Megas Aleksavdros (gay or not gay...)
Maria Karra
priv merikes wres sto biblio "Alexander the Great" tou E.E. Rice:
Perigrafei leptomerws to poso epive o Alekos, to poso zalismevos ntav
meta to methysi kai dev nksere ti ekave, to pws skotwse tov Kleito pavw
sto methysi, kai gevika tov perigrafei ws mpekrn. Gia va apofygei
pareksngnseis, grafei sto telos tou bibliou oti se kamia periptwsn dev
ypostnrizei oti o Alekos ntav "alcoholic, by the modern clinical
definition of the term"....
Telos pavtwv, tou to sygxwroume.
Leei omws ki akoma kati pou me paraksevepse: "His close friendship with
Hephaistion may indicate that he was bisexual, but this was a common
trait among men in ancient Greece".
Akoute bre seis? Common trait. Hksera oti polla orgia givovtav stnv
arxaia Ellada, alla ntav toso common pia? Mexri ki o Aleksavdros!
Alntheia eivai auto? H o sygxrovos amerikavos Rice vomizei oti n arxaia
Ellada ntav USA kai molis douv mia filia metaksy avdrwv amesws va tous
bgalouv to ovoma?
Maria
Elizabeth Kosmetatou
syggrafeis avaferouv oti prwtov ntav omofylofilos (n toulaxistov amfi me
ropn pros tnv omofylofilia omws) kai deuterov ovtws alkoolikos. O logos pou
n syggrafeas grafei oti dev tov apokalei alkoolikn me tn snmerivn snmasia
tou orou eivai oti profavws dev tov exei mprosta tns kai diagvwsn dev
mporei va kavei. Me ta stoixeia omws pou yparxouv (ektos tns dolofovias tou
Kleitou, klp.) prokyptei oti para tis aretes tou ws stratngou kai tn
morfwsn tou ntav kakoma0nmevos, biaios (mexri kai oi ypostnriktes tou to
grafave auto, blepe Ptolemaio Lagou p.x.) kai epive yperbolika kai otav
epive dev n3ere ti ekave. Blepe tnv istoria p.x. me tous Ellnves apogovous
twv Didymaiwv pou tous esfa3e stnv psyxra teleiws gia logo pou ypnrxe movo
sto kefali tou (av diabaze ligo Hrodoto p.x. dev 0a apedide stous progovous
tou osa tous apedide o avontos).
Gegovos eivai oti av epive opoisdnpote oso epive o Megalekos 0a katelnge
alkoolikos. Yparxouv polles perigrafes twv yperbolikwv tou avtidrasewv kai
avafores sto poso epive, ara eivai logiko va kataln3ei kaveis oti ntav
alkoolikos. Big time! Exei grafei pavw s' auto kai biblio pou můazeuei tis
pnges, tou John Maxwell O' Brien me titlo "Alexander the Great. The
Invisible Enemy".
Kai gia va pw kai to disclaimer: proswpika dev me peirazei ka0olou to oti
ntav omofylofilos. Giati to 0ewreis brisia? Movo kati Ellnvares peirazovtai
kai kourdizovtai me tis avafores autes kai yparxouv kai kati saxla palia
postings tou Feidia stn lista pou eivai va katouriesai sto gelio me auta
pou grafei.
Kai vai, n omofylofilia ntav "very common in ancient Greece". Av diabaseis
tis sxetikes pnges, 0a to deis kai movn sou. Kai n paiderastia. Oxi giati
to leei o opoiosdnpote sygxrovos istorikos, alla dioti to legave kai apo
movoi tous.
Kai n Ellen Rice (pou eivai BTW Agglida kai e3airetikn istorikos, exei
grapsei kai gia tous Ptolemaiares) stis pnges stnrizetai kai dev exei
grapsei pou0eva oti n omofylofilia ws 0esmos avalogos me tov arxaio eivai
kai sygxrovos ellnvikos 0esmos.
Telos, se symbouleuw dyo pragmata: priv kriveis evav istoriko diabase tis
pnges. Deuterov, diabase ligo Palativn Av0ologia kai dn tnv Stratwvos
Mousav Paidiknv va sou petaxtouv ta matia e3w apo auta pou grafovtai. Kai
auta eivai movov oliga apo ta polla pou yparxouv kai ta polla pou
avakalyptovtai.
Liza
takis karantonis
arketes sobares endei3eis.
paliogay bebaia, giati kai aimostaghs htan kai palioxarakthras.
nobody's perfekt
...akouw thn kuria Kosmetatou na plhsiazei kai kanw sthn panta...
takis
Maria Karra
> Telos, se symbouleuw dyo pragmata: priv kriveis evav istoriko diabase tis
> pnges. Deuterov, diabase ligo Palativn Av0ologia kai dn tnv Stratwvos
> Mousav Paidiknv va sou petaxtouv ta matia e3w apo auta pou grafovtai.
Ti Palativn Avthologia bre Liza, kai ti Stratwvos mousav mou les.... Mas
efage to space physics kai molis pou brnka xrovo va diabasw to bibliaraki tns
Rice. Grafei pavtws mesa gia diafores pnges, legovtas oti kamia ma kamia dev
eivai aksiopistn. Kai ti sygxyzesai esy? Ebrisa tn Rice? Dev tnv ebrisa.
Rwtnsa mnpws epnreastnke ap'tis snmerives amerikavikes apopseis.....
Pavtws poly m'aresav auta pou leei gia tn Makedovia. Na to parw to biblio kai
va to tripsw stn mourn merikwv boulgarwv kai skopiavwv... De sas krybw oti gi
auto to pnra to biblio. To avoiksa sto bibliopwleio, kai molis eida stnv
prwtn selida auta pou egrafe peri Makedovias, to pnra. Nai, ti va kavoume?
Adyvato snmeio....
Maria
> Kai
> auta eivai movov oliga apo ta polla pou yparxouv kai ta polla pou
> avakalyptovtai.
>
> Liza
>
Lamprini Thoma
Loipon, ws orizetai kai apo ton 0eio Platwna, o monos sobaros erws gia enan
arxaio htan aytos meta3y enos neoy, wraioy poy dica gia ma0hsh ki enos
megaloy, wrimoy antra, poy 0elei na dwsei sofia kai na daneistei drosia.
(Poios dialogos htan re paidia poy mas ta leei ola ayta, 0ymaste? 3exasa...
o Faidwn?). O Ale3andros htan ma0hths toy Aristotelh poy htan ma0hths toy
Platwna, ki ektos aytoy gia xronia oloklhra ekane parea mono me fantaroys.
Poly apla, plhn toy Swkrath poy oyte se oloklhro Alkibiadh den ekatse o
atimos (proswpikws gia ton Alkibiadh 0a eixa kanei megales 0ysies:-)), gia
kanena arxaio hmwn progono mhn eisai poly sigoyrh. Giati nomizeis eixan oi
progonoi mas se tosh ektimhsh ta syka?
rL
Elizabeth Kosmetatou
>Elizabeth Kosmetatou wrote:
>
>> Telos, se symbouleuw dyo pragmata: priv kriveis evav istoriko diabase tis
>> pnges. Deuterov, diabase ligo Palativn Av0ologia kai dn tnv Stratwvos
>> Mousav Paidiknv va sou petaxtouv ta matia e3w apo auta pou grafovtai.
>
>Ti Palativn Avthologia bre Liza, kai ti Stratwvos mousav mou les.... Mas
>efage to space physics kai molis pou brnka xrovo va diabasw to bibliaraki tns
>Rice.
Poly kakws! Esy xaveis! Egw perimevw twra pws kai pws va dnmosieutei evas
kaivourios tromeros papyros me syllogn kamias ekatostns poinmatakiwv tou
tritou aiwva p.X., kateu0eiav apo tnv Aigypto. Me pollous Ptolemaious mesa
(xroup! ftou!). 0a tov dnmosieusei malista n kaivouria kalytern mou filn
pou mou esteile n xrysn mou ta teleutaia tns ar0ra snmera me diafora
ptolemaika kaloudia kai tnv euxaristnsa stelvovtas tns ta dika mou attalika
kaloudia. Ekei va deis tsovta pou 0a peftei (sta ptolemaika bebaiws, oxi se
mas pou nmaste n0ikoi)!
Ax! Pote 0a er0ei o Septembrios?
Grafei pavtws mesa gia diafores pnges, legovtas oti kamia ma kamia dev
>eivai aksiopistn.
La0os, a3iolognsn twv pngwv kavei, dev tis 0ewrei oles ava3iopistes.
Ava3iopistos o Ptolemaios (xroup! ftou!)? Evta3ei, ekei pou leei oti
skotwse tous misous ex0rous autos kai tous ypoloipous o Megalekos, evta3ei,
alla leei polla swsta. Ava3iopistos o Arriavos? Ava3iopistos o Ploutarxos?
Na mou peis o Curtius, va pw evta3ei! Am n Vulgate Tradition?
> Kai ti sygxyzesai esy?
Poios sou eipe oti sygxizomai? Autn tn stigmn apolambavw tngavites
patatoules me kokkivisto pou eftia3a mprosta sto computer. Tnv exw
katabrei! Kai meta apo to snmerivo dwraki tns Silvias kai tns gvwrimias mou
me yperoxo Seleukidofilo? Ta kefia mou exw!
Ebrisa tn Rice? Dev tnv ebrisa.
>Rwtnsa mnpws epnreastnke ap'tis snmerives amerikavikes apopseis.....
Poies eivai oi snmerives amerikavikes apopseis? Pavtws o tovos stov opoiov
egrapses to mail mou edeixve oti dev tnv 0ewreis a3iopistn se auta pou leei
kai oti ta 0ewreis astnrikta. Kai tn douleia tns dev tnv 3ereis. Opws ki
egw dev gvwrizw tn douleia twv eidikwv tou space physics. Oute me sfaires
dnladn! Pavtws dev mporei va 0ewrei oles tis pnges tns ava3iopistes ama
stnrizetai se autes.
>Pavtws poly m'aresav auta pou leei gia tn Makedovia. Na to parw to biblio
kai
>va to tripsw stn mourn merikwv boulgarwv kai skopiavwv...
Wx! Ti ka0esai kai asxoleisai me nli0ious? Myalo 0a tous baleis?
De sas krybw oti gi
>auto to pnra to biblio. To avoiksa sto bibliopwleio, kai molis eida stnv
>prwtn selida auta pou egrafe peri Makedovias, to pnra. Nai, ti va kavoume?
>Adyvato snmeio....
Kala ekaves. Kala biblia tns eivai episns n avalysn tns kits pompns tou
Ptolemaiou tou Bou (xroup! Ftou!), ka0ws kai n istoria tou Rodiakou
vautikou (xroup! ftou!: autoi ntav maxairobgaltes ex0roi mas!).
>Maria
>
>
Liza
Nikos Sakellaridis
kairos einai na ksupnhsoume ligo
kai na doume ta pragmata opws einai kai na antilhf8oume
th Biased istoria einai auth pouxame sto gumnasio egw toulaxiston.
Meta briskesai sto arxaiologiko mouseio nai TO mouseio
kai rwtas ekei pou einai ta aggeia pou edeixnan
sorry deixnoun thn seksoualikh praksh
kai sou lene ma den uparxoun tetia pragmata
kai prepei na pas sth Bostwnh na ta deis
Ki akoma ena ti einai auth h sugxronh
snmasia
tou orou?
an sunexize na pinei o Aleksandros (oso epine)
kai den pe8aine 8a pe8aine apo kirrwsh
noso pou allwste eixe perigrapsei o Ippokraths o kwos
(kai nai den mporeis na perigrapseis kati pou den exeis dei)
alla den apokleietai kai na suneisefere to pioto
sto oti pe8ane toso neos
gia thn akribeia an 8umamai kala pe8ane kammia dekaria meres meta ena ksegurismeno
me8usi
kai as mhn ksexname ena ksegurismeno me8usi
mporei na einai kai aitia 8anatou (blepe hazing etc)
Twra h megalomaniakes idees tou Aleksandrou
den apokleietai nanai apotelesmata delirium apo thn
e8istikh ousia auth poulegetai alkoolh.
Nikos
a nai ksexasa kai to allo
den kataktouse (ekpolitize opws px ekane kai sth .. 8hba
6000 lepidi kai oi upoloipoi 8hbaioi sklaboi
mpliaxx plusimo mualou!
Elizabeth Kosmetatou wrote:
> Telos, se symbouleuw dyo pragmata: priv kriveis evav istoriko diabase tis
> pnges. Deuterov, diabase ligo Palativn Av0ologia kai dn tnv Stratwvos
> Mousav Paidiknv va sou petaxtouv ta matia e3w apo auta pou grafovtai. Kai
Elizabeth Kosmetatou
>Kalws th Maria re!
>Loipon, ws orizetai kai apo ton 0eio Platwna, o monos sobaros erws gia enan
>arxaio htan aytos meta3y enos neoy, wraioy poy dica gia ma0hsh ki enos
>megaloy, wrimoy antra, poy 0elei na dwsei sofia kai na daneistei drosia.
>(Poios dialogos htan re paidia poy mas ta leei ola ayta, 0ymaste? 3exasa...
>o Faidwn?).
To Symposio.
O Ale3andros htan ma0hths toy Aristotelh poy htan ma0hths toy
>Platwna, ki ektos aytoy gia xronia oloklhra ekane parea mono me fantaroys.
Episns n mama tou Megalekou sekletizotav ta mala dioti to blastari tns dev
edeixve evdiaferov stis gkomeves pou tou estelve alla ekave parea me ta
arsevika tou filarakia.
>Poly apla, plhn toy Swkrath poy oyte se oloklhro Alkibiadh den ekatse o
>atimos (proswpikws gia ton Alkibiadh 0a eixa kanei megales 0ysies:-)),
Kala, esy mexri kai gia keivo to Byzavtivara, eleges, 0a ekaves megales
0ysies! Egw pote twv potwv! Euripidns kai 3ero pswmi! Ki as eixe kai mousi!
(mpliax!)
gia
>kanena arxaio hmwn progono mhn eisai poly sigoyrh. Giati nomizeis eixan oi
>progonoi mas se tosh ektimhsh ta syka?
Symfwvw kai epau3avw! Episns evas filos mou exei kavei mia sygkritikn
meletn se prwtogoves koivwvies kai exei brei oti n paiderastia 0ewrouvtav
"rite of passage" se polles apo autes kai malista eixe dwsei kai e3ngnsn
peri autou tnv opoia bariemai va steilw.
>rL
>
Liza
ioannis iliopoulos
--------------3B11EACDEEFE87D3E38099DE
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Nikos Sakellaridis wrote:
> Mprabo bre Liza
>
> kairos einai na ksupnhsoume ligo
> kai na doume ta pragmata opws einai kai na antilhf8oume
> th Biased istoria einai auth pouxame sto gumnasio egw toulaxiston.
kai ti na mas lene sto gumnasio re su niko oti o alekos htan loumpina????
edw den mas lene alla kai alla edw kollhsame??
>
>
>
> Nikos
> a nai ksexasa kai to allo
> den kataktouse (ekpolitize opws px ekane kai sth .. 8hba
> 6000 lepidi kai oi upoloipoi 8hbaioi sklaboi
kala tous ekane o alekos. katebhke katw kai oi arbanites katebasan ta swbraka (akous
xristara?) alla
mallon ta katebase ki aytos opote den eixame penetration:-))
yannis
erthe kai teson i seira
>
> mpliaxx plusimo mualou!
>
>
--------------3B11EACDEEFE87D3E38099DE
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
name="ioannis.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for ioannis iliopoulos
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename="ioannis.vcf"
begin:vcard
n:Iliopoulos;Ioannis
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
org:EBI EMBL Outstation;Wellcome Trust Genome Campus Cambridge CB10 1SD UK
adr:;;;;;;
version:2.1
email;internet:ioa...@ebi.ac.uk
title:PhD Ioannis Iliopoulos
note;quoted-printable:Tel. 0044 1223 494638=0D=0Aemail. ioa...@ebi.ac.uk
x-mozilla-cpt:;9336
fn:Ioannis Iliopoulos
end:vcard
--------------3B11EACDEEFE87D3E38099DE--
Lamprini Thoma
>>(Poios dialogos htan re paidia poy mas ta leei ola ayta, 0ymaste?
3exasa...
>>o Faidwn?).
>
>To Symposio.
Oxi, sto Symposio einai o Alkibiadhs. Ston dialogo poy lew den einai (kai
den eimai sigoyrh an einai o Faidwn alla exei onoma andriko-ma0hth, den
einai to symposio). Gia 0ymhsoy bre Lhzaki:-)
L
>
>Liza
>
Maria Karra
Elizabeth Kosmetatou wrote:
> Me pollous Ptolemaious mesa
> (xroup! ftou!).
>
> La0os, a3iolognsn twv pngwv kavei, dev tis 0ewrei oles ava3iopistes.
> Ava3iopistos o Ptolemaios (xroup! ftou!)? Evta3ei, ekei pou leei oti
> skotwse tous misous ex0rous autos kai tous ypoloipous o Megalekos, evta3ei,
> alla leei polla swsta. Ava3iopistos o Arriavos? Ava3iopistos o Ploutarxos?
> Na mou peis o Curtius, va pw evta3ei! Am n Vulgate Tradition?
> dev mporei va 0ewrei oles tis pnges tns ava3iopistes ama
> stnrizetai se autes.
Stnrizetai s'autes giati dev yparxouv alles.
Na kati pou leei stnv eisagwgn (etyxe va exw to biblio mazi mou stn douleia giati
to diabaza to prwi sto subway...):
Arrian states that he based his history on two main eyewitness accounts available
to him: that of Ptolemy (av ftyseis tha se skotwsw), Alexander's boyhood friend
in Macedonia and later a general, and that of a man named Aristoboulos, usually
considered a civil engineer of some kind. We do not know why Arrian chose these
sources nor how good they were. Since other Alexander historians do not use
them, we have no independent evidence for their worth or otherwise. He also
includes various 'stories' or 'tales' about Alexander, the origin of which
remains obscure.
The second important secondary source for Alexander is Diodorus Siculus. [...]
Living so much later, Diodorus was clearly dependent on earlier sources for his
material, but in Book XVII he does not identify them. [...] Diodirus's account
has similarities to other histories of Alexander, and together these works are
known as the 'vulgate tradition', characterised by a colourful, rhetorical, and
less critical narrative.
Oso gia tov Ploutarxo, dev tov thewrei avaksiopisto, alla ap'tnv alln meria dev
tov xrnsimopoiei ws pngn. Auto giati o Ploutarxos "wrote 'lives' not
'histories'". Sto telos petaei ki eva "The historical worth of Plutarch's mostly
uncorroborated information is,however, quite another question".
Gevika mesa sto biblio leei syxva oti dev mporoume va eimaste sigouroi gia tis
pnges.
Autaaaa.
Maria
Nikos Sakellaridis
> Mwre exouv kai stis apo0nkes dioti kavouv pavta epilogn gia tnv ek0esn. Kai
> vai, dev mporouv va bazouv tis tsovtes pavta.
nai
alla sto mouseio den exei pote!
> P.x. sto Loubro yparxouv kati
> kaloudia pou ta blepeis movo se apo0nkn av eisai arxaiologos kai asxoleisai
> me tetoia. Opws egw p.x. :-))))))))
>
> Kai dev 3eroume kai se ti katastasn ntav kiolas to snkwti tou otav pe0ave.
>
> >gia thn akribeia an 8umamai kala pe8ane kammia dekaria meres meta ena
> ksegurismeno
> >me8usi
>
> Swsta 0ymasai.
>
> >kai as mhn ksexname ena ksegurismeno me8usi
> >mporei na einai kai aitia 8anatou (blepe hazing etc)
>
> Evvoeis dnlntnriasn apo to alkool?
>
kata kapio tropo nai
alla pare paradeigma ton Jim Morisson pou pe8ane epishs neos apo ton idio logo:
mporeis na pe8aneis
1.apo okeoia dhlhthriash px ta hazing sta kollegia
2. liver filure (morison px)
3. combination
ena shkwti pou exei arxisei na mhn einai eparkes kai ksafnika
apenanti se mia megalh dosh ths toksinhs ta paradidei
(mallon o Aleksandros)
Nikos
Elizabeth Kosmetatou
>> dev mporei va 0ewrei oles tis pnges tns ava3iopistes ama
>> stnrizetai se autes.
>
>Stnrizetai s'autes giati dev yparxouv alles.
>Na kati pou leei stnv eisagwgn (etyxe va exw to biblio mazi mou stn
douleia giati
>to diabaza to prwi sto subway...):
Nai, alla dev tis 0ewrei ava3iopistes. Blepe parakatw:
>Arrian states that he based his history on two main eyewitness accounts
available
>to him: that of Ptolemy (av ftyseis tha se skotwsw),
Xroup! Ftou! Sixaivomai tous Ptolemaious! Xtes diabaza biblio me tis
se3oualikes avwmalies tous! Tis kollnsave malista kai stous Seleukides!
Kamia mera 0a sas steilw merikes va sas avakatepsw!
Alexander's boyhood friend
>in Macedonia and later a general, and that of a man named Aristoboulos,
usually
>considered a civil engineer of some kind. We do not know why Arrian chose
these
>sources nor how good they were.
Dev exei movo autes tis pnges omws. To oti dev gvwrizoume poso kales eivai
ofeiletai fysika sto gegovos oti:
1) Dev sw0nkav para movo se apospasmata.
2) Tous 3eroume da tous Ptolemaious ti propagavdistes gkaimpeliskoi ntave!
3) Dev exei sw0ei dystyxws o Kallis0evns pou ntav o episnmos istorikos. As
opsovtai oi Xristiavares.
4) Dev exouv sw0ei oi Efnmerides (istoriko ergo, dev avaferomai se nmernsio
typo pou dev ypnrxe tote).
5) Gevika dev exouv sw0ei oles oi pnges. As opsovtai oi Xristiavares (w re
kai sas etoimazw KAI tnv arxaiologikn martyria!)
Since other Alexander historians do not use
>them,
Dev leve toulaxistov oti tis xrnsimopoiouve dioti dev avaferouv tis pnges
tous opws o Arriavos. Mporei va tis xrnsimopoiouve, mporei oxi.
we have no independent evidence for their worth or otherwise. He also
>includes various 'stories' or 'tales' about Alexander, the origin of which
>remains obscure.
Auto dev snmaivei oti dev eivai a3iopistes. Snmaivei oti kratame kai mia
pisivn. Kai fysika proseuxomaste va briskovtai epigrafes pou va
epibebaiwvouv tis pnges. Kai kavevas papyros kaivourios.
>The second important secondary source for Alexander is Diodorus Siculus.
[...]
>Living so much later, Diodorus was clearly dependent on earlier sources
for his
>material, but in Book XVII he does not identify them.
Dystyxws. Blepe parapavw.
[...] Diodirus's account
>has similarities to other histories of Alexander, and together these works
are
>known as the 'vulgate tradition', characterised by a colourful,
rhetorical, and
>less critical narrative.
Kala, me tn Vulgate Tradition givetai xamos.
>Oso gia tov Ploutarxo, dev tov thewrei avaksiopisto, alla ap'tnv alln
meria dev
>tov xrnsimopoiei ws pngn. Auto giati o Ploutarxos "wrote 'lives' not
>'histories'". Sto telos petaei ki eva "The historical worth of Plutarch's
mostly
>uncorroborated information is,however, quite another question".
Fysika dev eivai prwtn pngn. Eivai omws sigoura secondary source dioti ki
ekeivos basistnke se pnges. Yparxouv problnmata.
>
>Gevika mesa sto biblio leei syxva oti dev mporoume va eimaste sigouroi gia
tis
>pnges.
Pote dev mporoume va eimaste sigouroi gia tis pnges. Afou dev bre0nkav. As
opsovtai oi Xristiavares.
>Autaaaa.
>Maria
>
Liza
Elizabeth Kosmetatou
Ploutarxou apo to ergo tou "H0ika", me titlo "Erwtikos". Exei kyklofornsei
sta vea ellnvika apo tis ekdoseis Gvwsn se poly kaln metafrasn kai me
sxolia. 0ema tou eivai n a3iolognsn tou erwta: ti eivai avwtero dnladn o
omofylofilos n o eterofylofilos erwtas. Exei poly evdiaferov dioti o
Ploutarxos eivai o prwtos, ap' o,ti 3erw, syggrafeas pou tassetai avoixta
yper tou eterofylofilou erwta.
H ypo0esn exei ws e3ns: O Ploutarxos otav ntav veos erwteutnke mia kopela
coup de foudre, to idio kai autn. Oi goveis tous strivtzw0nkav kai dev
n0elav va tous afnsouv va pavtreutouve, opote kleftnkave, pavtreutnkav kai
pngave gia mnva tou melitos stous Delfous. Ekei syvavtnsav diaforous filous
tou Ploutarxou kai eixe givei eva mpougio. Apo ta plousiotera atoma tns
polns ntav mia vea gyvaika, xnra, n Ismnvodwra pou meta apo paraklnsn filns
tns avelabe va brei sto vearo gio (tns filns tns) katallnln vyfn. O vearos
ntav efnbos akoma, ara katw apo 18. Sto telos omws tnv pswvise n Ismnvodwra
me to vearo kai tov zntnse se gamo. Ekei epesav oloi oi gkomevoi tou
vearou, n toulaxistov oi evdiaferomevoi gia to vearo, kai tov apetrepsav
gia profaveis logous. O Ploutarxos taxtnke me to meros tns Ismnvodwras
dioti ntav kai a3ioprepns kai wraia kai plousia kai vea kai gevika pisteue
oti o gamos 0a ntave petyxnmevos. Egive n sxetikn syzntnsn, stn mesn tns
opoias ma0eutnke oti n Ismnvodwra eide kai apoeide kai ebale dikous tns va
apagagouve to vearo kai va tov ferouve sto spiti tns, opou tov vtysave me
to zori gampro kai ebale mprosta to gamo. Sto telos o typos apofasise va
dei to symferov tou kai tnv pnre meta xaras tou, oi diaforoi pou tov
kyalarizav skasave apo to kako tous kai o Ploutarxos bgnke kai apo pavw.
A vai, kai o gamos tou Ploutarxou me tnv kopela pou boutn3e para tn 0elnsn
twv goviwv tous ntav para poly petyxnmevos kai malista swzetai kai meros
tns allnlografias tous.
Liza
Sophia
Nikos Sakellaridis wrote:
> kairos einai na ksupnhsoume ligo
> kai na doume ta pragmata opws einai kai na antilhf8oume
> th Biased istoria einai auth pouxame sto gumnasio egw toulaxiston.
Mexri edw kala.
>
> Meta briskesai sto arxaiologiko mouseio nai TO mouseio
> kai rwtas ekei pou einai ta aggeia pou edeixnan
> sorry deixnoun thn seksoualikh praksh
> kai sou lene ma den uparxoun tetia pragmata
> kai prepei na pas sth Bostwnh na ta deis
Auto pou kollaei me to parapavw; Dnladn oi dikoi mas sto arxaiologiko
mouseio ta esteilav stous Bostwvezous ta aggeia giait emeis
eimastesemvoi, ki oi Bostwvezoi dev eivai;
>
> Ki akoma ena ti einai auth h sugxronh snmasia tou orou?
Mallov auto pou eipe n Liza: oti afou dev tov exei dei kavevas sugxrovos
kai dev exoume medical report tou proswpikou tou giatrou, leme oti
mporei va ntav alkoolikos.
> an sunexize na pinei o Aleksandros (oso epine)
> kai den pe8aine 8a pe8aine apo kirrwsh
Aporia: etsipou pivouv oi Aggloi edw pera, logika 0aprpeei va pe0aivouv
oloi apo kirrwsn kai se vearn sxetika nlikia. Evtoutois, ta pivouve
mexri andias ka0e paraskeuosabatokuriako kai mexri avonsias tis
ka0nmerves ki oloi zwvtavoi kai (faivomevika) ugieius eivai. Zouve kai
70- xrovia kata meso oro. Giati;
--
###### ### ### # ### # ___
# # # # # # # # # # <*,->
# # # # # # # # # # [`-'] H ev tn pura elaiov riptousa
### ### ### ## ### # -"-"-
#
#
Elizabeth Kosmetatou
>
>Mprabo bre Liza
>
>kai na doume ta pragmata opws einai kai na antilhf8oume
>th Biased istoria einai auth pouxame sto gumnasio egw toulaxiston.
>
>kai rwtas ekei pou einai ta aggeia pou edeixnan
>sorry deixnoun thn seksoualikh praksh
>kai sou lene ma den uparxoun tetia pragmata
>kai prepei na pas sth Bostwnh na ta deis
Mwre exouv kai stis apo0nkes dioti kavouv pavta epilogn gia tnv ek0esn. Kai
vai, dev mporouv va bazouv tis tsovtes pavta. P.x. sto Loubro yparxouv kati
kaloudia pou ta blepeis movo se apo0nkn av eisai arxaiologos kai asxoleisai
me tetoia. Opws egw p.x. :-))))))))
>
>Ki akoma ena ti einai auth h sugxronh
>snmasia
>tou orou?
>an sunexize na pinei o Aleksandros (oso epine)
>kai den pe8aine 8a pe8aine apo kirrwsh
Opws o gios tou Lykwva, evos apo tous katngorous tou Swkratn pou vomizw
kapoios arxaios (o 3evofwvtas?) perigrafei tnv arrwsteia tou kai tnv
apodidei sto poly krasi.
>noso pou allwste eixe perigrapsei o Ippokraths o kwos
>(kai nai den mporeis na perigrapseis kati pou den exeis dei)
Gi' auto kai tnv n3ere kai o 3evofwvtas.
>
>alla den apokleietai kai na suneisefere to pioto
>sto oti pe8ane toso neos
Kai dev 3eroume kai se ti katastasn ntav kiolas to snkwti tou otav pe0ave.
>gia thn akribeia an 8umamai kala pe8ane kammia dekaria meres meta ena
ksegurismeno
>me8usi
Swsta 0ymasai.
>kai as mhn ksexname ena ksegurismeno me8usi
>mporei na einai kai aitia 8anatou (blepe hazing etc)
Evvoeis dnlntnriasn apo to alkool?
>Twra h megalomaniakes idees tou Aleksandrou
>den apokleietai nanai apotelesmata delirium apo thn
>e8istikh ousia auth poulegetai alkoolh.
Nai, kati blakes pngave va e3ngnsouv tn sfagn twv Didymaiwv (pou tov
kaloswrisav kiolas, oute kav avtista0nkav), stov araio, leei, aera tou
ypsnlou ypsometrou!!!!!
>
>Nikos
>a nai ksexasa kai to allo
>den kataktouse (ekpolitize opws px ekane kai sth .. 8hba
>6000 lepidi kai oi upoloipoi 8hbaioi sklaboi
>mpliaxx plusimo mualou!
Kala, va eblepes ti kataktnsn ekave stnv Pisidia. Kai pws tov mimouvtav oi
Diadoxoi tou. Pervagave, legave stov kosmo "sas kataktoume" kai av o kosmos
ntav e3ypvos tous elege "kalaaaaaaaaa! pou va trexeis twra?". Kai syvexize
va autodioikeitai kai polles fores dev plnrwve kav forous. Av elegav "oxi
re!", opws kavave oi Sagalassiavoi, trwgave mia fapa. Basika katektnse
stratngikes 0eseis movo. Kai me tous Diadoxous kai tous Epigovous egive O
axtarmas.
Liza
Nikos Sakellaridis
> Nikos Sakellaridis wrote:
>
> > Mprabo bre Liza
> >
> > kairos einai na ksupnhsoume ligo
> > kai na doume ta pragmata opws einai kai na antilhf8oume
> > th Biased istoria einai auth pouxame sto gumnasio egw toulaxiston.
>
> kai ti na mas lene sto gumnasio
Polu apla
Giannh mas:
thn alh8eia. (<-----teleia)
> re su niko oti o alekos htan loumpina????
> edw den mas lene alla kai alla edw kollhsame??
>
Se para polla exoume kollhsei
apo ta opoia ena einai ki auto
Nikos
Nikos Sakellaridis
> Niko, dev avtilambavomai to akolou0o pou grafeis:
>
> Nikos Sakellaridis wrote:
> > kairos einai na ksupnhsoume ligo
> > kai na doume ta pragmata opws einai kai na antilhf8oume
> > th Biased istoria einai auth pouxame sto gumnasio egw toulaxiston.
> Mexri edw kala.
> >
> > Meta briskesai sto arxaiologiko mouseio nai TO mouseio
> > kai rwtas ekei pou einai ta aggeia pou edeixnan
> > sorry deixnoun thn seksoualikh praksh
> > kai sou lene ma den uparxoun tetia pragmata
> > kai prepei na pas sth Bostwnh na ta deis
> Auto pou kollaei me to parapavw; Dnladn oi dikoi mas sto arxaiologiko
> mouseio ta esteilav stous Bostwvezous ta aggeia giait emeis
> eimastesemvoi, ki oi Bostwvezoi dev eivai;
Sto Mouseio sthn A8hna DEN ek8etoun ta aggeia
me seksoualikes
parastaseis.
Sth Bostwnh den kserw pou ta brhkan.
>
>
> Aporia: etsipou pivouv oi Aggloi edw pera, logika 0aprpeei va pe0aivouv
> oloi apo kirrwsn kai se vearn sxetika nlikia. Evtoutois, ta pivouve
> mexri andias ka0e paraskeuosabatokuriako kai mexri avonsias tis
> ka0nmerves ki oloi zwvtavoi kai (faivomevika) ugieius eivai. Zouve kai
> 70- xrovia kata meso oro. Giati;
h eukolh apanthsh
einai genetics.
Apo thn allh meria; exoun terastio problhma me tis diafores alkoolikes nosous
h mallon tis anosous pou einai apotelesma xrhshs ths alkoolhs
Kai opws 8a deis o mesos oros zwhs twn Ellhnwn
8a ephreastei apo thn aukshmenh katanalkwsh alkool
pou parathreitai teleutaia.
Nikos
Elizabeth Kosmetatou
>> kai rwtas ekei pou einai ta aggeia pou edeixnan
>> sorry deixnoun thn seksoualikh praksh
>> kai sou lene ma den uparxoun tetia pragmata
>> kai prepei na pas sth Bostwnh na ta deis
>Auto pou kollaei me to parapavw; Dnladn oi dikoi mas sto arxaiologiko
>mouseio ta esteilav stous Bostwvezous ta aggeia giait emeis
>eimastesemvoi, ki oi Bostwvezoi dev eivai;
Oxi, snmaivei oti oi Bostwvezoi ta deixvouve kai emeis oxi. Twra va pw tnv
aln0eia, dev exw idea ti exei to arxaiologiko A0nvwv stis apo0nkes tou
dioti dev exw koita3ei to Corpus Vasorum Antiquorum. Kai to afierwma tns
Arxaiologias to pndnma stnv arxaiotnta to exw stnv A0nva.
>> an sunexize na pinei o Aleksandros (oso epine)
>> kai den pe8aine 8a pe8aine apo kirrwsh
>Aporia: etsipou pivouv oi Aggloi edw pera, logika 0aprpeei va pe0aivouv
>oloi apo kirrwsn kai se vearn sxetika nlikia. Evtoutois, ta pivouve
>mexri andias ka0e paraskeuosabatokuriako kai mexri avonsias tis
>ka0nmerves ki oloi zwvtavoi kai (faivomevika) ugieius eivai. Zouve kai
>70- xrovia kata meso oro. Giati;
Ma dev vomizw oti pivouv toso poly oloi. Episns se arketa atoma o
alkoolismos exw akousei oti eivai xrovia arrwsteia pou dev tous 3epastreuei
amesws kai kamia fora dev tous 3epastreuei kai ka0olou. Polloi eivai
evta3ei movov otav pivouv. Evas syvadelfos mou p.x. pou eivai alkoolikos
edw kai xrovia kai dev tov blepw kala grafei kala movov otav pivei. Etsi
leei. Ev tw meta3y dev pisteua oti 0a teleiwsei to didaktoriko tou pote,
oute oti 0a dnmosieusei tipota. Exw va tov dw polla xrovia, xtes omws
diabaza mia bibliokrisia gia to biblio pou ebgale kai pou basizetai sto
didaktoriko tou kai leve oti eivai kataplnktiko. Epesa 3ern apo tnv ekpln3n
dioti tov eblepa ka0nmeriva otav tnv egrafe (moirazomaste to spiti eva
feggari).
>
>
Liza
Elizabeth Kosmetatou
Bre eivai to Symposio! Stnv arxn, ekei pou milaei o Pausavias pou exei
gkomevo tov Aga0wva pou viknse stov tragiko agwva kai edwse to symposio.
Milaei gia tov avtriko erwta. Meta mpaivei o Aristofavns kai dingeitai tn
fasn me tous ermafroditous kai telos mpaivei o Swkratns me to favtastiko
mallov dialogo tou me tn Diotima.
Episns avafora (syvtomn omws) stn sxesn Pausavia-Aga0wva yparxei stov
Prwtagora. Dev asxoleitai omws me erwtika. O Faidwv eivai o dialogos "Peri
psyxns" kai avaferei tis teleutaies stigmes tou Swkratn. Mnpws evvoeis to
Faidro n peri ndovns?
Liza
>
>>
>>Liza
>>
>
Maria Karra
polla traumata. Kata tn Rice pali, apo thauma swthnke 3 fores. Eidika eva trauma
pou ypestn sto stnthos tov afnse sto krebbati gia meres. Ola auta ta traumata tou
adyvatisav tov orgavismo. E, bale kai to pioto...
De vomizw oti ta methysia pou avafereis Sofia mporouv va sygkrithouv me tou
Alekou. O Alekos pavw sto methysi skotwse to kollntari tou tov Kleito. Ta
methysia tou sabbatokyriakou de se odngouv stnv trella.
Maria
Nikos Sakellaridis wrote:
> > Kai dev 3eroume kai se ti katastasn ntav kiolas to snkwti tou otav pe0ave.
> >
> > >gia thn akribeia an 8umamai kala pe8ane kammia dekaria meres meta ena
> > ksegurismeno
> > >me8usi
> >
> >
> > >kai as mhn ksexname ena ksegurismeno me8usi
> > >mporei na einai kai aitia 8anatou (blepe hazing etc)
>
>
> Nikos
Lamprini Thoma
rL
Christos Papadas
Ellada. E0ewreito omws episnmws vai n oxi n0ika
kolasimn n omofulofilia? Mou eixe pei palia n Liza
oti dev upnrxe vomo0esia kata twv poustndwv
alla apo tnv alln o Daulos me ar0ro kapoiou filologou
polu palia, parousiaze katebata deixvovtas pws
arxaies poleis kai vomo0esies kuvngousave
tous poustndes kai tou kolomparades fusika.
O Ava3imevns pws tous eixe paei sta dikastnria?
Dev eixe basistei se vomous n parousiase dikous tou
isxurismous? Gvwrizoume oti n le3n erastns snmaive
kai filos, rixte kapoio apo ta katebata gia tov Ale3avdro
edw mesa va doume se ti context grafovtai apo tous
arxaious oi plnrofories autes. Brnke kai o tourkosporos
o Giavvakns twra eukairia va koroideyei tous arbavites.
Isa kameve.....
Kitsos
Christos Papadas
alla katebaze omws kai apospasmata arxaiwv pngwv.
Tov diabazei evas filos mou pou didaskei edw sto
allo pavepostnmio tns B. lravdias (U of Ulster) kai 0a
tou pw va to brei kai va mou to dwsei, isws tote givw
kai egw pio safns mias kai dev exw asxoln0ei idiaitera
me to 0ema poustndwv-kolomparadwv kai dev exw dei
bebaia oute tis pnges pou me parapempeis. 0a
sou pw alln wra ti brnka loipov, mias kai autoi divouv
teleiws diaforetikn eikova kai 0a0ela va 3erw aprokatalnpta
av exouve kapoio kuros n oxi.
Yparxouve erwtika keimeva me sxolia gia alles
ratses? Arapives, klp px..
Kitsos
-----Original Message-----
From: Elizabeth Kosmetatou <elizabeth....@arts.kuleuven.ac.be>
To: Christos Papadas <Kit...@LEHEON.FREESERVE.CO.UK>; HEL...@LISTS.PSU.EDU
<HEL...@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Date: 17 April 2000 16:10
Subject: Re: Megas Aleksavdros (gay or not gay...)
>Loipov, gia ta peri omofylofilias stnv arxaia Ellada kai tn Rwmn ta leei
>para poly wraia kai mesa apo tis pnges n Eva Cantarella pou exei grapsei
>kai to pio prosfato biblio pavw sto 0ema me titlo Bisexuality in the
>Ancient World, New Haven, 1992. Eivai eukolo va to brei kaveis kai
>pragmatika a3izei va to diabasete. O Daulos profavws pnre pragmata out of
>context, opws syvn0izei, kai ta prosarmose opws n0ele wste va bgalei to
>symperasma pou n0ele. Fysika ta pragmata eivai poly diaforetika.
>
>Liza
>
>
Elizabeth Kosmetatou
>Kala o Daulos suxva trabaei pramata apo ta mallia,
>alla katebaze omws kai apospasmata arxaiwv pngwv.
Xrnsto, to idio akribws kavei kai o Bernal, 3ereis ekeivos tns maurns
A0nvas. Katebazei apospasmata arxaiwv pngwv kai ta diastreblwvei.
>Tov diabazei evas filos mou pou didaskei edw sto
>allo pavepostnmio tns B. lravdias (U of Ulster) kai 0a
>tou pw va to brei kai va mou to dwsei, isws tote givw
>kai egw pio safns mias kai dev exw asxoln0ei idiaitera
>me to 0ema poustndwv-kolomparadwv kai dev exw dei
>bebaia oute tis pnges pou me parapempeis. 0a
>sou pw alln wra ti brnka loipov, mias kai autoi divouv
>teleiws diaforetikn eikova kai 0a0ela va 3erw aprokatalnpta
>av exouve kapoio kuros n oxi.
Diabase tote Cantarella, oxi Daulo. H sygkekrimevn istorikos dev eivai
prokateilnmmevn, oute exei kapoio symferov va parousiasei ta pragmata kata
tov alfa n bnta tropo. Tis pnges xrnsimopoiei. Diabaste loipov Cantarella
kai mnv xavete xrovo me tis blakeies tou Daulou.
>
>Yparxouve erwtika keimeva me sxolia gia alles
>ratses? Arapives, klp px..
Oriste?
>
>Kitsos
>
Liza
Christos Papadas
arxaia Ellada, aplws epeidn kapoies apo tis pnges tou
Daulou edivav diaforetikn eikova ws pros tnv apodoxn tns,
e0i3a to 0ema. Egw otav to brw to keimevo, dev 0a sas
spasw t;araxidia me ta sumperasmata tou Daulou. 0a
dw ti parousiazei arxaies pnges va leve, kai av exei la0os
n eivai out of context auto 0elw va mou peis, dev
tov ebgala pio egkuro apo tis pnges pou avafereis.
Dev exw gvwsn ep'autou gia kati tetoio allwste.
Kitsos
-----Original Message-----
From: Elizabeth Kosmetatou <elizabeth....@arts.kuleuven.ac.be>
To: Christos Papadas <Kit...@leheon.freeserve.co.uk>; HEL...@LISTS.PSU.EDU
<HEL...@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Date: 17 April 2000 16:30
Subject: Re: Megas Aleksavdros (gay or not gay...)
Elizabeth Kosmetatou
Yiannis Nicolis
>Re paidia dev 3erw posoi nsave poustrovia stnv arxaia
>Ellada. E0ewreito omws episnmws vai n oxi n0ika
>kolasimn n omofulofilia? Mou eixe pei palia n Liza
>oti dev upnrxe vomo0esia kata twv poustndwv
>alla apo tnv alln o Daulos me ar0ro kapoiou filologou
>polu palia, parousiaze katebata deixvovtas pws
>arxaies poleis kai vomo0esies kuvngousave
>tous poustndes kai tou kolomparades fusika.
Katse mnpws prolabw priv apavtnsei n Liza :-)
Av 0umamai kala, n omofullofilia meta3u evvnlikou kai efnbou ntav sta
plaisia tns "ekpaideusns" kai polu diadedomevn. Avti0eta me tnv
evnlikiwsn o avtras eprepe va evdiaferetai movo gia guvaikes n gia
efnbous. Nomizw n omofullofilia meta3u evnlikwv ntav katakritea.
Liza, apo pote xrovologeitai n le3n kuvaidos;
Yiannis
Elizabeth Kosmetatou
>Ma dev amfiballw gia tnv upar3n tns omofulofilias stnv
>arxaia Ellada, aplws epeidn kapoies apo tis pnges tou
>Daulou edivav diaforetikn eikova ws pros tnv apodoxn tns,
>e0i3a to 0ema. Egw otav to brw to keimevo, dev 0a sas
>spasw t;araxidia me ta sumperasmata tou Daulou. 0a
>dw ti parousiazei arxaies pnges va leve, kai av exei la0os
>n eivai out of context auto 0elw va mou peis, dev
>tov ebgala pio egkuro apo tis pnges pou avafereis.
>Dev exw gvwsn ep'autou gia kati tetoio allwste.
Re Xrnsto, asta ta apospasmata apo to Daulo dioti dev prokeitai va katsw va
psaxvw tous arxaious syggrafeis va koitazw ti diastreblwse, ti boutn3e out
of context kai ti metefrase la0os. Kalytera pare to biblio pou sou systnsa
pou meleta tis pnges apo tnv arxn, oles tous kai meleta e3eliktika kai kata
perifereia to faivomevo. Astov to Daulo teleiws. Pnges BTW dev eivai movov
oi arxaioi syggrafeis alla kai arxaiologika eurnmata (p.x. aggeia,
agalmata, klp.), opws kai epigrafes. Gegovos eivai oti oti dev prokeitai
aplws gia "ypar3n" omofylofilias, alla gia koivwviko kai politismiko
faivomevo. Eivai dyvatov kiolas va dexesai eva keimevo pou sou petaei o
Daulos otav yparxouv poly diasnma keimeva opws tou Platwva pou avefere n
Lamprivn n tou Ploutarxou pou avefera egw?
>
>Kitsos
>
Liza
Elizabeth Kosmetatou
To va pngaivei kaveis peristasiaka ws evnlikos me evnlikous dev 0ewrouvtav
kako. P.x. dev ntav katakritea n peristasiakn sxesn tou Euripidn me tov
pointn Aga0wva (pou ntav omofylofilos kai dev evdiaferotav ka0olou gia
gyvaikes) meta tnv evnlikiwsn tou teleutaiou. Eav omws eixav apokleistikn
sxesn 0a ntav katakritea, gi' auto kai epefte megaln koroidia gia tov
Aga0wva pou pngaive movo me avtres kai ntav kai trabesti (blepe
0esmoforiazouses tou Aristofavn). Avti0eta n sxeseis tou Sofokln me diafora
paidakia dev ntav katakritees alla tis epaivousav. Ekeivo pou 0ewrouvtav
kako ntav n avtrikn porveia kai mporouse ovtws kaveis va kavei agwgn kata
evos "porvou", autepaggeltn diw3n dev givotav omws.
O oros "kivaidos" syvavtatai prwtn fora tov 7o aiwva p.X. kai snmaivei tov
"pa0ntiko omofylofilo" kai kata syvepeia ekeivov pou eixe apokleistikes
sxeseis me avtres. Kai vai, auto ntav katakriteo.
H paradosn autn kai oi sxetikoi vomoi ava tnv Ellada pou strefovtav kata
twv "kivaidwv" (oxi omws pavtou) dev prepei va tnrouvtav sxolastika kai
mallov epeftav se axrnsteia dioti n avtrikn porveia ypnrxe kai avaferetai.
Syvn0ws loipov arkouvtav se megales plakes. H omofylofilia avaferetai oti
dnmiourgnse megalo problnma tnv epoxn tou Solwva otav merikoi protimousav
sxeseis me avtres apo to va to kavouv me tn gyvaika tous, opote o Solwv
perase vomo pou tous ypoxrewve va pngaivouv me tn gyvaika tous toulaxistov
treis fores to mnva wste va kavouv kai kaveva paidi. 0a mou peite, pws tov
efarmoze. E, mallov epafiovtav stov patriwtismo kai tn vomimofrosyvn tou
ka0e A0nvaiou.
Telika isxye dnladn to e3ns:
1) To va pngaivei evas evnlikos me paidakia dev ntav katakriteo, avti0eta
ntav koivwvikn tou ypoxrewsn kai oles oi sxetikes pnges symfwvouv me auto.
2) To va pngaivei evnlikos me evnliko apo kairo se kairo (blepe p.x. tis
ore3eis tou Alkibiadn pros to Swkratn -dev ntav efnbos tote sto Symposio- n
tou Euripidn pros tov arti evnlikiw0evta Aga0wva) dev 0ewrouvtav kako.
Avti0eta eixe plaka pou kai pou, arkei va tnrouvtav to metro.
3) Av evas evnlikos eixe apokleistikn sxesn me evnliko 3ekivage n koroidia,
n opoia omws eixe ws stoxo tns tov pa0ntiko omofylofilo pou legotav
"kivaidos". Oxi autov pou tov pndouse.
4) H avtrikn porveia ntav katakritea kai malista ypnrxav kai vomoi pou
0ewrntika ntav austnroi, dev tnrouvtav omws kai toso dioti dev eprokeito o
allos va xoloskasei va trexei va kavei agwgn kata kapoiou gia porveia.
Aplws ka0otav kai eskage sta gelia ki auto ntav olo. Blepe p.x. diafores
istories peri Sofokln me diaforous "porvous" OXI omws tis istories tou
Sofokln me paidakia dioti autes ypagovtai stnv periptwsn voumero 1 parapavw.
Auta eivai ta dedomeva, symfwvouv oles oi pnges kai oso va xtypn0ei katw o
Daulos etsi exouv ta pragmata, apokleietai va kavoume la0os kai kamia pngn
pou para0etei dev avtibaivei sta parapavw.
Profavws yparxouv apokliseis kata perifereia, dev allazouv omws tn gevikn
eikova, kai poly diaforetika pragmata isxyav gia tous Rwmaious.
Telos 0a tnv 3avadwsw tn symbouln: afnste to Daulo kai piaste tnv
Cantarella. Kako o Daulos. Ftou kaka!
Liza
>
>Yiannis
>
Tranos Nektarios
> 1) To va pngaivei evas evnlikos me paidakia dev ntav katakriteo, avti0eta
> ntav koivwvikn tou ypoxrewsn kai oles oi sxetikes pnges symfwvouv me auto.
>
To an ta paidakia htan agorakia .h. koritsakia eixe shmasia ????
PS. Eixa akousei gia tous arxaious alla shmera tha karaflianw !
Sophia
>
> Sto Mouseio sthn A8hna DEN ek8etoun ta aggeia
> me seksoualikes
> parastaseis.
> Sth Bostwnh den kserw pou ta brhkan.
kaiakti ek0etouv, giati exw akousei diaforous 3evous pou exiouv paei
ekei poso kollnsav se kati agalmatakia klp klp (kai n0ela va tous
skotwsw giati oloklnro mouseio kai movo auta tous emeivav)
>
> Kai opws 8a deis o mesos oros zwhs twn Ellhnwn
> 8a ephreastei apo thn aukshmenh katanalkwsh alkool
> pou parathreitai teleutaia.
efarmozovtai sto stul "0a paw stov 3aderfo stnv troxaia va mou to
sbusouv". Gia va mnv pws gia tis sxetikes diafnmistikes ekstrateies, pou
se sxesn me kati australezikes pou mas eixav dei3ei edw kapote, eivai
polu polu polu npies.
Elizabeth Kosmetatou
Agorakia fysika! Stn Spartn eixe kai avtistoixn parallagn gia koritsakia
pou pngaivave me kyries kapoias nlikias gia logous ekpaideusns. A vai, kai
stn Lesbo.
Giati 0a karafliaseis? Gvwsta eivai auta.
Liza
Tranos Nektarios
Nomiza oti ayta ta ekanan mono kapoies prwsopikothtes alla oxi kai olos
o plhthysmos !
Ti na pei kaneis ....
Elizabeth Kosmetatou
>> Agorakia fysika! Stn Spartn eixe kai avtistoixn parallagn gia koritsakia
>> pou pngaivave me kyries kapoias nlikias gia logous ekpaideusns. A vai, kai
>> stn Lesbo.
>>
>> Giati 0a karafliaseis? Gvwsta eivai auta.
>>
>> Liza
>>
>
>Nomiza oti ayta ta ekanan mono kapoies prwsopikothtes alla oxi kai olos
>o plhthysmos !
>Ti na pei kaneis ....
Giati? Oi proswpikotntes dev eixav parapavw provomia apo tous ypoloipous.
Exw episns va paratnrnsw kati. Proswpika avtipa0w para poly tnv
paiderasteia kai exw tn gvwmn oti stnv Ellada exoume poly megaln ypokrisia
peri autns, evw n vomo0esia mas eivai apo ellipns ews aisxrn. Auto 0a
eprepe va se sokarei, to oti dnladn mporeis va apoplavnseis dekaxrovo
koritsaki kai va mnv pas fylakn av to pavtreuteis, efosov oi ypokrites
semvotyfoi goveis tou sas ypoxrewsouv kai seva kai auto va to pavtreuteis.
Gvwrizw tetoies periptwseis, opws exw akousei kai periptwseis govewv stnv
eparxia pou ousiastika "poulnsave" tnv korn tous se evnliko gia va bgalouve
lefta kai dev tous boutn3e o vomos va tous xwsei mesa. Stnv periptwsn autn
o biasmos tou avnlikou (dioti biasmos eivai) dev eivai pia biasmos symfwva
me tn blakwdn ellnvikn vomo0esia, evw 3avagivetai biasmos av meta apo
triavta xrovia xalasei o gamos sou kai xwrisete me to prwnv koritsaki. Kala
0a kavame loipov va allazame tov aisxro auto vomo prwta avti va xtypiomaste
gia tous arxaious.
Twra gia tous arxaious, auta pia avnkouv stn meletn tns istorias kai otav
meleta kaveis istoria prepei va paramevei ametoxos syvais0nmatika kai va
meleta ta faivomeva ws faivomeva xwris va pairvei 0esn. Dev eivai douleia
tou istorikou va parei 0esn, ase dnladn pou kai va parei kaveis 0esn to
kavei out of context. H paiderasteia ntav eva faivomevo pou eixe emfavistei
gia kapoious koivwvikous kyriws logous. Kai ws tetoio meletatai, mesa sto
context twv n0wv tns epoxns ekeivns kai oxi tns dikns mas epoxns.
>
Liza
takis karantonis
>
> Nikos Sakellaridis wrote:
> >
> > Sto Mouseio sthn A8hna DEN ek8etoun ta aggeia
> > me seksoualikes
> > parastaseis.
> > Sth Bostwnh den kserw pou ta brhkan.
> Mnpws giati stnv A0nva exouv toooooosa alla va ek0esouv; Epipleov, olo
> kaiakti ek0etouv, giati exw akousei diaforous 3evous pou exiouv paei
> ekei poso kollnsav se kati agalmatakia klp klp (kai n0ela va tous
> skotwsw giati oloklnro mouseio kai movo auta tous emeivav)
Edw oin germanoi exoun en0ousiastei genikws me ta eurhmata tou metro ths
a0hnas... kai eidika ta pio ekkentrika... ekeino ton tafo tou skulou me
to kolie apo petradia ton exoume faei me to koutali -ase to serial me ta
kokkala tou periklh. Ideallws , saturoi kai pantos eidous arxaies
sthseis gemizoun, nomizei kaneis, biblio0hkes, sa na mhn uphrxe allo
0ema meleths ektos apo ta dionusia.
takis
Elizabeth Kosmetatou
>Nikos Sakellaridis wrote:
>>
>> Sto Mouseio sthn A8hna DEN ek8etoun ta aggeia
>> me seksoualikes
>> parastaseis.
>> Sth Bostwnh den kserw pou ta brhkan.
>Mnpws giati stnv A0nva exouv toooooosa alla va ek0esouv; Epipleov, olo
>kaiakti ek0etouv, giati exw akousei diaforous 3evous pou exiouv paei
>ekei poso kollnsav se kati agalmatakia klp klp (kai n0ela va tous
>skotwsw giati oloklnro mouseio kai movo auta tous emeivav)
Koita3e, dev 0ymamai ti akribws exei n A0nva, alla oi parastaseis autes
eivai toso syvn0ismeves pou oooooooolo kai kati 0a exei kai n A0nva stis
apo0nkes tns. Oi Ellnves omws eimaste semvotyfoi kai dev ta bazei. BTW,
vai, o fallokratns eivai a3ioperiergo agalma kai to koitazouv oloi kai to
ek0etei kai to mouseio, apo tnv alln meria omws dev tous paei va balouve ta
aggeia me ta agorakia.
Mnv 3exvate episns oti yparxei mia terastia omada aggeiwv me epigrafes pou
ek0eiazouv tnv omorfia gvwstwv agorakiwv tns epoxns tous pou ta kyvngousav
polloi. Eivai ta legomeva "aggeia 'kalos'". Ti syvebaive? As poume oti apo
ta agorakia tns epoxns eixe sou3e o mikros Alkibiadns n o mikros Xarmidns.
Avalogws loipov me tn moda n kai ta gousta tou aggeiografou, egrafe o
aggeiografos pavw se aggeia tou "Xarmidns kalos" pou snmaive "o Xarmidns
eivai megalo tekvo". Oi epigrafes autes syvodeuovtav eite apo sxetikn sknvn
evos evnlikou va "erwtotropei" (opws grafouv oi semvotyfoi) me eva paidaki.
H mporei va exoume sknvn evnlikwv me paidakia. Oi "erwtotropies" mporei va
deixvouv apo prokatarktika mexri full-blown sex kai pistepste me, dev
afnvouv tipote stn favtasia. Oi epigrafes "kalos" mporei va mnv aforouv eva
sygkekrimevo paidaki alla gevika to faivomevo twv paidakiwv kai va grafouv
aplws "o pais kalos" (koivws "zntw n paiderastia") kai mporouv va
syvodeuovtai apo kavovikes, asxetes sknves, n apo se3oualikes sknves.
Fysika ta aggeia auta stnv pleiopsnfia tous eivai attika.
Opoios 0elei va ma0ei perissotera gia tov erwta stnv arxaiotnta
(omofylofilo kai mn), va agorasei to dekato teuxos tou periodikou
Arxaiologia pou kyklofornse gyrw sta 1982, alla eixe toso sou3e pou
avatypwvetai syvexws. 0a to breite sto bibliopwleio "Papadnmas",
Ippokratous 6 n 8, dev 0ymamai twra pou eivai e3airetiko bibliopwleio gia
filologika-arxaiologika, opws kai o diplavos tou "Kardamitsas". 0a
avagvwrisete to teuxos kai apo auta pou leei ap' e3w, alla kai apo to
e3wfyllo pou eikovizei eva avaglyfo me evav typo kai mia typissa va to
kavouv. Eivai para poly kaln douleia kai exei givei apo arxaiologous kai
istorikous. Kai agoraste episns tnv Cantarella dioti eivai pio prosfatn apo
tov Dover.
Lypoumai poly pou sas sokarw toso, alla ta pragmata eixav etsi kalws n
kakws. To va prospa0oume va ta diastreblwsoume dev exei vonma, eivai
avtiparagwgiko kai aparadekto dioti eivai aisxro va prospa0ei kaveis va
diastreblwsei tnv istoria. Etsi ntav. Terma.
>>
>> Kai opws 8a deis o mesos oros zwhs twn Ellhnwn
>> 8a ephreastei apo thn aukshmenh katanalkwsh alkool
>> pou parathreitai teleutaia.
>Hdn epnreazetai n odngnsn mas :-) Dustuxws oi sxetikoi vomoi
>efarmozovtai sto stul "0a paw stov 3aderfo stnv troxaia va mou to
>sbusouv". Gia va mnv pws gia tis sxetikes diafnmistikes ekstrateies, pou
>se sxesn me kati australezikes pou mas eixav dei3ei edw kapote, eivai
>polu polu polu npies.
Etsi 0a sbnsouv ypo0etw kai ta pevte kakourgnmata kata tou Korkoln (mia kai
piasame dnladn ta se3oualika).
Liza
Tranos Nektarios
> context twv n0wv tns epoxns ekeivns kai oxi tns dikns mas epoxns. Kai av
> krivw dnladn apo auta pou blepw stnv Ellada teleutaia avarwtiemai poia
> akribws eivai ta xrnsta n0n tns dikns mas xwras s' autnv tnv epoxn.
>
> >
Pantws se epishmh Istoria ( prepei na omologhsw oti den trelenomai gia
Istoria )
oute exw diavasei oute eixame didaxthei tipota.
Argotera otan to ematha kai anefera oti o Megas Swkraths ekane tetoia
pragmata oi kathwsprepei phgan na me fane ......
>
> Liza
>
>
Elizabeth Kosmetatou
>
Liza
takis karantonis
> Lypoumai poly pou sas sokarw toso, alla ta pragmata eixav etsi kalws n
> kakws. To va prospa0oume va ta diastreblwsoume dev exei vonma, eivai
> avtiparagwgiko kai aparadekto dioti eivai aisxro va prospa0ei kaveis va
> diastreblwsei tnv istoria. Etsi ntav. Terma.
Apo pou bgazeis to sumperasma oti sokaretai kaneis edw mesa ?
Tragoudage o Serrat (gia osous ton 3eroun ton tragoudopoio):
Nunca es triste la verdad
Lo que no tiene es : remedio
sto peripou:
Pote den einai stenoxwrh h alh0eia
to mono pou DEN exei einai : antidoto
Elizabeth Kosmetatou
>> meleta kaveis istoria prepei va paramevei ametoxos syvais0nmatika kai va
>> meleta ta faivomeva ws faivomeva xwris va pairvei 0esn. Dev eivai douleia
>> tou istorikou va parei 0esn, ase dnladn pou kai va parei kaveis 0esn to
>> kavei out of context. H paiderasteia ntav eva faivomevo pou eixe
>emfavistei
>> gia kapoious koivwvikous kyriws logous. Kai ws tetoio meletatai, mesa sto
>> context twv n0wv tns epoxns ekeivns kai oxi tns dikns mas epoxns. Kai av
>> krivw dnladn apo auta pou blepw stnv Ellada teleutaia avarwtiemai poia
>> akribws eivai ta xrnsta n0n tns dikns mas xwras s' autnv tnv epoxn.
>>
>> >
>
>Istoria )
>oute exw diavasei oute eixame didaxthei tipota.
Fysika oxi. Oute egw mexri pou pnga gia metaptyxiaka. Fysika ta n3era apo
priv apo proswpiko diabasma.
>Argotera otan to ematha kai anefera oti o Megas Swkraths ekane tetoia
>pragmata oi kathwsprepei phgan na me fane ......
Giati dev mporeis va apaggistrw0eis apo to va kriveis ta tote gegovota
symfwva me ta twriva n0n? Giati "Megas Swkratns"?
Deuterov, o Swkratns DEN ekave tetoia kai eivai akribws auto pou leei kai o
Platwv. DEN ekave tetoia dioti n0ele va kyriarxnsei sta pa0n tou. Eixe
dnladn tnv ore3n va kavei tetoia, DEN ta ekave omws dioti n0ele va dei3ei
egkrateia. Kai av diabaseis to Symposio tou Platwva akribws auto leei o
Alkibiadns, oti tou rixtnke dnladn alla DEN.
Dev 3erw av se parngornsa arkouvtws setting the record straight oti o
Swkratns pervaei tis e3etaseis movtervas n0ikns (kai ypokrisias fysika).
Twra ti ekave PRIN apofasisei va givei filosofos dev to 3erw, oute to leei
kaveis.
Liza
Elizabeth Kosmetatou
>
>Elizabeth Kosmetatou wrote:
>> Lypoumai poly pou sas sokarw toso, alla ta pragmata eixav etsi kalws n
>> kakws. To va prospa0oume va ta diastreblwsoume dev exei vonma, eivai
>> avtiparagwgiko kai aparadekto dioti eivai aisxro va prospa0ei kaveis va
>> diastreblwsei tnv istoria. Etsi ntav. Terma.
>
>Apo pou bgazeis to sumperasma oti sokaretai kaneis edw mesa ?
Apo to gegovos oti ta exoume syzntnsei xilies fores edw mesa (kai ektos)
kai KA0E FORA pairvw triwv mnvymata: 1) mnvymata pou dnlwvouv avoixta n mn
to megalo tous sok oti oi arxaioi kavave "tetoia pramata", 2) mnvymata opou
dnlwvetai dyspistia (va eblepes blakeies pou exouv graftei gia tn Sapfw
evtos kai ektos listas prospa0wvtas va apodei3ouv oti ola eivai pare3ngnsn
kai oti DEN ntav lesbia -me tn sygxrovn evvoia- asxeta av n idia mexri kai
perigrafes exei sta poinmata tns). Eviote givetai prospa0eia va
diastreblw0ei n pragmatikotnta kai pairvovtai keimeva out of context, blepe
Daulo kai palaiotera mnvymata Feidia, kai 3) mnvymata atomwv pou exouv
ygein avtimetwpisn tou olou 0ematos: vai, givovtav, evdiaferov, twra to
3eroume, n to 3erame apo pala, e kai, ti egive?
>
>Tragoudage o Serrat (gia osous ton 3eroun ton tragoudopoio):
>Nunca es triste la verdad
>Lo que no tiene es : remedio
>
>sto peripou:
>Pote den einai stenoxwrh h alh0eia
>to mono pou DEN exei einai : antidoto
>
Dystyxws gia tous Ellnvares.
Liza
Stavros Papastratos
Stavrakas
>From: Elizabeth Kosmetatou <elizabeth....@ARTS.KULEUVEN.AC.BE>
>Reply-To: Elizabeth Kosmetatou <elizabeth....@ARTS.KULEUVEN.AC.BE>
>To: HEL...@LISTS.PSU.EDU
>Subject: Re: Megas Aleksavdros (gay or not gay...)
>Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:01:07 +0200
>
>At 10:58 AM 4/18/00 +0300, Tranos Nektarios wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> 1) To va pngaivei evas evnlikos me paidakia dev ntav katakriteo,
>avti0eta
> >> ntav koivwvikn tou ypoxrewsn kai oles oi sxetikes pnges symfwvouv me
>auto.
> >>
> >
> >To an ta paidakia htan agorakia .h. koritsakia eixe shmasia ????
> >
> >PS. Eixa akousei gia tous arxaious alla shmera tha karaflianw !
> >
>
>Agorakia fysika! Stn Spartn eixe kai avtistoixn parallagn gia koritsakia
>pou pngaivave me kyries kapoias nlikias gia logous ekpaideusns. A vai, kai
>stn Lesbo.
>
>Giati 0a karafliaseis? Gvwsta eivai auta.
>
>Liza
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Tranos Nektarios
mikro ( ayto paizetai ) kai agno eimai ( me koritsaki katw twn 18 den exw
paei )
Ax lathos epoxh gennhthhka
, ekei katw apo ta peuka me ton Alkiviadh na pernoume ta 8xrona dyo- dyo : )
Nikos Sakellaridis
> Alekou. O Alekos pavw sto methysi skotwse to kollntari tou tov Kleito.
hmmm
> Ta
> methysia tou sabbatokyriakou de se odngouv stnv trella.
> Maria
>
mhpws oi duo protaseis antifaskoun?
mhpws edwses monh sou apanthsh?
nikos
Nikos Sakellaridis
>
> >Yparxouve erwtika keimeva me sxolia gia alles
> >ratses? Arapives, klp px..
>
> Oriste?
>
ma fusika liza mou (ti egine h bibliografia sou):
Arapines maures erwtiares
me wisky (sic) kai glukies ki8ares
Nikos
>
> >
> >Kitsos
> >
>
> Liza
Nikos Sakellaridis
> Nikos Sakellaridis wrote:
>
> > Maria Karra wrote:
> > > Alekou. O Alekos pavw sto methysi skotwse to kollntari tou tov Kleito.
> > hmmm
> > > Ta
> > > methysia tou sabbatokyriakou de se odngouv stnv trella.
> > > Maria
> > mhpws oi duo protaseis antifaskoun?
> > mhpws edwses monh sou apanthsh?
> > nikos
>
> Oxi, giati dev apavtousa se seva. Apavtousa stn Sofia pou rwtouse giati dev
> pethaivouv se vearn nlikia alloi pou pivouv poly px ta Sabbatokyriaka. (Apla eixa
> ndn sbnsei to e-mail tns Sofias, kai gi auto ekava Reply sto diko sou me to idio
> thema.)
> Maria
opou kai na apantouses uparxei antifash
kai nai to alkool mporei na ferei
kai 8anato kai psuxwsikh sumperifora se neotath hlikia
opws kai ston Aleksandro
Nikos
Maria Karra
Maria Karra
> opou kai na apantouses uparxei antifash
> kai nai to alkool mporei na ferei
> kai 8anato kai psuxwsikh sumperifora se neotath hlikia
> opws kai ston Aleksandro
>
> Nikos
Bre Niko, pou eivai n avtifasn? Eipa oti ta methysia tou Sabbatokyriakou de se odngouv
stnv trella, opws ta methysia tou Aleksavdrou pou de givovtav movo ta sabbatokyriaka,
alla para poly syxva kai se megalo bathmo. H Sofia an thymamai kala milnse gia
methysia foitntwv pou sourwvouv ta sabbatokyriaka (n kati tetoio telos pavtwv). Eipa
loipov oti dev yparxei sygkrisn. O Alekos epive yperbolika. Avtifasn dev yparxei.
Opws kai va 'xei to pragma, n eikova pou sxnmatisa gia tov Aleksavdro ap'to biblio pou
diabasa eivai poly diaforetikn ap'tnv eikova pou eixa sto gymvasio opou mas parousiazav
tov Aleksavdro ws aggeloudi. Alla tha mou peis, av dev paivepseis to spiti sou tha
pesei va se plakwsei...
Maria
Christos Papadas
>>Ma dev amfiballw gia tnv upar3n tns omofulofilias stnv
>>arxaia Ellada, aplws epeidn kapoies apo tis pnges tou
>>Daulou edivav diaforetikn eikova ws pros tnv apodoxn tns,
>>e0i3a to 0ema. Egw otav to brw to keimevo, dev 0a sas
>>spasw t;araxidia me ta sumperasmata tou Daulou. 0a
>>dw ti parousiazei arxaies pnges va leve, kai av exei la0os
>>n eivai out of context auto 0elw va mou peis, dev
>>tov ebgala pio egkuro apo tis pnges pou avafereis.
>>Dev exw gvwsn ep'autou gia kati tetoio allwste.
>Re Xrnsto, asta ta apospasmata apo to Daulo dioti dev prokeitai va katsw va
>psaxvw tous arxaious syggrafeis va koitazw ti diastreblwse, ti boutn3e out
>of context kai ti metefrase la0os.
Kala re Liza, akoma dev mou edwse o allos tov Daulo va dw ti akribws
leei, kai va sou pw ti eida, pou mporw va 3erw egw, n esu prokatabolika
av uparxei diastreblwsn?!
>Kalytera pare to biblio pou sou systnsa
>pou meleta tis pnges apo tnv arxn, oles tous kai meleta e3eliktika kai kata
>perifereia to faivomevo. Astov to Daulo teleiws.
Xairw polu, asfalws kai gia va to les 0a eivai pio kaln pngn
epi tou 0ematos. Alla o Daulos exei evdiaferov epeidn kavei
avtilogo, kai 0elw va dw poso egkuros eivai, toulaxistov edw sto
0ema auto. Exw dei paliotera polla trabngmeva apo ta mallia
sto Daulo alla exw dei kai pragmata (gurw apo tnv Tourkokratia
px) pou stekave afou ta eixa brei kai se alles pio egkures pnges.
>Pnges BTW dev eivai movov
>oi arxaioi syggrafeis alla kai arxaiologika eurnmata (p.x. aggeia,
>agalmata, klp.), opws kai epigrafes. Gegovos eivai oti oti dev prokeitai
>aplws gia "ypar3n" omofylofilias, alla gia koivwviko kai politismiko
>faivomevo.
Asfalws kai eivai koivwviko faivomevo, pavta. Mporei va exeis dikio kai
ws pros tnv ektasn, opws profavws evvoeis. Apo tnv alln, etsi kai
brouve oi arxaiologoi tou mellovtos ta periodika, taivies, klp poustndwv,
0a leve isws to idio kai gia mas... Egw dev pisteuw pavtws oti mporei se
kammia koivwvia av0rwpwv va givei n epikratousa praktikn eite n paiderastia
eite n omofulofilia giati n av0rwpivn fusn 0a periorizei tetoia faivomeva
se meioynfies av0rwpwv. Na gevvn0ei terastio meros tou pln0usmou n va
apoktnsei meta omofulofilikes taseis eivai statistika aduvato. Twra poso
diadedomevn ntav n omofulofilia, e, ekei eivai to 0ema pou 0igoume kai
suzntame.
>Eivai dyvatov kiolas va dexesai eva keimevo pou sou petaei o
>Daulos otav yparxouv poly diasnma keimeva opws tou Platwva pou avefere n
>Lamprivn n tou Ploutarxou pou avefera egw?
Kala, amfisbntnsa egw ta keimeva pou aveferes esu n Lamprivn,
n mnpws tnv upar3n omofulofilias?? Egw eipa oti eixa dei eva
avtilogo basismevo -upoti0etai- se arxaies pnges kai 0elnsa va
kavw suzntnsn gia tov avtilogo, kai malista ws mn eidikos, legovtas
pws akribws sxolia kai malista dika sas epi tou prokeimevou
n0ela va akousw!!
Ti vomizeis pws paw va kavw avtilogo...epeidn eixe
poustrovia n arxaia Ellada?? :-)) H me evoxlei o ka0e
arxaios poustns/kolomparas/mpives mpas kai mou
xalasei n ideologikn mou soupa peri Ellnvismou??
Ideologika mou eivai adiaforo, eite tov epairvav eite oxi :-))
Wres va me bgalete kai meva suvomwtn...
Kitsos
>>
>>Kitsos
>>
>
>Liza
>
>
Constantine Thomas
pou o Dias krataei
agkalia ton Ganymidh (kati san papadas) kai ton paei sthn Olympia gia ta
peraiterw.
O Ganymidhs krataei ena kokoreli pou tous edinan dwro.
Skepsou xara h mama otan o gios eferne sto spiti to proto tou "pthno"
K Thomas
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Christos Papadas
To 0ema mas kat' arxas ntav poso diadomevn ntav
n se3oualikn avwmalia stnv arxaia Ellada kai
oxi n mu0ologia autn ka0'eautn. Oi Ellnves allwste
eixav ola ta egklnmata, bitsia kai arrwsties stn
mu0ologia tous. Afou omws epimeveis:
O Dover, kavei profavws (pali) la0os
stnv istorikn ermnveia peri "omofulofilias" tou
eurnmatos Dia-Gavumndn. Epeidn polloi
sav kai seva kai tov Dover ermnveuouv tov mu0o
mesa apo to avwmalo omufolofuliko tous pa0os,
pare tnv e3ns plnroforia apo tov 3evofwvta mpas kai
pareis prefa oti uparxei kai alln ermnveia pera apo
tnv avwmaln favtasia: (Sumposio 8, 30-31):
"Egw de fnmi kai Gavumndn ou swmatos alla yuxns
eveka upo tou Dios eis Olumpov avevex0nvai...."
kai suvexizei me kapoia sxolia peri Patroklou kai
Axillea, klp pou dev deixvouv ka0olou apodoxn tns
omulofilias.
To pi0avotero eivai va va upnrxe stnv arxaia Ellada
avwmalia opws kai twra, kai malista mpolikn. Alla
dev 3erw va uparxei kati pou va apodeikvuei oti
ntav n suvn0ns praxtikn, opws dev eimaste oloi
poustndes kai twra. Diasnmoi poustndes upnrxav
favtazomai stnv arxaia Ellada, opws kai stn vewtern.
Oute o Kabafns, oute o Tsarouxns, oute o Xatzndakns
arkouv va xaraxtnristoume sav koivwvia koivwia omofulofulwv.
Oute kav oi mazes twv pitsirikadwv pou ekdidovtai gia lefta
stn Ba0ns (exe to yp' oyiv sou mpas kai meiveis avergos pote)
Kalnvuxta malaka.
Kitsos
Elizabeth Kosmetatou
>>psaxvw tous arxaious syggrafeis va koitazw ti diastreblwse, ti boutn3e out
>>of context kai ti metefrase la0os.
>
>Kala re Liza, akoma dev mou edwse o allos tov Daulo va dw ti akribws
>leei, kai va sou pw ti eida, pou mporw va 3erw egw, n esu prokatabolika
>av uparxei diastreblwsn?!
Dioti 3erw prokatabolika se poia akribws pngn avaferetai kai 3erw ti esti
Daulos dioti exw diabasei aristourgnmata tou peristasiaka apo tote pou
arxise va bgaivei sta mesa twv 80's. 0a aradiasei eva swro katebata peri
arxaiwv syggrafewv pou 0a avaferovtai se vomo0esia kata twv omofylofilwv
kai fysika 0a kavei axtarma ta pavta, dev 0a exei asxoln0ei me tnv orologia
pou xrnsimopoieitai, evw 0a xrnsimopoiei epilektika ekeives tis pnges pou
0elei kai 0a tis diastreblwvei. Dioti vai mev apagoreuotav va biaseis
paidaki kai apagoreuotav va eisai porvos kai 0ewrouvtav asteio va exei
kaveis movimn (kai oxi peristasiakn) sxesn me avtra ws evnlikos, alla dev
apagoreuotav va apoplavnseis paidaki, avti0eta 0ewrouvtav spoudaia ypo0esn,
oute va to kaveis me avtra apo kairo se kairo.
>Xairw polu, asfalws kai gia va to les 0a eivai pio kaln pngn
>epi tou 0ematos. Alla o Daulos exei evdiaferov epeidn kavei
>avtilogo, kai 0elw va dw poso egkuros eivai, toulaxistov edw sto
>0ema auto.
Ma 0a eprepe va 3ereis, Xrnsto, oti o Daulos DEN kavei avtilogo, grafei
blakeies kai DEN eivai egkyros se kaveva 0ema, poso mallov auto pou tous
povaei kai tous tsouzei. Kai efosov n Cantarella exei kavei meletn (dev
apotelei pngn n idia, xrnsimopoiei pnges swsta omws) epi tou 0ematos, tote
0a eprepe opwsdnpote va breis to sygkekrimevo biblio kai oxi to Daulo. Oxi
esy proswpika, alla opoios evdiaferetai gia to 0ema. Dev yparxei zntnma
avtilogou dioti ta pragmata sto sygkekrimevo 0ema eivai 3eka0ara.
A vai, mnv bgei o Feidias meta apo trimnvo kai steilei nli0io katebato
dioti pame kai agorazoume kai to Daulo ama laxei, tnv idia douleia kavei.
Exw dei paliotera polla trabngmeva apo ta mallia
>sto Daulo alla exw dei kai pragmata (gurw apo tnv Tourkokratia
>px) pou stekave afou ta eixa brei kai se alles pio egkures pnges.
Ma pavta ta parousiazei trabngmeva apo ta mallia, n stnv kalytern
periptwsn, parousiazei tis pnges epilektika. Kai sta 0emata peri arxaiwv
kavei syvn0ws la0os.
>Asfalws kai eivai koivwviko faivomevo, pavta.
Oxi pavta. P.x. snmera pou o kosmos akolou0ei syvn0ws tnv proswpikn tou
klisn, dev eivai koivwviko faivomevo, alla mallov biologiko (kala
xrnsimopoiw tov oro?).
Mporei va exeis dikio kai
>ws pros tnv ektasn, opws profavws evvoeis. Apo tnv alln, etsi kai
>brouve oi arxaiologoi tou mellovtos ta periodika, taivies, klp poustndwv,
>0a leve isws to idio kai gia mas...
Oxi, dev 0a leve to idio gia mas, dioti eivai 3eka0arismevo oti snmera,
toulaxistov stn dytikn koivwvia, n omofylofilia eivai mallov zntnma
proswpikns klisns kai oxi e0imiko. Stnv arxaiotnta dev yparxei amfibolia
oti eprokeito gia e0imo kai koivwviko faivomevo, afou oloi oi syggrafeis
symfwvouv pavw se auto, to idio kai ta arxaiologika eurnmata kai dev
ti0etai kav zntnma avtilogou. Eivai, gia va sou dwsw va katalabeis, sav va
prospa0ei o Daulos, n opoios allos Ellnvaras, va amfisbntnsei tnv akribn
xrovolognsn tou Par0evwva pou mas tnv epibebaiwvouv epigrafes: xtistnke apo
to 448 mexri to 438, to agalma kai ta teleiwmata oloklnrw0nkav to 432 kai
dev yparxei kamia amfibolia, kavevas avtilogos, tipota allo va eipw0ei ep'
autou tou 0ematos. Mporoume va syzntnsoume gia leptomereies, opws tnv
texvikn pou xrnsimopoin0nke, ta ylika, pws metafer0nkav, to zntnma tou
arxitektova, klp. OXI omws sta peri tns xrovolognsns. To zntnma auto exei
kleisei dioti symfwvouv me auto ta pavta: syggrafeis, avaskafes, epigrafes.
To idio kai sxetika me tnv omofylofilia. Ypnrxe, ntav e0imo, ypnrxav isws
diafores apo topo se topo sxetika me to pws eortazovtav to olov, diafores
stn vomo0esia peri biasmou n peri avtrikns porveias. Mporei merikes
perioxes va eixav vomous kata tns porveias, alles va mnv eixav. Alles
perioxes va timwrousav tnv porveia elafra, alles me 0avato. Allou va eixe
pesei se axrnsteia o vomos. Se merikes perioxes va koroideuav tous
evnlikous omofylofilous, allou (p.x. stn 0nba) va mnv tous koroideuav alla
va tous epaivousav. Dev yparxei omws kamia amfibolia gia to oti
ev0arryvovtav oi sxeseis meta3y evnlikwv-efnbwv kai dev ntav ka0olou vtropn
oi sxeseis meta3y evnlikwv omofylofilwv, arkei va tnrouvtav kapoio metro
kai va tnrousav tis koivwvikes tous ypoxrewseis, dnladn va pavtreuovtav
gyvaikes.
Egw dev pisteuw pavtws oti mporei se
>kammia koivwvia av0rwpwv va givei n epikratousa praktikn eite n paiderastia
>eite n omofulofilia giati n av0rwpivn fusn 0a periorizei tetoia faivomeva
>se meioynfies av0rwpwv. Na gevvn0ei terastio meros tou pln0usmou n va
>apoktnsei meta omofulofilikes taseis eivai statistika aduvato. Twra poso
>diadedomevn ntav n omofulofilia, e, ekei eivai to 0ema pou 0igoume kai
>suzntame.
Ara dnladn diafwveis. Giati omws dev diabazeis to biblio pou sou systnsa (n
tov Dover, ama 0eleis) n sygkritikes meletes tou faivomevou stis prwtogoves
koivwvies va deis av auta pou les kai n evtypwsn sou peri tns arxaias
omofylofilias stekouv? To oti arketoi efnboi dev n0elav va syvapsouv
sxeseis me avtres to gvwrizoume dioti kai auto avaferouv oi pnges, malista
e3ngouv kai ta ka0ekasta me arketes leptomereies. H koivwvikn piesn omws
ntav tetoia pou telika ypekyptav oloi. Kai 3ereis ti snmaivei koivwvikn
piesn kai vootropia kai pws epnrreazouv tn zwn olwv mas. 0a mou peis kai se
ti diaferouv auta apo biasmo? E, alliws orizav to biasmo stnv arxaiotnta
ap' o,ti tov orizoume snmera. Kati pou episns exei syzntn0ei ektevws kai
apo meletntes tns arxaias vomo0esias.
>Kala, amfisbntnsa egw ta keimeva pou aveferes esu n Lamprivn,
>n mnpws tnv upar3n omofulofilias?
Oxi, otav omws mou milas gia avtilogo otav sou lew oti symfwvouv oles oi
pnges sxetika me tnv eikova pou sou parousiasa kai pou basizetai se autes,
profavws kai amfisbnteis (opws les kai parapavw) tnv ektasn tou faivomevou.
To 0ema eivai oti oloi mas (ki egw pou ta mpeletaw) eivai adyvatov va
katavonsoume plnrws to giati kai pws dioti dev exoume tn vootropia ekeivn
kai oso kai va tnv meletnsoume, apokleietai va tnv znsoume.
gw eipa oti eixa dei eva
>avtilogo basismevo -upoti0etai- se arxaies pnges kai 0elnsa va
>kavw suzntnsn gia tov avtilogo, kai malista ws mn eidikos, legovtas
>pws akribws sxolia kai malista dika sas epi tou prokeimevou
>n0ela va akousw!!
OK, kai gi' auta milame.
>
>Ti vomizeis pws paw va kavw avtilogo...epeidn eixe
>poustrovia n arxaia Ellada?? :-)) H me evoxlei o ka0e
>arxaios poustns/kolomparas/mpives mpas kai mou
>xalasei n ideologikn mou soupa peri Ellnvismou??
Mmmmmmm, va sou pw, dev eimai sigourn. :-))))))))))) Alla otav
xrnsimopoieis tetoies ekfraseis gia va tous perigrapseis, va sou pw, me
bazeis se skepseis. :-)))))))))))))
>Ideologika mou eivai adiaforo, eite tov epairvav eite oxi :-))
>Wres va me bgalete kai meva suvomwtn...
Kai pali sou lew: pare eva biblio grammevo apo eidiko, pou va eivai
kalogrammevo gia va mnv koimn0eis stn mesn. O Daulos dev grafetai apo
eidikous alla apo allalazov e0vikistario. Sou systnsa eva prosfato pou
eivai kalogrammevo. Kai e3etazei to 0ema apo oles tou tis pleures, dev to
3ekivnse n gyvaika dioti n0ele va apodei3ei kati (opws kavei pavtote o
Daulos), oute eivai lesbia, ap' o,ti 3erw. Grafei ta pragmata ws exouv. Kai
to 0ema dev eivai apo auta gia ta opoia yparxouv liges pnges kai peftouv
meta 0ewries epi 0ewriwv. Eivai toso 3eka0aro, oso n xrovolognsn tou
Par0evwva pou avefera parapavw, gia tnv opoia dev givetai va ypar3ouv
0ewries epi 0ewriwv logw pln0wras pngwv pou symfwvouv oles meta3y tous.
>
>Kitsos
>
Liza
Christos Papadas
kai 0igeis kai alla twra. Isw brw kai snmera ta epixeirnmata
n tis pnges tou Daulou, dev 3erw.
(Ev tw meta3u mas proekuyav pali oi komple3ikoi kata
twv Arbavitwv asiates...)
Kitsos
-----Original Message-----
From: Elizabeth Kosmetatou <elizabeth....@arts.kuleuven.ac.be>
To: Christos Papadas <Kit...@LEHEON.FREESERVE.CO.UK>; HEL...@LISTS.PSU.EDU
<HEL...@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Date: 19 April 2000 04:02
Subject: Re: Megas Aleksavdros (gay or not gay...)
Phidias Bourlas
>
> [...] o Swkratns DEN ekave tetoia kai eivai akribws auto pou leei kai o
> Platwv. DEN ekave tetoia dioti n0ele va kyriarxnsei sta pa0n tou. Eixe
> dnladn tnv ore3n va kavei tetoia, DEN ta ekave omws dioti n0ele va dei3ei
> egkrateia. Kai av diabaseis to Symposio tou Platwva akribws auto leei o
> Alkibiadns, oti tou rixtnke dnladn alla DEN.
>
diayeudovtas tnv ka8ierwmevn evtupwsn "eidikwv" te kai mn gia tov
Swkratn. Avti8eta me osa egraye allou gia tov Platwva, o opoios,
opws eivai favero kai apo ta apospasmata pou pare8ese o Papadas,
dev epaivei tnv omofulofilia. Oxi pws ektimouse idiaiterws kai tov
erwta me to avti8eto fulo (dedomevns kai tns oxi idiaitera megalns
ektimnsns tou gia tis guvaikes` fusika o misoguvismos -eav dex8oume
oti tov xaraktnrize- dev suvista omofulofilia)` akribestero 8a ntav
eav legame oti perifrovouse tov sarkiko erwta gevikws. Sxetikws
grafei toso sto "Sumposiov" oso kai stov "Faidro", opou kataferetai
evavtiov oswv, avtikruzovtas evav wraio efnbo, avti va sugkivn8ouv
kai va viwsouv deos gia tnv Idea tou Kallous (tns opoias avtavaklasn
eivai to kallos tou efnbou) viw8ouv se3oualikn el3n, xaraktnrizovtas
tous "tetrapoda" ktnvn pou epi8umouv tnv "para fusei" suvousia
(autes tis le3eis xrnsimopoiei).
Alla ekei pou kaveis aporei gia tnv diastreblwtikn ermnveia twv
arxaiwv pngwv apo tous perispoudastous "eidikous" (oxi olous bebaia,
kuriws averastes/kruptomofulofilous sugxroves/-ous istorikous-
suggrafeis) eivai sto "Sumposiov". Afnvovtas tnv avaptu3n tns 8ewrias
tou Platwvikou erwtos kai ta avaferomeva gia tov Swkratn, logos peri
tns paiderastias akribws givetai apo kapoiov Pausavia, erastn (kai
me tnv snmerivn evvoia tou orou) tou Aga8wvos. Prokeitai gia
apologntiko logo uper tns paiderastias. Alla poia n avagkn tns
apologias, eav to "e8imo" auto ntav apodekto kai epikrotoumevo; Ma,
o idios o Pausavias, legei akribws, oti kakws n paiderastia (otav
emperiexei kai se3oualikn sxesn) exei kakn fnmn, evw, kat' autov,
dev 8a eprepe va eivai etsi! Ti xreiav allnv exomev apodei3ewv;
To pragma eivai toso safes, oso to oti n avoikodomnsn tou
Par8evwvos oloklnrw8nke to 438 p.X., kati pou dev eivai duvatov
va alla3ei, para tous opoiousdnpote logikous akrobatismous.
Prepei va episnmav8ei episns oti milame movo gia paiderastia.
H omofulofilia e8ewreito epoveidistos (n pa8ntikn) kai auto dev
to amfisbntei oute n Liza. Kai otav miloume gia paiderastia, dev
xrnsimopoioume tov oro me tnv sugxrovn evvoia. Oi erastes (me tnv
sugxrovn snmasia) mikrwv paidiwv etimwrouvto apo tov vomo me tnv
poivn tou 8avatou! Milame gia tnv sxesn wrimou avdros me efnbo
ekpaideuomevo. Kai avafer8nke o problnmatismos twv arxaiwv gia tnv
diastrofn pou ufistato suxva autn n sxesn.
Auta peri "Sumposiou" kai "Faidrou", ta opoia apokruptouv
diaforoi "eleu8eriazovtes" meletntes. To allo pou mou ekave
evtupwsn eivai to pw's n Liza exei tnv evtupwsn oti mas...
sokarouv auta pou grafei (vomizovtas malista oti eav ta grafei
kai me kapws eleu8eriazousa glwssa, 8a mas sokarei perissotero,
kai 8a 8aumasoume to fileleu8ero kai aveu sumplegmatwv pveuma
tns)! Les kai eivai sokaristikn "avakaluyn" to oti oi arxaioi
Ellnves to... ekavav! Ma pote dev upo8esame oti esterouvto
zwtikotntos, touvavtiov!
Stnv pragmatikotnta, stnv laikn avtilnyn die8vws n akribws
avti8etn evtupwsn epikratei, suxva mexri tou snmeiou va
diastreblwvetai n pragmatikotnta. H arxaia Ellada e8ewreito
suvufasmevn me to eleu8eriazov pveuma kai tnv amfiboln, ews
ekfulismou, n8ikn. Se auto suvebalav ka8oristika oi av8ellnvikes
avtilnyeis pou prow8n8nkav apo tnv sugkrousn Ellnvismou-
Xristiavismou, oi opoies suvedesav tnv arxaia Ellada me tnv
diaf8ora kai tnv avn8ikotnta, avtilnyn pou dev avairesav oute
oi klassikistes tns Dut. Eurwpns, oi opoioi apekoyav to
Diovusiako pveuma apo to arxaioellnviko protupo pou
oaramatistnkav. Etsi oi pavtes otav avaferovtai stnv
arxaia Ellada, tnv suvdeouv, dikaiws n' adikws, kai me to
eleu8eriazov pveuma. Dev prokalei evtupwsn, oute mas...
sokarei kati tetoio, to avti8eto. Oso gia to ti proballoume
emeis oi Ellnves apo tnv arxaiotnta` oxi movo dev deixvoume
semvotufia, alla to avti8eto. O tourismos eivai xaraktnristiko
paradeigma: olo Saturous me pelwrious fallous proballoume,
mpas kai evtupwsiasoume kammia touristria! :-)
>
> Liza
>
F.M.
U.G.
Tov Ale3avdro -to epavalambavw mpas kai to balouv
epitelous sto mualo tous orismevoi- dev tov latreuoume epeidn
ntav... povoyuxos, tov latreuoume epeidn ntav 8eos. Kai fusika
mia tetoia daimovikn (me tnv arxaia snmasia tns le3ews) fusis,
exei kai ekdnlwseis aprobleptes kai amfilegomeves.
Ka8oristikos pavtws, toso gia tnv sumperifora tou, oso kai
gia to telos tou, ntav o sobaros traumatismos tou apo belos
stov 8wraka kata tnv poliorkia kai katalnyn tns polews twv
Mallwv, tote pou pndn3e movos tou (!) ta teixn peftovtas mesa
stous ex8rous. Apo tov traumatismo autov, pou profavws pote
dev 3eperase, 3ekivnsav ola.
U.G.2
H Liza eixe isxuris8ei yeudws oti kammia arxaia pngn dev
kavei logo gia erwtika ais8nmata tou Ale3avdrou gia kapoia
guvaika. Apedei3a oti auto eivai yeudes, avaferovtas oti,
osov afora stnv Rw3avn, auto akribws leve oi arxaioi. H Liza
dikaiologn8nke tote oti o gamos me tnv Rw3avn emperieixe
politikn skopimotnta. Pragma asfalws swsto, pou dev avairei
avagkastika ta peri erwtos alla, asxetws autou, dev eixe
sxesn me to sugkekrimevo ekeivo avtikeimevo tns diafwvias,
eav 8eloume va eimaste akribeis se osa leme. (H asxetn
kavei twra kai "xioumor" gia tov Bagwa` egw pavtws molis
eixa diabasei tote to istoriko mu8istornma tns Mairns Revw,
opou o Bagwas akribws eivai o o nrwas tou mu8istornmatos.)
U.G.3
Sto teleutaio teuxos tou "Daulou" dnmosieutai suvevteu3n
ekeivou tou Braziliavou filou mas pou eixe ftia3ei tis
kataplnktikes istoselides me titlo "Learn the truth now!"
(priv tou tis kleisouv). Episns o "D" pairvei 8esn (arvntikn)
gia tous snmerivous dwdeka8eistes.
F.M.