-0400, Gabe Goldberg wrote:
> It's amazing what technology can do:
> http://ericwhitacre.com/the-virtual-choir
>
> https://www.ted.com/talks/eric_whitacre_a_virtual_choir_2_000_voices_strong
>
> ...not symphony, but still remote collaboration.
>
> Timothy Sipples <sip...@SG.IBM.COM> quoted
>
> Steve Smith who wrote:
>
> > A symphony can hardly be performed with everyone working remotely....
The collaboration is not in real time. It's like getting
> It's amazing what technology can do:
> http://ericwhitacre.com/the-virtual-choir
>
> https://www.ted.com/talks/eric_whitacre_a_virtual_choir_2_000_voices_strong
>
> ...not symphony, but still remote collaboration.
>
> Timothy Sipples <sip...@SG.IBM.COM> quoted
>
> Steve Smith who wrote:
>
> > A symphony can hardly be performed with everyone working remotely....
a thousand postcards and taping them together into a collage.
Realtime remote jamming infrastructure is still battling
with the speed of light, but in a few decades modulation of
entangled atoms separated by hundreds of kilometers will
probably trickle down into the high-level musician's home
studio infrastructure.
--
<not cent from sell>
May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly!
Dave_Craig______________________________________________
"So the universe is not quite as you thought it was.
You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then.
Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe."
__--from_Nightfall_by_Asimov/Silverberg_________________
Paul Gilmartin
May 30, 2017, 11:27:42 AM5/30/17
to
On Tue, 30 May 2017 15:08:28 +0000, David L. Craig wrote:
>On 17May29:2346-0400, Gabe Goldberg wrote:
>
>> It's amazing what technology can do:
>> http://ericwhitacre.com/the-virtual-choir
>>
>> https://www.ted.com/talks/eric_whitacre_a_virtual_choir_2_000_voices_strong
>>
>> ...not symphony, but still remote collaboration.
>>
>> Timothy Sipples quoted
>On 17May29:2346-0400, Gabe Goldberg wrote:
>
>> It's amazing what technology can do:
>> http://ericwhitacre.com/the-virtual-choir
>>
>> https://www.ted.com/talks/eric_whitacre_a_virtual_choir_2_000_voices_strong
>>
>> ...not symphony, but still remote collaboration.
>>
>>
>> > A symphony can hardly be performed with everyone working remotely....
>
>The collaboration is not in real time. It's like getting
>a thousand postcards and taping them together into a collage.
>Realtime remote jamming infrastructure is still battling
>with the speed of light, but in a few decades modulation of
>entangled atoms separated by hundreds of kilometers will
>probably trickle down into the high-level musician's home
>studio infrastructure.
>
Interesting pre-pre-pre-Friday topic. I take SR's prohibition of
>> > A symphony can hardly be performed with everyone working remotely....
>
>The collaboration is not in real time. It's like getting
>a thousand postcards and taping them together into a collage.
>Realtime remote jamming infrastructure is still battling
>with the speed of light, but in a few decades modulation of
>entangled atoms separated by hundreds of kilometers will
>probably trickle down into the high-level musician's home
>studio infrastructure.
>
superluminal communication as absolute. But can a choir be
synchronized without transmitting information from one member
to another? This seems to reflect the assumption for quantum
computing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox#Measurements_on_an_entangled_state
-- gil
David L. Craig
May 30, 2017, 12:00:30 PM5/30/17
to
On 17May30:1027-0500, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> >
> Interesting pre-pre-pre-Friday topic. I take SR's prohibition of
> superluminal communication as absolute. But can a choir be
> synchronized without transmitting information from one member
> to another? This seems to reflect the assumption for quantum
> computing.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox#Measurements_on_an_entangled_state
Paul, they're working on it:
> >
> Interesting pre-pre-pre-Friday topic. I take SR's prohibition of
> superluminal communication as absolute. But can a choir be
> synchronized without transmitting information from one member
> to another? This seems to reflect the assumption for quantum
> computing.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox#Measurements_on_an_entangled_state
https://phys.org/news/2012-09-km-physicists-quantum-teleportation-distance.html
https://www.sciencealert.com/a-new-quantum-teleportation-distance-record-has-been-set
Who knows how far the TS crowd has gotten with this research?
Naturally there are lots of rumors of deployments of such
wireless routers about.
So this is not Friday discussion.
--
<not cent from sell>
May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly!
Dave_Craig______________________________________________
"So the universe is not quite as you thought it was.
You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then.
Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe."
__--from_Nightfall_by_Asimov/Silverberg_________________
<not cent from sell>
May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly!
Dave_Craig______________________________________________
"So the universe is not quite as you thought it was.
You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then.
Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe."
__--from_Nightfall_by_Asimov/Silverberg_________________
Dana Mitchell
May 30, 2017, 1:03:27 PM5/30/17
to
In my time working from home for 6 years, I experienced both ends of the spectrum and can see both sides of the discussion. One situation was that everyone was geographically dispersed, we collaborated via email, sometime, conference call etc, whatever fit the subject and the size of the group. Since everyone was in the same situation, it seemed to work ok. A differnt situation was where I was the odd person remote, and everyone else was centrally located. I was just one voice on a speakerphone in a meeting room filled with people, and that didn't work out so well. There was also a lot of face to face exchange due to the nature of the environment (sort of a lab setting). Luckily I had a couple of good co-workers that kept me informed and pointed me to the correct people for information.
Dana
On Thu, 25 May 2017 18:23:56 -0400, Gord Tomlin <gt.ibm...@ACTIONSOFTWARE.COM> wrote:
>On 2017-05-25 17:32, Jesse 1 Robinson wrote:
>> there is no tool yet invented to completely supplant regular*informal* office interaction. As Tom Brennan said, working across from someone invites casual*unplanned* communication that can be vital.
>
>I think what you say is true in an organization where the norm is being
>in an office together, and the odd person works remotely.
>
>When it becomes the norm for people to work remotely, the informal and
>unplanned communication tends to migrate to whatever communication
>medium a team chooses to use.
Dana
On Thu, 25 May 2017 18:23:56 -0400, Gord Tomlin <gt.ibm...@ACTIONSOFTWARE.COM> wrote:
>On 2017-05-25 17:32, Jesse 1 Robinson wrote:
>> there is no tool yet invented to completely supplant regular*informal* office interaction. As Tom Brennan said, working across from someone invites casual*unplanned* communication that can be vital.
>
>I think what you say is true in an organization where the norm is being
>in an office together, and the odd person works remotely.
>
>When it becomes the norm for people to work remotely, the informal and
>unplanned communication tends to migrate to whatever communication
>medium a team chooses to use.
Timothy Sipples
May 31, 2017, 1:00:23 AM5/31/17
to
We're getting deep into the weeds here, but I'd like to point out that even
for a live symphonic performance it's technically possible, using today's
technologies and limits of physics, to split the orchestra in half and
still deliver an excellent live performance.
To illustrate how this works, let's suppose the two halves are Orchestra A
and Orchestra B. A is in Vienna, and B is in Tokyo, let's suppose. The
audience is sitting anywhere -- it can be a live concert broadcast, for
example. And let's suppose the conductor is also in Vienna with Orchestra
A, with high fidelity audio and video links, unidirectional from Vienna to
Tokyo. The conductor and Orchestra A start playing. Orchestra B starts
playing a fraction of a second later (assuming the piece calls for a
simultaneous start), guided by the same conductor and Orchestra A's musical
and other queues. The broadcast is transmitted, live, out of Tokyo from the
two feeds and carefully synchronized: one feed remote from Vienna, and one
local from Tokyo. As long as the transmission delay from Vienna to Tokyo
holds steady, everything works in this example....
....And as long as Orchestra A includes enough of the musicians so that
they don't need to rely on any musical or other cues from Orchestra B.
Orchestra B can, of course, rely on any/all cues from Orchestra A. In this
scenario they would be wearing earpieces or headphones, and they'd have a
video screen to watch the conductor and their fellow musicians in Orchestra
A. Maybe the members of Orchestra B would be wearing virtual reality
goggles.
Anyway, the point is that even with live performances, even with speed of
light transmission delays, a split orchestra can still create first class
live music together. As long as that digital transmission doesn't "wobble"
any more than the atmosphere within a single concert hall between the
musicians' ears would, and with the other caveats, it all works.
This basic approach has been used for live broadcast performances, usually
with vocalists in the Orchestra B part.
In some cases more than two parts are possible: A and B1, B2, B3, etc. When
there are more than two parts the broadcast equipment needs to add
location-specific delays to each of the feeds before transmission in order
to synchronize them properly. But it's possible.
There are some computing analogs to these split orchestral scenarios.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy Sipples
IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM z Systems, AP/GCG/MEA
E-Mail: sip...@sg.ibm.com
for a live symphonic performance it's technically possible, using today's
technologies and limits of physics, to split the orchestra in half and
still deliver an excellent live performance.
To illustrate how this works, let's suppose the two halves are Orchestra A
and Orchestra B. A is in Vienna, and B is in Tokyo, let's suppose. The
audience is sitting anywhere -- it can be a live concert broadcast, for
example. And let's suppose the conductor is also in Vienna with Orchestra
A, with high fidelity audio and video links, unidirectional from Vienna to
Tokyo. The conductor and Orchestra A start playing. Orchestra B starts
playing a fraction of a second later (assuming the piece calls for a
simultaneous start), guided by the same conductor and Orchestra A's musical
and other queues. The broadcast is transmitted, live, out of Tokyo from the
two feeds and carefully synchronized: one feed remote from Vienna, and one
local from Tokyo. As long as the transmission delay from Vienna to Tokyo
holds steady, everything works in this example....
....And as long as Orchestra A includes enough of the musicians so that
they don't need to rely on any musical or other cues from Orchestra B.
Orchestra B can, of course, rely on any/all cues from Orchestra A. In this
scenario they would be wearing earpieces or headphones, and they'd have a
video screen to watch the conductor and their fellow musicians in Orchestra
A. Maybe the members of Orchestra B would be wearing virtual reality
goggles.
Anyway, the point is that even with live performances, even with speed of
light transmission delays, a split orchestra can still create first class
live music together. As long as that digital transmission doesn't "wobble"
any more than the atmosphere within a single concert hall between the
musicians' ears would, and with the other caveats, it all works.
This basic approach has been used for live broadcast performances, usually
with vocalists in the Orchestra B part.
In some cases more than two parts are possible: A and B1, B2, B3, etc. When
there are more than two parts the broadcast equipment needs to add
location-specific delays to each of the feeds before transmission in order
to synchronize them properly. But it's possible.
There are some computing analogs to these split orchestral scenarios.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy Sipples
IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM z Systems, AP/GCG/MEA
E-Mail: sip...@sg.ibm.com
Out The Darkness Just for All My Haters
May 31, 2017, 4:08:44 AM5/31/17
to
Well I'm my opinion and not that it seems to really matter. I didn't sign
up for this.
How would any of you feel if your life and every move was available for A
or B or 5,000 others to see day after day for how long?
Really. How long has this gone on before you all.started really pressing me
for reactions?
I didn't sign no contract for this. I.do not get paid a single penny for
what I'm out through.
So who makes all the money by making sure my life is as miserable as
possible?
IBM, Apple, Metro PCS, Sprint, ATT, Brighthouse networks? How many deceived
me?
So Corporations get paid large amounts of money to A) Push people over the
edge with all the BS I am fed. Why? Ratings?
Is my health costing the state to much money? Cause I don't go to the Dr so
everyone is complaining about how much a life night take away some of the
billiions they have while I have to resort to foood stamps tomorrow to feed
my kids.
Keep your damn money and your acts where do I sign the dotted line at to
have my right to privacy back? My right to freedom of speech back?
You all get to state your opinions no matter how rude or derogatory they
are. Im the ass end of every post, video, news feed but oh no if I'm not
kidding everyones ass its hell to pay.
So, guess what I am over being your puppets. Let someone threaten your
life, fteedom, and civil rights to live in peace. Then let them threaten
your children. How many of you would still smile and kiss ass?
Cause none of you perfect corporate folks ever get upset or vent?
I'm gonna pull every device and router out of this house and get a plug in
a aLl pbone.
Because human slavery is still.illegal in my state and human slavery is
what you all have made of me.
What happens if one day the crap you all do costs a life? A childs life
from being bullied or maybe one day you push me to far? That nakes each one
of you sitting in your new homes with your sports car and fancy wives or
rich husbands no lesa of a murder than the one I live with.
Oh wait or is that another lie?
Because if what I read on him today is true you are all worse than murders
to know that and quietly stand back and watch it happen to me and my kids.
And if you made it up ask your selves how you feel about bringing a mom to
rock bottom taking her husband and kids with your stories lies and sales on
innocent people and their lives. Id be praying or begging Karma or the Lord
was a bit easier in you at judgement tine then the world of jerks out there
laughing and betting and making money off tormenting others.
Get what you can in now cause all the ways your all able to make money off
us goes to the dump tomorrow.
Try game day with no players. I didn't sign a contract to work free so
I.guess I wouldn't be breaking one one would I.
One last request. If your gonns deport me or cps is gonna take my children
with our even tellimg me stop posting it. There is not a dang thing that I
could do.to sstop it thats been proven.time.and time again.
You should all feel ashamed at what your pockets fillimg up has done to my
home anf lights. There isnt much better about you then me. Noe is there.
Ps stop with the im pregnante headlines. At 34 I had to chiose between
wanting anothef baby and my life and thar jokes tasteless.
Peace out
up for this.
How would any of you feel if your life and every move was available for A
or B or 5,000 others to see day after day for how long?
Really. How long has this gone on before you all.started really pressing me
for reactions?
I didn't sign no contract for this. I.do not get paid a single penny for
what I'm out through.
So who makes all the money by making sure my life is as miserable as
possible?
IBM, Apple, Metro PCS, Sprint, ATT, Brighthouse networks? How many deceived
me?
So Corporations get paid large amounts of money to A) Push people over the
edge with all the BS I am fed. Why? Ratings?
Is my health costing the state to much money? Cause I don't go to the Dr so
everyone is complaining about how much a life night take away some of the
billiions they have while I have to resort to foood stamps tomorrow to feed
my kids.
Keep your damn money and your acts where do I sign the dotted line at to
have my right to privacy back? My right to freedom of speech back?
You all get to state your opinions no matter how rude or derogatory they
are. Im the ass end of every post, video, news feed but oh no if I'm not
kidding everyones ass its hell to pay.
So, guess what I am over being your puppets. Let someone threaten your
life, fteedom, and civil rights to live in peace. Then let them threaten
your children. How many of you would still smile and kiss ass?
Cause none of you perfect corporate folks ever get upset or vent?
I'm gonna pull every device and router out of this house and get a plug in
a aLl pbone.
Because human slavery is still.illegal in my state and human slavery is
what you all have made of me.
What happens if one day the crap you all do costs a life? A childs life
from being bullied or maybe one day you push me to far? That nakes each one
of you sitting in your new homes with your sports car and fancy wives or
rich husbands no lesa of a murder than the one I live with.
Oh wait or is that another lie?
Because if what I read on him today is true you are all worse than murders
to know that and quietly stand back and watch it happen to me and my kids.
And if you made it up ask your selves how you feel about bringing a mom to
rock bottom taking her husband and kids with your stories lies and sales on
innocent people and their lives. Id be praying or begging Karma or the Lord
was a bit easier in you at judgement tine then the world of jerks out there
laughing and betting and making money off tormenting others.
Get what you can in now cause all the ways your all able to make money off
us goes to the dump tomorrow.
Try game day with no players. I didn't sign a contract to work free so
I.guess I wouldn't be breaking one one would I.
One last request. If your gonns deport me or cps is gonna take my children
with our even tellimg me stop posting it. There is not a dang thing that I
could do.to sstop it thats been proven.time.and time again.
You should all feel ashamed at what your pockets fillimg up has done to my
home anf lights. There isnt much better about you then me. Noe is there.
Ps stop with the im pregnante headlines. At 34 I had to chiose between
wanting anothef baby and my life and thar jokes tasteless.
Peace out
R.S.
May 31, 2017, 7:34:29 AM5/31/17
to
W dniu 2017-05-30 o 17:27, Paul Gilmartin pisze:
> [...]
can be done remotely, the direct presence is much more interesting.
Of course, everything depends on details. As Lucas mentioned, the value
from meetings require the team to be "ethusiastic" or just mitivated to
do some common (team) work. Otherwise this won't play. Like a date with
wrong person.
The same apply to work in office. Open space is the worst case for
concetration, however lack of direct presence of coworkoers can also be
an obstacle, not to mention not-good-enough connection, laptop display
instead of two big LCD monitors, etc.
As usually, YMMV.
(Disclaimer: my Enlgish is poor, some nuances can be lost in translation. )
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland
> [...]
>>> https://www.ted.com/talks/eric_whitacre_a_virtual_choir_2_000_voices_strong
>>>
>>> ...not symphony, but still remote collaboration.
>>>
>>> Timothy Sipples quoted
>>>
>>>> A symphony can hardly be performed with everyone working remotely....
>> The collaboration is not in real time. It's like getting
>> a thousand postcards and taping them together into a collage.
>> Realtime remote jamming infrastructure is still battling
>> with the speed of light, but in a few decades modulation of
>> entangled atoms separated by hundreds of kilometers will
>> probably trickle down into the high-level musician's home
>> studio infrastructure.
>>
> Interesting pre-pre-pre-Friday topic. I take SR's prohibition of
> superluminal communication as absolute. But can a choir be
> synchronized without transmitting information from one member
> to another? This seems to reflect the assumption for quantum
> computing.
It is not like choir, it's more like date (boy and girl meeting). While
>>>
>>> ...not symphony, but still remote collaboration.
>>>
>>> Timothy Sipples quoted
>>>
>>>> A symphony can hardly be performed with everyone working remotely....
>> The collaboration is not in real time. It's like getting
>> a thousand postcards and taping them together into a collage.
>> Realtime remote jamming infrastructure is still battling
>> with the speed of light, but in a few decades modulation of
>> entangled atoms separated by hundreds of kilometers will
>> probably trickle down into the high-level musician's home
>> studio infrastructure.
>>
> Interesting pre-pre-pre-Friday topic. I take SR's prohibition of
> superluminal communication as absolute. But can a choir be
> synchronized without transmitting information from one member
> to another? This seems to reflect the assumption for quantum
> computing.
can be done remotely, the direct presence is much more interesting.
Of course, everything depends on details. As Lucas mentioned, the value
from meetings require the team to be "ethusiastic" or just mitivated to
do some common (team) work. Otherwise this won't play. Like a date with
wrong person.
The same apply to work in office. Open space is the worst case for
concetration, however lack of direct presence of coworkoers can also be
an obstacle, not to mention not-good-enough connection, laptop display
instead of two big LCD monitors, etc.
As usually, YMMV.
(Disclaimer: my Enlgish is poor, some nuances can be lost in translation. )
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland
======================================================================
--
Treść tej wiadomości może zawierać informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wyłącznie do użytku służbowego adresata. Odbiorcą może być jedynie jej adresat z wyłączeniem dostępu osób trzecich. Jeżeli nie jesteś adresatem niniejszej wiadomości lub pracownikiem upoważnionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, że jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne działanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i może być karalne. Jeżeli otrzymałeś tę wiadomość omyłkowo, prosimy niezwłocznie zawiadomić nadawcę wysyłając odpowiedź oraz trwale usunąć tę wiadomość włączając w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku.
This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorized to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive.
mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa, www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kon...@mBank.plSąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, nr rejestru przedsiębiorców KRS 0000025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Według stanu na dzień 01.01.2016 r. kapitał zakładowy mBanku S.A. (w całości wpłacony) wynosi 168.955.696 złotych.
--
Treść tej wiadomości może zawierać informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wyłącznie do użytku służbowego adresata. Odbiorcą może być jedynie jej adresat z wyłączeniem dostępu osób trzecich. Jeżeli nie jesteś adresatem niniejszej wiadomości lub pracownikiem upoważnionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, że jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne działanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i może być karalne. Jeżeli otrzymałeś tę wiadomość omyłkowo, prosimy niezwłocznie zawiadomić nadawcę wysyłając odpowiedź oraz trwale usunąć tę wiadomość włączając w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku.
This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorized to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive.
mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa, www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kon...@mBank.plSąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, nr rejestru przedsiębiorców KRS 0000025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Według stanu na dzień 01.01.2016 r. kapitał zakładowy mBanku S.A. (w całości wpłacony) wynosi 168.955.696 złotych.
Steve Thompson
May 31, 2017, 10:48:59 AM5/31/17
to
On 05/31/2017 07:33 AM, R.S. wrote:
<SNIPPAGE>
Or to put this as it is actually meant: I wish my German was as
good as your English.
Mind you, I have German speaking family, so my need for German is
more than to pass a class...
-- Computer related reasons: I need to converse with SUSE
personnel in Germany from time to time, and my German spelling is
terrible.
Regards,
Steve Thompson
<SNIPPAGE>
>
> (Disclaimer: my Enlgish is poor, some nuances can be lost in
> translation. )
>
I wish my German was as poor as your English.
> (Disclaimer: my Enlgish is poor, some nuances can be lost in
> translation. )
>
Or to put this as it is actually meant: I wish my German was as
good as your English.
Mind you, I have German speaking family, so my need for German is
more than to pass a class...
-- Computer related reasons: I need to converse with SUSE
personnel in Germany from time to time, and my German spelling is
terrible.
Regards,
Steve Thompson
Elardus Engelbrecht
May 31, 2017, 12:35:42 PM5/31/17
to
Steve Thompson wrote:
>Radoslaw wrote:
>> (Disclaimer: my Enlgish is poor, some nuances can be lost in translation. )
>I wish my German was as poor as your English.
>Or to put this as it is actually meant: I wish my German was as good as your English.
Hahaha, I wish my English is good, better and excellent like your and others English.
If I could only speak Afrikaans on IBM-MAIN, but I believe I'm in the minority... ;-D
Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht
>Radoslaw wrote:
>> (Disclaimer: my Enlgish is poor, some nuances can be lost in translation. )
>I wish my German was as poor as your English.
>Or to put this as it is actually meant: I wish my German was as good as your English.
If I could only speak Afrikaans on IBM-MAIN, but I believe I'm in the minority... ;-D
Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht
David L. Craig
May 31, 2017, 1:29:41 PM5/31/17
to
On 17May31:1259+0800, Timothy Sipples wrote:
> In some cases more than two parts are possible: A and B1, B2, B3, etc. When
> there are more than two parts the broadcast equipment needs to add
> location-specific delays to each of the feeds before transmission in order
> to synchronize them properly. But it's possible.
>
> There are some computing analogs to these split orchestral scenarios.
I'm still waiting for top session players to remote into the studios
> In some cases more than two parts are possible: A and B1, B2, B3, etc. When
> there are more than two parts the broadcast equipment needs to add
> location-specific delays to each of the feeds before transmission in order
> to synchronize them properly. But it's possible.
>
> There are some computing analogs to these split orchestral scenarios.
such that their local time morning dates are in LA and Nashville and
afternoon in Brazil and Paris. Only Brazil cancels, but a call comes
in from Sydney for that slot, so it's all good. That evening there is
a live freewheeling jazz jam session featuring players no closer to
each other than ten thousand killometers.
Audio latencies above 20 milliseconds are challenging:
https://blog.highfidelity.com/how-much-latency-can-live-musicians-tolerate-da8e2ebe587a
--
<not cent from sell>
May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly!
Dave_Craig______________________________________________
"So the universe is not quite as you thought it was.
You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then.
Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe."
__--from_Nightfall_by_Asimov/Silverberg_________________
<not cent from sell>
May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly!
Dave_Craig______________________________________________
"So the universe is not quite as you thought it was.
You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then.
Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe."
__--from_Nightfall_by_Asimov/Silverberg_________________
Steve Smith
May 31, 2017, 4:57:27 PM5/31/17
to
Not that I'm in favor of off-topic discussions, but like so many, I can't
resist. Re German: This is a must-see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Awful_German_Language, about Mark Twain's
ROTFLMAO essay. The article's information about analytic vs. synthetic
languages is interesting, too.
To Elardus & Radoslaw: Us native English speakers have to deal with the
world's most complicated language (citation needed), so we have no extra
capacity to learn other languages. We're sorry :-)
sas
--
sas
resist. Re German: This is a must-see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Awful_German_Language, about Mark Twain's
ROTFLMAO essay. The article's information about analytic vs. synthetic
languages is interesting, too.
To Elardus & Radoslaw: Us native English speakers have to deal with the
world's most complicated language (citation needed), so we have no extra
capacity to learn other languages. We're sorry :-)
sas
sas
Wayne Bickerdike
May 31, 2017, 5:39:49 PM5/31/17
to
Did a European tour with a Namibian tour guide. He said Afrikaans is known
as "baby Dutch". The same way that us English speakers think of US English
as "baby English".
--
Wayne V. Bickerdike
as "baby Dutch". The same way that us English speakers think of US English
as "baby English".
Wayne V. Bickerdike
Peter Hunkeler
Jun 1, 2017, 1:40:14 AM6/1/17
to
> Us native English speakers have to deal with the world's most complicated language (citation needed), so we have no extra capacity to learn other languages. We're sorry :-)
--
Peter Hunkeler
Native Swiss German speaker
Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
Jun 1, 2017, 2:08:33 AM6/1/17
to
> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Elardus Engelbrecht
> Sent: 31 May, 2017 18:36
> To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Language Skills
>
>
> If I could only speak Afrikaans on IBM-MAIN, but I believe I'm in the
> minority... ;-D
>
We would understand each other.
> Sent: 31 May, 2017 18:36
> To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Language Skills
>
>
> If I could only speak Afrikaans on IBM-MAIN, but I believe I'm in the
> minority... ;-D
>
Groeten,
Kees.
> Groete / Greetings
> Elardus Engelbrecht
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to list...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
For information, services and offers, please visit our web site: http://www.klm.com. This e-mail and any attachment may contain confidential and privileged material intended for the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that no part of the e-mail or any attachment may be disclosed, copied or distributed, and that any other action related to this e-mail or attachment is strictly prohibited, and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail by error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, and delete this message.
Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij NV (KLM), its subsidiaries and/or its employees shall not be liable for the incorrect or incomplete transmission of this e-mail or any attachments, nor responsible for any delay in receipt.
Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij N.V. (also known as KLM Royal Dutch Airlines) is registered in Amstelveen, The Netherlands, with registered number 33014286
********************************************************
Elardus Engelbrecht
Jun 1, 2017, 4:02:21 AM6/1/17
to
Vernooij, Kees (ITOPT1) - KLM wrote:
>> If I could only speak Afrikaans on IBM-MAIN, but I believe I'm in the minority... ;-D
>We would understand each other.
Indeed. But some words in both Afrikaans and Dutch have totally different meaning despite identical spelling.
>> If I could only speak Afrikaans on IBM-MAIN, but I believe I'm in the minority... ;-D
>We would understand each other.
Many years ago, one of our singers, an Afrikaans singer/actor, toured Netherlands and she innocently said a word during a conversation in a mixture of Afrikaans+Dutch. The people around her were really not that amused. That was a big OOOOOPS!
I wish, I could remember what she said.
Kees, when I'm big and rich, I want to tour your beautiful country...
Now speaking of tourism, why is the one LOGREC DD statement named TOURIST?
These LOGREC things like ACCIN, ACCDEV, DIRECTWK, EREPPT, I can understand why, but TOURIST? I am accustomed with strange names like IGDZILLA in LPALIB, but can't get over TOURIST... ;-)
Steve Beaver
Jun 1, 2017, 9:59:36 AM6/1/17
to
English is not a mechanical language with a lot of grammatical rules. The
was long time known as the mongrels language since it pull parts and pieces
from other older languages
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Peter Hunkeler
Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2017 12:40 AM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Language Skills
was long time known as the mongrels language since it pull parts and pieces
from other older languages
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Peter Hunkeler
Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2017 12:40 AM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Language Skills
Jesse 1 Robinson
Jun 1, 2017, 5:15:42 PM6/1/17
to
Gotta jump in here. I know some German. I have training in linguistics, which means I know *about* languages that I could not survive in for a moment. And I have experience with English as a Second Language.
I have to take umbrage with the assertion that English is hugely difficult or complicated. Except for spelling, or course, which is inexcusably complex by any standard. But grammar is relatively simple in that the overwhelming syntactic governance is order: subject-verb-object characterizes most well-formed sentences. Compare with German:
Der Mann gab der Dame einen Hund. (The man gave the woman a dog.)
These variations are (loosely) equivalent:
Einen Hund gab der Mann der Dame.
Der Dame gab der Mann einen Hund.
You cannot flip the order around in English without creating nonsense. What preserves the meaning in German is the declension of the nouns. 'der Mann' is marked as subject (nominative) in any position; 'einen Hund is direct object (accusative); 'der Dame' is indirect object (dative). English has no declension outside of personal pronouns, so order is critical 99% of the time. Hence the famous quote about newsworthy topics:
'Dog Bites Man' is not news. 'Man Bites Dog' deserves at least a mention. 'Ein Hund Beißt einen Mann' would mean (more or less) the same thing in either order if declension is preserved.
Since COBOL is English-inspired, syntactic order is crucial there too. 'MOVE SPACES TO LINE' could in no way be replaced with 'TO LINE MOVE SPACES' even if the goal is to rhetorically emphasize the destination. Same is true for other high-level languages like REXX. Even assembler requires a specific order depending on the instruction. You cannot grammatically mark an operand such that flipping order would preserve the meaning.
.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robi...@sce.com
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Steve Beaver
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2017 6:59 AM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: Language Skills
English is not a mechanical language with a lot of grammatical rules. The was long time known as the mongrels language since it pull parts and pieces from other older languages
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Hunkeler
Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2017 12:40 AM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Language Skills
> Us native English speakers have to deal with the world's most
> complicated language (citation needed), so we have no extra capacity
> to learn other languages. We're sorry :-)
LOL. Mankind loves to be challenged, and this explains why that most complicated language in the world is now ubiqutious :-)
--
Peter Hunkeler
Native Swiss German
I have to take umbrage with the assertion that English is hugely difficult or complicated. Except for spelling, or course, which is inexcusably complex by any standard. But grammar is relatively simple in that the overwhelming syntactic governance is order: subject-verb-object characterizes most well-formed sentences. Compare with German:
Der Mann gab der Dame einen Hund. (The man gave the woman a dog.)
These variations are (loosely) equivalent:
Einen Hund gab der Mann der Dame.
Der Dame gab der Mann einen Hund.
You cannot flip the order around in English without creating nonsense. What preserves the meaning in German is the declension of the nouns. 'der Mann' is marked as subject (nominative) in any position; 'einen Hund is direct object (accusative); 'der Dame' is indirect object (dative). English has no declension outside of personal pronouns, so order is critical 99% of the time. Hence the famous quote about newsworthy topics:
'Dog Bites Man' is not news. 'Man Bites Dog' deserves at least a mention. 'Ein Hund Beißt einen Mann' would mean (more or less) the same thing in either order if declension is preserved.
Since COBOL is English-inspired, syntactic order is crucial there too. 'MOVE SPACES TO LINE' could in no way be replaced with 'TO LINE MOVE SPACES' even if the goal is to rhetorically emphasize the destination. Same is true for other high-level languages like REXX. Even assembler requires a specific order depending on the instruction. You cannot grammatically mark an operand such that flipping order would preserve the meaning.
.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
robi...@sce.com
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Steve Beaver
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2017 6:59 AM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: Language Skills
English is not a mechanical language with a lot of grammatical rules. The was long time known as the mongrels language since it pull parts and pieces from other older languages
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Hunkeler
Sent: Thursday, June 1, 2017 12:40 AM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Language Skills
> Us native English speakers have to deal with the world's most
> complicated language (citation needed), so we have no extra capacity
> to learn other languages. We're sorry :-)
LOL. Mankind loves to be challenged, and this explains why that most complicated language in the world is now ubiqutious :-)
--
Peter Hunkeler
Native Swiss German
0 new messages