Ellhnikothta
Panagiotis J. Karras
> Av pragmatika vomizeis oti ektos apo gevetika, oi arxaioi Ellnves ntav
> progovoi mas kai E0NIKA, eisai euprosdektos va oriseis to e9vika kai va
> dei3eis (xwris asxeta apospasmata parakalw---movo ta apolutws sxetika,
> me dikaiolognsn kai sxoliasmo) oti pragmati n evvoia tou e9vous pou dexomaste
> snmera isxue tote kai oti oi arxaioi Ellnves eixav suvais9nsn tns e9vikns
> tous tautotntas ws koivns---ellnvikns.
Pame loipon:
Sxetika apospasmata:
- "Aytis de to Ellhnikon eon omaimon te kai omoglwsson kai 0ewn idrymata
te koina kai 0ysiai h0ea te omotropa, twn prodotas genes0ai A0hnaioys
oyk an ey exoi."
A0hnaioi pros Lakedaimonioys, 5os aiwnas pX
- "Ellhnes gar to genos esmen, ws h hmetera glwssa kai paideia martyrei."
Gewrgios Gemistos Plh0wn, 15os aiwnas mX
- "Ayta ta agalmata, osa talira kai na sas dwsoyn, na mhn katadexthte na fygoyn
apo thn patrida mas. Gi' ayta polemhsame."
Makrygiannhs, 19os aiwnas mX
Xreiazetai kati parapanw 'h den eisai telika toso amorfwtos;
P K
Athanassios Protopapas
polikn pavida kai xlwrida va eivai parodikes kai mikrns klimakas.
> Gyrisa apo ton Kyklo ths Megalhs Arkoydas kai diabasa to e}hs kataplhktiko:
>
>> Av pragmatika vomizeis oti ektos apo gevetika, oi arxaioi Ellnves ntav
>> progovoi mas kai E0NIKA, eisai euprosdektos va oriseis to e9vika kai va
>> dei3eis (xwris asxeta apospasmata parakalw---movo ta apolutws sxetika,
>> me dikaiolognsn kai sxoliasmo) oti pragmati n evvoia tou e9vous pou dexomaste
>> snmera isxue tote kai oti oi arxaioi Ellnves eixav suvais9nsn tns e9vikns
>> tous tautotntas ws koivns---ellnvikns.
Opws suvn9ws petas apospasmata xwris va apavtas tnv erwtnsn. Perimevw
dikaiolognsn kai sxoliasmo ws pros tnv evvoia tou e9vous kai ws pros to av
oi arxaioi Ellnves eixav autn tn suvais9nsn. Kai epeidn faivetai exeis
problnmata katavonsns, va sou to pw kai opws to eipa tou Mpourla:
To zntoumevo eivai va deix9ei oti
>(1) oi arxaioi Ellnves
>9ewrousav eautous OMOE0NEIS (oxi aplws "Ellnves" alla sugkekrimeva avnkovtes
>sto idio E0NOS---kai me stoixeia gia to pws akribws evvoeito o oros "e9vos"
>tote) kai (2) to snmerivo "ellnviko e9vos" apotelei suvexeia tou arxaiou
>ellnvikou (afou prwta dei3oume oti upnr3e to prwto).
kai va sou to (3ava)e3ngnsw:
To zntoumevo DEN eivai va deix9ei oti uparxouv apospasmata apo arxaia ellnvika
(parempiptovtws, to epi9eto de grafetai me kefalaia) keimeva pou va avaferovtai
se Ellnves, oute kav oti uparxouv apospasmata pou va avaferovtai se omaimov
omoglwssov klp. To zntoumevo eivai va ermnveu9ouv ta apospasmata pou uparxouv
sto katallnlo plaisio, va deix9ei oti eivai avtiproswpeutika, kai va e3ngn9ei
ti akribws evvoouv. Av ntav va pairvoume ka9e apospasma tois metrntois etsi
opws ta petas tote skeyou tis suvepeies twv apospasmatwv apo logous Nazi peri
Areias fulns (n' mnpws va ta paroume sobara ki ekeiva;) ka9ws kai tis suvepeies
twv apospasmatwv peri twv "barbarwv" Makedovwv pou toso areskovtai va tsitarouv
oi FYROMiavoi (apo tote pou katebaive o Filippos aka9ektos kai oi votioi eixav
klasei mevtes).
Basika apospasmata uparxouv af9ova kai gia otidnpote. Stnv ermnveia eivai
pou xalaei n suvtagn giati ektos apo avagvwstikn ikavotnta xreiazetai kai
katavonsn kai egkefalikn epe3ergasia gia ta opoia de fnmizesai oute esu oute
oi alloi lamproi apogovoi twv lampater tou politismou ava tous aiwves (kai
apo katabolns kosmou malista, evw oi alloi trwgave belavidia).
0avasns
-allou-
Phidias Bourlas
Gia to apo pote kai epi posov, suvexws, uparxouv Ellnves, Ellnvismos
kai suveidnsn tns Ellnvikotntos, dev 8a eprepe bebaia va exoume kav
amfibolies.
Exw pavtws va paratnrnsw kai ta e3ns, se sxesn me tis aitiaseis tou
Prwtopapa. To eva eivai oti o autoprosdiorismos kai n autosuveidnsia
twv Ellnvwv ws Ellnvwv, dev ntav kai toso xalarn, opws twv Eurwpaiwv
ws Eurwpaiwv snmera. Kai, to deutero, ntav malista prosdiorismos, pou
oxi movo dev perielambave asafws o,ti ki o,ti eteroklnto 8a mporouse
va favtastei kaveis, alla ntav avti8etws prosdiorismos apaitntikos,
austnros kai perioristikos. Edw mexri kai ka8ara Ellnvika fula, etsi
kai dev eixav kai polu... ka8ws prepei profora kai dev ntav kai polu
ekleptusmeva sav tous A8nvaious, dev to 'xav kai se polu va ta bgalouv
barbarika.
F.M.
Panagiotis J. Karras wrote:
>
> - "Aytis de to Ellhnikon eon omaimon te kai omoglwsson kai 0ewn idrymata
> te koina kai 0ysiai h0ea te omotropa, twn prodotas genes0ai A0hnaioys
> oyk an ey exoi."
> A0hnaioi pros Lakedaimonioys, 5os aiwnas pX
>
> - "Ellhnes gar to genos esmen, ws h hmetera glwssa kai paideia martyrei."
> Gewrgios Gemistos Plh0wn, 15os aiwnas mX
>
> - "Ayta ta agalmata, osa talira kai na sas dwsoyn, na mhn katadexthte na
fygoyn
> apo thn patrida mas. Gi' ayta polemhsame."
> Makrygiannhs, 19os aiwnas mX
>
> P K
Panagiotis J. Karras
thn antilhpsh toy. As toy e}hghsw loipon:
> Opws suvn9ws petas apospasmata xwris va apavtas tnv erwtnsn. Perimevw
> dikaiolognsn kai sxoliasmo ws pros tnv evvoia tou e9vous kai ws pros to
> av oi arxaioi Ellnves eixav autn tn suvais9nsn.
Dhladh esy otan diabazeis to prwto apo ta parakatw apospasmata
katalabaineis oti den thn eixan;
> > To zntoumevo eivai va deix9ei oti:
> > (1) oi arxaioi Ellnves 9ewrousav eautous OMOE0NEIS (oxi aplws "Ellnves"
> > alla sugkekrimeva avnkovtes sto idio E0NOS---kai me stoixeia gia to pws
> > akribws evvoeito o oros "e9vos" tote)
Ola osa zhtas periexontai sto 1o apospasma.
Den katalabainw ti moy zhtas na pros0esw.
> > kai (2) to snmerivo "ellnviko e9vos" apotelei suvexeia tou arxaiou
> > ellnvikou (afou prwta dei3oume oti upnr3e to prwto).
Ayto synagetai apo to 2o kai to 3o apospasma.
Pali den }erw ti akribws 0eleis na pros0esw.
> To zntoumevo DEN eivai va deix9ei oti uparxouv apospasmata apo arxaia
> ellnvika keimeva pou va avaferovtai se Ellnves, oute kav oti uparxouv
> apospasmata pou va avaferovtai se omaimov omoglwssov klp. To zntoumevo
> eivai va ermnveu9ouv ta apospasmata pou uparxouv sto katallnlo plaisio,
Dhladh esy 0ewreis oti ta ermhneyw se akatallhlo plaisio; To 1o apospasma
eipw0hke ligo prin th maxh stis Plataies, otan oi synaspismenoi Ellhnes
etoimazotan na antimetwpisoyn toys Perses. Einai meros toy logoy twn
A0hnaiwn poy dikaiologei thn arnhsh toys na symmaxhsoyn me to Mardonio.
To 0ewreis ayto to plaisio asxeto me th syzhthsh mas; Xwris thn ennoia toy
e0noys poios einai kat' ese o logos gia ton opoio oi A0hnaioi den symmaxhsan
me ton Mardonio tote;
To 2o apospasma einai grammeno apo ton filosofo toy Mistra Gewrgio Gemisto
thn epoxh poy h Rwmania katepathto apo toys O0wmanoys. An pisteyeis oti to
plaisio ayto einai asxeto me th syzhthsh mas, tote e}hghse moy se parakalw
ti h0ele telika na pei o Plh0wn.
To 3o apospasma einai grammeno apo to Strathgo Makrygiannh sta
apomhmoneymata toy ligo meta ton apeley0erwtiko agwna kai thn idrysh toy
ellhnikoy kratoys. O Strathgos 0ewrei oti yparxoyn Ellhnes kai h ypar}h
toy ellhnikoy kratoys gia thn opoia polemhse syndeetai me thn ypar}h twn
Ellhnwn. Diaforetika h ypar}h ellhnikoy e0nikoy kratoys einai peritth.
Epishs o Strathgos de leei oti polemhse gia na apalla}ei ton plh0ysmo apo
toys gaiokthmones, na dwsei dikaiwmata stoys emporoys, na meiwsei thn isxy
kapoioy pasa, na antagwnistei 'h na yperaspistei to patriarxeio, 'h otidhpote
allo paromoio, parolo poy de 0a diafwnhsw aparaithta mazi soy an moy peis oti
yphrxan maxhtes poy polemhsan kai gia tetoioys logoys. Leei oti polemhsan
kyriws gia kati allo. Ti einai ayto kata th dikh soy gnwmh;
> va deix9ei oti eivai avtiproswpeutika,
Dhladh esy ta 0ewreis mh antiproswpeytika;
> kai va e3ngn9ei ti akribws evvoouv.
Ti den katalabaineis;
> Av ntav va pairvoume ka9e apospasma tois metrntois etsi
> opws ta petas tote skeyou tis suvepeies twv apospasmatwv apo logous Nazi peri
> Areias fulns (n' mnpws va ta paroume sobara ki ekeiva;)
Dhladh esy 0ewreis oti oi A0hnaioi, o Plh0wn kai o Makrygiannhs lene
psemmata kai oneirofantasies;
> ka9ws kai tis suvepeies twv apospasmatwv peri twv "barbarwv" Makedovwv pou
> toso areskovtai va tsitarouv oi FYROMiavoi (apo tote pou katebaive o Filippos
> aka9ektos kai oi votioi eixav klasei mevtes).
Den blepw kati to asxhmo se tetoia apospasmata.
Phidias Bourlas
>
> Perimevw dikaiolognsn kai sxoliasmo ws pros tnv evvoia tou e9vous kai
> ws pros to av oi arxaioi Ellnves eixav autn tn suvais9nsn.
>
sugkekrimeva apospasmata;
>
> Kai epeidn faivetai exeis
> problnmata katavonsns, va sou to pw kai opws to eipa tou Mpourla:
>
afora stnv suzntnsn mas, eivai ta sugkekrimeva apospasmata, ta opoia
eivai safestata.
>
> To zntoumevo eivai va deix9ei oti
> >(1) oi arxaioi Ellnves
> >9ewrousav eautous OMOE0NEIS (oxi aplws "Ellnves" alla sugkekrimeva avnkovtes
> >sto idio E0NOS---kai me stoixeia gia to pws akribws evvoeito o oros "e9vos"
> >tote)
>
>
> >kai (2) to snmerivo "ellnviko e9vos" apotelei suvexeia tou arxaiou
> >ellnvikou (afou prwta dei3oume oti upnr3e to prwto).
>
>
ta grafoume me mikra;), pavtws egw to grafw me kefalaio "E" outws n'
allws.
>
> keimeva pou va avaferovtai
> se Ellnves, oute kav oti uparxouv apospasmata pou va avaferovtai se omaimov
> omoglwssov klp. To zntoumevo eivai va ermnveu9ouv ta apospasmata pou uparxouv
> kai va e3ngn9ei ti akribws evvoouv.
>
omotropo; Dev eivai safes to vonma twv le3ewv;
>
> Av ntav va pairvoume ka9e apospasma tois metrntois etsi
> opws ta petas tote skeyou tis suvepeies twv apospasmatwv apo logous Nazi peri
> Areias fulns (n' mnpws va ta paroume sobara ki ekeiva;)
>
Ti, av n "Areia" fuln eivai uparktn kai, eav eivai uparktn, eivai
kai "avwtern"; Ma edw dev mas evdiaferouv auta.
Oute ekeivo pou mas evdiaferei eivai kuriws to pw's to evvoei kai
eav exei dikio kai giati o Platwv otav leei (Timaios 23a) "to kallistov
kai aristov gevos [oi Ellnves] ep' av8rwpous ev tn xwra par' umiv" n'
eav pragmati to "Ellnviko sperma" to kataskeuasav o Hfaistos kai n
A8nva (opws leei pali stov "Timaio" o Platwv). 'H eav pronl8ame apo tis
petres pou eispeirav stn gn o Deukaliwv kai n Purra. Dev e3etazoume
edw eav auta eivai aln8eia, stnv kuriole3ia. Ekeivo pou suzntame edw,
kai ekeivo gia to opoio pairvoume apavtnseis apo ta apospasmata pou
para8esame kai ola ta avaloga, eivai n ais8nsn tns koivns katagwgns, n
koivn suveidnsn tns suggeveias, fusikns kai pveumatikns, twv Ellnvwv.
Pw's eviw8av kai ti pisteuav. (Auto isxuei epomevws ave3artntws kai tou
eav eixav dikio va pisteuouv o,ti pisteuav - pou se para polla eixav
kai dikio.)
Edw loipov blepoume safn ais8nsn koivns katagwgns kai suggeveias,
koivwv a3iwv kai idewdwv, upoxrewsewv kai elpidwv. Pragmata pou
basizovtai se koivn 8eogovia, kosmogovia, av8rwpogovia, gn - tnv
Ellnvikn gn tns opoias paidia eivai oi, gngeveis, Ellnves, ierous
topous, idrumata, 8esmous kai paradoseis pavarxaies.
Ti e3ngnseis yaxvei twra o Prwtopapas dev katalabaivw.
>
> ka9ws kai tis suvepeies
> twv apospasmatwv peri twv "barbarwv" Makedovwv pou toso areskovtai va
tsitarouv
> oi FYROMiavoi (apo tote pou katebaive o Filippos aka9ektos kai oi votioi eixav
> klasei mevtes).
>
Auto ti mas leei omws; Oti ntav toso isxurn kai apaitntikn n
idiotns tou Ellnvos, pou akoma kai av eixes ka8e proupo8esn gia
va sou avagvwrizetai, ligo va mnv... sumperiferosouv swsta, dev
to 'xav se tipota va se krivouv ava3iov autns.
>
> 0avasns
> -allou-
>
F.M.
Athanassios Protopapas
>Wraiotata. (Stou koufou tnv porta bebaia...)
> Gia to apo pote kai epi posov, suvexws, uparxouv Ellnves, Ellnvismos
>kai suveidnsn tns Ellnvikotntos, dev 8a eprepe bebaia va exoume kav
>amfibolies.
> Exw pavtws va paratnrnsw kai ta e3ns, se sxesn me tis aitiaseis tou
>Prwtopapa. To eva eivai oti o autoprosdiorismos kai n autosuveidnsia
>twv Ellnvwv ws Ellnvwv, dev ntav kai toso xalarn, opws twv Eurwpaiwv
>ws Eurwpaiwv snmera. Kai, to deutero, ntav malista prosdiorismos, pou
>oxi movo dev perielambave asafws o,ti ki o,ti eteroklnto 8a mporouse
>va favtastei kaveis, alla ntav avti8etws prosdiorismos apaitntikos,
>austnros kai perioristikos. Edw mexri kai ka8ara Ellnvika fula, etsi
>kai dev eixav kai polu... ka8ws prepei profora kai dev ntav kai polu
>ekleptusmeva sav tous A8nvaious, dev to 'xav kai se polu va ta bgalouv
>barbarika.
Kai de mou le re paloukari, av "ta ebgazav barbarika" (de mas les poioi),
dnladn av exoume apospasmata pou leve oti eivai barbarika(***), tote giati
dev ta para9etoume(*) ws eu9ews suvepagomeva tn mn ellnvikotnta tous(**),
alla avti9etws ta(***) 9ewroume "ka9ara ellnvika fula" ; Mnpws giati ektos
apo epnrmevos karagkiozakos eisai kai pavtelws asuvepns kai upostnrizeis o,ti
se boleuei opws se boleuei kai opote se boleuei asxetws apo evoxlntikes
leptomereies (p.x. stoixeia, gegovota, klp) ; Lew, mnpws.....
0avasns
-allou-
(*)ta apospasmata
(**) twv fulwv
(***)ta fula
Michalis Petrakos
>
>
> > Apavtnsn stnv aporia av pisteuw oti ta ellnvika fula dev eixav gevikn
> > autogvwsia...klp.: Oxi. Pisteuw oti eixav alla dev eimai eidikos gia
> > va 3erw av eixav n' oxi.
>
> Dhladh ka0e an0rwpos prepei na exei didaktoriko sthn koinwnikh an0rwpologia
> gia na ftiaxtei ena e0nos; Ekei katalhgei h apaithsh soy...
Oxi Kara mou. Auto pou sou leei o A0anasoulios alla kai ka0e logikos
an0rwpos einai oti gia na proekteineis thn sxetika prosfath ennoia tou e0nous
duo xiliades xronia prin kanei thn emfanish ths 0a prepei toulaxiston na exeis
thn dunatothta na mas e3hghseis ti einai e0nos (ti einai h patrida mas, mhn
ein'oi kampoi, mhn einai t'asparta pshla bouna; klp).
Dhladh, prin mpeis ston kopo na mas analuseis thn e3exontws hli0ia 0ewria
sou peri tou ellhnikou e0nous 0a eprepe na diabaseis ena egxeiridio
koinwnikhs an0rwpologias (0a sou epairne kai ligotero xrono kai 0a se
wfelouse).
Mixalhs Petrakos
Yg. Mpourla m egrapses! To kolpo me ton prokataklusmiaio politismo tou Dia
einai kalutero ki apo thn mpougatsa me gomwsh.
-
Michalis Petrakos
Advanced Methods Sector
Space Applications Institute,
J.R.C. Ispra, T.P. 641,
I-21020, Ispra(VA), Italy.
Tel: +39 332 789593, Fax: +39 332 789803
e-mail: Michalis...@jrc.it,
Panagiotis J. Karras
> >Karra kai Mpourla. As to pw mia fora akoma. To gegovos oti uparxei eva
> >apospasma kapou kapws apo kapoiov pou leei auto pou 9elete va leei de
snmaivei
> >apolutws TIPOTA. (Eutuxws pou dev eiste istorikoi, dustuxws pou vomizete oti
> >mporeite va eiste.) Edw milame gia sobara zntnmata opws n evvoia tns e9vikns
> >suveidnsns, n e9vikn tautotnta, kai n suvexeia tous, kai eseis oi duo lete
> >oute ligo oute polu oti oi apavtnseis SYNAGONTAI eu9ews apo duo-tria epimelws
> >epilegmeva apospasmata.
Exw hdh apanthsei se ayta sto prohgoymeno mhnyma moy. Se parakalw, apanthse
moy. Giati to apofeygeis;
> >Oute apo to "omoglwsso, omotropo, kai omo9rnsko" de suvagetai e9vikn
suveidnsn.
Symfwnw apolyta kai ayto prospa0oysa na sas e}hghsw gia arketo kairo.
Epitelous, paradexthkes oti h legomenh "culture" dhladh ta "h0h / e0h" den
einai arketo stoixeio gia thn xalkeysh e0nikhs syneidhshs, opws 0eloyn na mas
peisoyn shmera diaforoi Amerikanoi kai alloi...
Xairomai poy telika symfwnoyme. Teleia.
Xreiazetai loipon kai to omaimon, kai h koinh katagwgh, thn opoia oi Ellhnes
exoyme, enw oi Latinoamerikanoi kai oi Slaboi p.x. den exoyn.
Kai parathrhse o Basilhs:
> Giati katw apo ton antistoixo kefalaio ths
> ellhnikhs texnhs H filosofias H genika istorias
> diabazw ligo poly gia mnhmeia, filosofies, istories
> pou exoun na kanoun me arketa "ellhnika" fyla,
> kai synagetai emmesws plhn safws to symperasma
> oti ola auta htan ellhnika fyla kai synagw egw
> isws kakws (esy 0a mou peis) oti oloi autoi
> htan ellhnes;;
>
> Loipon, egw mporw na skeftw merika tina:
> a) o syllogismos mou einai la9os. (esy 0a mou peis)
> b) o oroi "ellhnes" kai "ellhnika" fyla einai symbatikos kai de dhlwnei
> fyletikh syggeneia. (den to nomizw)
> c) prokeitai peri mias ellhnikhs propagandas (pou genika
> epikrathse ws krateousa episthmonikh antilhch) gia na exei
> to sygxrono ellhniko kratos aitia ypar3hs. (den to nomizw)
> Mhpws yparxoun kai alles aities;;
Oxi, moy fainetai oti skeftesai poly swsta kai ta eipes ola.
O syllogismos soy einai or0os kai oi oroi aytoi pragmati dhlwnoyn e} orismoy
fyletikh syggeneia.
Pragmati, oloi aytoi htan kai einai Ellhnes, kai ayth einai h aitia ypar}hs
toy ellhnikoy kratoys, h pragmatikh, oxi fantastikh, eite mas aresei eite oxi,
kai eite eimaste synepeis se aythn thn aitia ypar}hs eite oxi.
P K
YG
Ti ba0mo soy ebalan Ek0esh to '87; :-)
Athanassios Protopapas
evvoouses otav eipes oti ka9ara Ellnvika fula mporousav va "ta bgalouv
barbarika"; Kai perimeveis va to pisteyoume; `H exeis (pali) problnma
ekftasns; `H mnpws pio apla diapistwses oti (pali) eipes patata kai
malista autoavairoumevn;
Oso gia ta omoglwssa klp blepw epimeveis kai (pali) 9a fas ta moutra sou.
Perimevw apo auta pou avafereis "omotropov" mexri "ta pavta" va mou peis
ti DEN isxuei gia tous laous tns kevtrikns kai votias Amerikns kai giati,
dedomevwv kai apospasmatwv peri adelfotntas tous apo pampolous "evwtikous",
telika prokeitai gia 3exwrista e9vn (n' av vomizeis oti eivai oloi omoe9veis).
0avasns
-allou-
>H apavtnsn stnv erwtnsn sou eivai aploustatn.
> Ta sugkekrimeva apospasmata ("barbaroi" oi Makedoves kai ta
>paromoia), oxi movo dev ta para8etoume ws eu8ews suvepagomeva tnv
>mn Ellnvikotnta, alla to akribws avti8eto! Idou giati:
> Eav egw prosballw kapoiov (dikaiws n' adikws) me tnv frasn "esu re
>dev eisai a3ios va legesai Ellnvas", apo tnv frasn autn akribws ti
>sumperasma bgaivei; Profavws oti o ubrizomevos eivai Ellnvas, oti kai
>egw to 3erw kai to 8ewrw dedomevo oti eivai Ellnvas, kai tov katngorw
>oti n sumperifora tou dev armozei se evav swsto Ellnva. Profavws omws
>Ellnvas eivai, kai auto faivetai apo tnv frasn ka8ara.
>
> Oso gia tis "evoxlntikes leptomereies (p.x. stoixeia, gegovota)"
>pou les, tis opoies epi troxadnv exoume ndn avaferei (omotropov,
>omo8rnskov, omoglwssov, omaimov, ieroi topoi, idrumata kai 8esmoi,
>avtilnyeis, a3ies, politismos, ta pavta telos pavtwv), autes erxovtai
>eis epirrwsiv akribws twv isxurismwv mou epi tns ermnveias twv
>parate8evtwv apospasmatwv.
>
> F.M.
Panagiotis J. Karras
> Apavtnsn stnv aporia av pisteuw oti ta ellnvika fula dev eixav gevikn
> autogvwsia...klp.: Oxi. Pisteuw oti eixav alla dev eimai eidikos gia
> va 3erw av eixav n' oxi.
Dhladh ka0e an0rwpos prepei na exei didaktoriko sthn koinwnikh an0rwpologia
gia na ftiaxtei ena e0nos; Ekei katalhgei h apaithsh soy...
> Opwsdnpote to 9ema eivai periploko dioti n evvoia tns e9vikns tautotnas
> exei e3elix9ei ektote (av upo9esoume oti upnrxe tote)
Giati den apantas sto mhnyma moy opoy soy deixnw oti yphrxe;
> kai dustuxws oute ep'autou eimai eidikos.
Ton Hrodoto den ton 0ewreis eidiko; Poion 0ewreis eidiko telos pantwn;
> To problnma mou eivai oi apavtaxou KarraMpourles (pou oxi movo dev eivai
> eidikoi
Eimaste oso eidikos htan kai o Makrygiannhs.
> alla exouv pavteln elleiyn suvais9nsns tns aveparkeias tous)
Eprepe na to eleges ayto sthn epitroph poy e0ese to apospasma toy
Makrygiannh ws 0ema ek0esews stis eisithries e}etaseis. H mallon eprepe
na egrafes mia ek0esh tote, sthn opoia 0a yposthrizes oti:
"O Makrygiannhs eixe pantelh elleipsh synais0hshs ths aneparkeias toy.
To idio kai o Hrodotos kai o Gewrgios Gemistos."
> pou upostnrizouv oti sto erwtnma av "oi arxaioi Ellnves 9ewrousav
> eautous omoe9veis kai ti akribws evvoousav me auto" mporoume va dwsoume
> apavtnsn para9etovtas aplws eva n' duo n' tria apospasmata apo arxaia
> ellnvika keimeva.
Blepe parapanw.
> Kai episns eva allo 9ema pou me apasxolei eivai n emmovn orismevwv va
> e3umvouv mia kapoia "ellnvikn paradosn" (parablepovtas parakmes polemous
> xristiavismous buzavtia kai alles 3eftiles)
Paradeigma }eftilas kai parakmhs:
http://www.metmuseum.org/htmlfile/Education/BYZANTIUM/byz_1.html
"Not since the world was made was there ever seen or won so great a
treasure, or so noble or so rich, nor in the time of Alexander, nor in
the time of Charlemagne, nor before, nor after, nor do I think myself
that in the forty richest cities of the world had there been so much
wealth as was found in Constantinople. For the Greeks say that
two-thirds of the wealth of this world is in Constantinople and the
other third scattered throughout the world."
--Robert of Clari, a French crusader who witnessed the pillage of the
city in 1204, describing Constantinople.
> lamprn dia mesou twv aiwvwv kai va prospa9ouv va peisouv eautous kai
> allous oti eivai avwteroi.
Allo pali kai toyto.
> Dnladn eva ka9ara istoriko erwtnma pairvei koivwvikn-politikn snmasia.
> Ti vonma exei telos pavtwv n suvexeia tou ellnvikou e9vous;
An den exei nohma, tote giati pasxizeis na thn aporripseis;
> GIATI eivai toso snmavtikn;
Den }erw. Einai;
> Mnpws giati otav koitame ta snmeriva xalia mas viw9oume
> kati sav avagoula; Mnpws telika briskomaste ws e9vos se "denial";
Den gnwrizw.
> YG. Apo ta parakatw to (c) exei polu ywmi alla to "propagavdas" parapempei
> se mnxavismous kratikns katastolns evw stnv periptwsn mas prokeitai peri
> filellnvikou (ki ellnvikou) daktulou ek dusmwv :-)
Malista. Dhladh otan o Aystriakos Aytokratoras eipe oti "h Ellas einai mono
gewgrafikh ennoia", symmeteixe ston "daktylo"...
> YG2. Av diabazes gia Got9ika fula 9a sumperaives oti oloi ntav Germavoi;
Oxi.
> Ta fula pou perasav apo tn boreioavatolikn Asia stnv Amerikn kai
> egivav oles oi ivdiavikes fules boreias, kevtrikns, kai votias Amerikns
> apotelouv to ivdiaviko e9vos;
Oxi.
> Ti akribws 9a pei "ellnvika fula" telos pavtwv,
8a pei fyla ths Mesogeiakhs fylhs apo to Aigaio poy miloyn ellhnika.
> apo pou futrwsav,
Sigoyra oxi apo thn Oykrania.
> kai pote akribws egivav ellnvika kai katebnkav stnv Ellada;
Arketa prin to 10.000pX, an "katebhkan" pote sthn Ellada.
P K
Athanassios Protopapas
kourasei afavtasta.
> Exw hdh apanthsei se ayta sto prohgoymeno mhnyma moy. Se parakalw, apanthse
>moy. Giati to apofeygeis;
Rwtnsa pws avtilambavovtav oi arxaioi tnv evvoia tou e9vous kai av me
basn autn tnv evvoia 9ewrousav eautous omoe9veis. Apavtnses oti oti n
apavtnsn se ola auta brisketai se eva sugkekrimevo apospasma "pros
Lakedaimovious". Sou episnmaivw oti para9esn apospasmatos DEN
apotelei apavtnsn kai upostnrizeis oti apofeugw va apavtnsw.
Perastika.
>> >Oute apo to "omoglwsso, omotropo, kai omo9rnsko" de suvagetai e9vikn
> suveidnsn.
>
> Symfwnw apolyta kai ayto prospa0oysa na sas e}hghsw gia arketo kairo.
>
> Epitelous, paradexthkes oti h legomenh "culture" dhladh ta "h0h / e0h" den
>einai arketo stoixeio gia thn xalkeysh e0nikhs syneidhshs, opws 0eloyn na mas
>peisoyn shmera diaforoi Amerikanoi kai alloi...
>
> Xairomai poy telika symfwnoyme. Teleia.
>
> Xreiazetai loipon kai to omaimon, kai h koinh katagwgh, thn opoia oi Ellhnes
>exoyme, enw oi Latinoamerikanoi kai oi Slaboi p.x. den exoyn.
Prwtov les blakeies (pali) dioti oi lativoamerikavoi EXOUN to omaimov
(ispavikn katagwgn) ektos av upostnri3eis oti oi kata topous
prosmi3eis me tous gngeveis ivdiavous exouv dnmiourgnsei snmavtikes
"e9vikes" apokliseis para tnv koivn ispavogevn kai ispavoeidn koultoura
pou par'ol'auta epeznse, ara para tnv profavn AFOMOIWSH tous, sumfwva
me ta kritnria SOY kai tnv orologia SOY. Opote 9a eixe evdiaferov va
avatre3oume pali se dnlwseis sou peri ellnvikotntas twv sugxrovwv
Ellnvwv kai va ri3oume (pali) to gelio tns arkoudas.
Pame parakatw sta pio sobara.
Opws sou exei episnmavei o diakopeuwv 40kos, prospa9eis gia mia akomn
fora va diastreblwseis ta grapta twv suvomilntwv sou. Pragmati edw
kai kairo mas les gia tn fuletikn 9ewria tou e9vous. Kai pragmati
ep'autou s'exoume kra3ei diaforoi me paradeigmata kai epixeirnmata ta
opoia dev exouv kataferei va eisxwrnsouv sto kravio sou logw
uperbolikns eswterikns piesns. Apo kei kai pera de blepw pws
"paradextnka" oti n ta "n9n/e9n dev eivai arketo stoixeio gia tn
xalkeusn e9vikns suveidnsns". Prwtov les blakeies (pali---ma giati
epavalambavomai;) dioti gia tn "xalkeusn" eivai kai paraeivai arketo
arkei va eivai kaln n propagavda. Kai av telika milas gia xalkeusn
tosov kairo tote 9a afnsw to Mpourla va se perilabei. Ypo9etw oti
exeis mple3ei ta mpoutia sou pali kai evvoouses oti dev arkouv ta
politismika stoixeia alla xreiazetai kai gevetikn suvexeia gia tov
"episnmo" orismo evos e9vous. Me afnvei adiaforo to zntnma dioti opws
exw e3ngnsei pollakis dev exw kaveva logo va xreiazomai safn orismo
tou e9vous, gevetiko n' allo, etsi wste va mporw va e3airw ap'auto
osous mou mpaivouv stn mutn. Auta ta zoria ta trabas esu. Profavws
kai de sumfwvoume ka9olou loipov kai va stamatnseis autou tou eidous
tis brwmikes texvikes giati mou ka9ovtai ligo straba. Ekeivo pou eipa
kai pou av xrnsimopoiouses tov egkefalo sou 9a katalabaives eivai oti
dev mporei va isxuei auto pou upostnrizei (n' favnke va upostnrizei) o
Mpourlas: oti ta koiva politismika stoixeia kai dnlwseis peri autwv
suvistouv e9vikn tautotnta, poso mallov suveidnsn e9vikns tautotntas.
Dioti av isxue auto tote 9a eixame eviaia e9vikn tautotnta stnv
kevtrikn kai lativikn Amerikn, pragma pou profavws dev isxuei. Kai
bebaia paramevei to bnma tns suveidnsns, pou toso eukola ki esu ki o
Mpourlas parablepete, to opoio DEN suvepagetai oute apo politismikes
oute apo gevetikes paratnrnseis alla epipleov opoioudnpote
epixeirnmatos gia "avtikeimevikn" e9vikn tautotnta apo stoixeia gia to
pws oi av9rwpoi oi idioi avtilambavovtai tnv e9vikn tous 9esn.
Kai merikes ustates prospa9eies akoma:
> Dhladh ka0e an0rwpos prepei na exei didaktoriko sthn koinwnikh an0rwpologia
>gia na ftiaxtei ena e0nos; Ekei katalhgei h apaithsh soy...
Ka9e av9rwpos prepei va exei suveidnsn tns e9vikotntas tou gia va
ftiaxtei eva e9vos. Tipota ligotero kai tipota perissotero. Alla egw
de milnsa gia autous pou sxnmatizouv to e9vos Karra mou. Egw milnsa
gia tous KarraMpourles pou 9ewrouv oti dikaiouvtai apoyns peri e9vous
basismevoi stnv agvoia tous kai tnv texvologikn tous eparsn (blepe PFK
peri pavtogvwsias twv mnxavikwv) ka9ws kai se pevte biblia e3wtikwv
froutwv pou exouv diabasei kai kati arxaia keimeva pou exouv ma9ei va
tsitarouv xwris tnv paramikrn idea peri me9odou istorias,
arxaiologias, koivwviologias, kai av9rwpologias, kai xwris fusika
alles gvwseis sta pedia auta pou eivai aparaitntes gia tnv katavonsn
twv evvoiwv priv kav pame stnv efarmogn twv evvoiwv. Milnsa gia
epnrmevous avontous pou evw exouv proapofasisei gia logous proswpikwv
sumplegmatwv oti eivai avwteroi erxovtai kai mas ta prnzouv me dn9ev
epixeirnmata pou upoti9etai tekmnriwvouv ta proapofasismeva
sumperasmata tous, xwris va avtilambavovtai kav to ba9os twv zntnmatwv
sta opoia upeiserxovtai (profavws afou eivai asxetoi). Milnsa gia
av9rwpakia pou 9ewrouv oti mia protasn parmevn apo eva logo tou
kapoiou aiwva pro Xristou deixvei--apodeikvuei!--ti apoyn eixav oi
arxaioi gia tnv evvoia tou e9vous kai tnv e9vikn tous tautotnta (oxi,
dev eivai afeleia, kakon9ns tsarlatavismos eivai). Pou
sumptwmatika(;) teivouv va eivai ta idia av9rwpakia pou epeidn 3erouv
va milave tn mntrikn tous glwssa vomizouv oti mporouv va exouv kai
apoyn peri glwssologias. H epeidn 3exwrizouv tn xara apo tn lupn kai
katalabaivouv tnv ka9nmerivn evvoia le3ewv opws "mvnmn" kai "avtilnyn"
oti mporouv va exouv apoyn peri yuxologias. H epeidn ntav kaloutsikoi
sto sxoleio kai 9umouvtai tous Dwrieis kai tov Ioustiviavo oti mporouv
va exouv apoyn peri Istorias. Kai paei legovtas, o katalogos dev exei
telos.
Dnladn telika n apaitnsn mou eivai va to boulwseis kai va
asxoln9eis me to plnktrologio sou n' va pas va diabaseis va
3estrabw9eis va deis pws leitourgouv oi biologikes kai oi koivwvikes
epistnmes priv 3avamplexteis me deka kavtaria ufos se suzntnseis gia
fules, glwsses (ellnvikn n' ivdoeurwpaikn), e9vn, kai e9vikes
suveidnseis. Toulaxistov snmera uparxouv ta sxetika stoixeia kai
exeis kai prosbasn, duo snmavtikes diafores sou apo to Makrugiavvn o
opoios episns tuxaivei va eviw9e kai to Tourkiko papari duo povtous
ap'tov kwlo tou alla tetoies mikrodiafores de se sugkivouv eseva
gi'auto kai grafeis oti:
> Eimaste oso eidikos htan kai o Makrygiannhs.
Kai telika to pio ousiastiko zntnma eivai oti, opws exw 3avapei:
>> Dnladn eva ka9ara istoriko erwtnma pairvei koivwvikn-politikn snmasia.
>> Ti vonma exei telos pavtwv n suvexeia tou ellnvikou e9vous;
Sto opoio dev se sumferei bebaia va apavtnseis, kai apofeugeis va
ek9eseis tnv aveparkeia sou me tripla:
> An den exei nohma, tote giati pasxizeis na thn aporripseis;
Dev aporriptw oute tnv upar3n oute tn suvexeia tou ellnvikou e9vous.
Aporriptw to dikaiwma sou va exeis apoyn ep'autwv, aporriptw ta
sa9ra "epixeirnmata" sou opws kai tou Mpourla, aporriptw to
vonma twv perissoterwv erwtnmatwv pou pngazouv ap'autes tis
suzntnseis, aporriptw tis koivwvikes kai politikes "suvepeies" pou
9ewreite oti suvagovtai apo ta "epistnmovika" sumperasmata sas,
kai aporriptw telos esas ws atoma me tnv apodedeigmevn ikavotnta
sas va 9etete to gaidaro mpros ap'to karo kai va upotassete tis
gvwstikes sas leitourgies stis koivwvikes sas bleyeis.
Kai sto katw katw dev eimai se 9esn va aporriyw kammia e9vikn upar3n
n' suvexeia ws mn eidikos sta 9emata auta opws exw 3avapei. Esas omws
kai tis me9odous sas mporw va sas aporriyw ws skeptomevos av9rwpos, ws
eidikos stnv epistnmovikn me9odologia, kai ws Ellnvas me die9vn
orizovta kai me euais9nsies ws pros tnv e9vikn mas eikova sto
e3wteriko tnv opoia amaurwvouv oi astoixeiwtes komple3ares sav kai tou
logou sou. Kai opote petate Mpourdes metamfiesmeves ws epixeirnmata
va exete upoyn sas oti mporei va exw wra kai dia9esn va tis piasw kai
va tis 3eskisw. Kai xwris va exw kammia upoxrewsn va ekferw
epistnmovikn apoyn peri tou avti9etou.
Egiva avtilnptos;
0avasns
-allou-
YG. Kai de xreiazetai va proballeis ki allo tnv "epistnmovikotnta sou":
>> Ti akribws 9a pei "ellnvika fula" telos pavtwv,
>
> 8a pei fyla ths Mesogeiakhs fylhs apo to Aigaio poy miloyn ellhnika.
>
>> apo pou futrwsav,
>
> Sigoyra oxi apo thn Oykrania.
>
>> kai pote akribws egivav ellnvika kai katebnkav stnv Ellada;
>
> Arketa prin to 10.000pX, an "katebhkan" pote sthn Ellada.
Apo POY futrwsav kai TI eivai auto pou ta ekave ellnvika evw priv
dev ntav; H' mnpws o afrikavikos homo erectus ntav prwtoellnviko fulo;
(suggvwmn tns prwtoMesogeiako n9ela va pw, tns "Mesogeiakns fulns" :-))
Vassilis Koutsos
>Apavtnsn stnv aporia av pisteuw oti ta ellnvika fula dev eixav gevikn
>autogvwsia...klp.: Oxi. Pisteuw oti eixav alla dev eimai eidikos gia
>n evvoia tns e9vikns tautotnas exei e3elix9ei ektote (av upo9esoume
Afou den eisai eidikos kai den exeis kai o idios emperistatwmenh
apoch, epetrece mou na 0ewrw san pi0anoterh thn trexousa episthmonikh
apoch.
>mou eivai oi apavtaxou KarraMpourles (pou oxi movo dev eivai eidikoi
>alla exouv pavteln elleiyn suvais9nsns tns aveparkeias tous) pou upostnrizouv
>oti sto erwtnma av "oi arxaioi Ellnves 9ewrousav eautous omoe9veis kai
>ti akribws evvoousav me auto" mporoume va dwsoume apavtnsn para9etovtas
>aplws eva n' duo n' tria apospasmata apo arxaia ellnvika keimeva.
>
>Kai episns eva allo 9ema pou me apasxolei eivai n emmovn orismevwv va
>e3umvouv mia kapoia "ellnvikn paradosn" (parablepovtas parakmes polemous
>xristiavismous buzavtia kai alles 3eftiles) lamprn dia mesou twv aiwvwv
>kai va prospa9ouv va peisouv eautous kai allous oti eivai avwteroi.
Ti 0a pei mia kapoia "ellhnikh paradosh";;
Amfisbhtei kaneis oti
yparxei mia spoudaia ellhnikh paradosh texnhs, politismou, episthmhs;;
proion bebaia sygkekrimenwn sygkhriwn, peristasewn kai enos
dianohtikou fluctuation pou symbainei isws ka0e 10000 xronia.
Oudemia sxesh me gonidia klpklp.
Gia to xristianismo kai to byzantio egw den exw arnhtikh apoch
opws esy, alla auto einai mia allh istoria.
Fysika kai ola den htan ola lampra, fysika exoun ginei 3eftiles
(olwn twn eidwn), fysika exoun ginei kai pramata gia ta
opoia 0a eprepe na ntrepomaste (opws kai gia to shmerino
mas geniko xali), alla auto de shmainei oti 0a prepei
na eimaste arnhtes mias paradosews kai na arnoumaste
kai ta autonohta.
Me fainetai oti etsi pianeis to allo akro apo auto
pou kathgoreis kai eisai to idio katadikasteos.
>Dnladn eva ka9ara istoriko erwtnma pairvei koivwvikn-politikn snmasia.
>Ti vonma exei telos pavtwv n suvexeia tou ellnvikou e9vous; GIATI eivai
>toso snmavtikn; Mnpws giati otav koitame ta snmeriva xalia mas viw9oume
>kati sav avagoula; Mnpws telika briskomaste ws e9vos se "denial";
H arxaioplh3ia katadikastea,
alla ti na kanoume exoume ena parel0on pou exei
mia kapoia a3ia telos pantwn.
H genikh mou ektimhsh apo to ligo pou ka0hsa sto e3wteriko einai
oti apo tous 3enous (eidika apo gallous kai germanous)
ektimatai mallon perissotero apo tous 3enous
para apo emas tous neoellhnes.
>
>0avasns
>-allou-
>
>
>YG. Apo ta parakatw to (c) exei polu ywmi alla to "propagavdas" parapempei
> se mnxavismous kratikns katastolns evw stnv periptwsn mas prokeitai peri
> filellnvikou (ki ellnvikou) daktulou ek dusmwv :-)
Dhl. ti;; gia e3hghse to auto, den to 'piasa.
>
>YG2. Av diabazes gia Got9ika fula 9a sumperaives oti oloi ntav Germavoi;
> Ta fula pou perasav apo tn boreioavatolikn Asia stnv Amerikn kai
> egivav oles oi ivdiavikes fules boreias, kevtrikns, kai votias Amerikns
> apotelouv to ivdiaviko e9vos; (kai gia ivdiavikn texvn diabazoume,
> swsta;) Ti akribws 9a pei "ellnvika fula" telos pavtwv, apo pou
> futrwsav, kai pote akribws egivav ellnvika kai katebnkav stnv Ellada;
fantazomai, oti to omoglwsson, omo0rhskon, oi Mhdikoi polemoi,
oi diafores parapompes
pou deixnoun oti 0ewrousan ton eauto tous tou idiou as poume genous
pros ta ekei teinoun. Ki emena toulaxiston me ikanopoioun
(filosofikws, ouxi sexoulikws :-) ).
Twra gia leptomereies, apo pou katebhkan, ti ekanan klpklp.
den eimai eidikos. Pantos ena aplo egxeiridio istorias
(oxi kati fobera e3eidikeumeno)
mallon 0a sou eleine thn aporia.
>
>
>>Bre 0anash, exw mia aplh aporia
>>(disclaimer prwta: den eimai eidikos, auto pou les
>>to 0ewrousa ligo-poly autonohto (kakws isws)).
>>Pisteueis dhl. oti ta "ellhnika" (eisagwgika
>>giati auto dierunoume) fyla den eixan
>>estw kai mia genikh autognwsia ths koinhs ligo-polu
>>katagwghs kai syggeneias tous, de 0ewrousan oti moirazontan
>>kati pou tous 3exwrize apo tous allous;;
>>An oxi, mporeis na mou e3hghseis kati.
>>Egw mono genika biblia peri texnhs kai filosofias
>>kai ligo istorias
>>exw diabasei. Kai erwtw:
>>Giati katw apo ton antistoixo kefalaio ths
>>ellhnikhs texnhs H filosofias H genika istorias
>>diabazw ligo poly gia mnhmeia, filosofies, istories
>>pou exoun na kanoun me arketa "ellhnika" fyla,
>>kai synagetai emmesws plhn safws to symperasma
>>oti ola auta htan ellhnika fyla kai synagw egw
>>isws kakws (esy 0a mou peis) oti oloi autoi
>>htan ellhnes;;
>>
>>Loipon, egw mporw na skeftw merika tina:
>>a) o syllogismos mou einai la9os. (esy 0a mou peis)
>>b) o oroi "ellhnes" kai "ellhnika" fyla einai symbatikos kai de dhlwnei
>>fyletikh syggeneia. (den to nomizw)
>>c) prokeitai peri mias ellhnikhs propagandas (pou genika
>>epikrathse ws krateousa episthmonikh antilhch) gia na exei
>>to sygxrono ellhniko kratos aitia ypar3hs. (den to nomizw)
>>Mhpws yparxoun kai alles aities;;
>>
>>Basilhs
>
Basilhs
Abdullah the Butcher
>
> At 01:52 =EC=EC 22/7/1998 -0700, you wrote:
> >Apavtnsn stnv aporia av pisteuw oti ta ellnvika fula dev eixav gevikn
> >autogvwsia...klp.: Oxi. Pisteuw oti eixav alla dev eimai eidikos gia
> >va 3erw av eixav n' oxi. Opwsdnpote to 9ema eivai periploko dioti
> >n evvoia tns e9vikns tautotnas exei e3elix9ei ektote (av upo9esoume
> >oti upnrxe tote) kai dustuxws oute ep'autou eimai eidikos. To problnma
>
> Afou den eisai eidikos kai den exeis kai o idios emperistatwmenh
> apoch, epetrece mou na 0ewrw san pi0anoterh thn trexousa episthmonikh
> apoch.
Epeidn eivai deytern fora pou epikaleisai tnv "trexousa epistnmovikn
apojn" av kai 3eka9ara dev exeis idea poso apomakrysmevn apo tis
aplo.i.kes evvoies pou (fysika :-) ma9aivoume oloi sto sxoleio eivai sto
9ema e9vikns kai e9votikns (oxi idiaitera diadedomevos o oros alla dev
3erw kalytero tropo va 3exwrisw to "ethnic" apo to "national") syveidnsns,
ti snmaivei snmera kai ti (av) snmaive sto parel9ov pare mia lista
bibliografias gia to 9ema apo eva apo ta polla ma9nmata pou prosferovtai
stov tomea apo ta pavepistnmia ava tov kosmo. Av pragmatika evdiaferesai
kai eykaireis eimai sigouros pws kai ekei pou eisai mporeis va
parakolou9nseis eva tetoio ma9nma:
Gia to ti snmaivouv oi oroi e9vos/e9vikotnta se sxesn me tnv movterva
istoria:
Anderson, Benedict: Imagined Communities, Verso, 1996
Erikson, Th. Hylland: Ethnicity and Nationalism, Pluto Press, 1993
Gelner, Ernest: Nations and Nationalism, Basil Blackwell, 1993
Miall, Hugh: Shaping the New Europe, Pinter Publisher, 1993
Smith, Anthony D.: Nations and Nationalism in a Global Era, Polity Press, 1995
Smith, Anthony D.: National Identity, Penguin, 1991
Smith, Anthony D.: Theories of Nationalism, 2nd ed. 1983
Hobsbawm, Eric J.: Nations and Nationalism since 1780, CUP, 2nd ed. 1992
Kedourie, Elie: Nationalism, 4th expanded ed. 1993
Snyder, Louis L.: Encyclopedia of Nationalism, 1990
Snyder, Louis L.: Varieties of Nationalism, 1976
Kohn, Hans: The Idea of Nationalism, 1944, reissued 1967
Rex, John and Mason, David (eds.): Theories of Race and Ethnic Relations,
CUP, 1988
Greenfeld, Liah: Nationalism, 1992
Lukacs, John: The End of the Twentieth Century and the End of the Modern
Age, 1993
Seton-Watson, Hugh: Nations and States, 1977
Deutsch, Karl W.: Nationalism and Social Communication, 2nd ed., 1965
Deutsch, Karl W.: Tides Among Nations, 1979
Deutsch, Karl W.: Interdisciplinary Bibliography on Nationalism, 1956
kai osov afora tous arxaious eva sxetika prosfato biblio apo to CUP:
Hall, Jonathan M.: Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity, CUP, 1997
Twra bebaia av o ka9e Bourlamevos :-) s' aytn tn lista avti va ka9etai va
papagalizei tn Dada (TM Fykos) ka9otav va diabasei estw kai kati ligo re
gamwto apo ta parapavw (ta opoia parempiptovtws de symfwvouv se ola
alla sta sigoura dev eivai tou sxolikou epipedou pou mas serbiretai
stn lista) isws va mn mas zalize tov erwta epi ka9nmerivns basns kai va
mporouse va exei kai mia pio sobarn stasn sto olo 9ema pera apo ta
proaiwvia klp. Bebaia mporei ola ta parapavw va eivai aplws kommati
tns die9vous siwvistikns syvomwsias :-) va pvigei o Ellnvismos stn
sykofavtia. ;-> Leptomereies sto topiko parartnma tns mystikns rabbivikns
biblio9nkns tns Zyrixns...
Ayta apo eva mn eidiko me
epigvwsn tns agvoias tou
Abdul
PS> Twra giati exasa tnv wra mou va ta steilw ayta 9elw va 3erw - stou
e9elousiws koufou tnv porta oso 9eleis brovta...
Phidias Bourlas
va to kavw - sumplegmatismo, oinsn, kompasmo, avonsia, kai pavtws
apwleia yuxraimias, tetoia pou eixame va apolausoume apo tis apeirou
kallous epoxes tou aeimvnstou "Meviou" Koutsogiwrga ("dev dikaious8e
dia va omileite"):
Grafei o Protopapas (apeu8uvomevos stov Karra):
[...avousies ekdnlwseis apwleias yuxraimias...]
Katalngwv me to e3ns amimnto:
>
> Dev aporriptw oute tnv upar3n oute tn suvexeia tou ellnvikou e9vous.
>
Alla:
>
> Aporriptw to dikaiwma sou va exeis apoyn ep'autwv
>
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Katopiv toutou zntame suvtetrimmevoi suggvwmn pou tolmnsame va
exoume apoyn gia to E8vos!!!
>
> Egiva avtilnptos;
>
Apolutws.
>
> 0avasns
>
F.M.
Phidias Bourlas
>
> pare mia lista bibliografias gia to 9ema apo eva apo ta polla
> ma9nmata pou prosferovtai stov tomea apo ta pavepistnmia ava tov
> kosmo.
> istoria:
Xasapn, exeis va prosfereis tipota xrnsimo stn suzntnsn; Evvow
apoyeis, kriseis, gvwmes epi twv zntnmatwv pou 8igovtai. (Eav gia
tis apoyeis autes diveis kai parapompes stnv bibliografia, toso
to kalutero.) Telos pavtwv pes mas ti pisteueis gia to 8ema. Mas
evdiaferei polu va se akousoume kai 8a mas kaveis megaln xarn.
Eidallws, to va stelveis 3ekarfwta kai xwris sxoliasmo oloklnro tov
katalogo tns Biblio8nkns tou Kogkressou, tis mikres aggelies n' tov
tnlefwviko katalogo tou OTE, dev blepw ti e3upnretei.
>
> Abdul
>
F.M.
Phidias Bourlas
>
> 0a asteieuesai bebaia. To "esu re dev eisai a3ios va legesai Ellnvas"
> evvoouses otav eipes oti ka9ara Ellnvika fula mporousav va "ta bgalouv
> barbarika";
>
deiktn vonmosuvns oti evvoousa. Gia tous Makedoves kai alles avaloges
ligo-polu periptwseis, ti episteueto, ti evvoeito kai ti elegeto, kai
pw's kai giati, kai gvwsto se gevikes grammes eivai, kai eukola mporei
va brei kaveis sto Diktuo sxetika stoixeia, kai stn lista exei
avalu8ei kata kairous epistamevws. Eav pavtws 8eleis, va mpw stov
kopo va epavaprow8nsw merika apo osa evdiaferovta kai katatopistika
exouv graftei.
>
> Kai perimeveis va to pisteyoume; `H exeis (pali) problnma ekftasns;
>
Diko mou "problnma ekfrasns" n' diko sou problnma katavonsns;
>
> `H mnpws pio apla diapistwses oti (pali) eipes patata kai
> malista autoavairoumevn;
>
H movn patata edw pera eivai n upermege8ns ekeivn, tnv opoia
koubalas pavw apo tous wmous sou. Alla pw's va avairesw kati pou eipa,
otav pote dev mas e3ngeis giati 8a eprepe va to kavw, otav apofeugeis
va apavtas eu8ews sta erwtnmata pou ti8evtai (toso sta dika mou oso
kai se auta tou Karra), kai to movo pou kaveis eivai va xtupiesai
epideiktika kraugazovtas tis uperfiales avonsies tou stul: "Aporriptw
to dikaiwma sou va exeis apoyn ep'autwv" (sic) !!!
>
> Oso gia ta omoglwssa klp blepw epimeveis kai (pali) 9a fas ta moutra sou.
>
Egw eipa auta pou eipa, apavtnseis dev pnra, o vowv voeitw.
>
> Perimevw apo auta pou avafereis "omotropov" mexri "ta pavta" va mou peis
> ti DEN isxuei gia tous laous tns kevtrikns kai votias Amerikns kai giati,
> dedomevwv kai apospasmatwv peri adelfotntas tous apo pampolous "evwtikous",
> telika prokeitai gia 3exwrista e9vn (n' av vomizeis oti eivai oloi omoe9veis).
>
Ti 8eleis va sou pw gia tous Ivdiavous; Egw sou eipa ti isxuei gia
tous Ellnves (plnv omws esu poieis tnv vnssav). Amfisbnteis kati apo
auta; Kai giati;
Gia tous Ivdiavous dev gvwrizw ti isxuei, oute gvwrizw ti leve oi
avafer8evtes "evwtikoi", oute blepw ti sxesn exei. Eav vomizeis oti to
8ema tns e8vikns suveidnsews twv Ivdiavwv n' twv kovkistadorwv n' dev
3erw poiwv, exei evdiaferov, dev exeis para va mas to avaptu3eis.
F.M.
Phidias Bourlas
> > Leei o A0anassios:
> >
> > > Apavtnsn stnv aporia av pisteuw oti ta ellnvika fula dev eixav gevikn
> > > autogvwsia...klp.: Oxi. Pisteuw oti eixav alla dev eimai eidikos gia
> > > va 3erw av eixav n' oxi.
> >
an0rwpologia
> > gia na ftiaxtei ena e0nos; Ekei katalhgei h apaithsh soy...
>
> an0rwpos
>
teleutaious;
>
> einai oti gia na proekteineis thn sxetika prosfath ennoia tou e0nous
> duo xiliades xronia prin kanei thn emfanish ths
>
sas e3ngnse pou' (kata tnv gvwmn tou fusika, kai kata tnv gvwmn oswv
epikalestnke tis marturies tous) basizotav, poia ntav kai ti evvoia
eixe n e8vikn tautotnta kai suveidnsn twv arxaiwv (kai vewterwv)
Ellnvwv. (Autn n e8vikn tautotnta kai suveidnsn pou eixav ekeivoi
tote.) Se auta dev eida va apavtnse kaveis. Ti vonma exei twra ti allo
kai pou' allou...
>
> 0a prepei toulaxiston na exeis
> thn dunatothta na mas e3hghseis ti einai e0nos (ti einai h patrida mas, mhn
> ein'oi kampoi, mhn einai t'asparta pshla bouna; klp).
>
pou eixav ep' autou oi arxaioi Ellnves. Ekeivo pou perimevoume, gia va
apoktnsei evdiaferov n suzntnsn, eivai apoyeis ws pros to eav oi 8eseis
autes tou Karra n' twv arxaiwv Ellnvwv (oi sugkekrimeves 8eseis twv
sugkekrimevwv pou avefer8nsav) eivai or8es n' oxi kai giati.
>
> Mixalhs Petrakos
>
> Yg. Mpourla m egrapses! To kolpo me ton prokataklusmiaio politismo tou Dia
> einai kalutero ki apo thn mpougatsa me gomwsh.
>
Xairomai pou ta brnkate evdiaferovta. 8a steilw ki alla.
>
> Michalis Petrakos
>
F.M.
Phidias Bourlas
> [...]
> Kai sto katw katw dev eimai se 9esn va aporriyw kammia e9vikn upar3n
> n' suvexeia ws mn eidikos sta 9emata auta opws exw 3avapei.
>
>
> Esas omws kai tis me9odous sas mporw va sas aporriyw
>
!
>
> ws skeptomevos av9rwpos,
>
!!
>
> ws eidikos stnv epistnmovikn me9odologia,
>
!!!
>
> kai ws Ellnvas me die9vn orizovta
>
!!!!
>
> kai me euais9nsies ws pros tnv e9vikn mas eikova sto e3wteriko.
>
!!!!!
Kai meta apo olov auto tov e3avtlntiko kataigismo diaknru3ewv peri
tns epistnmovikns tou suvepeias, katalngei 8riambeutika o Prwtopapas
me evav epilogo, o opoios, avapofeukta, prokalei tnv klassikn kai
akatamaxntn apavtnsn:
>
> Kai opote petate Mpourdes metamfiesmeves ws epixeirnmata
> va exete upoyn sas oti mporei va exw wra kai dia9esn va tis piasw kai
> va tis 3eskisw.
>
Prose3e movo mnv (3e)skiseis kai kava kalsov.
>
> 0avasns
> -allou-
>
F.M.
Petros Petropoulos
>> Yg. Mpourla m egrapses! To kolpo me ton prokataklusmiaio politismo tou Dia
>> einai kalutero ki apo thn mpougatsa me gomwsh.
>>
> Xairomai pou ta brnkate evdiaferovta. 8a steilw ki alla.
Bourla, mn ksexaseis va mas evnmerwseis kai gia tnv proodo twv ereuvwv
sto EMP me 0ema ta eurnmata pou efere o Matiebits priv merika xrovia
(ekeiva pou apodeikvyouv oti oi Ellnves eixav ftasei stn Notio Amerikn).
Mpas ki o Karras eivai evas apo ekeivous tous eksexovtes pou eixav avalabei
tnv emperistatwmevn ereuva ?
Petros
Athanassios Protopapas
>> Perimevw apo auta pou avafereis "omotropov" mexri "ta pavta" va mou peis
>> ti DEN isxuei gia tous laous tns kevtrikns kai votias Amerikns kai giati,
>> dedomevwv kai apospasmatwv peri adelfotntas tous apo pampolous "evwtikous",
>> telika prokeitai gia 3exwrista e9vn (n' av vomizeis oti eivai oloi
omoe9veis).
>>
> Ti 8eleis va sou pw gia tous Ivdiavous; Egw sou eipa ti isxuei gia
>tous Ellnves (plnv omws esu poieis tnv vnssav). Amfisbnteis kati apo
>auta; Kai giati;
> Gia tous Ivdiavous dev gvwrizw ti isxuei, oute gvwrizw ti leve oi
>avafer8evtes "evwtikoi", oute blepw ti sxesn exei. Eav vomizeis oti to
>8ema tns e8vikns suveidnsews twv Ivdiavwv n' twv kovkistadorwv n' dev
>3erw poiwv, exei evdiaferov, dev exeis para va mas to avaptu3eis.
>
> F.M.
Gia tous laous tns kevtrikns kai votias Amerikns lew, tous ispavofwvous,
omoglwssous-omotropous-omo9rnskous klp klp gia tous opoious o Tse kai oi
suv autw zntousav tnv politikn evwsn. O,ti akribws stoixeia pare9eses
kai gia tnv e9vikn evotnta twv arxaiwv Ellnvwv dnladn. Alla molis pnres
xampari poso de se pairvei apofasises oti avaferomai stous INDIANOYS!!
Ta 9erma mou sugxarntnria!
0avasns
-allou-
YG. Gia va mn mporeis va kaveis pali to blaka:
Eipes oti dedomevou tou omoglwssou-omotropou-omo9rnskou klp twv diaforwv
arxaiwv Ellnvwv kai dedomevwv apospasmatwv me dnlwseis peri omo-geveias
sumperaivoume oti oloi apotelousav eva e9vos (me tn snmerivn snmasia pou
mporeis va diabaseis poia eivai stn bibliografia pou sou ekave tn xarn
o Xasapns va brei gia seva). Loipov bazoume "sugxrovos Lativoamerikavos"
opou "arxaios Ellnvas" sto epixeirnma sou kai briskoume oti oi katoikoi tns
Ovdouras eivai omoe9veis me tous Xiliavous. Kai meta trexoume oso pio
grngora mporoume :-) (gia tnv avagwgn se atopo exeis 3avakousei;)
Athanassios Protopapas
>apoch, epetrece mou na 0ewrw san pi0anoterh thn trexousa episthmonikh
>apoch.
Apolutws. Parakalw. Dustuxws me prolabe o xasapns kai sou eipe va
ma9eis prwta tnv trexousa epistnmovikn apoyn kai meta va tn 9ewrnseis
pi9avotern priv sou to pw egw. Eutuxws me prolabe me bibliografia
dioti egw to polu apo tn lista tou va 3erw duo tria biblia kai 9a sou
suvistousa va ya3eis movos sou.
Se proeidopoiw oti n trexousa epistnmovikn apoyn oudemia sxesn exei
me tis KaraMpourleies trixes kai mallov teivei pros auta pou o Mpourlas
aporriptei ws veomar3istika (n' palaiomar3istika; who gives a fuck?)
upostnrizovtas oti evw alla e9vn pragmati plastnkav to dekato evato
aiwva sumfwvws pros tis epitages twv gallwv filosofwv (n' kati tetoio)
emeis dev exoume sxesn me auta dioti uparxoume ws e9vos apo katabolns
kosmou (n' kati tetoio).
Opote labe ta metra sou.
>Me fainetai oti etsi pianeis to allo akro apo auto
>pou kathgoreis kai eisai to idio katadikasteos.
>H arxaioplh3ia katadikastea,
>alla ti na kanoume exoume ena parel0on pou exei
>mia kapoia a3ia telos pantwn.=20
Oxi agapnte mou. Dev exouME tipota. Oi arxaioi Ellnves eixav mia
a3ia klp klp kammia avtirrnsn. Emeis, esu ki egw ki o Mpourlas kai oi
upoloipoi, DEN EXOYME tipota ap'auta. Exoume movo auta pou bazoume tov
kwlo mas katw va petuxoume me douleia, idrwta kai aima pou leve. Afnste
katw tis 3eves dafves epitelous kai breste evav tropo va dwsete a3ia
stov eauto sas apo movoi sas.
>H genikh mou ektimhsh apo to ligo pou ka0hsa sto e3wteriko einai
>oti apo tous 3enous (eidika apo gallous kai germanous)
>ektimatai mallon perissotero apo tous 3enous
>para apo emas tous neoellhnes.
Ektimatai n arxaia ellnvikn istoria, oxi n mizeria tou sugxrovou
Neoellnva. Kai bebaia ektimatai perissotero dioti otav egw paw va skayw
stov knpo mou va balw vtomaties kai mou bgaivei aggeio ellnvistikns epoxns
nlikias duo xiliadwv etwv pavw katw evw o Gallos skabei kai briskei xwma
kai pali xwma, e, pws va to kavoume, ektimatai! (Pes kati gia to pws
auto mou divei a3ia kai 9a sou 9umisw ta karagkiozilikia twv Tourkwv
me tnv "tourkikn istoria" pou diafnmizouv sta touristika tous fulladia)
>>YG. Apo ta parakatw to (c) exei polu ywmi alla to "propagavdas" parapempei
>> se mnxavismous kratikns katastolns evw stnv periptwsn mas prokeitai peri
>> filellnvikou (ki ellnvikou) daktulou ek dusmwv :-)
>
>Dhl. ti;; gia e3hghse to auto, den to 'piasa.
De 9a ovomaza propagavda to va grafei kapoios romavtikos sto lovdreziko
salovi tou gia tous apogovous tou Swkratn pou upoferouv tis barbarotntes
twv o9wmavwv. Mallov afeleia 9a to ovomaza. Bebaia meta epiase stnv
Eurwpn (kai telika mas 3elaspwsav giati movoi mas 9a eixame fagw9ei kai
9a eixame parei tov poulo tou Impranm) kai xrnsimopoin9nke eurews argotera
kai apo tov (ellnviko) kratiko mnxavismo. Alla tote alles katastaseis,
tromern avomoiogeveia pln9usmwv, paizovtav ektaseis kai kampoi kai limavia
kai potamia, alliws ta pragmata, eipame. Kati eprepe va parasxe9ei gia va
givei n e9vikn sugkollnsn.
0avasns
-allou-
Michalis Petrakos
> > an0rwpos
> >
> Dieukrivizeis se parakalw eav o "A8avasoulios" perilambavetai stous
> teleutaious;
>
> > einai oti gia na proekteineis thn sxetika prosfath ennoia tou e0nous
> > duo xiliades xronia prin kanei thn emfanish ths
> >
> Apo tnv polln proektasn bgnkes ektos gnpedou Petrako.
Mpourla, blepw oti meta apo 4 xronia sthn hellas exeis arxisei na apoktas mia
kapoioa dosh humor(estw kai ligo krua), sthn arxh aplws trelainosouna apo tis
mpoufles kai efernes gurobolies gurw apo ton eauto sou. Me luph mou omws
sou lew oti 0eleis polu prospa0eia akomh.
>O Karras
> sas e3ngnse pou' (kata tnv gvwmn tou fusika, kai kata tnv gvwmn oswv
> epikalestnke tis marturies tous) basizotav, poia ntav kai ti evvoia
> eixe n e8vikn tautotnta kai suveidnsn twv arxaiwv (kai vewterwv)
> Ellnvwv. (Autn n e8vikn tautotnta kai suveidnsn pou eixav ekeivoi
> tote.) Se auta dev eida va apavtnse kaveis. Ti vonma exei twra ti allo
> kai pou' allou...
Mpourdes Mpourla. Ka0e e0nos (Nation) exei shmera orismena xarakthristika.
O Karras mporei na leei tis kotsanes tou, opws kai o peripteras ths geitonias
mou pou mou e3hgouse oti oi Amerikanoi den einai e0nos. Par'ola auta den
mporei na peisei kanena oti oi arxaioi ellhnes sugkrotousan e0nos. An mh ti
allo, h ennoia tou e0nous einai polu pio prosfath apo autous.
Hint. Prin ton galliko diafwtismo oi galloi den htan e0nos, htan uphkooi enos
basilia.
> > 0a prepei toulaxiston na exeis
> > thn dunatothta na mas e3hghseis ti einai e0nos (ti einai h patrida mas, mhn
> > ein'oi kampoi, mhn einai t'asparta pshla bouna; klp).
> >
> Ma vomizw oti e3efrase safws toso tnv dikn tou 8esn oso kai tnv 8esn
> pou eixav ep' autou oi arxaioi Ellnves. Ekeivo pou perimevoume, gia va
> apoktnsei evdiaferov n suzntnsn, eivai apoyeis ws pros to eav oi 8eseis
> autes tou Karra n' twv arxaiwv Ellnvwv (oi sugkekrimeves 8eseis twv
> sugkekrimevwv pou avefer8nsav) eivai or8es n' oxi kai giati.
Oi arxaioi ellhnes den etopo0etounto epi tou zhthmatos, dioti den
antimetwpizan tetoio zhthma kai tetoio zori. To mono pragmatika endiaferon
0ema einai giati esu o Karras kai upoxrewtikh ekpaideush sthn Ellada exoun
tetoia mania me thn sunexeia tou ellhnikou e0nous.
Eixa thn entupwsh oti ka0e kratos me ba0ies rizes sthn istoria ekane to idio
(epleke thn istoria tou topou me ton e0niko tou mu0o) kai to 0ewrousa fusiko.
Erxomenos omws sthn Italia me ekplh3h suneidhtopoihsa oti oi an0rwpoi den
0ewroun eautous apogonous twn Rwmaiwn kai kanena zori den trabane gia thn
katagwgh tous. Se anti0esh me tis psuxwtikes korwnes pou paizoun sthn
Ellada. Sthn Italia tetoies paidariwdeis xazomares elegan oi an0rwpoi mono
sthn epoxh tou Mousolini, oute prin, oute meta.
>
> >
> > Mixalhs Petrakos
> >
> > Yg. Mpourla m egrapses! To kolpo me ton prokataklusmiaio politismo tou Dia
> > einai kalutero ki apo thn mpougatsa me gomwsh.
> >
> Xairomai pou ta brnkate evdiaferovta. 8a steilw ki alla.
Sto Mpigk-Mpangk stamatas etsi;
Mixalhs Petrakos
Yg. Anti na loidwreis ton Xasaph pou ekane ton kopo na sou steilei prosfath
bibliografia tou xwrou ths koinwnikhs an0rwpologias kala 0a ekanes na ton
eugnwmoneis kai na pas na pareis kanena apo auta ta biblia na 3estrabw0eis.
Vassilis Koutsos
>"O Vassilis Koutsos egraje:"
>>
>> At 01:52 =EC=EC 22/7/1998 -0700, you wrote:
>> >autogvwsia...klp.: Oxi. Pisteuw oti eixav alla dev eimai eidikos gia
>> >n evvoia tns e9vikns tautotnas exei e3elix9ei ektote (av upo9esoume
>> >oti upnrxe tote) kai dustuxws oute ep'autou eimai eidikos. To problnma
>>
>> apoch, epetrece mou na 0ewrw san pi0anoterh thn trexousa episthmonikh
>> apoch.
>
>apojn" av kai 3eka9ara dev exeis idea poso apomakrysmevn apo tis
>aplo.i.kes evvoies pou (fysika :-) ma9aivoume oloi sto sxoleio eivai sto
Den epikalesthka ka0olou auta pou ma0ame sta sxoleia.
Epikalesrhka oti sta genika biblia, filosofias, texnhs kai istorias
diafenetai emmesws plhn safws mia kapoia syggeneia
sta ellhnika fyla. Den isxyristhka se kammia periptwsh oti
ta ellhnika fyla eixan diamorfwnenh safws e0nikh syneidhsh
me thn ennoia pou yparxei twra. 0a me fainotane allwste para3eno
na exoun kati ta ellhnika fyla pou ligo-poly exei dhmiourgh0ei
poly argotera. Alla telos pantwn mia kapoia (estw xalarh) syneidhsh
ths syggeneias tous (pou ekfrazotan px. me thn apostrofh tous stous
"allous" tous barbarous) *nomizw* eixan. An diafwneis m'auto pou
lew, *diafwthse* me. Dhl. isxyrhzesai (gia na katalabw) px. oti allo
"e0nos" Spartiates, allo "e0nos" A0hnaioi;;
>9ema e9vikns kai e9votikns (oxi idiaitera diadedomevos o oros alla dev
>3erw kalytero tropo va 3exwrisw to "ethnic" apo to "national") syveidnsns,
>ti snmaivei snmera kai ti (av) snmaive sto parel9ov pare mia lista
yponoeis oti allo tote, allo twra. Ma symfwnw.
0a tolmousa na pw oti einai la0os na milame gia e0nos ekeina
ta xronia (mporei na kanw kai la0os), poia einai h dikia sou
h apoch;;;
>bibliografias gia to 9ema apo eva apo ta polla ma9nmata pou prosferovtai
>stov tomea apo ta pavepistnmia ava tov kosmo. Av pragmatika evdiaferesai
>kai eykaireis eimai sigouros pws kai ekei pou eisai mporeis va
>parakolou9nseis eva tetoio ma9nma:
>
>Gia to ti snmaivouv oi oroi e9vos/e9vikotnta se sxesn me tnv movterva
>istoria:
>
>Anderson, Benedict: Imagined Communities, Verso, 1996
>
>Erikson, Th. Hylland: Ethnicity and Nationalism, Pluto Press, 1993
>
>Gelner, Ernest: Nations and Nationalism, Basil Blackwell, 1993
>
>Miall, Hugh: Shaping the New Europe, Pinter Publisher, 1993
>
>Smith, Anthony D.: Nations and Nationalism in a Global Era, Polity Press, 1995
>
>Smith, Anthony D.: National Identity, Penguin, 1991
>
>Smith, Anthony D.: Theories of Nationalism, 2nd ed. 1983
>
>Hobsbawm, Eric J.: Nations and Nationalism since 1780, CUP, 2nd ed. 1992
>
>Kedourie, Elie: Nationalism, 4th expanded ed. 1993
>
>Snyder, Louis L.: Encyclopedia of Nationalism, 1990
>
>Snyder, Louis L.: Varieties of Nationalism, 1976
>
>Kohn, Hans: The Idea of Nationalism, 1944, reissued 1967
>
>Rex, John and Mason, David (eds.): Theories of Race and Ethnic Relations,
> CUP, 1988
>
>Greenfeld, Liah: Nationalism, 1992
>
>Lukacs, John: The End of the Twentieth Century and the End of the Modern
> Age, 1993
>
>Seton-Watson, Hugh: Nations and States, 1977
>
>Deutsch, Karl W.: Nationalism and Social Communication, 2nd ed., 1965
>
>Deutsch, Karl W.: Tides Among Nations, 1979
>
>Deutsch, Karl W.: Interdisciplinary Bibliography on Nationalism, 1956
>
>kai osov afora tous arxaious eva sxetika prosfato biblio apo to CUP:
>
>Hall, Jonathan M.: Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity, CUP, 1997
endiaferon fainetai auto. Pragmati, den gnwrizw polla gia to 0ema.
Pantws, anefera safws thn *entypwsh* mou, rwtaw eu0arsws einai
swsth h la0os; kai an einai la0os, giati;;
kai lambanw apanthseis tou typou alla logia na misiomaste.
Einai toso dyskolo dhl. me oses seires egraces twra
na mas peis poia einai h gnwmh tou kyriou J. M. Hall epi
tou 0ematos na ma0w ki egw kati parapanw.
Ypo0etw oti gia na to anafereis kati 0a 3ereis.
Dhl. 0ewreis pio epoikodomhtiko na me steileis se bibliography
kai na kaneis kai asteiakia gia tou koufou thn porta;;
Pare dhl. asxete na diabaseis kai mh me enoxleis me tis
aplo.i.kes sou idees. Malista! Qraia.
Dhl. pisteueis oti ama me peis perilhptika tis dikes sou tis periplokes
de 0a tis katalabw;;
>
>Twra bebaia av o ka9e Bourlamevos :-) s' aytn tn lista avti va ka9etai va
>papagalizei tn Dada (TM Fykos) ka9otav va diabasei estw kai kati ligo re
>gamwto apo ta parapavw (ta opoia parempiptovtws de symfwvouv se ola
>alla sta sigoura dev eivai tou sxolikou epipedou pou mas serbiretai
>stn lista) isws va mn mas zalize tov erwta epi ka9nmerivns basns kai va
>mporouse va exei kai mia pio sobarn stasn sto olo 9ema pera apo ta
>proaiwvia klp. Bebaia mporei ola ta parapavw va eivai aplws kommati
>tns die9vous siwvistikns syvomwsias :-) va pvigei o Ellnvismos stn
>sykofavtia. ;-> Leptomereies sto topiko parartnma tns mystikns rabbivikns
>biblio9nkns tns Zyrixns...
> Ayta apo eva mn eidiko me
> epigvwsn tns agvoias tou
> Abdul
>PS> Twra giati exasa tnv wra mou va ta steilw ayta 9elw va 3erw - stou
>e9elousiws koufou tnv porta oso 9eleis brovta...
>
Egw papagalizw th Dada;; pou, pote, pws;;
Egw eimai o koufos;;
an nomizeis oti ektos apo koutsos, eimai kai koufos
pragmatika de xreiazetai na spatalas ton polytimo xrono sou.
Me ftanei to au0aireto symperasma sou, gia na katalabw.
Telika nomizw oti einai katara twn ellhnwn na katalambanoun
ta akra kai na petane au0aireta tsitata kai eirwnies.
Basilhs
Panagiotis J. Karras
> Rwtnsa pws avtilambavovtav oi arxaioi tnv evvoia tou e9vous kai av me
> basn autn tnv evvoia 9ewrousav eautous omoe9veis. Apavtnses oti oti n
> apavtnsn se ola auta brisketai se eva sugkekrimevo apospasma "pros
> Lakedaimovious".
Oxi apla "pros Lakedaimonioys", alla "pros Ale}andro I ton Makedona,
pros Mardonio, pros Perses, pros Lakedaimonioys, pros apantes Ellhnes kai
apantes anagnwstes".
Exeis arage diabasei pote Hrodoto, 'h mallon }ereis arage poios htan kai
ti egrapse o Hrodotos;
> Sou episnmaivw oti para9esn apospasmatos DEN
> apotelei apavtnsn kai upostnrizeis oti apofeugw va apavtnsw.
La0os. Moy zhthses apospasma, soy edwsa. Moy zhthses na para0esw
sxoliasmo, pare0esa. Den apanthses ston sxoliasmo moy.
8a apanthseis epiteloys 'h na stamathsw na asxoloymai mazi soy;
> >> >Oute apo to "omoglwsso, omotropo, kai omo9rnsko" de suvagetai e9vikn
> > suveidnsn.
> >
> > Symfwnw apolyta kai ayto prospa0oysa na sas e}hghsw gia arketo kairo.
> >
> > Epitelous, paradexthkes oti h legomenh "culture" dhladh ta "h0h / e0h" den
> >einai arketo stoixeio gia thn xalkeysh e0nikhs syneidhshs, opws 0eloyn na mas
> >peisoyn shmera diaforoi Amerikanoi kai alloi...
> >
> > Xairomai poy telika symfwnoyme. Teleia.
> >
> >Xreiazetai loipon kai to omaimon, kai h koinh katagwgh, thn opoia oi Ellhnes
> >exoyme, enw oi Latinoamerikanoi kai oi Slaboi p.x. den exoyn.
>
> Prwtov les blakeies (pali) dioti oi lativoamerikavoi EXOUN to omaimov
> (ispavikn katagwgn)
La0os. Oi latinoamerikanoi den exoyn mono Ispanikh katagwgh. Exoyn afrikanikh,
Tolmekikh, Aztekikh, Inkaikh kai paei legontas. Den exeis pote sth zwh soy
dei panw apo enan Latinoamerikano;
> avatre3oume pali se dnlwseis sou peri ellnvikotntas twv sugxrovwv
> Ellnvwv kai va ri3oume (pali) to gelio tns arkoudas.
Gia poies dhlwseis moy milas;
> Apo kei kai pera de blepw pws
> "paradextnka" oti n ta "n9n/e9n dev eivai arketo stoixeio gia tn
> xalkeusn e9vikns suveidnsns".
Parathrwntas oti den exei dhmioyrgh0ei tetoia sthn Ispanofwnh Amerikh.
> epavalambavomai;) dioti gia tn "xalkeusn" eivai kai paraeivai arketo
> arkei va eivai kaln n propagavda.
P'ws e}hgeis loipon thn apotyxia ths;
> evvoouses oti dev arkouv ta
> politismika stoixeia alla xreiazetai kai gevetikn suvexeia gia tov
> "episnmo" orismo evos e9vous.
Dhmioyrgia.
> dev mporei va isxuei auto pou upostnrizei (n' favnke va upostnrizei) o
> Mpourlas: oti ta koiva politismika stoixeia kai dnlwseis peri autwv
> suvistouv e9vikn tautotnta, poso mallov suveidnsn e9vikns tautotntas.
> Dioti av isxue auto tote 9a eixame eviaia e9vikn tautotnta stnv
> kevtrikn kai lativikn Amerikn, pragma pou profavws dev isxuei.
Symfwnw. Apaiteitai kai koinh katagwgh.
> bebaia paramevei to bnma tns suveidnsns, pou toso eukola ki esu ki o
> Mpourlas parablepete, to opoio DEN suvepagetai oute apo politismikes
> oute apo gevetikes paratnrnseis alla epipleov opoioudnpote
> epixeirnmatos gia "avtikeimevikn" e9vikn tautotnta apo stoixeia gia to
> pws oi av9rwpoi oi idioi avtilambavovtai tnv e9vikn tous 9esn.
Synh0ws h Syneidhsh dhmioyrgeitai otan yparxoyn ola ta alla. Exeis
ypopsh soy kapoia periptwsh poy den dhmioyrgh0hke;
> > Dhladh ka0e an0rwpos prepei na exei didaktoriko sthn koinwnikh an0rwpologia
> >gia na ftiaxtei ena e0nos; Ekei katalhgei h apaithsh soy...
>
> Ka9e av9rwpos prepei va exei suveidnsn tns e9vikotntas tou gia va
> ftiaxtei eva e9vos.
H opoia prokyptei apo ta parapanw.
> Dev aporriptw oute tnv upar3n oute tn suvexeia tou ellnvikou e9vous.
Qraia.
> Aporriptw to dikaiwma sou va exeis apoyn ep'autwv,
To dikaiwma toy Hrodotoy, toy Plh0wna kai toy Makrygiannh to aporripteis
epishs; Apanta se parakalw epiteloys na teleiwnoyme...
> ws Ellnvas me die9vn
> orizovta kai me euais9nsies ws pros tnv e9vikn mas eikova sto
> e3wteriko
"Ellhnas"; "e0nikh"; Se ti akribws anaferesai;
> Apo POY futrwsav kai TI eivai auto pou ta ekave ellnvika evw priv
> dev ntav; H' mnpws o afrikavikos homo erectus ntav prwtoellnviko fulo;
> (suggvwmn tns prwtoMesogeiako n9ela va pw, tns "Mesogeiakns fulns" :-))
Apo poy fytrwsan oi Giapwnezoi kai ti einai ayto poy toys ekane Giapwnezoys
enw prin den htan;
P K
Panagiotis J. Karras
elpizwntas oti 0a anoi}eis ta matia soy na }estrabw0eis.
Pes mas loipon kai sy ti lene ta biblia soy, ayto perimenoyme toso kairo.
P K
> Mpa Feidia mou, otav para9etei o Karras eva swro asxeta tsitata peri
> Ellnvikns glwssas n' peri ellnvikou e9vous eivai emperistatwmeva erwtnmata
> n' apodeikvuouv auto pou upostnrizeis, evw otav para9etei o Xasapns sugxrovn
> epistnmovikn bibliografia eivai axrnstos tnlefwvikos katalogos;
Athanassios Protopapas
Ellnvikns glwssas n' peri ellnvikou e9vous eivai emperistatwmeva erwtnmata
n' apodeikvuouv auto pou upostnrizeis, evw otav para9etei o Xasapns sugxrovn
epistnmovikn bibliografia eivai axrnstos tnlefwvikos katalogos;
Bre gia des pws allazouv ta kritnria a3iolognsns! :-)
Oust apo dw re 3eftilismeve. Pou 9a milnseis esu gia 3ekarfwtous
katalogous.
0avasns
-allou-
Athanassios Protopapas
> Eivai bibliografia (evdexomevws a3iologn, av kai 8a n8ela kai
>Ellnvikn), dev eivai omws apoyeis (me parapompes se bibliografia).
> O ka8evas mporei p.x. va ya3ei se sugkekrimeves topo8esies tou
>Istou kai va steilei olous tous titlous twv bibliwv n' dnmosieusewv
>pou periexouv tnv le3n "nation" kai ta suv8etika tns.
Kai va 3eka9arisw oti sumfwvw (kai to exw grayei se diaforous
Xartzoulakndes kai Faidades---va deis twra pou 9a bgei o prwtos
kai 9a mou leei oti tov brizw pisw ap'tnv platn tou :-)) osov afora
stnv para9esn parapompwv xwris para9esn apoyewv. Elpizw o Xasapns
va exei wra va grayei duo paragrafous sxetika me to 9ema gia va
nsuxasete ki eseis oi aporouvtes (kai va mn mas ta prnzete).
To 9ema eivai oti ESY diamarturn9nkes evw sto parel9ov exeis epikrotnsei
para9esn axrnstwv, asxetwv, kai nli9iwv "katalogwv" diaforwv morfwv
kai ws ek toutou n diarrn3n twv imatiwv sou eivai ligo ...upoptn. Auta.
Episns, n lista do9nke ws apavtnsn se dnlwsn peri suvta3ns me tnv trexousa
epistnmovikn apoyn (kai dioti upnrxav upoyies oti o dnlwsas de gvwrizei
tnv trexousa epistnmovikn apoyn kai malista otav tn gvwrisei evdexomevws
va tnv avtimetwpisei me olov tov epistnmoviko sebasmo pou avtimetwpizei
o Karras tnv trexousa epistnmovikn apoyn gia tnv e3eli3n twv ivdoeurwpaikwv
glwsswv). Kai do9nke plnroforiaka, pros lupn mou, dioti av divotav pio
...maxntika 9a eixe perissotero evdiaferov. Bebaia uparxouv kai xrovika
peri9wria apo tn meria tou Xasapn pou grafei didaktorikn diatribn otav o
Kelsos karadokei avtigrafovtas tous mu9ous tns Atlavtidas kai n dia9esn
emplokns se peripeteies isws eivai periorismevn :-))
0avasns
-allou-
YG. Giati arage 9a n9eles "kai ellnvikn bibliografia"; De sou kavei
n die9vns epistnmovikn apoyn; Eivai pio egkurn autn twv Ellnvwv;
Av upoyiastw oti n epistnmn exei e9vikotnta 9a pe9aaaaaaavw!
Athanassios Protopapas
<snip>
>Den isxyristhka se kammia periptwsh oti
>ta ellhnika fyla eixan diamorfwnenh safws e0nikh syneidhsh
>me thn ennoia pou yparxei twra. 0a me fainotane allwste para3eno
>na exoun kati ta ellhnika fyla pou ligo-poly exei dhmiourgh0ei
>poly argotera. Alla telos pantwn mia kapoia (estw xalarh) syneidhsh
>ths syggeneias tous (pou ekfrazotan px. me thn apostrofh tous stous
>"allous" tous barbarous) *nomizw* eixan.
Xalarn (kai isws kai oxi toso xalarn) suveidnsn tns suggeveias tous
exouv kai oi Aggloi me tous Amerikavous, oi Germavoi me tous Austriakous,
kai oi Bolibiavoi me tous Peroubiavous. Apo pou ki ws pou auto mporei
va ovomastei "e9vikn suveidnsn"; (auto pou upostnrizei o Karras dnladn,
basismevos se paromoia stoixeia)
0avasns
-allou-
YG. Oxi oti 9a me peiraze va steilei o Xasapns mia perilnyn me to zoumi
oswv apo ta biblia tou katalogou exei diabasei.
Phidias Bourlas
>
> Mpa Feidia mou, otav para9etei o Karras eva swro asxeta tsitata peri
> Ellnvikns glwssas n' peri ellnvikou e9vous eivai emperistatwmeva
> erwtnmata
>
>
> n' apodeikvuouv auto pou upostnrizeis, evw otav para9etei o Xasapns
> sugxrovn epistnmovikn bibliografia eivai axrnstos tnlefwvikos
> katalogos;
>
Ellnvikn), dev eivai omws apoyeis (me parapompes se bibliografia).
O ka8evas mporei p.x. va ya3ei se sugkekrimeves topo8esies tou
Istou kai va steilei olous tous titlous twv bibliwv n' dnmosieusewv
pou periexouv tnv le3n "nation" kai ta suv8etika tns.
evdiaferei n gvwmn tou (av mn ti allo perissotero apo o,ti exeis
kataferei va evdiaferei n dikn sou) kai 3erw oti exei diabasei kai
merika pragmata sxetika me to 8ema, tou zntnsa, eav eukairei, va mas
pei o,ti a3io va eipw8ei.
>
> Bre gia des pws allazouv ta kritnria a3iolognsns! :-)
>
A3iolognsn meta3u asxetwv meta3u tous pragmatwv dev eivai duvatn
eu8us e3 arxns.
>
> Oust apo dw re 3eftilismeve. Pou 9a milnseis esu gia 3ekarfwtous
> katalogous.
>
Ta "oust" kai ta kosmntika epi8eta fula3e ta gia to gnpedo.
>
> 0avasns
> -allou-
>
F.M.
Abdullah the Butcher
"O Vassilis Koutsos egraje:"
>
> >> At 01:52 =3DEC=3DEC 22/7/1998 -0700, you wrote:
> >> >Apavtnsn stnv aporia av pisteuw oti ta ellnvika fula dev eixav gevikn
> >> >autogvwsia...klp.: Oxi. Pisteuw oti eixav alla dev eimai eidikos gia
> >> >va 3erw av eixav n' oxi. Opwsdnpote to 9ema eivai periploko dioti
> >> >n evvoia tns e9vikns tautotnas exei e3elix9ei ektote (av upo9esoume
> >> >oti upnrxe tote) kai dustuxws oute ep'autou eimai eidikos. To problnma
> >>
> >> Afou den eisai eidikos kai den exeis kai o idios emperistatwmenh
> >> apoch, epetrece mou na 0ewrw san pi0anoterh thn trexousa episthmonikh
> >> apoch.
Blepovtas to parapavw ype9esa pws to sxolia peri trexousas epistnmovikns
apojns kollousav sto gevikotero 9ema tns e9vikns taytotntas kai to av
yparxei syvexeia aytns apo ta arxaia xrovia ws ta snmera.
[snip]
> Dhl. isxyrhzesai (gia na katalabw) px. oti allo
> "e0nos" Spartiates, allo "e0nos" A0hnaioi;;
Oxi, alla pws *eav* kaveis 9elnsei va milnsei gia ellnviko e9vos tote ayto
prepei va givei me diaforetiko orismo apo tis snmerives evvoies tou
e9vous.
[snip kai alla]
> Einai toso dyskolo dhl. me oses seires egraces twra
> na mas peis poia einai h gnwmh tou kyriou J. M. Hall epi
> tou 0ematos na ma0w ki egw kati parapanw.
Mwre me trwei o kwlos mou va grajw perissotera gia to 9ema edw kai
ebdomades pou 3ekivnse n koubevta alla x9es pleov mporesa va grajw mia
arada. Ki oso gia tn gvwmn tou k. Hall 9a tnv adiknsw av prospa9nsw va tnv
metaferw se 3 arades (ase pou 9a prepei va xasw perissotero xrovo meta va
divw e3ngnseis otav xrovos dev yparxei). 0a ma9eis polla perissotera av
pas se mia biblio9nkn va to daveisteis kai va to diabaseis.
[snip kai alla]
Ki edw eivai pou pare3ngn9nka giati vai mev apavtousa s' eseva alla kyriws
apey9yvomouva stous k.k. Bourla, Karra kai syv aytous :-) pou se avti9esn
me eseva dev rwtouv va ma9ouv (exovtas bebaia kapoies apojeis) alla ta
3erouv apo priv ola... :-)
> >Twra bebaia av o ka9e Bourlamevos :-) s' aytn tn lista avti va ka9etai va
> >papagalizei tn Dada (TM Fykos) ka9otav va diabasei estw kai kati ligo re
> >gamwto apo ta parapavw (ta opoia parempiptovtws de symfwvouv se ola
> >alla sta sigoura dev eivai tou sxolikou epipedou pou mas serbiretai
> >stn lista) isws va mn mas zalize tov erwta epi ka9nmerivns basns kai va
> >mporouse va exei kai mia pio sobarn stasn sto olo 9ema pera apo ta
> >proaiwvia klp. Bebaia mporei ola ta parapavw va eivai aplws kommati
> >tns die9vous siwvistikns syvomwsias :-) va pvigei o Ellnvismos stn
> >sykofavtia. ;-> Leptomereies sto topiko parartnma tns mystikns rabbivikns
> >biblio9nkns tns Zyrixns...
> > Ayta apo eva mn eidiko me
> > epigvwsn tns agvoias tou
> > Abdul
> >PS> Twra giati exasa tnv wra mou va ta steilw ayta 9elw va 3erw - stou
> >e9elousiws koufou tnv porta oso 9eleis brovta...
> >
>
> Egw papagalizw th Dada;; pou, pote, pws;;
> Egw eimai o koufos;;
> an nomizeis oti ektos apo koutsos, eimai kai koufos
> pragmatika de xreiazetai na spatalas ton polytimo xrono sou.
> Me ftanei to au0aireto symperasma sou, gia na katalabw.
>
> Telika nomizw oti einai katara twn ellhnwn na katalambanoun
> ta akra kai na petane au0aireta tsitata kai eirwnies.
> Basilhs
Opote adikws bgaiveis apo ta rouxa sou.
Bourla tekvov mou, tnv eidikotnta stnv pare9esn apojewv me parapompes (pou
apodeikvyovtai parapompes parapompwv Dadas/Berlitz :-) tnv exeis esy. :-)
Av avti va prospa9w va teleiwsw tn diaolemevn tn diatribn mou ka9omouv va
grafw paper sta 9emata e9vikotntas/e9votntas/e9vikismou klp. esy 9a mou
edives to ptyxio twv ma9nmatikwv; Tov "tnlefwviko katalogo" (poly m' arese
ayto) tov esteila gia va exeis kai mia epilogn bibliwv va diabaseis (mpas
kai de briskeis merika). Oi listobioi tou xwrou (yparxouv alla profavws
exouv sobaroteres douleies va kavouv apo to va sou apavtave stn lista) sta
sigoura mporouv va sou kavouv kai sxoliasmo stn bibliografia aytn kai va
tnv emploutisouv. Esy dia9esn va diabaseis (me avoixto myalo) avti va
aforizeis (veomar3istes syvomwtes klp. - 3ereis ti leve kala kala;) exeis;
Abdul
PS> O kakokoiros o Bakalopoulos pou milaei gia *prwto-e9vos* se sxesn me
tous Ellnves sta ystera Byzavtiva xrovia eivai ki aytos veomar3istns
epeidn de libavizei ta proaiwvia apo tov kairo tou Deykaliwva; :-)
Eleos...
PSS> Karra, ase ta syvora stn 9esn tous. :-) Sav poly megaln idea dev
exeis gia tov eayto sou pou 9ewreis tnv amfisbntnsn twv 9esewv sou
va syvepagetai amfisbntnsn twv syvorwv;
PSSS> Over kai out gia tis epomeves meres, kai polla egraja, etsi de
teleiwvw me tipota.
Athanassios Protopapas
>
> Exeis arage diabasei pote Hrodoto, 'h mallon }ereis arage poios htan kai
>ti egrapse o Hrodotos;
Ap'o,ti 9umamai Hrodoto kavame sto Gumvasio. Esu se poia xwra pnges sxoleio;
Kai apo pote o Hrodotos egive eidnmwv sta koivwvika, istorika, kai av9rwpolo-
gika 9emata; Nomizw prepei va katalabeis oti (1) allo oi pnges ki allo n
ermnveia tous, kai (2) n meletn kai katavonsn twv av9rwpistikwv kai koivwvikwv
epistnmwv exei proxwrnsei kamposo ap'tnv epoxn tou Hrodotou.
>> Sou episnmaivw oti para9esn apospasmatos DEN
>> apotelei apavtnsn kai upostnrizeis oti apofeugw va apavtnsw.
>
> La0os. Moy zhthses apospasma, soy edwsa. Moy zhthses na para0esw
>sxoliasmo, pare0esa. Den apanthses ston sxoliasmo moy.
Dev uparxei la9os. Pragmati sou episnmava to parapavw kai pragmati upostn-
rizeis oti apofeugw va apavtnsw:
> 8a apanthseis epiteloys 'h na stamathsw na asxoloymai mazi soy;
Kaveva "la9os" para movo tns upar3ns sou. Kai twra sto "sxoliasmo" sou.
Zntnsa va deix9ei oti << oi arxaioi Ellnves 9ewrousav eautous OMOE0NEIS
(oxi aplws "Ellnves" alla sugkekrimeva avnkovtes sto idio E0NOS---kai me
stoixeia gia to pws akribws evvoeito o oros "e9vos" tote) >>
kai apavtnses oti << Ola osa zhtas periexontai sto 1o apospasma.
Den katalabainw ti moy zhtas na pros0esw. >>, opou 1o apospasma eivai to
<< Aytis de to Ellhnikon eon omaimon te kai omoglwsson kai 0ewn idrymata
te koina kai 0ysiai h0ea te omotropa, twn prodotas genes0ai A0hnaioys
oyk an ey exoi. (A0hnaioi pros Lakedaimonioys, 5os aiwnas pX) >>
to opoio apari9mei ta koiva xaraktnristika twv Ellnvwv, de leei pou9eva
tipota gia "e9vos" (dev upnrxe allwste n evvoia tote) kai fusika de leei
tipota gia to av oi Ellnves ntav omoe9veis. Ti allo mporw va pw ektos oti
les blakeies; Na kai o sxoliasmos: << To 1o apospasma
eipw0hke ligo prin th maxh stis Plataies, otan oi synaspismenoi Ellhnes
etoimazotan na antimetwpisoyn toys Perses. Einai meros toy logoy twn
A0hnaiwn poy dikaiologei thn arnhsh toys na symmaxhsoyn me to Mardonio.
To 0ewreis ayto to plaisio asxeto me th syzhthsh mas; Xwris thn ennoia toy
e0noys poios einai kat' ese o logos gia ton opoio oi A0hnaioi den symmaxhsan
me ton Mardonio tote; >>
Kata kapoiov tropo esu 9ewreis oti epeidn oi A9nvaioi ebriskav oti exouv
perissotera koiva me tous Lakedaimovious para me to Mardovio kai tous Perses
automatws suvagetai to sumperasma oti 9ewrousav eautous omoe9veis me tous
Lakedaimovious kai epipleov xwris alln e3ngnsn to parapavw apavta kai sto
pws 9ewrouv tnv evvoia tou e9vous. Epeidn dev eivai "asxeto me tn suzntnsn
mas" (to dexomai oti dev eivai) de snmaivei oti ti9etai kai zntnma "e9vous".
Lupamai pou exeis tetoio tromero problnma me tn logikn suvoxn kai kalutera
va payeis va asxoleisai mazi mou.
>> Prwtov les blakeies (pali) dioti oi lativoamerikavoi EXOUN to omaimov
>> (ispavikn katagwgn)
>
> La0os. Oi latinoamerikanoi den exoyn mono Ispanikh katagwgh. Exoyn
afrikanikh,
>Tolmekikh, Aztekikh, Inkaikh kai paei legontas. Den exeis pote sth zwh soy
>dei panw apo enan Latinoamerikano;
Koita3e tov kai malista meta apo proeidopoinsn va mn xrnsimopoinsei auto
to epixeirnma dioti dev tov sumferei (ma eisai teleiws mpoumpouvas telika).
Loipov oi snmerives lativoamerikavikes koivwvies exouv safws ta omotropo
omoglwsso omo9rnsko kai omaimo, toulaxistov sto ba9mo pou ta eixav oi diaforoi
arxaioi Ellnves kai pi9avws perissotero ap'oso ta exouv oi Neoellnves, pou
exouv upostei diafores prosmi3eis (megales n' mikres, dev exei megaln snmasia
gia to sugkekrimevo zntnma) me kata kairous kataktntes kai kataktnmevous.
To posous Lativoamerikavous exw dei de se pairvei va to rwtas (ma olo gkafes
9a kaveis;) kai 9a sou kavw tn xarn va mn sto e3ngnsw. Loipov, me duo logia:
Av oi Lativoamerikavoi dev exouv to omaimo para tnv kata kurio logo ispavikn
katagwgn tous (estw kai movo sta astika kevtra av 9es) tote dev tnv exouv
oute oi Neoellnves (movo tous Arbavites kai tous Blaxous va baleis xa9nkes)
opote paei peripato n e9vikotnta sou. Av pali oi Lativoamerikavoi exouv to
omaimo (evw profavws dev eivai omoe9veis) tote o katalagos xaraktnristikwv
pou apari9mnses ws apodeiktika tou arxaiou ellnvikou e9vous de mporei va
9ewrn9ei oti suvepagetai e9vikn tautotnta opote paei peripato n e9vikotnta
twv arxaiwv nmwv progovwv.
Diale3e kai pare.
>> Apo kei kai pera de blepw pws
>> "paradextnka" oti n ta "n9n/e9n dev eivai arketo stoixeio gia tn
>> xalkeusn e9vikns suveidnsns".
>
> Parathrwntas oti den exei dhmioyrgh0ei tetoia sthn Ispanofwnh Amerikh.
Am sto lew egw oti exeis logika problnmata. Paratnrwvtas oti dev exei
dnmiourgn9ei koivn e9vikn suveidnsn stnv Ispavofwvn Amerikn sumperaivoume oti
ta politismika stoixeia dev eivai arketa gia tnv automatn dnmiourgia koivns
e9vikns suveidnsns (kai malista evavtia se diaspastika politika sumferovta).
To av mporei me basn movo tetoia politismika stoixeia (kai isws oute kav auta)
va xalkeu9ei e9vikn suveidnsn mesw kratikns propagavdas DEN mporei va suvax9ei
apo tnv parapavw paratnrnsn (des sto le3iko ti snmaivei "xalkeuw", mporei
ekei va eivai to problnma sou).
>> epavalambavomai;) dioti gia tn "xalkeusn" eivai kai paraeivai arketo
>> arkei va eivai kaln n propagavda.
>
> P'ws e}hgeis loipon thn apotyxia ths;
Giati, egive propagavda dnmiourgias lativoamerikavikns e9vikns suveidnsns
kai dev to avtilnf9nka;
>> Mpourlas: oti ta koiva politismika stoixeia kai dnlwseis peri autwv
>> suvistouv e9vikn tautotnta, poso mallov suveidnsn e9vikns tautotntas.
>> Dioti av isxue auto tote 9a eixame eviaia e9vikn tautotnta stnv
>> kevtrikn kai lativikn Amerikn, pragma pou profavws dev isxuei.
>
> Symfwnw. Apaiteitai kai koinh katagwgh.
Dev eivai oute avagkaia (Isranl, Ellada) oute ikavn (Xiln-Argevtivn) suv9nkn.
Oso kai va to epavalambaveis dev prokeitai va givei pio aln9ivo. H e9vikn
suveidnsn eivai *upokeimeviko* xaraktnristiko evw oi diafores politismikes
kai biologikes paratnrnseis avaferovtai se *avtikeimevika* xaraktnristika.
H suvdesn meta3u tous dev eivai automatn oute logikn alla isws va eivai
eukolotero va plastei suveidnsn otav uparxouv arketa koiva stoixeia para
otav uparxouv ligotera (alla pote mnv upotimas mia kaln propagavda).
>> Aporriptw to dikaiwma sou va exeis apoyn ep'autwv,
>
> To dikaiwma toy Hrodotoy, toy Plh0wna kai toy Makrygiannh to aporripteis
>epishs; Apanta se parakalw epiteloys na teleiwnoyme...
Oloi autoi eixav dikaiwma va dnlwvouv tnv proswpikn tous tautotnta
kai pws tnv katalabaivav (pou to ekavav), opws to idio dikaiwma exoume esu
ki egw. Dev tous 9ewrw basimes pnges gia tnv evvoia tou e9vous bebaia, dioti
dev meletnsav auto to pragma oi av9rwpoi, opws dev to meletnsame oute ki egw
n' esu. Tn diafora mporeis va tnv katalabeis n' oxi;
0avasns
-allou-
Phidias Bourlas
>
> >> Yg. Mpourla m egrapses! To kolpo me ton prokataklusmiaio politismo tou Dia
> >> einai kalutero ki apo thn mpougatsa me gomwsh.
> >>
> > Xairomai pou ta brnkate evdiaferovta. 8a steilw ki alla.
>
> sto EMP me 0ema ta eurnmata pou efere o Matiebits priv merika xrovia
> (ekeiva pou apodeikvyouv oti oi Ellnves eixav ftasei stn Notio Amerikn).
>
tou bibliou tou sta Ellnvika ("Hellenicum Pacificum"), sugkevtrwse leei
malista ki alla stoixeia, kai glwssika alla kai mousikologika, ema8es;
Gia tov Mattievich to teleutaio pou diabasa ntav auto pou
episuvaptw. Blepeis, akoma kai 3evoi ereuvntes mox8ouv gia tnv
apokaluyn tns a-ln8eias tns Ellnvikns (pro)istorias. Para tis ateleies
twv diaforwv epimerous prospa8eiwv, opws twv avafer8eiswv sto parov, n
sugkomidn twv plousiwv karpwv ndn exei arxisei.
>
> Petros
>
F.M.
---
http://www.ancientgr.com/Unknown_Hellenic_History/PERIODIKOS_TYPOS.html
H ELLHNIKH APOSTOLH STO PEROU
Stis 8 Iouliou 1997 avaxwrnse omada epistnmovwv tou E.M. Polutexveiou
apoteloumevn apo duo Xnmikous Mnxavikous kai evav Arxaiologo
gia va suvavtnsouv stnv Lima tou Perou tov ka8ngntn Evriko Mattiebits,
me skopo tnv meletn twv stoixeiwv pou exei sulle3ei o ev logw ka8ngntns
kai tnv epitopou meletn twv arxaiologikwv eurnmatwv pou deixvouv
tnv parousia twv arxaiwv Ellnvwv stnv perioxn. O Italikns katagwgns
ka8ngntns Evriko Mattiebits pou didaskei sto pavepistnmio tns Lima,
yaxvovtas, sugkevtrwvovtas kai meletwvtas arxaiologiko uliko apo ta
dutika tmnmata tou Perou kai kuriws sto Kousko kai sto Tsabiv vte
Xouavtar, diatupwse meta3u allwv sto biblio tou me titlo "Ta3idi stnv
Mu8ologikn Kolasn - n avakaluyn tns Amerikns apo tous Ellnves"
(ekdoseis EKATH) tnv apoyn oti ta Tartara - n puln tou Adn - twv
arxaiwv Ellnvwv ntav sto Tsabiv vte Xouavtar, opou oi arxaioi mas
progovoi ntav episkeptes!
Merikes apo tis evdei3eis eivai :
a) Aveuresn se diafora mern tou Perou tns kefalns tns Medousas,
tou perifnmou Gorgwviou.
b) Upar3n apo to 1867 (!) seiras ar8rwv se periodiko tns Argevtivns,
oti n glwssa Ketsoua twv Peroubiavwv twv Avdewv exei basn ta arxaia
Ellnvika!
g) Avakaluyeis amforewv Ellnvikns texvns.
d) Telos, upar3n bibliou gia tov "Leuko 8eo" twv arxaiwv Peroubiavwv,
pou tautizetai (apo tnv Peroubiavn ereuvntria pou meletnse tis sxetikes
paradoseis) me tov Apollwvio Tuavea! [s.s. Ep' autou exw evstaseis.]
(Pngn: Periodiko "Trito Mati", t. 63, Ioul.-Aug. 1997.)
Phidias Bourlas
>
> Liga-liga giati pare3ngnsa kai pare3ngn9nka:
>
stoxo twv skwptikwv sxoliwv sou, to exw kerdisei egw me mox8o polu,
opote as mnv pare3ngouvtai alloi. :-)
> [...]
> *eav* kaveis 9elnsei va milnsei gia ellnviko e9vos tote ayto
> prepei va givei me diaforetiko orismo apo tis snmerives evvoies tou
> e9vous.
> [...]
> Bourla tekvov mou, tnv eidikotnta stnv pare9esn apojewv me parapompes
> (pou apodeikvyovtai parapompes parapompwv Dadas/Berlitz :-) tnv exeis
> esy. :-)
>
O Daulos bebaia, tov opoio aveferes, polla, alla kala alla kaka,
mporei va eivai, e8vikistikos omws oxi. Peri e8vous kai e8vikotntos
twra, 8a steilw merika apospasmata apo alles pnges (oxi kat' avagknv
e8vikistikes, alla akoma kai aristeres).
> Abdul
> PS> O kakokoiros o Bakalopoulos pou milaei gia *prwto-e9vos* se sxesn me
> tous Ellnves sta ystera Byzavtiva xrovia eivai ki aytos veomar3istns
> epeidn de libavizei ta proaiwvia apo tov kairo tou Deykaliwva; :-)
>
To Ellnviko E8vos epomevws ufistatai (kai kata Bakalopoulou) kai pro
tns biomnxavikns epavastasns. Euxaristw gia tnv plnroforia.
Osov afora sta Buzavtiva xrovia kai oxi movo, 8a epavel8w se
epomeva mnvumata.
Prepei va snmeiwsw pavtws oti oudepote isxuristnka oti to Ellnviko
E8vos eivai idio kai aparallaxto apo katabolns kosmou, opws kakws
isxurizeste oti isxurizomai. Fusika oxi, afou n pagkosmia koivwvia kai
o politismos eivai diaforetika se ka8e epoxn, kai n e8vikn suveidnsn
ekfrazetai kai eklambavetai diaforetika. (Allo to oti to E8vos koubala
oloklnrn tnv klnrovomia tns poluaiwvns istorias tou kai ekfrazei
pavtote, me tov eva n' tov allov tropo, tis diaxrovikes, 8emeliwdeis
a3ies tns Ellnvikotntos, tns Aiwviou Ellados.)
>
> PSS> Karra, ase ta syvora stn 9esn tous. :-) Sav poly megaln idea dev
> exeis gia tov eayto sou pou 9ewreis tnv amfisbntnsn twv 9esewv sou
> va syvepagetai amfisbntnsn twv syvorwv;
>
Ma av dev uparxouv e8vn, ti ta 8eloume ta suvora;
>
> PSSS> Over kai out gia tis epomeves meres, kai polla egraja, etsi de
> teleiwvw me tipota.
>
Katse, perimeve, pou' mas afnveis movous;
F.M.
Phidias Bourlas
>
> >>YG. Apo ta parakatw to (c) exei polu ywmi alla to "propagavdas" parapempei
> >> se mnxavismous kratikns katastolns evw stnv periptwsn mas prokeitai peri
> >> filellnvikou (ki ellnvikou) daktulou ek dusmwv :-)
> >
> >Dhl. ti;; gia e3hghse to auto, den to 'piasa.
>
> De 9a ovomaza propagavda to va grafei kapoios romavtikos sto lovdreziko
> salovi tou gia tous apogovous tou Swkratn pou upoferouv tis barbarotntes
> twv o9wmavwv. Mallov afeleia 9a to ovomaza. Bebaia meta epiase stnv
> Eurwpn (kai telika mas 3elaspwsav giati movoi mas 9a eixame fagw9ei kai
> 9a eixame parei tov poulo tou Impranm) kai xrnsimopoin9nke eurews argotera
> kai apo tov (ellnviko) kratiko mnxavismo. Alla tote alles katastaseis,
> tromern avomoiogeveia pln9usmwv, paizovtav ektaseis kai kampoi kai limavia
> kai potamia, alliws ta pragmata, eipame. Kati eprepe va parasxe9ei gia va
> givei n e9vikn sugkollnsn.
>
Poia E8vikn Paideia; Dev vomizw va upnr3e pote gvnsia Ellnvikn E8vikn
Paideia sto elladiko kratidio.
Telos pavtwv. Gia tnv paideia exei eva evdiaferov keimevo o
Xristodoulos sto
http://www.i-m-dimitriados.gr/html/gr/section02/education/speeches/01/01.htm
Episuvaptw, xwris sxolia, eva apospasma (ta sxetika me tov e8viko
prosavatolismo tns paideias).
F.M.
---
PAIDEIA
Oi deka Farawvikes plnges tns Ellnvikns Paideias
[...]
1. 8a ovomatiza ws prwtn plngn tnv elleiyn e8vikns
ekpaideutikns stratngikns. H elleiyn autn suvodeuetai kai apo tnv
apousia safous skopo8esias stnv Paideia mas, ev oyei malista tou
21ou aiwvos. Me alla logia n Politeia mas dev exei katastala3ei
poiov tupo av8rwpou zntei va diamorfwsei n Paideia mas, kai gi' auto
dev exei kator8wsei va dwsei eva swsto prosavatolismo stnv oln
domn tns ekpaideusns. Kai vai mev legetai apo ka8e kateu8uvsn oti
apo tnv ekpaideusn pou 8a epile3oume 8a e3artn8ei n ellnvikn
pveumatikn ovtotnta, alla me to diko mas proswpo, tis idiaiterotntes
mas kai tnv ousia tns atomikns kai sullogikns mas upar3ns.
Snmera se oles tis xwres tns Eurwpns paratnreitai mia evtovn
kivntikotnta kai problnmatikn gurw apo ta 8emata tns agwgns twv
vewv, wste n morfn tns Paideias se ka8e xwra va suvtelei af' evos mev
stn suvadelfwsn olwv twv lawv, af' eterou de stnv evduvamwsn twv
e8vikwv xaraktnristikwv tns ka8e politistikns koivotntos gia va mnv
e3aleif8ouv oi ideologikes, pveumatikes kai politistikes idiaiterotntes
tou ka8e laou. Stnv patrida mas exoume kavei la8os epiloges sta
snmeia auta. 8usiazoume proxeira kai abasavista sto bwmo tou
e3eurwpaismou mas tn dikn mas paradosn, ta stoixeia tns opoias
xleuazoume av dev ta agvooume, me suvepeia va priovizoume ousiastika
to kladi pavw sto opoio ka8omaste. 3ekivnsame kapote va
diamorfwsoume tov av8rwpo tns logokratoumevns epistnmns gia va
perasoume stov av8rwpo tov ellnvoxristiavikwv idavikwv, gia va pame
argotera stov av8rwpo tns dnmokratias kai twra stov eurwpaio
av8rwpo, me tnv evvoia tou "kosmopolitn". Dierwtwmai pote 8a
apofasisoume oti n Paideia mas prepei va proetoimazei tov av8rwpo
Ellnva, pou 8a agapa tnv patrida tou, 8a sebetai tov 8eo twv
paterwv tou kai 8a tima tis pveumatikes kai politistikes a3ies tou
topou. Auto mou 8umizei tn gvwstn rnsn tou Makrugiavvn, pou
epekrive tous sugxrovous tou pou ntav alloi rwsofiloi, alloi
gallofiloi kai alloi agglofiloi, gia va diatupwsei to erwtnma:
"Telika poioi emeivav gia va eivai ellnvofiloi;". Alla snmera n Paideia
mas metabln8nke se mnxavikn diadikasia. Etsi kataskeuazei
"av8rwparia", dev dnmiourgei av8rwpous. Asxoleitai me tn mnxavikn
mimnsn kai apomvnmoveusn kai agvoei tn dnmiourgikotnta (Bl. G.
Mpozwvn: Prolegomeva sto vonma tns Paideias, sto periodiko
"Koivwvikes Tomes" Iav. 1991). O agios patro-Kosmas eblepe tnv
Paideia "prosferousav n8os kai gvwsn. "Diati -elege- agioi iereis kai
timioi proestwtes de ermnveuete ta eulognmeva mas adelfia va
sterewvwsi kai va bavwsi eis ka8e xwriov sxoleiov, va mav8avouv ta
paidia grammata, va gvwrizouv to kalov kai to kakov;". Dnladn n8ele
tnv Paideia diaplastikn tou n8ous kai tou pveumatos. Kai ta duo mazi
suv8etouv tnv aln8ivn skopo8esia tns ellnvikns mas Paideias.
[...]
6. H aduvamia n n adiaforia suvdesns twv ma8ntwv me ta
stoixeia tns e8vikns, 8rnskeutikns kai politismikns mas
paradosns suvista miav alln plngn tou sustnmatos. Apo tns
epoxns tou Platwvos n Paideia ekaleito va diaplasei xaraktnres kai
va mnv perioris8ei aplws stn metadosn 3nrwv gvwsewv. Wstoso
snmera oi 3nres autes gvwseis, me mia avtipaidagwgikn malista
me8odo, tnv tns apostn8isns, (pou tnv epibebaiwvei n av8nsn tns
"parapaideias") suvistouv tn movadikn, ws faivetai, apostoln tns
Paideias mas. Gi' auto kai ta ka8arws av8rwpoplastika stoixeia tns
exouv parameris8ei. Eprepe va avafavei to Makedoviko gia va arxisei
va givetai logos sta sxoleia gia tnv evvoia tns Patridos. Kai eprepe
va sumbouv ta egklnmata twv satavistwv gia va kivn8ouv ta gravazia
tns duskivntns ekpaideutikns ierarxias pros tovismo twv 8rnskeutikwv
a3iwv tns Or8odo3ias. Giati poies e8vikes kai 8rnskeutikes a3ies
tovizovtai sto sxoleio; Avti8etws "xeria ellnvika, oplismeva me opla
3eva, barbara kai ex8rika, plngwsav 8avasima tis asteireutes pnges
tns Ellnvikotntas mas. Polemnsav kai polemouv, mesa apo ta kavalia
tns orgavwmevns Ellnvikns Ekpaideusews, tnv klassikn mas
paradosn kai to or8odo3o xristiaviko pveuma tou topou mas" (G.
Krassavakn: H snmerivn katastasn tns Ellnvikns Paideias, Sto
periodiko "Ellnvikos Astnr" Noem. - Dek. 1991 s.283).
Kai ola auta sumbaivouv snmera idiws, pou vees pragmatikotntes
exouv emfavis8ei stov orizovta me tnv Eurwpaikn Evwsn kai me tnv
avagkn va diafula3oume ws e8vos ta idiaitera xaraktnristika mas,
pou 8a apotreyouv tnv katalusn kai tnv afomoiwsn mas. Snmera n
Eurwpn upagoreuei stis xwres - meln tns tous stoxous tns
ekpaideusns. Kai kurios kai basikos stoxos eivai n dnmiourgia, dia tns
parexomevns ekpaideusns, tou veou eurwpaiou av8rwpou, pou exei tn
suveidnsn oti avnkei stn megaln oikogeveia tns gnraias mas npeirou.
Deutern 8esn didetai stn texvologia kai tnv epistnmn kai tritn kai
teleutaia stis e8vikes, paradosiakes idiaiterotntes ka8e laou. O
ka8ngntns G. Mpampaviwtns paratnrei sxetika: "Me liga logia n
Paideia mas ka8ws kai n Paideia twv allwv eurwpaikwv xwrwv prepei
va diaxusei se ola ta gvwstika avtikeimeva kai sto pedio tns agwgns
twv auriavwv Eurwpaiwv politwv tn legomevn "eurwpaikn diastasn".
Prepei episns va dieukoluvei kai va a3iopoinsei meta3u twv lawv tns
Eurwpns tn diakivnsn twv idewv, twv problnmatismwv kai twv
empeiriwv ka8e xwras stnv paideia kai tov politismo, wste o,ti
ovomazetai Evwmevn Eurwpn va pragmatw8ei ba8mndov sto pio
apaitntiko kai ousiastiko epipedo, to epipedo tns Paideias kai to
suveidnsiako epipedo. Kai ola auta -suvexizei o ka8ngntns- xwris n
Paideia va apobei eis baros tns prosdioristikns gia ka8e xwra
diastasns: tns e8vikns Paideias kai tns kalliergeias e8vikns
suveidnsns... H kalliergeia tns glwssas, tns paradosns, tns
8rnskeias, twv desmwv pou suvexouv sugxrovika kai diaxrovika eva
e8vos, o ugins e8vismos, me mia le3n, oxi movo dev suvista avtirrnsn
sto 8esmo tns Evwmevns Eurwpns, alla apotelei proupo8esn
upar3ews tou. H uperbasn tou e8vismou ka8e xwras - melous xariv
mias Evwmevns Eurwpns dev snmaivei kai katalusn tou e8vismou, ws
xwristns kai au8uparktns istorikns suveidnsns ka8e laou" (G.
Mpampiviwtns: H paideia mas kai oi vees pragmatikotntes. Sto "Bnma"
10.1.93).
Oi barusnmavtes autes episnmavseis omws tou Ka8ngntou
Mpampiviwtn erxovtai se avti8esn me o,ti znsame kai evdexomevws
zoume kai snmera se orismeves periptwseis mesa sta sxoleia, opou
merikoi ekpaideutikoi, 8ewrwvtas profavws to sxoleio timario twv kai
ta paidia omnrous twv, e3akolou8ouv va upovomeuouv ta pveumatika
mas ereismata me e3orgistiko tropo. 8a avaferw merika
paradeigmata diabrwtikns suveidnsns merikwv ka8ngntwv pou
sugklovizouv. Ka8ngntes tou Eviaiou Polukladikou Lukeiou A8nvwv,
sumfwva me episnmn kataggelia, diaknru3av stnv diarkeia
suvedriasns tou Sullogou twv Ka8ngntwv oti n ellnvikn Snmaia eivai
"sumbolo misous, polemou kai favatismou" kai oti n "avartnsn tns" sto
kovto tou sxoleiou epi ka8nmerivns basews "8umizei alles epoxes"
(upovowvtas profavws tn diktatoria)". Kai autous tous
arvnsipatrides ekpaideutikous, osodnpote mikrn meioynfia kai av
eivai, o Sullogos twv allwv ka8ngntwv, ormwmevos apo mia
suvtexviakn allnleggun, epexeirnse va to kaluyei, opws auto exei
sumbei kai para polles alles fores kata tnv avtimetwpisn
paremferwv avtilnyewv opws eivai p.x. n paraxara3n tns istorias
mas n o katabibasmos apo tov toixo tns ta3ews tns eikovas tou Kuriou.
Allo paradeigma: Daskalos se sxoleio tns Boreiou Ellados se
omilia tou, propagavdize uper tns "apeleu8erwsns tns Makedovias
apo tnv ellnvikn katoxn" (Bl. "Oikovomiko Taxudromo" 4.6.92). Kai
bebaia kaveis dev evdiafer8nke va suvetisei n va diafwtisei to
daskalo auto. H telos va tou pei oti dev mporei va eivai daskalos av
exei tetoies idees. Prepei va alla3ei amesws epaggelma kai va afnsei
ta paidia mas se xeria ka8ara kai muala ellnvika...
Ola auta epibebaiwvouv mia travn aln8eia, oti oi legomevoi
"proodeutikoi" mesa sto xwro tns ekpaideusns diakatexovtai apo eva
eidos mavixaismou kai gi' auto polemouv tnv paradosn, polemwvtas tov
eauto tous, kai tnv afnvouv va tnv kapnleuovtai oi dn8ev
"suvtnrntikoi", pou kai autoi mporei va mn pisteuouv se tipote, alla
auto sto opoio dev pisteuouv to ekavav snmaia kai labaro tous e3
avtidrasews kai movo. Moiazei olo auto to sknviko me to 8avasimo
la8os twv xwrwv tou allote uparktou sosialismou kai twv
kommouvistwv, pou tn 8rnskeia, eva kat' e3oxnv laiko biwma, tnv
prosferav sto piato stous kapitalistes, gia va emfavizovtai ws
prostates tns kai uperaspistes tns. Oi idioi "proodeutikoi"
avakaluyav pws o M. Ale3avdros ntav kataktntns kai diarrngvuouv
ta imatia twv evavtiov ka8e dutikns politikns e3artnsns, evw oi idioi
eivai boutngmevoi sto kakektupo dutiko pveuma. (Bl. N. Matsouka:
Paideias paraleipomeva. Sto periodiko "E3odos, F8ivopwro 1991).
Xaraktnristikes sto snmeio auto eivai oi diapistwseis twv Agioreitwv
Paterwv sto Mnvuma twv gia ta problnmata tns Paideias tou etous
1984: " Apo polla twra xrovia givetai sustnmatikn prospa8eia,
diarkws au3avomevn, va polemn8ei n pistis. Na bgei apo ta ellnvika
sxoleia o Xristos. Na diastreblw8ei n istoria mas. Na eutelis8ei n
snmasia twv megalwv eortwv twv Xristougevvwv kai tou Pasxa, pou
toso zei o laos mas. Na pausn n Or8odo3os Ekklnsia va epnreazei tn
zwn tou gevous mas, dnladn va pausn n yuxn tou gevous mas va
zwogovei to eivai mas. Na meivei o laos aprostateutos, ek8etos,
avaimikos, etoimn leia kai trofn opoioudnpote ais8ntou n vontou
8nriou" (Bl. to keimevo sto periodiko "Suva3n", 10/1984). Kai o
Korans paretnrn: "H aretn eivai pragma e8istov kai apoktatai ws ola
ta apoktwmeva apo makrav suvn8eiav... Movov n paideia,
eleu8erwvousa tov vouv apo tnv agvoiav, didaskei tov av8rwpo ta
pros tov 8eov kai tov plnsiov ka8nkovta".
7. Plngn tns Paideias mas suvista kai to perifnmo glwssiko
zntnma, pou talavizei epi dekaeties tnv ekpaideusn mas. Ta
paidia pelagodromouv apo to eva sto allo glwssiko sustnma, xwris
kaveis va gvwrizei ti telika isxuei kai pou badizei n ekpaideusn. H dia
vomou katargnsn tns ka8areuousas kai n epiboln tns dnmotikns,
ka8ws kai n dia tns idias odou epiboln tou movotovikou eixav ws
apotelesma tnv le3ipevia twv ma8ntwv kai tnv aduvamia tous va
ekfras8ouv. Kai omws! 8a eprepe oi veoi va ma8aivouv tn megaln kai
plousia istorikn mas glwssa se oln tn diaxrovikn e3eli3n tns, wste
va eivai katoxoi oxi movo tou glwssikou ekfrastikou mas orgavou,
3epervwvtas to snmerivo faivomevo tns "ale3ias", alla kai tou
politismikou mas ploutou, mia kai n glwssa eivai foreas twv
politismikwv aga8wv tou laou mas kai krnpida tns upostasews tou.
O Korans paratnrouse: "Pote e8vos dev diastrefei tn glwssav tou
xwris va diastrefn ev tautw kai tnv paideiav tou. H asuvta3ia tns
glwssns suvodeuei pavtote kai tnv asuvta3iav twv idewv, dioti ostis
katafrovn tous kavovas tns Grammatikns grngora 8elei katafrovnseiv
kai tous kavovas tns Logikns" (Autosxedioi stoxasmoi).
Me tnv kuriarxia tou pavw stn glwssa o ellnvas veos 8a eivai se
8esn va skef8ei avetotera kai wrimotera, va ekfrasei evargestera ta
diavonmata tou kai va dei tis 3eves glwsses ws paraplnrwmata pou
erxovtai va bon8nsouv tn suvevvonsn tou kai oxi ws upokatastata tns
dikns tou glwssas, opws dustuxws sumbaivei snmera me tn gevikn
e3aplwsn kai ka8ierwsn 3evikwv ekfrasewv stnv ka8nmerivn omilia
kai e3ellnvismevwv le3ewv kai frasewv, pou kataduvasteuouv tn
glwssikn mas eparkeia. Kai bebaia eivai euxaristo pws arxise ndn va
givetai suveidnsn kai apo autous akomn tous lumewves tou glwssikou
mas ploutou, oti xwris beltiwsn tns glwssikns didaskalias sta
sxoleia, kivduveuoume va afavis8oume ws e8vos twra pou eimaste
mesa stnv Eurwpn. Omws movov autn n diapistwsn, par' oln tn
barutnta pou exei, dev arkei av dev suvodeutei apo amesn dior8wsn
twv kakwv xeirismwv pou egivav kai av dev te8ei amesws kai xwris
ka8usternseis se evergeia eva veo evtatiko programma ekma8nsns kai
didaskalias tou or8ou glwssikou mas ploutou. Dioti dev eivai movo
pou katargnsame tnv arxaia kai tn logia glwssa, kataduvasteusame
kai tn vea pou didasketai avor8odo3a xwris sebasmo tou Suvtaktikou
kai tns Grammatikns pou tn suvodeuouv. To devdro tns glwssns mas,
pou exei karpofora zwn 3.000 peripou etwv, kladeutnke apeilntika
kai epikivduva to 1976 me tn dia vomou ka8ierwsn tns dnmotikns ws
episnmou glwssns tns ekpaideusns mas, kai epause va potizetai to
1981 me tnv ka8ierwsn tou movotovikou, evw akouetai kai grafetai pws
dev argei kai n avtikatastasn tou alfabntou mas me lativiko, ek
logwv sumporeusns me tnv Eurwpn.
[...]
(Omilia tou Seb. Mntropolitou Dnmntriados k. Xristodoulou.)
http://www.i-m-dimitriados.gr/html/gr/section02/education/speeches/01/01.htm
Panagiotis J. Karras
> Kai apo pote o Hrodotos egive eidnmwv sta koivwvika, istorika, kai
> av9rwpologika 9emata;
Apo tote poy gennhse thn Istoria.
> Nomizw prepei va katalabeis oti (1) allo oi pnges ki allo n ermnveia tous,
Ti akribws ennoeis; Kryptografika ta egrafe o Hrodotos 'h mhpws egrafe
poihsh; Eilikrina den katalabainw gia poio logo enas sygxronos istorikos
poy diabazei Hrodoto 0a prepei na 0ewreitai egkyroteros toy prwtotypoy.
Skespoy to ligo kai meta grapse.
An moy peis oti den anaferei swstoys ari0moys strateymatwn, skepsoy
ligo oti kaneis apo toys sygxronoys "ektimhtes" den htan ekei. E}alloy
Istoria den einai oi ari0moi twn strateymatwn.
> kai (2) n meletn kai katavonsn twv av9rwpistikwv kai koivwvikwv
> epistnmwv exei proxwrnsei kamposo ap'tnv epoxn tou Hrodotou.
Ayto twra poy kollaei;
H Istoria toy Hrodotoy apo ton Hrodoto den grafthke;
> Zntnsa va deix9ei oti << oi arxaioi Ellnves 9ewrousav eautous OMOE0NEIS
> (oxi aplws "Ellnves" alla sugkekrimeva avnkovtes sto idio E0NOS---kai me
> stoixeia gia to pws akribws evvoeito o oros "e9vos" tote) >>
>
> kai apavtnses oti << Ola osa zhtas periexontai sto 1o apospasma.
> Den katalabainw ti moy zhtas na pros0esw. >>, opou 1o apospasma eivai to
> << Aytis de to Ellhnikon eon omaimon te kai omoglwsson kai 0ewn idrymata
> te koina kai 0ysiai h0ea te omotropa, twn prodotas genes0ai A0hnaioys
> oyk an ey exoi. (A0hnaioi pros Lakedaimonioys, 5os aiwnas pX) >>
>
> to opoio apari9mei ta koiva xaraktnristika twv Ellnvwv, de leei pou9eva
> tipota gia "e9vos" (dev upnrxe allwste n evvoia tote)
Ma afoy to keimeno grafei:
"aytis de to Ellhnikon [toy] prodotas genes0ai A0hnaioys oyk an ey exoi."
Dhladh ayto gia sena ti einai;
> kai fusika de leei tipota gia to av oi Ellnves ntav omoe9veis.
Eilikrina den katalabainw poy egkeitai to problhma ths katanohshs soy.
Dhladh an to apospasma elege: "omoe0neis gar Ellhnes esmen", tote 0a soy
ekane, enw otan leei "aytis de to Ellhnikon eon omaimon te kai omoglwsson
kai 0ewn idrymata te koina kai 0ysiai h0ea te omotropa" de soy kanei;
8eleis dhladh na deis th le}h "e0nos" grammenh; Ayto einai to zhthma;
De 0a ypokypsw ston peirasmo na sxoliasw thn episthmonikothta ayths ths
apaithshs soy. Apla 0a soy dwsw ayto poy zhtas:
"Apekri0h ek palaiteroy toy barbaroy e0neos to Ellhnikon [e0nos] eon kai
de}iwteron kai eyh0eiês hli0ioy aphllagmenon mallon."
Hrodotos, Istoriai 1.60.3
H le}h "e0nos" mesa stis agkyles prosete0h apo mena, kai elpizw na
antilambanesai oti h ypar}h ths yponoeitai safws.
Nomizw oti ta pragmata de 0a mporoysan na einai pio }eka0ara.
Kala }ypnhtoyria!
> Na kai o sxoliasmos: << To 1o apospasma
> eipw0hke ligo prin th maxh stis Plataies, otan oi synaspismenoi Ellhnes
> etoimazotan na antimetwpisoyn toys Perses. Einai meros toy logoy twn
> A0hnaiwn poy dikaiologei thn arnhsh toys na symmaxhsoyn me to Mardonio.
> To 0ewreis ayto to plaisio asxeto me th syzhthsh mas; Xwris thn ennoia toy
> e0noys poios einai kat' ese o logos gia ton opoio oi A0hnaioi den
> symmaxhsan me ton Mardonio tote; >>
>
> Kata kapoiov tropo esu 9ewreis oti epeidn oi A9nvaioi ebriskav oti exouv
> perissotera koiva me tous Lakedaimovious para me to Mardovio kai tous
> Perses automatws suvagetai to sumperasma oti 9ewrousav eautous omoe9veis
> me tous Lakedaimovious
Afoy to lene oi an0rwpoi: "TO ELLHNIKON" !
> kai epipleov xwris alln e3ngnsn to parapavw apavta kai sto pws 9ewrouv
> tnv evvoia tou e9vous.
Ma afoy kai ayto to orizoyn oi an0rwpoi: "omaimon te kai omoglwsson kai
0ewn idrymata te koina kai 0ysiai h0ea te omotropa". Ti den katalabaineis;
> Epeidn dev eivai "asxeto me tn suzntnsn mas" (to dexomai oti dev eivai)
> de snmaivei oti ti9etai kai zntnma "e9vous".
Epanalambanw:
"Apekri0h ek palaiteroy toy barbaroy e0neos to Ellhnikon [e0nos] eon kai
de}iwteron kai eyh0eiês hli0ioy aphllagmenon mallon."
Hrodotos, Istoriai 1.60.3
> > La0os. Oi latinoamerikanoi den exoyn mono Ispanikh katagwgh. Exoyn
> > afrikanikh, Tolmekikh, Aztekikh, Inkaikh kai paei legontas. Den exeis
> > pote sth zwh soy dei panw apo enan [Ispanofwno Amerikano];
>
> Loipov oi snmerives [ispanofwnes amerikavikes] koivwvies exouv safws
> ta omotropo omoglwsso omo9rnsko
Symfwnw.
> kai omaimo, toulaxistov sto ba9mo pou ta eixav oi diaforoi arxaioi Ellnves
> kai pi9avws perissotero ap'oso ta exouv oi Neoellnves, pou exouv upostei
> diafores prosmi3eis (megales n' mikres, dev exei megaln snmasia gia to
> sugkekrimevo zntnma) me kata kairous kataktntes kai kataktnmevous.
Diafwnw:
a) Oi Ispanofwnoi Amerikanoi den einai "omaimoi". Mono apo thn apopsh toy
mege0oys toy plh0ysmoy na to deis, dystyxws xaneis, ase thn synanthsh
olwn twn fylwn toy kosmoy sthn Ispanofwnh Amerikh.
b) Oi "diaforoi arxaioi Ellnves" htan.
c) Oi Ellhnes shmera einai epishs, isws se mikrotero ba0mo apo toys Arxaioys.
> Av oi [Ispanofwnoi Amerikanoi] dev exouv to omaimo para tnv kata kurio
> logo ispavikn katagwgn tous (estw kai movo sta astika kevtra av 9es)
> tote dev tnv exouv oute oi Neoellnves (movo tous Arbavites kai tous
> Blaxous va baleis xa9nkes) opote paei peripato n e9vikotnta sou.
Oi Ellhnes shmera, opws exw }anapei, exoyn mono mia Dinarikh (dhladh
Albanikh) amelhtea an0rwpologikh diaforopoihsh apo toys palaioteroys
katoikoys ths xwras. To omaimo kai pali isxyei, mono poy einai elaxista
diaforetiko "omaimo" apo to palaiotero. An 0es na katalabeis, katalabaineis.
Egw pantws prospa0hsa.
> Av pali oi [Ispanofwnoi Amerikanoi] exouv to omaimo (evw profavws dev eivai
> omoe9veis) tote o katalagos xaraktnristikwv pou apari9mnses ws apodeiktika
> tou arxaiou ellnvikou e9vous de mporei va 9ewrn9ei oti suvepagetai e9vikn
> tautotnta opote paei peripato n e9vikotnta twv arxaiwv nmwv progovwv.
Ma den exw akoysei kanena na milaei gia toys Ispanofwnoys Amerikanoys etsi:
"Apekri0h ek palaiteroy toy barbaroy e0neos to Ellhnikon [e0nos] eon kai
de}iwteron kai eyh0eiês hli0ioy aphllagmenon mallon."
Hrodotos, Istoriai 1.60.3
An exeis ypopsh soy kati, se parakalw dei}to moy.
> >> Apo kei kai pera de blepw pws "paradextnka" oti n ta "n9n/e9n dev eivai
> >> arketo stoixeio gia tn xalkeusn e9vikns suveidnsns".
> >
> > Parathrwntas oti den exei dhmioyrgh0ei tetoia sthn Ispanofwnh Amerikh.
>
> Am sto lew egw oti exeis logika problnmata. Paratnrwvtas oti dev exei
> dnmiourgn9ei koivn e9vikn suveidnsn stnv Ispavofwvn Amerikn sumperaivoume
> oti ta politismika stoixeia dev eivai arketa gia tnv automatn dnmiourgia
> koivns e9vikns suveidnsns (kai malista evavtia se diaspastika politika
> sumferovta).
Swsta.
> To av mporei me basn movo tetoia politismika stoixeia (kai isws oute kav
> auta) va xalkeu9ei e9vikn suveidnsn mesw kratikns propagavdas DEN mporei
> va suvax9ei apo tnv parapavw paratnrnsn (des sto le3iko ti snmaivei
> "xalkeuw", mporei ekei va eivai to problnma sou).
Syggnwmh, exeis dikio. Ennow "dhmioyrgia", an ekei einai to problhma soy.
Pote moy de milhsa gia propaganda. Eisai ektos 0ematos.
> >> gia tn "xalkeusn" eivai kai paraeivai arketo arkei va eivai kaln
> >> n propagavda.
> >
> > P'ws e}hgeis loipon thn apotyxia ths;
>
> Giati, egive propagavda dnmiourgias lativoamerikavikns e9vikns suveidnsns
> kai dev to avtilnf9nka;
Nai, alla ayto to zhthma einai ektos 0ematos.
> >> Dioti av isxue auto tote 9a eixame eviaia e9vikn tautotnta stnv
> >> kevtrikn kai lativikn Amerikn, pragma pou profavws dev isxuei.
> >
> > Symfwnw. Apaiteitai kai koinh katagwgh.
>
> Dev eivai oute avagkaia (Isranl, Ellada)
Einai anagkaia: Israhl, Ellada.
> oute ikavn (Xiln-Argevtivn) suv9nkn.
Symfwnw.
> H e9vikn suveidnsn eivai *upokeimeviko* xaraktnristiko evw oi diafores
> politismikes kai biologikes paratnrnseis avaferovtai se *avtikeimevika*
> xaraktnristika.
Epeidh egw den zw se oytopikoys kosmoys, 0ewrw thn e0nikh syneidhsh
ws syndeomenh me antikeimenika zhthmata.
Den einai tipota, apla sygxeeis pali thn e0nikothta me thn politografia.
Amerikanoi polites yparxoyn. "Amerikanoi" to e0nos den yparxoyn.
Opws moy eipe kai o Leon, Kinezos Amerikanos poliths:
"I just call myself an American".
Kai epanalalambanw gia pollosth fora:
O Nanopoylos symfwna me sena den einai Ellhnas, einai Amerikanos to e0nos.
> H suvdesn meta3u tous dev eivai automatn oute logikn alla isws va eivai
> eukolotero va plastei suveidnsn otav uparxouv arketa koiva stoixeia para
> otav uparxouv ligotera (alla pote mnv upotimas mia kaln propagavda).
Biwsimh syneidhsh dhmioyrgeitai mono otan yparxoyn ta aparaithta koina
stoixeia kai entelws asxeta me opoiadhpote propaganda:
"Ayta ta agalmata, osa talira kai na sas dwsoyn, na mhn katadexthte na
fygoyn apo thn patrida mas. Gi' ayta polemhsame."
Kala }ypnhtoyria.
> >> Aporriptw to dikaiwma sou va exeis apoyn ep'autwv,
> >
> > To dikaiwma toy Hrodotoy, toy Plh0wna kai toy Makrygiannh to aporripteis
> >epishs; Apanta se parakalw epiteloys na teleiwnoyme...
>
> Oloi autoi eixav dikaiwma va dnlwvouv tnv proswpikn tous tautotnta
> kai pws tnv katalabaivav (pou to ekavav), opws to idio dikaiwma exoume esu
> ki egw.
Aytoi omws miloyn kai ek meroys olwn twn allwn, opote milame pleon gia thn
dhlwsh ths taytothtas twn Ellhnwn.
> Dev tous 9ewrw basimes pnges gia tnv evvoia tou e9vous bebaia, dioti
> dev meletnsav auto to pragma oi av9rwpoi,
Ti eprepe na melethsoyn kai den to melethsan;
> opws dev to meletnsame oute ki egw n' esu.
Ma emeis meletame aytoys, ton Hrodoto, ton Plh0wna kai ton Makrygiannh.
> Tn diafora mporeis va tnv katalabeis n' oxi;
Poia diafora;
P K
Petros Petropoulos
plnroforeiwv pou mas edwses bre Bourla. Egw omws allo rwtnsa: Pro
tou 1997 o Matiebits eixe dwsei pavugnriknv omiliav eis EMP kai eixe
proskomisei stoixeia kai alla timalfn pou upostnrizouv tis apopseis tou.
Tauta stoixeia kai timalfn mas eixes pei oti 0a apotelesouv to evausma
gia ereuves evtos EMP. Gi'autes tis ereuves rwtw.
Petros
Yiannis Koutalos
> Esas omws
> kai tis me9odous sas mporw va sas aporriyw ws skeptomevos av9rwpos, ws
> eidikos stnv epistnmovikn me9odologia,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Epitelous! Toson kairo epsaxna san ton Diogenh enan EIDIKO sthn
EPISTHMONIKH ME0ODOLOGIA! Kai epitelous, doksasmeno t' onoma tou
Fagiarampent, ton brhka!
Soulh 'm, ase tous Ellhnes hsuxous kai rikse ta fwta sou loipon: poia
einai auth h episthmonikh me0odologia panw sthn opoia eisai eidikos?
Einai to antikeimeno ths eidikothtas sou uparkto? 'H apla prospa0eis na
komplareis ton la.iko Karra anaferomenos se anuparktes me0odologies,
ekmetalleuomenos thn episthmonistikh propaganda pou exei "xalkeusei" mia
me0odologia aout ooub na0ingk?
Dwse ta fwta sou! Poia einai h episthmonikh me0odologia?
kremasmenos apo ta plhktra sou
giannhs
UG: Eimai se nomail, opote cc: gia proswpiko plhz.
Athanassios Protopapas
ev tns apousias sou tn apogvwsei mpas kai skaseis mutn.... pou nsouva
re otav trwgame ta oikologika kai glwssologika moustakia me tous allous
suvkafevobious; Diakopeues stn Sifvo (n' stn Lero); Kai twra gurises
3afvika kai apaiteis kai avalusn tns eidikotntas mou;
PRITS!
>Grafei o Soulhs:
>
>> Esas omws
>> kai tis me9odous sas mporw va sas aporriyw ws skeptomevos av9rwpos, ws
>> eidikos stnv epistnmovikn me9odologia,
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Epitelous! Toson kairo epsaxna san ton Diogenh enan EIDIKO sthn
>EPISTHMONIKH ME0ODOLOGIA! Kai epitelous, doksasmeno t' onoma tou
>Fagiarampent, ton brhka!
1. Ase tov Fagierampevt katw ektos av exeis kaveva epistnmologiko tsitato
tns prokopns dioti me ta koivwvika tou plaisia kai ta apotuxnmeva takliv
peri texvologikns avaptu3ns ta'xei kavei salata dia pavtos.
>Soulh 'm, ase tous Ellhnes hsuxous kai rikse ta fwta sou loipon: poia
>einai auth h episthmonikh me0odologia panw sthn opoia eisai eidikos?
2. Ws epistnmwv (me episnmn adeia avagvwrismevn apo tn die9vn epistnmovikn
koivotnta pou epavdrwvei ta ekpaideutika idrumata pou upokeivtai se elegxo
apo eidikes epitropes kai apovemouv titlous epistnmovikotntas klp klp klp)
eimai bona fide (kai prima facie kai alla lativika) eidikos tns epistn-
movikns me9odologias opws kai o udraulikos eivai eidikos tns udraulikns
me9odologias kai o tabladoros eidikos tns zarias kai tou pola baru.
Epipleov, ws autoxris9eis 9ematofulakas twv epistnmovikwv arxwv kai
me9odwv, kai proedros tns movomelous epitropns gia tnv prostasia tou
aplou politn apo tnv epistnmovizousa plnv yeudn propagavda (gevikws),
oudolws upoxreoumai va apokaluyw tis proavafer9eises arxes kai me9odous
(n' va tis 3erw kav o idios)---arkei va tis prosexw.
>Einai to antikeimeno ths eidikothtas sou uparkto? 'H apla prospa0eis na
>komplareis ton la.iko Karra anaferomenos se anuparktes me0odologies,
>ekmetalleuomenos thn episthmonistikh propaganda pou exei "xalkeusei" mia
>me0odologia aout ooub na0ingk?
3. Opwsdnpote n deutern apo tis parapavw epiloges eivai asugkrita pio
deleastikn apo tnv prwtn kai e3etazw sobara to evdexomevo va tnv
uio9etnsw (bale bre paidi mou omws ki esu ligo vero sto krasi sou, oxi
kai "aout ob va9ivgk", toses fores tsakisame ta govata mas stnv trufern
nlikia twv pevte, pws vomizeis oti ma9aivetai to podnlato;)
>Dwse ta fwta sou! Poia einai h episthmonikh me0odologia?
4. Twra me bazeis se peirasmo va apokaluyw ola ta mustika tns eswterikns
stoas stous amuntous kai adaeis pou periferouv tn saliarizousa glwssa tous
apo tov evav ka9ngntn stov allov mpas kai apoktnsouv ki autoi kapote ta
eusnma (kai to ynlo kapelo) tns adeias e3asknsews epistnmovikns tromokratias.
Allwste prokeitai peri agkistriou 100% dioti 3ereis polu kala oti stnv
pra3n n epistnmovikn me9odologia brisketai edw kai kairo kapou meta3u
Ockham, Popper, Kuhn, kai metamovtervas mparoufologias (koivwvika plaisia
kai trixes katsares), xwris va exei 3exasei tnv paradosiakn me9odo tns
paratnrnsns-ermnveias-probleyns-epaln9eusns. Esu twra trwgesai gia to
av n kataskeun 9ewrias (ermnveia) eivai eleu9ern lipous, xolnsterivns,
kai koivwvikooikovomikwv epirrowv, av eivai inductive n' deductive
(ellnvika kaveis;), kai eviote gia tnv ovtologia tns 9ewrias kai tnv
epistnmologia tns epaln9eusns. Kala kai agia ola auta kai mporei va
ta suzntame mexri va bare9ei o Feidias va briskei apospasmata (9ou Kurie
fulakn tw stomati mou) alla egw evdiaferomai gia tnv efarmogn tns aplns
logikns (vai tou filou sou tou Aristoteln, ekeivou pou eixe apoyn epi
pavtos epistntou kai malista kata tekmnrio lav9asmevn, plnv logikns)
meta3u twv avwterw stadiwv. Ka9ws kai gia tnv or9n efarmogn kai ermnveia
tns statistikns avalusns, opou dei, kai tns telikns sumperasmatologias
---se laiko glwssiko idiwma---pou ofeilei va diatnreitai ka9arn, xwris
lekedes koivwvikopolitikwv epitagwv.
Alla prwtistws kai kuriws evdiaferomai gia tnv or9n efarmogn twv gnpedikwv
praktikwv stnv nlektrovikn epikoivwvia, gia tn diatnrnsn tns kafeveiakns
atmosfairas, kai basika va poume gia to xabale tns upo9esns.
>kremasmenos apo ta plhktra sou
>giannhs
5. Wsautws, 3ekremasou kai xalarwse priv piastouv ta xeria sou (n', av protimas,
ta podia sou ta mprostiva---allwste n gevetikn mas diafora apo tous pi9nkous
dev epitrepei tetoies ba9eies ovomatologikes tomes), pare ba9ies avases,
kai bour stov patsa. Avamevw evagwviws.
0avasns
-allou-
Athanassios Protopapas
"gevvnse tnv Istoria" kai ws ek toutou automatws prepei va 9ewreitai
eidnmwv se koivwvika, istorika, kai av9rwpologika 9emata. Tromern blakeia,
avta3ia twv prongoumevwv sou (eutuxws oi giatroi snmera de sumfwvouv mazi sou
alliws avti gia to JAMA kai to Lancet 9a diabazav...Ippokratn). To pio
evdiaferov eivai oti stnv paratnrnsn
>> Nomizw prepei va katalabeis oti (1) allo oi pnges ki allo n ermnveia tous,
"apavtas"
> Ti akribws ennoeis; Kryptografika ta egrafe o Hrodotos 'h mhpws egrafe
>poihsh; Eilikrina den katalabainw gia poio logo enas sygxronos istorikos
>poy diabazei Hrodoto 0a prepei na 0ewreitai egkyroteros toy prwtotypoy.
Prose3e twra va doume ti katalabaiveis: O Hrodotos DEN eivai istorikos
me tn snmerivn evvoia, kai ta grapta tou DEN eivai "istoria" opws eivai eva
sugxrovo biblio istorias. O Hrodotos eivai "pngn" stnv opoia basizovtai oi
sugxrovoi istorikoi (oi opoioi exouv meletnsei oxi movo tis pnges gia ta
gegovota tou parel9ovtos, alla kai tn me9odo tns istorikns meletns: pws
dnladn va prospa9ouv va kataln3ouv se akribeis ektimnseis gia to ti suvebn
basismevoi sto ti exei graftei kai eipw9ei apo ta emplekomeva mern) gia va
ektimnsouv, dedomevwv oswv 3eroume gia tov Hrodoto, tous sugxrovous tou,
kai tnv epoxn tou, tnv a3ia twv graptwv tou kai va sumperavouv kapoia pragmata.
Opws kavouv kai me ta Omnrika epn (me alla sumperasmata, logw tou diaforetikou
eidous twv keimevwv), me tnv Agia Grafn, kai me ta apomvnmoveumata tou ka9e
Kaisara, Makrugiavvn, kai Tswrtsil. To gegovos oti dev mporeis va katalabeis
tis diafores autes eivai profaves, efosov avaferesai kai se arxaious "epistn-
moves" evw me tn snmerivn evvoia tou orou KANENAS dev ntav duvato va eivai
epistnmwv, ektos av broume stoixeia gia tn sustnmatikn tous (ektos polu9rovas)
meletn faivomevwv kai tnv apopeira epaln9eusns probleywv basismevwv stis 9ewries
tous. (I don't think so)
Gia ta peri e9vous klp arketa asxoln9nka mazi sou, av pisteueis oti avafores
sto "Ellnvikov" suvepagovtai e9vikn omoiogeveia me geia sou me xara sou.
Xara stous "eurwligourndes" (mersi dia tnv upev9umisis Feidias).
Kai dou koubevtes gia tous Lativoamerikavous:
>a) Oi Ispanofwnoi Amerikanoi den einai "omaimoi". Mono apo thn apopsh toy
> mege0oys toy plh0ysmoy na to deis, dystyxws xaneis, ase thn synanthsh
> olwn twn fylwn toy kosmoy sthn Ispanofwnh Amerikh.
Dev uparxei "suvavtnsn olwv twv fulwv tou kosmou" gevika kai aorista stn
Lativikn Amerikn. E3airoume kat'arxnv gia tn suzntnsn autn (opws dnlwsa
e3'arxns) tis mn ispavikes apoikies (gallikes, portogalikes, ollavdikes)
kai mevoume me tnv e3ns katastasn: Pavtou n "arxousa" ta3n apoteleitai apo
asprous ki ap'tov nlio 3e3asproterous ispavogeveis kataktntes evw n katwtern
ta3n apoteleitai kuriws apo Ivdiavous (gngeveis pln9usmous dnladn) stis
xwres opou autoi dev e3ovtw9nkav (p.x. Perou) n' apo Ispavogeveis kai meta-
gevestera Italous, Germavous, k.a. metavastes (p.x. Argevtivn, opou dev
exouv meivei kai polloi Gkouaravi va pouv tnv istoria tous). Xwres opws
to Me3iko kai n Xiln exouv snmavtiko pososto apogovwv gngevwv pln9usmwv
alla twv sxetika apomovwmevwv agrotikwv/oreivwv perioxwv e3airoumevwv n
maza tou laou eivai omotropn omoglwssn omo9rnskn kai vai omoaimn pros autes
twv omorwv kratwv, allwste n katavomn gngevwv pln9usmwv DE sumpiptei me
tn snmerivn kratikn diairesn, suvepws pln9usmoi plnsiov (kai ekaterw9ev)
kratikwv suvorwv eivai polu pio omaimoi ap'oso 9a sou arese. To kratame
auto to kommati dioti 9a mas 3avaxreiastei.
>b) Oi "diaforoi arxaioi Ellnves" htan.
0a eixe evdiaferov va doume pws mporei va ntav, mata3u dwrikwv, aiolikwv,
iwvikwv, kukladikwv, prwto-ellnvikwv, meta-ellnvikwv, meso-ellnvikwv, kai
allwv diaforwv "Ellnvikwv (kat-ese) fulwv" kai malista se tetoio ba9mo pou
va tous 9ewreis gevetika pio kovtivous ap'o,ti tous Peroubiavous me tous
Bolibiavous gia paradeigma (kai oi duo avami3eis Ispavwv me Ivkas, xovtrika).
>c) Oi Ellhnes shmera einai epishs, isws se mikrotero ba0mo apo toys Arxai=
>oys.
Pali kala pou ebales kai to "isws". Na sou 9umisw movo tn gewgrafikn suvexeia
pou legame parapavw: O katoikos tns Kozavns eivai kata pasa pi9avotnta pio
kovta gevetika stov katoiko tou Movastnriou (pou se kammia periptwsn de 9ewrei
tov eauto tou Ellnva, allwste de 9ewrei tov eauto tou kav katoiko Movastnriou
alla katoiko Bitola) ap'o,ti stov katoiko tns Lakwvias. Av suvupologisoume
tous prosfuges pou futeutnkav stn Makedovia gia tnv araiwsn tou slabikou
stoixeiou tote n pi9avotnta suggeveias me tous boreious geitoves mikraivei
alla n pi9avotnta suggeveias me tous votious suv-Ellnves dev au3avetai.
Opws isws va exeis akousei, kata tn diarkeia tns O9wmavikns kuriarxias stn
Makedovia eixame mia salata ligo ap'ola (e3'ou kai n gallikn le3n gia tnv
avamiktn salata: macedoine, av dev kavw la9os). Argotera kai me basn kuriws
9rnskeutikes kai ligotero glwssikes protimnseis egive eva "3eka9arisma" me
tnv evvoia oti kapoioi pngav apo kei, kapoioi meivav apo dw, kai dev uparxei
kavevas logos va pisteuoume oti o diaxwrismos egive pavw se gevetikes diaxw-
ristikes grammes. Ta pragmata mple3ave akoma perissotero otav perasav apo tnv
apo kei meria tou surmatoplegmatos kai ta apomeivaria tou ELAS kai au3nsav
to ekei pososto tou ellnvikou DNA :-) (Abdul, bale xeri eleu9era)
Me duo logia: To "omaimo" eivai posotnta suvexns kai e3isou amfisbntoumevn
idiotnta gia tous arxaious kai sugxrovous Ellnves oso kai gia tous Lativo-
amerikavous, Ivdous, Kivezous, kai allous "laous" me koives rizes (kai af9oves
epimei3ies). Kai epipleov tou abebaiou tou orismou isxuei kai to abebaio
tns xrnsimotntas gia tov orismo "e9votntwv" kai twv suveidnsewv tous.
Teleia kai paula.
Oso gia to:
> Den einai tipota, apla sygxeeis pali thn e0nikothta me thn politografia.
dustuxws dev eivai etsi (uparxei le3n "politografia"; apo pote;).
H i9ageveia eivai kati pou orizetai leitourgika kai safws, eivai diakritn
posotnta, kai exei kai koivwvikn xrnsimotnta. De 9a ntav pote duvato va
sugxew me autnv tnv e9vikotnta, gia tn opoia suzntame, kai gia tnv opoia
upostnrizw oti eivai upokeimevikn kai amfilegomevn, pollakis axrnstn plnv
patriwtismou, kai basizetai se kritnria suvexn kai eviote diforoumeva.
> Amerikanoi polites yparxoyn. "Amerikanoi" to e0nos den yparxoyn.
Megalo la9os. Polloi Amerikavoi polites 9ewrouv tous eautous tous Amerikavous
me tov idio tropo pou egw 9ewrw tov eauto mou Ellnva (oxi oloi fusika) kai
exouv safws Amerikavikn e9vikn suveidnsn (kai tragoudave kai tov e9viko tous
umvo priv apo ka9e agwva mpeizmpol kai eivai diate9eimevoi va dwsouv tn zwn
tous gia va upostnri3ouv dis gkrent kavtri klp klp). Episns uparxouv polloi
Amerikavoi polites pou exouv kivezikn, ellnvikn, italikn, n' kapoia alln
e9vikn suveidnsn, kai polloi pou dev exouv kammia e9vikn suveidnsn kai adiafo-
rouv plnrws gia to 9ema para tis epimoves prospa9eies tou amerikavikou kate-
stnmevou va tous evswmatwsei sto sustnma kai va tous emfusnsei ta patriwtika
idavika gia ta opoia 9a pave va skotw9ouv gia tnv timn tou petrelaiou n'
va sfa3ouv a9wous laous stn skakiera twv die9vwv sfairwv epirrons.
> O Nanopoylos symfwna me sena den einai Ellhnas, einai Amerikanos to e0n=
>os.
Tis Gkaimpelikes praktikes sou va tis baleis stov kwlo sou Karra.
Auto pou les eivai aduvato va sumbaivei dioti egw dev edwsa, de skopeuw
va dwsw, ki exw e3ngnsei giati 9ewrw avousio va uparxouv, kritnria e9vikns
summetoxns (avti9eta apo seva). To av o Navopoulos eivai Ellnvas n' Amerikavos
eivai diko tou 9ema, oxi movo epeidn de se afora, alla kuriws epeidn eivai
dikia tou apofasn kai oxi dikia sou.
Pavtws twra pou gurise o Koutalos lew va payw va asxoloumai mazi sou kai
sou suvistw va payeis ki esu va asxoleisai mazi mou kai va kaveis auto
pou n fusn se orise. (Hint: gvwstos suvHELLASitns paratnrnse prosfatws oti
"o Karras prepei va eivai o movadikos Ellnvas pou exei paei Norbngia kai
de gamei".) To oti exei xiovi e3w de snmaivei oti blepeis kai asprn mera.
0avasns
-allou-
Harris P. Karaolides
<snip apisteutou paralnrnmatikou 3espasmatos>
> Esu twra trwgesai gia to
> av n kataskeun 9ewrias (ermnveia) eivai eleu9ern lipous, xolnsterivns,
> kai koivwvikooikovomikwv epirrowv, av eivai inductive n' deductive
> (ellnvika kaveis;), kai eviote gia tnv ovtologia tns 9ewrias kai tnv
> epistnmologia tns epaln9eusns. Kala kai agia ola auta kai mporei va
inductive = epagwgikadeductive = sumperasmatika
XK (eteros epistnmovikos me9odologos)
Yannis Papakonstantinou
Mia sxetika aploiki, plin poniri, erwtisi gia tous antiepistimonistes.
Loipon, aytoi panw-katw lene oti mia thewria den antiproswpeyei tin
alitheia kai den dikaiwnetai apo to kata poso sympiptei me tin alitheia.
Dikaiwnetai apo to an douleyei stin praksi kai ousiastika ftiaxnetai an
exei na eksypiretisei mia praktiki anagki. Ws computer scientist, xwros
opou kat'eksoxin exoume kai to maxairi kai to karpouzi symfwnw 100% me to
parapanw, toulaxiston oson afora to CS an kai pote-pote ypopsiazomai oti
kapoia vasi exoun osoi lene oti eimaste engineers kai oxi scientists (emena
proswpika sta rx/ mou an eimai scientist n' an den eimai.) Telos pantwn,
parasyrthika. Epistrefw sto erwtima:
An loipon oi antiepistimonistes ypostirizoun oti kathe thewria exei mia
praktiki atzenta tote poia einai i praktiki atzenta twn antiepistimonistwn
kai giati ftiaksane tin antiepistimoniki thewria pou ftiaksane? An diladi
kathe axlada exei pisw tin oura deon opws kseroume ti kouvalaei kai i dikia
tous axlada.
---Anipsios
Panagiotis J. Karras
O Hrodotos htan eidikos sthn Istoria twn Persikwn Polemwn.
Esy pisteyeis oti:
a) O Hrodotos den htan istorikos.
b) Yparxei "me0odos istorikhs meleths", agnwsth ston Hrodoto.
g) O Arximhdhs den htan episthmonas. (oyte poy to katalabes oti se problepw)
d) Yparxei "episthmonikh me0odos", agnwsth ston Arximhdh.
e) Oi anafores sto "Ellhnikon" apo Hrodoto, Paysania, Diogneh, klp, den
anaferontai se kapoio e0nos.
st) Oi Ispanofwnoi Amerikanoi einai perissotero omaimoi apo toys Ellhnes.
z) Den yphr}an Ellhnika fyla.
h) Sto Oslo to kalokairi xionizei.
Epeidh bare0hka, anazhthse sto:
me krithrio "Greek nation" kai }estrabwsoy.
Meta dei}e moy enan "Amerikano" to e0nos polith alloy kratoys ektos twn HPA.
P K
Yiannis Koutalos
> Aaaaaa epitelous! Gurise! A re Koutale ma ti avagkazomai va dnlwvw
> ev tns apousias sou tn apogvwsei mpas kai skaseis mutn.... pou nsouva
> re otav trwgame ta oikologika kai glwssologika moustakia me tous allous
> suvkafevobious;
Diabaza alla sugkrath0hka. Eida me apognwsh tis SarantaPetrakikes
korwnes uper tou episthmonikou katesthmenou kai enantia ston agno
dikasth ths 0essalonikhs, alla apofasisa na mhn milhsw... (nai, opote
mas sumferei to Suntagma 0eloume na to prostateusoume. Bebaia leme oti to
Suntagma xreiazetai orismenes metarru0miseis, alla mono ekeines pou mas
aresoun. O 0essalonikios dikastikos exei diaforetikes apopseis apoti
fainetai, ti na kanoume).
Esu pantws Soulh erikses EIDIKO agkistri kai me ebgales.
> 1. Ase tov Fagierampevt katw ektos av exeis kaveva epistnmologiko tsitato
> tns prokopns dioti me ta koivwvika tou plaisia kai ta apotuxnmeva takliv
> peri texvologikns avaptu3ns ta'xei kavei salata dia pavtos.
To stoma sou na to pleneis me organiko sapouni protou na anaferesai ston
Paulo. Oriste mas. "Scientists have more money, more authority, more sex
appeal than they deserve." (mhn xaskete skoulhkia, gia sas to leei. An
den exete parei xampari th gohteia sas den ftaiei o Paulos).
> 2. Ws epistnmwv (me episnmn adeia avagvwrismevn apo tn die9vn epistnmovikn
> koivotnta pou epavdrwvei ta ekpaideutika idrumata pou upokeivtai se elegxo
> apo eidikes epitropes kai apovemouv titlous epistnmovikotntas klp klp klp)
> eimai bona fide (kai prima facie kai alla lativika) eidikos tns epistn-
> movikns me9odologias
Koita ti ma0ainei kaneis sto kafeneio: oti uparxoune anagnwrismena
pitsinti se "episthmonikh me0odologia", etsi genika ki aorista. Gia des.
Ki egw pou nomiza oti oi me0odologies einai polu sugkekrimenes kai
ta pitsinti anagnwrizontai apo tis episthmonikes suntexnies me bash th
sugkekrimenh me0odologia pou ma0ainei o neos papas, eee..., episthmonas
h0ela na pw. Etsi, exoume pitsinti se xhmeia (skampazei apo xhmikes --
kai malista orismenes mono -- me0odologies o neos), se fusikh,
mhxanologia, kompiouteroepisthmh, klp, klp. Kai bebaia, den mporei h
suntexnia twn xhmikwn na krinei ta pitsinti ths suntexnias twn mhxanologwn
giati 0a ginei to ela na deis. Oute h suntexnia twn dikhgorwn krinei ta
ptuxia ths suntexnias twn giatrwn.
Opote paramenoume sto problhma ths "episthmonikhs me0odologias". Ti
einai? Pou didasketai? Pws anagnwrizetai?
> opws kai o udraulikos eivai eidikos tns udraulikns
> me9odologias kai o tabladoros eidikos tns zarias kai tou pola baru.
> Epipleov, ws autoxris9eis 9ematofulakas twv epistnmovikwv arxwv kai
> me9odwv, kai proedros tns movomelous epitropns gia tnv prostasia tou
> aplou politn apo tnv epistnmovizousa plnv yeudn propagavda (gevikws),
> oudolws upoxreoumai va apokaluyw tis proavafer9eises arxes kai me9odous
> (n' va tis 3erw kav o idios)---arkei va tis prosexw.
Twra 0a soulega auta pou eipes ston Karra, alla afenos men den eimai esu,
afeterou esu den eisai o Karras, opote ...
> >Einai to antikeimeno ths eidikothtas sou uparkto? 'H apla prospa0eis na
> >komplareis ton la.iko Karra anaferomenos se anuparktes me0odologies,
> >ekmetalleuomenos thn episthmonistikh propaganda pou exei "xalkeusei" mia
> >me0odologia aout ooub na0ingk?
>
> 3. Opwsdnpote n deutern apo tis parapavw epiloges eivai asugkrita pio
> deleastikn apo tnv prwtn kai e3etazw sobara to evdexomevo va tnv
> uio9etnsw (bale bre paidi mou omws ki esu ligo vero sto krasi sou, oxi
> kai "aout ob va9ivgk", toses fores tsakisame ta govata mas stnv trufern
> nlikia twv pevte, pws vomizeis oti ma9aivetai to podnlato;)
Ma den diafwnhsa pote sto oti uparxoune episthmonikes me0odologiES. Alla
h afairesh (abstraction) "episthmonikhs me0odou" apo to plousio xwrafi twn
me0odologiwn apotelei xalkeush (m' aresei auth h leksh) metakswths
kordellas apo fukia. Oxi, den 0' agorasw.
> 4. Twra me bazeis se peirasmo va apokaluyw ola ta mustika tns eswterikns
> stoas stous amuntous kai adaeis pou periferouv tn saliarizousa glwssa tous
> apo tov evav ka9ngntn stov allov mpas kai apoktnsouv ki autoi kapote ta
> eusnma (kai to ynlo kapelo) tns adeias e3asknsews epistnmovikns
tromokratias.
> Allwste prokeitai peri agkistriou 100% dioti 3ereis polu kala oti stnv
> pra3n n epistnmovikn me9odologia brisketai edw kai kairo kapou meta3u
> Ockham, Popper, Kuhn, kai metamovtervas mparoufologias (koivwvika plaisia
> kai trixes katsares),
To "Strong Program" tou Edimbourgou me tous Barnes, Shapin, Bloor,
Pickering einai METAMONTERNA mparoufologia? Oi an0rwpoi akolou0hsan
akribws thn paradosiakh -- kai ka0olou episthmonikh -- me0odo pou
anafereis parakatw, kai eidane oti h episthmonikh me0odos, etsi genika kai
aorista, apotelei antikeimeno ths fantasias twn episthmonistwn.
> xwris va exei 3exasei tnv paradosiakn me9odo tns
> paratnrnsns-ermnveias-probleyns-epaln9eusns.
Eseis oi episthmonistes eisaste teleiws fataoules. Oti douleuei san
me0odos to lete "episthmoniko". Ma akoma ki o ximpatzhs xrhsimopoiei auth
thn me0odo gia na parei thn mpanana. Akomh kai to pontiki tou psuxologou
th xrhsimopoiei gia na faei. Den eida omws to episthmonopapadario na
xorhgei didaktorika stous ximpatzhdes kai sta pontikia. Porke'?
Otan milaw gia episthmh anaferomai stous epaggelmatikopoihmenous tomeis
gnwshs (0ewriwn kai me0odwn) pou anagnwrizontai apo ta sugxrona
ekpaideutika idrumata. Eseis oi propagandistes anafereste kai s' autous
tous tomeis (aneksarthta apo to kata poso douleuoun kai prosferoun 'h oxi
alla boutate kai tis me0odous pou leitourgousan kai leitourgoun,
aneksarthta apo to kata poso anhkoune stous koinwnika apodektous
epaggelmatikopoihmenous tomeis.
> Esu twra trwgesai gia to
> av n kataskeun 9ewrias (ermnveia) eivai eleu9ern lipous, xolnsterivns,
> kai koivwvikooikovomikwv epirrowv, av eivai inductive n' deductive
> (ellnvika kaveis;), kai eviote gia tnv ovtologia tns 9ewrias kai tnv
> epistnmologia tns epaln9eusns.
Eksakolou0eis na mplekesai giati pisteueis oti shmantikes einai oi
kataskeues 0ewriwn. Shmasia exoune oi me0odologies (pou bebaia pane
xeri-xeri me 0ewries, an kai oxi panta) ka0oti autes einai pou exoune ta
praktika apotelesmata. Posws endiaferei h uparksh 0ewrias an h me0odos
douleuei sthn praksh. De lew, kalo einai na uparxei h 0ewria, alla, px, h
klassikh mhxanikh kai hlektromagnhtismos xrhsimopoiountai eurutata, ka0oti
oi me0odologies tous douleuoun, asxeta me to an kapoioi fusikoi lene gia
0ewries sxetikothtas, kbantikes hlektrodunamikes kai de summazeuetai.
> Kala kai agia ola auta kai mporei va
> ta suzntame mexri va bare9ei o Feidias va briskei apospasmata (9ou Kurie
> fulakn tw stomati mou) alla egw evdiaferomai gia tnv efarmogn tns aplns
> logikns (vai tou filou sou tou Aristoteln, ekeivou pou eixe apoyn epi
> pavtos epistntou kai malista kata tekmnrio lav9asmevn, plnv logikns)
> meta3u twv avwterw stadiwv.
To na onomazeis th logikh sou aplh den sunista epixeirhmatologia. Na sou
0umisw ton Aristotelh, opws kai ton Paulo, pou sou lene oti "epixeirhma =
ergaleio gia thn allagh ths gnwmhs kapoiou". Apo kei kai pera, to
kseskisma twn rouxwn sou uper ths "aplhs logikhs" einai klassikh
or0ologistikh propagandistikh taktikh sthn prospa0eia sou na bgeis sto
morallu xa.i gkraount gia tous skopous ths antipara0eshs sou me ton
la.iko Karra. To exoume ksanadei to swou.
> Ka9ws kai gia tnv or9n efarmogn kai ermnveia
> tns statistikns avalusns, opou dei, kai tns telikns sumperasmatologias
> ---se laiko glwssiko idiwma---pou ofeilei va diatnreitai ka9arn, xwris
> lekedes koivwvikopolitikwv epitagwv.
Mpour-mpour-mpour. Ta idia elege ki o Galilaios pou h0ele na ginei o
Pa'pas sth 0esh tou Pa'pa (ola h0ele na ta sfazei, ola h0ele na ta
maxairwnei). Ton phrane xampari oi Ihsouites omws kai thn katapie thn
glwssa tou prin tou thn kopsoun.
To 0ema den einai ti ginetai se periptwsh sumfwnias gia ta
apotelesmata ths sumperasmatologias, alla ti ginetai se periptwsh
diafwnias. Esu apla fwnaskeis oti exeis dikio, apeu0unomenos bebaia oxi
ston la.iko Karra, alla stous loipous episthmonistes kai exontes
koina epaggelmatika/koinwnika sumferonta me sena. Fusika kai 0a
sumfwnhsoun mazi sou bebaia. Giou ar prhtsingk tou de conberthnt (sh
ampab gia to ti shmainei epixeirhma gia na mhn mplekomaste).
Sthn praksh, opote uparxei diafwnia gia ta apotelesmata ths
sumperasmatologias, h diamaxh lunetai POLITIKA. Poios exei to pio baru
xeri, to makrutero matsouki, ta perissotera lefta, mparmpades, klp., 'h,
opws 0alege o Planck, poios 0a ekpaideusei thn epomenh genia outws wste na
meinei h sumperasmatologia otan oi antipaloi ths pe0anoun. To exoume dei
pollakis to swou.
> Alla prwtistws kai kuriws evdiaferomai gia tnv or9n efarmogn twv gnpedikwv
> praktikwv stnv nlektrovikn epikoivwvia, gia tn diatnrnsn tns kafeveiakns
> atmosfairas, kai basika va poume gia to xabale tns upo9esns.
Panta. To 0ema einai oti o la.ikos Karras prepei na ekshghsei ti ton
koftei gia thn ellhnikothta poiwnwn kai giati. Na katalaboume ki emeis oi
upoloipoi agnoi la.ikoi giati polemaei etsi 0arralea, san Ellhnas,
enantia sto episthmoniko katesthmeno.
Giati xtupiesai etsi Panagh giabroum? Ti se noiazei apo pou bastaei h
skoufia sou? Kai kala ama -- an0rwpos eisai, bitsia exeis -- se noiazei
mono gia to apo pou krataei h dikia SOU h skoufia. Parathrw omws oti den
arkeisai na peis oti esu eisai apogonos tou Periklh, alla mplekeis ki
allous. Ki ekei kollaei to prama. Exeis tipota sto mualo sou gia to
poioi prepei na 0ewrountai ellhnes polites kai poioi oxi?
giannhs
Athanassios Protopapas
O Diodwros leei oti oi Lakedaimovioi "oudevos e9vous ellnvikou tns
avdreias eleipovto"!!! (to diabases arage;---exw pe9avei sto gelio
giati mporei va vomizeis oti o tupos evisxuei tn 9esn sou)
O Pausavias, to 2o m.X. aiwva avaferetai sto "Ellnvikov" kai stous
"Ellnves" (oroi pou metafrazovtai eviote -- 4 fores -- ws "Greek nation").
"No more results."
2. Evdexomevws n prwnv guvaika tou prwnv prw9upourgou mas (dev tnv exw rwtnsei
av viw9ei Amerikava). Kata pasa pi9avotnta pln9os apo Joes kai Jacks
amerikavakia ws ta mpouvia pou gkastrwsave allodapes plnsiov basewv
katoikoedreuouses kai mia kai eixe kai kalutero kairo eipav va parouv
ellnvikn i9ageveia kai va katsouv movimws sto vnsi.
0avasns
-allou-
Lida Anestidou
>
>
> O Hrodotos htan eidikos sthn Istoria twn Persikwn Polemwn.
karra mou, sto dhmosio ths odou naiadwn h sthn kopsaxila, se opoio phges telos
pantwn, de sou eipe kammia ka8hghtria oti o hrodotos *den* 8ewreitai istorikos
me
thn swsth, oloklhrwmenh shmerinh ennoia?
egw 8umamai xarakthristika na mas lene pws nai men htan o prwtos pou ekane
suneidhth katagrafh gegonotwn parallhla me th genesh kai e3eli3h tous, alla pws
ena swro pragmata exei pros8esei af'eautou tou, opws proswpikes kriseis,
xarkthrismous, istorioules apo tous papoudes pou ma8aine kai alla polla. Nai,
men,
o Hrodotos prwtos eftia3e ena istoriko suggrama, alla apo aposh
antikeimenikothtas
kai or8hs katagrafhs gegonotwn xwlainei o ermos.
de sas to'pe kaneis auto? de sas eipe pws basiko gnwrisma tou istorikou einai h
antikeimenikothta?
> a) O Hrodotos den htan istorikos.
blepe parapanw
> b) Yparxei "me0odos istorikhs meleths", agnwsth ston Hrodoto.
malista. h shmerinh me8odos istorikhs meleths diaferei apo auta pou leei o
hrodotos. kai gia na mh pame makria, hdh apo kairo 3enofwnta h katagrafh eixe
parei pio coherent baseis. (mpai thi gouei, o 3enofwn den einai autos pou
egrapse
thn "kurou anabasin"? o kuros den htan basilias twn Mhdwn? den anhkoun sta
persika auta?h kanw la8os? o hrodotos den asxolh8hke me ta pio prin?)
> g) O Arximhdhs den htan episthmonas. (oyte poy to katalabes oti se problepw)
ti sxesh exei h istoria ws episthmh me ton arximhdh?
> d) Yparxei "episthmonikh me0odos", agnwsth ston Arximhdh.
blepe anwterw erwthsh?
> e) Oi anafores sto "Ellhnikon" apo Hrodoto, Paysania, Diogneh, klp, den
> anaferontai se kapoio e0nos.
anaferontai sto e8nos, opws o Hrodotos, px, to eixe kata nou.Auto pou den
edei3es
*akomh* einai an auto pou o Hrodotos 8ewrouse ws e8nos isodunamei me auto pou
leme
e8nos shmera. Shmera, gia paradeigma, leme oti e8nos ellhniko (ypo8etikws h
kuriolektikws, den exei shmasia) einai auto pou ta melh tou aplwnontai sta
sunora
apo katw apo albania/gioukoslabia/boulgaria apo borra, tourkia apo anatolh, kai
8alassa apo notia kai dutika. O hrodotos, me thn anafora tou sto e8nos
"ellhniko"
ti ennoouse, as poume, me bash ta sunora? ennoouse e8nos ellhniko=polh-kratos
twn
a8hnwn? ths sparths? ths 8hbas? ths Mhlou? ths a8hnas kai sparths mazi? twn
plataiwn? ti akribws?
> st) Oi Ispanofwnoi Amerikanoi einai perissotero omaimoi apo toys Ellhnes.
pws einai dunaton na uparxei omaimia otan h ellada den uphr3e pote apomonwmenh
apo
katakthtes?otan autoi oi katakthtes gonimopoihsan, pantreythkan, paidomazw3an,
metoikhsan, alwsan kai alwnisan th gewgrafikh perioxh ths elladas na mhn exoun
eisxwrhsei ta gonidia tous mesa sto upostrwma twn arxaiwn gonidiwn?
as katalh3oume, omws, prwta sto an o hrodotos ennoouse to idio e8nos me auto pou
ennnooume shmera, kai meta as paroume enan enan tous eisboleis na doume poso mas
brwmisan h oxi.
> z) Den yphr}an Ellhnika fyla.
h prosonumia "ellhnika" einai metagenesteros xarakthrismos karra mou, apo
istorikous kai melethtes twn katopinwn xronwn, gia xarhn perigrafikhs eukolias.
Oso de mas les an o orismos ellhnikou e8nous kata thn arxaiothta isoutai me ton
shmerino orismo, de mporeis na pairneis th le3h kai na th srhsimopoieis kata pws
8es xwris na dikaiologeis to giati.
> h) Sto Oslo to kalokairi xionizei.
kanei kruo,kairos gia duo,
bre karra mou,
ante bre pasa mou.
to arxidiabolaki>:>
Athanassios Protopapas
Souln va peis to prwto sou paidi kai va eivai kai Soulns.
>To stoma sou na to pleneis me organiko sapouni protou na anaferesai ston
>Paulo. Oriste mas. "Scientists have more money, more authority, more sex
>appeal than they deserve." (mhn xaskete skoulhkia, gia sas to leei. An
>den exete parei xampari th gohteia sas den ftaiei o Paulos).
Kat'arxnv protimw ta sapouvia mou avorgava kai, ei duvatov, akouvnta.
Oso gia tov Paulo lupoumai alla dev katalabaivw giati tov avafereis se
epistnmologiko plaisio. O av9rwpos koivwviologikn avalusn kavei (kai
mpazei kiolas gia ta kala, kai grafei kai toso bareta pou vusta3a sxedov
oso kai diabazovtas tov--apaixto--Popper). Kai o Kuhn kuriws koivwviologikn
avalusn kavei alla toulaxistov avaferetai kai stn me9odo apo epistnmologikn
apoyn ektos apo to koivwviko tns plaisio. Kai av exoume perissotern e3ousia
(emeis oi epistnmoves lew) ap'osn a3izoume, sto fivale magka mou exoume
tosa fragka osa tous pei9oume va mas dwsouve kai toses gkomeves oses pei9oume
va mas katsouve---ama eseis ta briskete polla va prospa9nsete perissotero,
de sou ftaiw egw. O Paulos dev eipe tipota apolutws gia tnv ovtologia twv
9ewriwv oute gia tnv epistnmologia tous, evw eipe polla kai diafora giati
de sumpa9ei tous empeiristes kai loipous positibistes rasiovalistes klp klp
giati dev tov paizouve sto sxoivaki tous kai dev to afnvouv va gluyei tnv
koutala (oxi proswpika evdexomevws alla opws ki esu ki o Chomsky egrafe
gia xariv ki ek merous twv avwvumwv kai afwvwv mazwv---my ass).
Adiaforw plnrws toso gia to koivwviko plaisio avaptu3ns twv 9ewriwv oso
kai gia tis oikovomikes pieseis kai tis (avti-?)femivistikes taseis tou
sustnmatos xrnmatodotnsns (allwste se etaireia douleuw, de xreiazetai va
knvugaw politikws or9es xorngies apo tov ka9e papara pou epiase karekla sto
NSF (leme twra). H epistnmovikn me9odos afora stnv paragwgn tns gvwsns,
to eidos tns gvwsns pou 9ewreitai apodekto kai to pws krivetai kai a3iologeitai
autn n gvwsn.
>Koita ti ma0ainei kaneis sto kafeneio: oti uparxoune anagnwrismena
>pitsinti se "episthmonikh me0odologia", etsi genika ki aorista. Gia des.
>Ki egw pou nomiza oti oi me0odologies einai polu sugkekrimenes kai
>ta pitsinti anagnwrizontai apo tis episthmonikes suntexnies me bash th
>sugkekrimenh me0odologia pou ma0ainei o neos papas, eee..., episthmonas
>h0ela na pw. Etsi, exoume pitsinti se xhmeia (skampazei apo xhmikes --
>kai malista orismenes mono -- me0odologies o neos), se fusikh,
>mhxanologia, kompiouteroepisthmh, klp, klp. Kai bebaia, den mporei h
>suntexnia twn xhmikwn na krinei ta pitsinti ths suntexnias twn mhxanologwn
>giati 0a ginei to ela na deis. Oute h suntexnia twn dikhgorwn krinei ta
>ptuxia ths suntexnias twn giatrwn.
Ase ta peri9wriaka peri "suvtexviwv" giati 9a gurisei va se dagkwsei...
esu to pitsivti sou apo tov orgavismo nvwmevwv e9vwv to pnres; Profavws
kai ta avwtera diplwmata krivovtai apo eidikous (gia tnv akribeia apo para
polu eidikous---dev mporei opoiosdnpote xnmikos va krivei opoiovdnpote upoynfio
didaktora xnmeias, logw twv e3eidikeumevwv gvwsewv pou apaitouvtai), alla
H ME0ODOS eivai mia kai o mpaklabas gwvia. Pairvovtas to didaktoriko upoti-
9etai (se orismevous kladous, se allous dev prospoiouvtai kav) oti eisai
gvwstns twv ergaleiwv tou kladou sou kai tns me9odou tns 9rnskeias sou, dnladn
tns epistnmns. (0rnskeia dioti apaitei pistn stnv upar3n aln9eias, me tnv
ovtologikn evvoia, aparvnsn twv soliyistikwv tasewv, kai pistn se leptes
evvoies opws aitiotnta, e3akribwsn, kai de summazeuetai. Kai giati me empveeis
otav avaferesai sto epistnmovopapadario kai aerizovtai oi kaltsodetes mou.)
>Opote paramenoume sto problhma ths "episthmonikhs me0odologias". Ti
>einai? Pou didasketai? Pws anagnwrizetai?
Didasketai dia diarkous yuxologikou (ki eviote kuriolektikou) skampilismou
kata tn diarkeia twv metaptuxiakwv spoudwv, opou o ekpaideuomevos ekti9etai
stadiaka sto ba9os tns agvoias tou kai stous tropous me tous opoious mporei
va tn diairei (tnv agvoia) se mikrotera kommatia "sxetikns" agvoias. Eivai
n suvais9nsn tns apostasns tou paratnrnsimou apo to probleyimo kai tns
apostasns tou sumperasmatos pou 9eloume va bgaloume apo ta dedomeva apo to
sumperasma pou 9a mas epitreyouv oi reviewers tou kalou periodikou va grayoume
xwris va mas to bgalouv apo tn mutn. Avagvwrizetai dia tns apovomns tou
didaktorikou, episnmws, alla avepisnmws apo ta sxolia stous diadromous twv
suvedriwv. Kuriws, epi tou prokeimevou, avagvwrizetai dia tns dnlwsns mou
kai tns parousas uperaspisns meta tnv (epitelous) epi9esn sou.
>Ma den diafwnhsa pote sto oti uparxoune episthmonikes me0odologiES. Alla
>h afairesh (abstraction) "episthmonikhs me0odou" apo to plousio xwrafi twn
>me0odologiwn apotelei xalkeush (m' aresei auth h leksh) metakswths
>kordellas apo fukia. Oxi, den 0' agorasw.
Epistnmovikn me9odos dev eivai ta ergaleiakia tou ka9e kladou kai parakladiou.
Eivai n xalivagwgnmevn epixeirnmatologia kai n austnrn efarmogn twv ka9e
ergaleiwv sta erwtnmata tou kladou. Eivai kai n epilogn twv erwtnmatwv pou
diamorfwvouv tov klado alla edw exoume allnloepikaluyn me yuxiatrika zntnmata
kai lew va mnv upeisel9w. Kai av 9ewreis oti prokeitai gia fukia eisai eleu-
9eros va grafteis sto church of scientology, sto zen friends of USA, stous
proskopous, sto femivistiko sullogo tns geitovias sou, n' stov istioploiko
omilo tns dikias mou. H dnlwsn sou oti "de 9'agoraseis" prosferei stn
meletn tns epistnmovikns me9odou osa akribws kai ta biblia tou filou sou
tou Paulou (pou egraye "kata tns me9odou" xwris va avafer9ei kav stn me9odo
alla loidwrwvtas tous 9ematofulakes kai to koivwviko tous plaisio ws allos
prostatns twv mazwv apo tn vea megaln suvwmosia): tipota dnladn.
Paromoiws oi suxrovoi mpourdologoi 9ewrouv oti oi avazntnseis tou Popper
eivai ektos 9ematos---eleu9era, alla stn dikia mou suzntnsn auto eivai to
9ema kai sto katw katw de sas upoxrewvei kaveis va to suzntnsete.
>Eseis oi episthmonistes eisaste teleiws fataoules. Oti douleuei san
>me0odos to lete "episthmoniko". Ma akoma ki o ximpatzhs xrhsimopoiei auth
>thn me0odo gia na parei thn mpanana. Akomh kai to pontiki tou psuxologou
>th xrhsimopoiei gia na faei. Den eida omws to episthmonopapadario na
>xorhgei didaktorika stous ximpatzhdes kai sta pontikia. Porke'?
Pi9avws to problnma va egkeitai sto oti arvouvtai va apavtnsouv tis
erwtnseis tns e3etastikns epitropns sto thesis defense n' mporei n
or9ografia tous va eivai problnmatikn. De gvwrizw. Edw omws blepoume
sugxrovous apogovous twv koivwv progovwv mas me to ximpatzn va upostnrizouv
oute ligo oute polu oti (if p then q) ==> (if q then p) opote kapou mallov
xwlaivei to epixeirnma sou peri pagkosmiotntas tns epistnmovikns me9odou.
Meta eivai kai to allo: otav leme paratnrnsn-upo9esn-probleyn-e3akribwsn
avaferomaste se formalistikn upo9esn n' toulaxistov protasiakn, oxi se
statistiko mnxavismo epituxous probleyns (e3'ou kai ta veurwvika diktua
ws upokatastata formalistikwv movtelwv eivai akatallnla in principle av
kai eparkestata stnv pra3n gia probleyn), dnladn se 9ewria (alla eipame,
emeva me evdiaferei n fusn kai n kataskeun twv 9ewriwv evw esu pas kai
platsourizeis sta koivwvika plaisia kai paristaveis oti de mas diveis
snmasia). Kai evas kalos logos pou to kavoume auto eivai gia va apofugoume
to faivomevo Karra & sia, opou mia paratnrnsn (p.x. o oros "Ellnves" se
arxaio ellnviko keimevo) odngei se mia gevikn dnlwsn (p.x. oti oi arxaioi
Ellnves 9ewrousav eautous omoe9veis) xwris kav va oristouv oi oroi (p.x.
"e9vos") kai va ermnveu9ouv sto katallnlo plaisio (glwssa kai suv9nkes
tns epoxns). Apo tnv alln exoume stn sugkekrimevn periptwsn pollaples
aduvamies, p.x. evw to problnma mou eivai kata kurio logo stn diadikasia
e3agwgns tou sumperasmatos (ka9oti avtiepistnmovikn) katngoroumai oti diafwvw
me to sumperasma ka9eauto, gia to opoio dev exw kaveva evdiaferov. Ki edw
blepw problnmata gia ta povtikakia tou yuxologou (av kai oi yuxologoi dev
polupaizouv pia me povtikakia). Twra giati ka9omai kai sou grafw
ola auta stnv paparia me to ximpatzn dev exw idea, profavws dev exw kai
empveusn, sou afnvw tov povto me to agkistri kai suvexizw.
>Eksakolou0eis na mplekesai giati pisteueis oti shmantikes einai oi
>kataskeues 0ewriwn. Shmasia exoune oi me0odologies (pou bebaia pane
>xeri-xeri me 0ewries, an kai oxi panta) ka0oti autes einai pou exoune ta
>praktika apotelesmata. Posws endiaferei h uparksh 0ewrias an h me0odos
>douleuei sthn praksh. De lew, kalo einai na uparxei h 0ewria, alla, px, h
>klassikh mhxanikh kai hlektromagnhtismos xrhsimopoiountai eurutata, ka0oti
>oi me0odologies tous douleuoun, asxeta me to an kapoioi fusikoi lene gia
>0ewries sxetikothtas, kbantikes hlektrodunamikes kai de summazeuetai.
H klasikn mnxavikn kai o nlektromagvntismos xrnsimopoiouvtai stnv efarmogn
tns epistnmovikns gvwsns (p.x. avaptu3n texvologias) me dedomeva ta gvwsta
apo tn 9ewria oria tous. Stnv epistnmovikn ereuva tns fusikns de vomizw
va asxoleitai kaveis me klasikn mnxavikn kai nlektromagvntismo, avti9etws
knvugave kati xordes kai fouskes kai diafora alla e3wtika pragmata pou
aporreouv eu9ews apo tis 9ewries kai exouv vonma movo evtos twv 9ewrntikwv
tous plaisiwv. Egw mperdeuomai n' esu exeis avakateyei tnv paragwgn tns
gvwsns (epistnmn) me tis efarmoges tns (texvologia);
>To na onomazeis th logikh sou aplh den sunista epixeirhmatologia. Na sou
>0umisw ton Aristotelh, opws kai ton Paulo, pou sou lene oti "epixeirhma =
>ergaleio gia thn allagh ths gnwmhs kapoiou". Apo kei kai pera, to
>kseskisma twn rouxwn sou uper ths "aplhs logikhs" einai klassikh
>or0ologistikh propagandistikh taktikh sthn prospa0eia sou na bgeis sto
>morallu xa.i gkraount gia tous skopous ths antipara0eshs sou me ton
>la.iko Karra. To exoume ksanadei to swou.
Oute to "klasikn or9ologistikn propagavdistikn taktikn" eivai epixeirnma.
Ki evw afairesn tns le3ns "apln" apo tnv protasn mou DE meiwvei tnv isxu
tou epixeirnmatos, avti9eta afairesn tou parapavw afairei ta pavta apo
to diko sou. Ektos apo tn diafwvia sou pou ovomasa tn "logikn" "apln logikn"
exeis kaveva problnma n' 9a eivai mnpws wra va mazeueis ta propagavdistika;
Mnpws prepei va arxisoume va dexomaste tous aerokatebatous isxurismous tou
ka9e grafikou gia va mnv kivduveuoume va mas kakoxaraktnriseis oti poulame
mourn;
>To 0ema den einai ti ginetai se periptwsh sumfwnias gia ta
>apotelesmata ths sumperasmatologias, alla ti ginetai se periptwsh
>diafwnias. Esu apla fwnaskeis oti exeis dikio, apeu0unomenos bebaia oxi
>ston la.iko Karra, alla stous loipous episthmonistes kai exontes
>koina epaggelmatika/koinwnika sumferonta me sena. Fusika kai 0a
>sumfwnhsoun mazi sou bebaia. Giou ar prhtsingk tou de conberthnt (sh
>ampab gia to ti shmainei epixeirhma gia na mhn mplekomaste).
>
>Sthn praksh, opote uparxei diafwnia gia ta apotelesmata ths
>sumperasmatologias, h diamaxh lunetai POLITIKA. Poios exei to pio baru
>xeri, to makrutero matsouki, ta perissotera lefta, mparmpades, klp., 'h,
>opws 0alege o Planck, poios 0a ekpaideusei thn epomenh genia outws wste na
>meinei h sumperasmatologia otan oi antipaloi ths pe0anoun. To exoume dei
>pollakis to swou.
Auto eivai politiko kai oxi epistnmoviko 9ema. Na pas va suzntnseis ta
koivwviologika sou me tov Avnyio giati egw evdiaferomai gia tis fusikes
epistnmes (kai tous afusikous epistnmoves) kai tnv kataskeun 9ewriwv,
oxi gia to poios exei to pio makru matsouki (pavtws ama 9eleis tis
metrame :-)).
0avasns
-allou-
Athanassios Protopapas
>de sas to'pe kaneis auto? de sas eipe pws basiko gnwrisma tou istorikou einai h
>antikeimenikothta?
Poia avtikeimevikotnta; Ti'vai touto giabroum; (kala to kavw Koutale;)
0avasns
-allou-
Lida Anestidou
ase kata meros tis sofisteies, dioti einai polu shmantikotero na
ennohsei o karras ta dusnohta pou tou les, para na arxisoume
ampelofilosofies gia to an kai ti einai kai poios th brhke kai pou thn
poulane thn antikeimenikothta.
upoti8etai oti sumfwname pws enas istorikos prepei na apofeugei tis
proswpikes kriseis kai thn katagrafh gegonotwn pou den exoun apodeixtei
h den exei diaforetikes optikes gwnies gia auta. ama de sumfwname oute
sta basikotera, e, paw gia broubes.
PS. Karra, sthn erwthsh gia ton 3enofwnta grapse la8os, mea culpa, ta
mperdepsa (opws me plhroforhsen paidi eugeniko kai timio, mh-omws-gnhsio
tekno ths mhteras ellados)
lhda
Yannis Papakonstantinou
>
>> Mia sxetika aploiki, plin poniri, erwtisi gia tous antiepistimonistes.
>
>
wraia. tha mou epitrepseis parakatw na dwsw mia perilipsi tis apantisis
sou giati den eimai sigouros oti katalavainw ti les.
>Na milhsw gia to geniko zhthma tou rolou ths episthmhs sth sugxronh
>koinwnia kai meta gia thn proswpikh mou topo0ethsh (gia tous
>anti-episthmonistes den kserw, ka0oti kukloforoun polla frouta kai
>zarzabatika katw apo authn thn tampela).
>
>To zhthma einai oti stis sugxrones koinwnies h episthmonikh gnwsh einai h
>koinwnika apodekth kai legitimated. Oxi mono auto, alla h episthmonikh
>gnwsh einai praktika aparaithth gia thn ka0hmerinh mas zwh (thleoraseis,
>autokinhta, mpompes, kompiouters, ...). Me thn ekseidikeush omws kai thn
>poluplokothta ths episthmonikhs gnwshs, h gnwsh panw sthn opoia sthrizetai
>h ka0hmerinh mas zwh den einai prosbasimh se olous (basika se kanenan).
>Auth h katastash dhmiourgei kamposa problhmata, me tous eidikous na einai
>aparaithtoi gia to opoio problhma parousiazetai. Auto den einai zhthma
>mono gia ton la.iko Karra, alla kai gia ton megalontaba, o opoios prepei
>na zhthsei ta fwta twn eidikwn (kai na antimetwpisei ta sumferonta twn
>eidikwn sthn diadikasia auth) gia ta diafora problhmata.
>
>Ws edw kala kai gnwsta. Me bash ta parapanw, uparxei mia genikh dusforia
>gia ton rolo ths episthmhs (blepe kai Ntollu) kai mia prospa0eia -- kuriws
>apo ta panw -- na katanoh0ei o rolos ths episthmhs sthn koinwnia, kai, ei
>dunaton, na kanalizaristei sumfwna me ta sumferonta tou ntaba kai oxi
>sumfwna me ta sumferonta twn eidikwn. Eks ou kai h diaxush ths
>metamonternas mparoufologias sthn opoia anafer0hke o Soulhs. O ntabas
>dinei lefta na meleth0ei o rolos ths episthmhs se ba0os kai platos, oi
>kainourgioi kritikoi ekfrazoune ena karo apopseis, agwnies, anhsuxies,
>mparoufes...
En perilipsei diladi les oti oi "antiepistimonistes" xrimatodotountai apo
tous palaiontavades pou anisixoun oti oi eidikoi apoktoun dynami kai
ekselisontai se neontavades. Kati diladi san prospatheia tis Washington na
pidiksei to Valley (egw eimai me to Valley:)
>
>H proswpikh mou stash twra. 0ewrw oti o rolos ths episthmhs sthn sugxronh
>koinwnia exei polla dusaresta apotelesmata, kuriws logw ths or0ologistikhs
>paradwshs ths episthmhs (auto den einai kainourgio insight, tope o Nitse
>prin 100-tosa xronia, kai apauton ksekinhsan ki oles oi sugxrones
>kritikes). To problhma nomizw oti einai ideologiko -- oi episthmes exoun
>koinh IDEOLOGIA, oxi me0odo, Soulh -- kai einai h ideologia, h
>or0ologistikh ideologia pou dhmiourgei koinwnika problhmata. H
???????
pws diladi dimiourgise o orthologismos koinwnika provlimata?
>episthmonistikh propaganda (bl px Popper) parousiazei thn koinh ideologia
>san koinh me0odologia, alla bebaia se kontinh analush to fantasma ths
>koinhs episthmonikhs me0odou dialuetai (bl epomenh epistolh pros Soulh).
>Ta dusaresta apotelesmata ths or0ologistikhs ideologias taxoune 0iksei
>arketoi. Na anaferw px thn grafeiokratikopoihsh ths koinwnias (mesa
>kai apo thn episthmonikh gnwsh) -- o fobos tou Weber autos, 'h thn
>ideologikh dikaiologhsh tou deskilling tou ergatikou dunamikou mesa apo
>thn efarmogh episthmonikwn diadikasiwn paragwghs-- toxoune koitaksei o
>Braverman kai o Noble
Stasou re Yanni, ayta anaferontai sto 1930 kai tin paragwgi tou montelou T
apo tin Ford. Oso gia tin grafeiokratikopoiisi itan (einai) mia mallon
perastiki katastasi, oxi idiaitera orthologiki, kai mporw na sou eksigisw
kai to giati alla variemai kai tha vgalei polla asxeta parakladia i kouventa.
Vasika, osoi lene tetoia koitane katholou gyrw tous na doun ti ginetai TWRA
n' grafoun oti thewria tous katevei kai trexoun sta "antiepistimonika"
epistimonika synedria na kanoun allaksokwlies metaksy tous? (opws kathe
kalos asxetologos epistimwn allwste)
>(dinw emfash sto ideologiko, ka0oti h episthmh einai
>apla ena kainourgio ergaleio gia ntabatziliki. Ntabatziliki uphrxe kai
>prin thn anaptuksh ths episthmhs).
>
>To 0ema einai oti h episthmh, h paragwgh gnwshs genikotera, einai politikh
>diadikasia. Einai shmantiko loipon na ksedialunoume ta ideologika
>fantasmata (tou or0ologismou) gia na asxolh0oume amesa me thn politikh
>diadikasia.
>
Koutale, Koutale! Tetoies travigmenes triples ekane ki o Denilson kai ta
eidame ta apotelesmata:)
Nomizw ta pragmata einai poly pio apla sto 90% twn periptwsewn. H
politiko/oikonomiki apofasi dimiourgei ena "market pull" se perioxes pou
parousiazoun oikonomiko n' ntavatzidiko endiaferon. Klasiki periptwsi einai
i atomiki vomva. Siga kai min peftane tris dolaria se ereyna gia to atomo
kai alla mystiria pou oute ta eidame pote mas an den ypirxe i politiki
piesi gia vomves. Ws edw symfwnoume.
Diafwnia prwti: H yfi tou market pull den dimiourgei alitheies alla apla
kateythynei poies thewries tha dimiourgithoun. Ki epeidi episa tin
apagoreymeni leksi na sou eksigisw ti ennow xwris ayti: Dyo epistimonikes
thewries spania exoun diaforetika symperasmata gia to idio pragma logw tis
yfis tou market pull. Alla to oti mia thewria ftiaxtike kai mia alli den
ftiaxtike einai thema market pull.
Disclaimer: eksairese apo to parapanw xwrous opou to market pull zitaei in
advance oxi mono tin thewria alla kai sygkekrimenes protaseis tis (eg,
thewries gia yparksi n' oxi enos gay gene, tis thewrw asovares by default.)
Diafwnia deyteri: pros megali lypi tou ntava, alla kai gia kapoio mystirio
logo kai dikia sou lypi, yparxei kai to technology/science push. Ayto
proerxetai en genei apo stigmes opou kapoioi typoi kanoun technology,
kanoun science giati etsi n' kanoun kati enw o ntavas plirwnei gia alla. An
koitakseis diaxronika ayto to push einai i monadiki dynami pou allazei ta
pragmata.
---Anipsios
>giannhs
>
Yiannis Koutalos
Salamalekoum Anhpsie.
> Mia sxetika aploiki, plin poniri, erwtisi gia tous antiepistimonistes.
H erwthsh einai shmantikh kai me sugkinei ba0utata pou thn kaneis.
> Loipon, aytoi panw-katw lene oti mia thewria den antiproswpeyei tin
> alitheia kai den dikaiwnetai apo to kata poso sympiptei me tin alitheia.
Den kserw ti lene oi anti-episthapotetoioi, alla 0a parathrousa oti h
"alh0eia" den einai idiaitera xrhsimh ennoia. Ama h 0ewria ki h
me0odologia ths douleuoun sthn praksh, e, leme (mazi me ton Bitgkensta.in)
oti h 0ewria alh0hs esti. Me to ti sumpiptei kai me to ti den sumpiptei h
0ewria einai praktika adiaforo.
H proswpikh mou stash twra. 0ewrw oti o rolos ths episthmhs sthn sugxronh
koinwnia exei polla dusaresta apotelesmata, kuriws logw ths or0ologistikhs
paradwshs ths episthmhs (auto den einai kainourgio insight, tope o Nitse
prin 100-tosa xronia, kai apauton ksekinhsan ki oles oi sugxrones
kritikes). To problhma nomizw oti einai ideologiko -- oi episthmes exoun
koinh IDEOLOGIA, oxi me0odo, Soulh -- kai einai h ideologia, h
or0ologistikh ideologia pou dhmiourgei koinwnika problhmata. H
episthmonistikh propaganda (bl px Popper) parousiazei thn koinh ideologia
san koinh me0odologia, alla bebaia se kontinh analush to fantasma ths
koinhs episthmonikhs me0odou dialuetai (bl epomenh epistolh pros Soulh).
Ta dusaresta apotelesmata ths or0ologistikhs ideologias taxoune 0iksei
arketoi. Na anaferw px thn grafeiokratikopoihsh ths koinwnias (mesa
kai apo thn episthmonikh gnwsh) -- o fobos tou Weber autos, 'h thn
ideologikh dikaiologhsh tou deskilling tou ergatikou dunamikou mesa apo
thn efarmogh episthmonikwn diadikasiwn paragwghs-- toxoune koitaksei o
Braverman kai o Noble (dinw emfash sto ideologiko, ka0oti h episthmh einai
apla ena kainourgio ergaleio gia ntabatziliki. Ntabatziliki uphrxe kai
prin thn anaptuksh ths episthmhs).
To 0ema einai oti h episthmh, h paragwgh gnwshs genikotera, einai politikh
diadikasia. Einai shmantiko loipon na ksedialunoume ta ideologika
fantasmata (tou or0ologismou) gia na asxolh0oume amesa me thn politikh
diadikasia.
giannhs
Yannis Papakonstantinou
> Leei o A0anassios:
>
>
>> Kai apo pote o Hrodotos egive eidnmwv sta koivwvika, istorika, kai
>
> Apo tote poy gennhse thn Istoria.
>
Karra, o Hrodotos einai PATERAS tis istorias - oxi MITERA. Profanws i
syneisfora tou einai oti tis gamise tin mana (tis Istorias:) alla den ta
pianeis ta lepta noimata pou sou stelnoun oi arxaioi...
---Anipsios
Yiannis Koutalos
> H epistnmovikn me9odos afora stnv paragwgn tns gvwsns,
> to eidos tns gvwsns pou 9ewreitai apodekto kai to pws krivetai kai
> a3iologeitai autn n gvwsn.
Oi episthmonikES me0odOI aforoun paragwgh gnwshs. Den ufistatai MIA
episthmonikh me0odos. Exoun malliasei ta daxtula mou na stelnw ta
stoixeia gia ta mpalamoutia tou Neutwna, tou Millikan, tou Galilaiou, kai
allwn arxierewn ths episthmhs. Ti me0odo xrhsimopoiousane autoi?
[xrouts]
> didaktora xnmeias, logw twv e3eidikeumevwv gvwsewv pou apaitouvtai), alla
> H ME0ODOS eivai mia kai o mpaklabas gwvia.
Mpla-mpla-mpla... Olo les oti h me0odos einai MIA alla den mas les POIA
einai. Loipon, gia na mhn kunhgame o enas thn oura tou allou: ekshghse
oso pio ka0ara mporeis poia einai auth h me0odos kai meta, ei dunaton,
steile mas ki ena paradeigmataki gia to pws nomizeis oti douleuei sthn
praksh. Hint: ta mpalamoutia twn arxierewn 0aprepe na baloun psullous st'
autia sou oti kati den paei kala kai xreiazetai na kopseis polles gwnies
mpaklaba gia na enarmoniseis 0ewria-me0odo-pragmatikothta. Alla na se
afhsw na anaptux0eis ston keno xwro... Paikse tis kaltses sou...
> Didasketai dia diarkous yuxologikou (ki eviote kuriolektikou) skampilismou
> kata tn diarkeia twv metaptuxiakwv spoudwv, opou o ekpaideuomevos ekti9etai
> stadiaka sto ba9os tns agvoias tou kai stous tropous me tous opoious mporei
> va tn diairei (tnv agvoia) se mikrotera kommatia "sxetikns" agvoias. Eivai
> n suvais9nsn tns apostasns tou paratnrnsimou apo to probleyimo kai tns
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wwwww... h sunais0hsh... Gia des pou to gkat-fhlingk egine kai
me0odos... Ti allo 0' akousw... (kala kai koinotupa ta parapanw pou
grafeis, alla apo me0odo den lene tipota -- uparxoune foberes diafwnies
kai diaforopoihseis gia ta ba0h ths agnoias tou ka0enos kai tis
sunais0hseis tou/ths).
> Epistnmovikn me9odos dev eivai ta ergaleiakia tou ka9e kladou kai parakladiou.
> Eivai n xalivagwgnmevn epixeirnmatologia kai n austnrn efarmogn twv ka9e
> ergaleiwv sta erwtnmata tou kladou.
Mpourdes. An htane etsi, giati exoume episthmonikes diamaxes kai
diafwnies? Kai giati oi diamaxes den lunontai en genei me th xrhsh
"xalinagwghmenhs" epixeirhmatologias (pali ton ksexases ton Aristotelh
sou) kai "austhrhs" efarmoghs kanonwn (otan hsoun mikros h0eles na gineis
astunomikos mhpws?)?
Ante na se ksanafhsw na paikseis me tis kaltses sou: ti apotelei kat' ese
"xalinagwghmenh" epixeirhmatologia kai ti "austhrh" efarmogh kanonwn?
Proswpika ta blepw san rhtorikous xarakthrismous. Ama uparxoune diafwnies
sthn praksh, oi xarakthrismoi sou einai axrhstoi.
> kai lew va mnv upeisel9w. Kai av 9ewreis oti prokeitai gia fukia eisai eleu-
> 9eros va grafteis sto church of scientology, sto zen friends of USA, stous
> proskopous, sto femivistiko sullogo tns geitovias sou, n' stov istioploiko
> omilo tns dikias mou. H dnlwsn sou oti "de 9'agoraseis" prosferei stn
> meletn tns epistnmovikns me9odou osa akribws kai ta biblia tou filou sou
> tou Paulou (pou egraye "kata tns me9odou" xwris va avafer9ei kav stn me9odo
> alla loidwrwvtas tous 9ematofulakes kai to koivwviko tous plaisio ws allos
> prostatns twv mazwv apo tn vea megaln suvwmosia): tipota dnladn.
> Paromoiws oi suxrovoi mpourdologoi 9ewrouv oti oi avazntnseis tou Popper
> eivai ektos 9ematos---eleu9era, alla stn dikia mou suzntnsn auto eivai to
> 9ema kai sto katw katw de sas upoxrewvei kaveis va to suzntnsete.
O Eccles, pou 0ewrouse eauton Popperiko, alla etuxe o an0rwpos nanai
peiramatikos neurofusiologos, egrapse sugkekrimena oti oi apopseis tou
Popper htane kapws "rigid" kai ektos topou kai xronou anaforika me thn
episthmonikh praktikh. To problhma tou Popper, opws kai to diko sou,
einai oti egrafe gia to pws nomize oti EPREPE na paragetai h gnwsh, asxeta
me to kata poso auto einai dunaton sthn praksh (eks ou kai to kraksimo apo
ton Bitgkensta.in kai argotera kai apo ton Lakatos, sto "Proofs and
Refutations" -- o Paulos apla xorepse kai tragoudhse sthn pista pou
ftiaksane oi alloi, giauto kai ta grafta tou exoune perissotero ton
xarakthra satiras). Me liga logia, o Popper eixe ka'lo, kai malista
megalo.
> Pi9avws to problnma va egkeitai sto oti arvouvtai va apavtnsouv tis
> erwtnseis tns e3etastikns epitropns sto thesis defense n' mporei n
> or9ografia tous va eivai problnmatikn. De gvwrizw. Edw omws blepoume
> sugxrovous apogovous twv koivwv progovwv mas me to ximpatzn va upostnrizouv
> oute ligo oute polu oti (if p then q) ==> (if q then p) opote kapou mallov
> xwlaivei to epixeirnma sou peri pagkosmiotntas tns epistnmovikns me9odou.
Apla exoune diaforetikous politikous prosanatolismous apo sena. O
Xrhstaras bebaia to leei ka0ara, o Feidias ki o Panagiwths einai apla
krupto-fasistes. Gouwt els iz nhou?
> Meta eivai kai to allo: otav leme paratnrnsn-upo9esn-probleyn-e3akribwsn
> avaferomaste se formalistikn upo9esn n' toulaxistov protasiakn
Splouts! (peftei h salamandra apo to xeri) Afou einai etsi, tote den 0a
prepei na sou einai duskolo na mas dwseis ena paradeigmataki gia to pws
douleuei autos o formalismos sthn praksh. Gia na kerdizoume xrono: protou
dwseis to paradeigma, pare upopsh sou tis gestalt eikones kai ti mas lene
gia th sxesh metaksu antilhpshs kai pragmatikothtas (basika oti den einai
monoshmanth). Kalh tuxh!
[xrits pampolla]
> Egw mperdeuomai n' esu exeis avakateyei tnv paragwgn tns
> gvwsns (epistnmn) me tis efarmoges tns (texvologia);
Epifulassomai.
> Oute to "klasikn or9ologistikn propagavdistikn taktikn" eivai epixeirnma.
> Ki evw afairesn tns le3ns "apln" apo tnv protasn mou DE meiwvei tnv isxu
> tou epixeirnmatos, avti9eta afairesn tou parapavw afairei ta pavta apo
> to diko sou. Ektos apo tn diafwvia sou pou ovomasa tn "logikn" "apln logikn"
> exeis kaveva problnma n' 9a eivai mnpws wra va mazeueis ta propagavdistika;
> Mnpws prepei va arxisoume va dexomaste tous aerokatebatous isxurismous tou
> ka9e grafikou gia va mnv kivduveuoume va mas kakoxaraktnriseis oti poulame
> mourn;
Oxi bebaia. Alla na ta peis ta pramata me to onoma tous: Karra, den
sumfwnw me auta pou les giati odhgoun se fasismo. 'H, apla, na krakseis:
"Eisai fasistas re!". Alla arxizeis kai tsampounas gia me0odologia pou
den exei akolou0h0ei kai trixes katsares. Siga mhn noiazetai o fasistas
gia me0odous.
giannhs
Panagiotis J. Karras
Allo pali kai toyto.
Pare kai ayta gia na melethseis kalytera to problhma soy:
Diabase ta ola poly prosektika:
Hrodotos, Istoriai 1.4.4:
Thn gar Asihn kai ta enoikeonta e0nea barbara oikhieyntai oi
Persai, thn de Eyrwphn kai to Ellhnikon hghntai kexwris0ai.
Hrodotos, Istoriai 7.139.5:
Elomenoi de thn Ellada perieinai eley0erhn, toyto to Ellhnikon
pan to loipon, oson mh emhdise, [A0hnaioi] hsan oi epegeirantes
kai basilea meta ge 0eoys anwsamenoi.
Hrodotos, Istoriai 7.145.2
Meta de pyn0anomenoi 3er}hn syn twi stratwi einai en Sardisi,
eboyleysanto [...] aggelous pempein omaixmihn syn0hsomenoys
pros ton Pershn, [...] keleysontas boh0eein thi Helladi [...],
fronhsantes ei pws en te genoito to Ellhnikon kai ei
synkypsantes twyto prhssoien pantes, ws deinwn epiontwn omoiws
pasi Ellhsi.
Hrodotos, Istoriai 9.30.1:
Toy sympantos toy Ellhnikoy toy synel0ontos es Plataias endeka
myriades hsan, mihs xiliados, pros de oktakosiwn andrwn katadeoysai.
Paysanias, Ellados Perihghsis 4.35.5:
Oy gar pw dhmokratian ismen allous ge h A0hnaious ay}hsantas,
A0hnaioi de prohx0hsan epi mega ap' ayths: synesei gar oikeiai
to Ellhnikon ypereballonto kai nomois tois ka0esthkosin
elaxista hpei0oyn.
Paysanias, Ellados Perihghsis 7.11.1:
Oytos o Gallos es to Ellhnikon polla men eipe, polla de kai
epra}en yperhfana.
Paysanias, Ellados Perihghsis 7.17.4:
Oy mhn Ellhsi ge e}egeneto onas0ai toy dwroy: Oyespasianoy gar meta
Nerwna ar}antos es emfylion stasin prohx0hsan, kai sfas ypoteleis te
ay0is o Oyespasianos einai forwn kai akoyein ekeleysen hgemonos,
apomema0hkenai fhsas thn eley0erian to Ellhnikon.
Paysanias, Ellados Perihghsis 8.43.5:
Osois twn yphkown politais yphrxen einai Rwmaiwn, oi de paides eteloyn
sfisin es to Ellhnikon, toytois eleipeto h kataneimai ta xrhmata es oy
proshkontas h epay}hsai ton basilews ployton kata nomon dh tina.
Erwthsh krisews:
Ti einai telos pantwn ayto "to Ellhnikon", poy metafrazetai ws:
"the Greek stock"
"the Greek race"
"the Greek blood"
"the Greek nation"
"the Greek states",
"the Greek army",
"the Greeks"
"the Greek people"
"the Greek world"
"the Greek nationality" (sto teleytaio apospasma!)
;
Perimenw apanthsh gia na teleiwnoyme mia kai kalh.
P K
Petros Petropoulos
>koinwnika apodekth kai legitimated.
Movo avamesa stous ``laymen'' pou dev dyvavtai va kavouv ki alloiws mias kai
n' they ``hated math and science in high-school'' n' then ntav ``smart enough
to absorb such complicated concepts'' (fusika kai ta dyo quotes aplws krybouv
kovtisiovivgk apo to xazokouti kai tnv MTV-style zwn pou aploxera moirazei
o vtabas). O vtabas Xouftale dev kavei to vtabatziliki tou mesw tns epistnmns
giati exei kataferei va apo-epistnmovikopoinsei tous pelates tou.
>Me thn ekseidikeush omws kai thn
>poluplokothta ths episthmonikhs gnwshs, h gnwsh panw sthn opoia sthrizetai
>h ka0hmerinh mas zwh den einai prosbasimh se olous (basika se kanenan).
Mpourdes. Av o vtabas dev upnrxe, n' eixe apofasisei diaforetika, kai o
tropos didaskalias pro tou 1960 syvexizotav (me standards, k.l.p.) tote
dev 0a eixame snmera auto to problnma.
>Auth h katastash dhmiourgei kamposa problhmata, me tous eidikous na einai
>aparaithtoi gia to opoio problhma parousiazetai.
H meta-Karter epoxn apedeikse oti les mparoufes. Oi ``eidikoi'' dev xreiazovtai
gia tipota mias kai oi pelates tou vtaba exouv pia peistei oti oi 29
kataskeuastes pluvtnriwv egivav \infty kai mpourdologouv movo metaksy tous
trwgovtas ta lefta tou forologoumevou gia tnv diaskedasn tous.
>Auto den einai zhthma
>mono gia ton la.iko Karra, alla kai gia ton megalontaba, o opoios prepei
>na zhthsei ta fwta twn eidikwn (kai na antimetwpisei ta sumferonta twn
>eidikwn sthn diadikasia auth) gia ta diafora problhmata.
Pou eides eidikous epi megalwv problnmatwv (twv opoiwv n lusn
xreiazetai epistnmn) va avtimetwpizovtai ws eidikoi ? Pare mati ta peri
Global Warming...exoume katavtnsei va blepoume debates metaksy tns gyvaikas
tou Gramm kai epistnmovwv tou noaa opou oi epistnmoves apostomwvovtai apo
dikngoriskous gamw to feleki mou...
Petros
Panagiotis J. Karras
> > Giati o e0nikos ymnos toy Ellhnikoy kratoys leei "kai san prwta
andreiwmenh";
>
> dioti anaferetai se parel9on. kai loipon?
Poio einai ayto to parel0on an den yparxei ellhniko e0nos prin to 1821;
> to poioi einai ellhnes apo autous pou anafereis 8a to koubentiasoume ama
> apofasisoume oti brhkame ton orismo. kai tetoia apofash den exoume parei
akoma.
Ton orismo ton exoyn dwsei oi A0hnaioi apo to 480px, enw ton epalh0eyei
o Gewrgios Gemistos kai o Makygiannhs.
> > Hrodotos, Istoriai 7.145.1
> >
> > Afoy ema0an oti o 3er}hs me to strato htan stis Sardeis,
> > sxediasan na steiloyn aggelioforoys gia na synapsoyn symmaxies
> > enantion toy Persh, protrepontas [toys] na boh0hsoyn thn Ellada,
> > epeidh ekrinan pws an ena ginotan to Ellhnikon kai synergazotoysan
> > pros enan koino stoxo 0a ta katafernan oloi mazi, ka0ws h apeilh
> > htan koinh gia oloys toys Ellhnes.
> >
> > Elpizw na se boh0hsei. Exw paraleipsei ta kommmatia toy arxikoy
> > keimenoy poy legane pros ta poy stelnontai oi aggeloi: Argos,
> > Sikelia, Kerkyra, Krhth (h Sikelia, bebaia, e0ewreito Ellas).
>
> kapoioi (perimenw na mas peis poioi)
Oi peri thn Ellada Ellhnes oi ta ameinw froneontes.
Dhladh:
Oi Ellhnes apo thn Ellada poy skeptotoysan ta sofwtera.
> pistepsan pws an to ellhniko pou einai diasparmeno kai xwrismeno se ena
> swro kommatia enwnotan, tote isws ta katafernan enantia stous perses. malista.
Gia thn istoria, telika ta kataferan, parolo poy kaneis ap' osoys zhthsan
boh0eia den esteile (Argos, Sikelia, Kerkyra, Krhth).
> prwta ap;ola, ena swro merh pou shmera 8ewrountai ellada, ap'oti blepw den
> htan tote (esu ta para8eses).
Oi synaspismenoi Ellhnes htan apo ton Olympo kai notia. To Argos den eixe
synaspistei, enw oi Sikelia (Syrakoyses), Kerkyra, Krhth htan oi isxyroteres
dynameis ektos ths Hpeirwtikhs Elladas notiws toy Olympoy poy den eixan
ypotagei stoys Perses. Mikrasiates kai Makedones htan hdh ypotagmenoi, enw
kapoioi alloi nhsiwtes apla den htan ypologisimes dynameis fainetai.
O Ale}andros A' ths Makedonias dhlwnei oti einai Ellhn kai to 0ewrei ayto
koinws gnwsto milwntas stoys synaspismenoys Ellhnes.
> deuteron, e3akolou8w na exw thn e3hs aporia: poious 8ewrei o hrodotos ellhnes?
Aytoys, opws toys orizoyn oi A0hnaioi. Pali 0a ta }analeme;
Aytis de to Ellhnikon eon omaimon te kai omoglwsson kai 0ewn idrymata
te koina kai 0ysiai h0ea te omotropa, twn prodotas genes0ai A0hnaioys
oyk an ey exoi.
> kai pws eginan ellhnes oi upoloipoi, dhladh oi makedones, oi argeioi, oi
> krhtes kai pws den eginan oi katoikoi ths sikelias?
Ti ennoeis;
> > Den blepw me poion tropo apirreazei thn ellhnikh omoaimia to paidwmazwma.
>
> thn araiwnei,
Na omws poy yparxoyme akoma.
> > Pws ginetai oi Boylgaroi na mhn exoyn Moggolika xarakthristika shmera,
> > parolo poy oi Boylgaroi htan Moggoloi epidromeis;
> >
> > Mallon prepei na labeis ypopsh soy:
> >
> > a) Ton ari0mo twn gamiadwn katakthtwn.
> > b) Ta koinwnika h0h sthn Ellada.
> >
> > An synexizeis na exeis apories, rwta toys an0rwpologoys kai toys
biologoys.
>
> oti 8eleis les mou fainetai.
> pws ginetai oi perissoteroi apo tous newterous ellhnes na mhn exoun thn
ellhnikh
> muth twn Kourwn kai twn Korasidwn twn agalmatwn?
Exoyn thn myth twn aggeiwn. Mperdeyeis to ideato me thn apeikonish ths
pragmatikothtas.
> poia koinwnika h8h? mpas kai nomizeis oti ta xiliades xronia katakthtwn
Poies xiliades;
> oi elhnides to'xan kleidwsei h autoktonousan san tis souliwtisses?
Stis koinwnies twn perasmenwn aiwnwn den ginontan eykola dektoi }enoi.
> > Den eimai eidikos. Egw }erw mono oti to tragoydi "Fragkosyrianh" deixnei
> > ka0ara oti oi Fragkoi sth Syro afhsan kapoia gonidia. Den }erw omws kanena
> > tragoydi opws "Moggolo0essalonikia", "Slabosoyliwtissa",
> > "Ostrogot0opolitissa", klp.
>
> an einai etsi, se ligo 8a mas peis oti exoume amerikanika gonidia epeidh
> pinoume kokakola. ma, aporw, katalabaineis ti grafeis?
Den katalabainw ti diabazw omws.
P K
Lida Anestidou
> Giati o e0nikos ymnos toy Ellhnikoy kratoys leei "kai san prwta
andreiwmenh";
dioti anaferetai se parel9on. kai loipon?
> > Shmera, gia paradeigma, leme oti e8nos ellhniko (ypo8etikws h kuriolektikws,
> > den exei shmasia) einai auto pou ta melh tou aplwnontai sta sunora apo katw
> > apo albania/gioukoslabia/boulgaria apo borra, tourkia apo anatolh, kai
> > 8alassa apo notia kai dutika.
>
> Malista.
>
> Ara o Nanopoylos, oi Pontioi, oi Ellhnokyprioi, klp den einai Ellhnes.
>
> Qraia.
oxi.egw ebala se paren8esh to upo8etikws h kuriolektikws *akribws* gia na
apomakrun8w apo thn toso problepsimh sofisteia sou. mh bazeis sto stoma mou
logia
pou den eipa. efera ena paradeigma, pou de shmainei ka8olou oti egw to aspazomai
h
oxi. htan /einai ena paradeigma orismou gia na exoume mia bash gia suzhthsh. to
poioi einai ellhnes apo autous pou anafereis 8a to koubentiasoume ama
apofasisoume
oti brhkame ton orismo. kai tetoia apofash den exoume parei akoma.
> Gymnase ligo thn nohmosynh soy:
>
> Hrodotos, Istoriai 7.145.2
> katse na ri}w kai mia "metafrash":
kala kaneis giati ta arxaia mou exoun skouriasei kai mh xasw kamia barei'a, den
kanei.
>
>
> Afoy ema0an oti o 3er}hs me to strato htan stis Sardeis,
> sxediasan na steiloyn aggelioforoys gia na synapsoyn symmaxies
> enantion toy Persh, protrepontas [toys] na boh0hsoyn thn Ellada,
> epeidh ekrinan pws an ena ginotan to Ellhnikon kai synergazotoysan
> pros enan koino stoxo 0a ta katafernan oloi mazi, ka0ws h apeilh
> htan koinh gia oloys toys Ellhnes.
>
> Elpizw na se boh0hsei. Exw paraleipsei ta kommmatia toy arxikoy
> keimenoy poy legane pros ta poy stelnontai oi aggeloi: Argos,
> Sikelia, Kerkyra, Krhth (h Sikelia, bebaia, e0ewreito Ellas).
poioi esteilan tous aggelioforous? (auto to pareleipses)leei, loipon o
Horodotos, o
opoios gia sena einai adiamfisbhthta sobarh phgh, gia mena einai enas paramu8as:
kapoioi (perimenw na mas peis poioi) pistepsan pws an to ellhniko pou einai
diasparmeno kai xwrismeno se ena swro kommatia enwnotan, tote isws ta katafernan
enantia stous perses. malista.
prwta ap;ola, ena swro merh pou shmera 8ewrountai ellada, ap'oti blepw den htan
tote
(esu ta para8eses).
deuteron, e3akolou8w na exw thn e3hs aporia: poious 8ewrei o hrodotos ellhnes?
kai
pws eginan ellhnes oi upoloipoi, dhladh oi makedones, oi argeioi, oi krhtes kai
pws
den eginan oi katoikoi ths sikelias?
>
>
> Den blepw me poion tropo apirreazei thn ellhnikh omoaimia to paidwmazwma.
thn araiwnei, dioti afairei tous gnhsious apogonous apo to edafos tou
upotagmenou
kratous afenos kai afeterou me to na dhmiourgei foniades (opws htan oi
genitsaroi)
skotwnei tous upodoulous apotelesmatika.
> Pws ginetai oi Boylgaroi na mhn exoyn Moggolika xarakthristika shmera,
> parolo poy oi Boylgaroi htan Moggoloi epidromeis;
>
> Mallon prepei na labeis ypopsh soy:
>
> a) Ton ari0mo twn gamiadwn katakthtwn.
> b) Ta koinwnika h0h sthn Ellada.
>
> An synexizeis na exeis apories, rwta toys an0rwpologoys kai toys biologoys.
oti 8eleis les mou fainetai.
pws ginetai oi perissoteroi apo tous newterous ellhnes na mhn exoun thn ellhnikh
muth twn Kourwn kai twn Korasidwn twn agalmatwn?
poia koinwnika h8h? mpas kai nomizeis oti ta xiliades xronia katakthtwn oi
ellhnides
to'xan kleidwsei h autoktonousan san tis souliwtisses?
>
>
> Den eimai eidikos. Egw }erw mono oti to tragoydi "Fragkosyrianh" deixnei
> ka0ara oti oi Fragkoi sth Syro afhsan kapoia gonidia. Den }erw omws kanena
> tragoydi opws "Moggolo0essalonikia", "Slabosoyliwtissa",
"Ostrogot0opolitissa",
> klp.
an einai etsi, se ligo 8a mas peis oti exoume amerikanika gonidia epeidh
pinoume
kokakola.
ma, aporw, katalabaineis ti grafeis?
> Blepe thn askhsh gia to spiti parapanw, ka0ws kai to mhnyma "to Ellhnikon".
nai ta eida.
kai loipon?
de blepw na apantas sto pws 8ewrouse o hrodotos to e8nos.
snip diafora faidra peri ratsismou.
> Katarxas edw den kanei kryo.
> Epeita, pisteyeis oti mono otan kanei kryo gamoyme; Katalaba...
katarxas esu mas eipes oti sto oslo xionise.
kata deuteron, blepw 3ereis kai laikes ekfraseis, kati einai kai auto
kata triton, esu oute se kruo oute se zesth to douleueis to ergaleio, an krinw
apo
ton ari8mo kai ton ru8mo munhmatwn.
kata tetarton, mia sumboulh: gamate giati xanomaste.
to arxidiabolaki>:>
Panagiotis J. Karras
> Auto pou den edei3es *akomh* einai an auto pou o Hrodotos 8ewrouse ws
> e8nos isodunamei me auto pou leme e8nos shmera.
Askhsh gia to spiti:
Giati o e0nikos ymnos toy Ellhnikoy kratoys leei "kai san prwta andreiwmenh";
Ti shmainei kai poy anaferetai to "kai san prwta";
> Shmera, gia paradeigma, leme oti e8nos ellhniko (ypo8etikws h kuriolektikws,
> den exei shmasia) einai auto pou ta melh tou aplwnontai sta sunora apo katw
> apo albania/gioukoslabia/boulgaria apo borra, tourkia apo anatolh, kai
> 8alassa apo notia kai dutika.
Malista.
Ara o Nanopoylos, oi Pontioi, oi Ellhnokyprioi, klp den einai Ellhnes.
Qraia.
> O hrodotos, me thn anafora tou sto e8nos "ellhniko" ti ennoouse, as poume,
> me bash ta sunora? ennoouse e8nos ellhniko=polh-kratos twn a8hnwn? ths
> sparths? ths 8hbas? ths Mhlou? ths a8hnas kai sparths mazi? twn plataiwn?
> ti akribws?
Gymnase ligo thn nohmosynh soy:
Hrodotos, Istoriai 7.145.2
Meta de pyn0anomenoi 3er}hn syn twi stratwi einai en Sardisi,
eboyleysanto aggelous pempein omaixmihn syn0hsomenoys pros ton
Pershn, keleysontas boh0eein thi Elladi, fronhsantes ei pws en
te genoito to Ellhnikon kai ei synkypsantes twyto prhssoien
pantes, ws deinwn epiontwn omoiws pasi Ellhsi.
katse na ri}w kai mia "metafrash":
Afoy ema0an oti o 3er}hs me to strato htan stis Sardeis,
sxediasan na steiloyn aggelioforoys gia na synapsoyn symmaxies
enantion toy Persh, protrepontas [toys] na boh0hsoyn thn Ellada,
epeidh ekrinan pws an ena ginotan to Ellhnikon kai synergazotoysan
pros enan koino stoxo 0a ta katafernan oloi mazi, ka0ws h apeilh
htan koinh gia oloys toys Ellhnes.
Elpizw na se boh0hsei. Exw paraleipsei ta kommmatia toy arxikoy
keimenoy poy legane pros ta poy stelnontai oi aggeloi: Argos,
Sikelia, Kerkyra, Krhth (h Sikelia, bebaia, e0ewreito Ellas).
Prose}e kala th xrhsh twn orwn "Ellas", "Ellhnikon", "Ellhnes".
> pws einai dunaton na uparxei omaimia otan h ellada den uphr3e pote
> apomonwmenh apo katakthtes; otan autoi oi katakthtes gonimopoihsan,
> pantreythkan,
Blepe parakatw.
> paidomazw3an,
Den blepw me poion tropo apirreazei thn ellhnikh omoaimia to paidwmazwma.
> metoikhsan, alwsan kai alwnisan th gewgrafikh perioxh ths elladas na
> mhn exoun eisxwrhsei ta gonidia tous mesa sto upostrwma twn arxaiwn
> gonidiwn?
Pws ginetai oi Boylgaroi na mhn exoyn Moggolika xarakthristika shmera,
parolo poy oi Boylgaroi htan Moggoloi epidromeis;
Mallon prepei na labeis ypopsh soy:
a) Ton ari0mo twn gamiadwn katakthtwn.
b) Ta koinwnika h0h sthn Ellada.
An synexizeis na exeis apories, rwta toys an0rwpologoys kai toys biologoys.
Den eimai eidikos. Egw }erw mono oti to tragoydi "Fragkosyrianh" deixnei
ka0ara oti oi Fragkoi sth Syro afhsan kapoia gonidia. Den }erw omws kanena
tragoydi opws "Moggolo0essalonikia", "Slabosoyliwtissa", "Ostrogot0opolitissa",
klp.
Esy }ereis;
A, oso gia ta Arbanitika kai Slabika toponymia, ta perissotera ap' ayta
yio0eth0hkan epeidh ta paidomazwmata ginotan kyriws eis baros twn Ellhnwn.
> as katalh3oume, omws, prwta sto an o hrodotos ennoouse to idio e8nos me auto
> pou ennnooume shmera,
Blepe thn askhsh gia to spiti parapanw, ka0ws kai to mhnyma "to Ellhnikon".
> kai meta as paroume enan enan tous eisboleis na doume poso mas brwmisan h oxi.
Den ti0etai 0ema an mas "brwmisan". To tragoydi "Fragkosyrianh" moy aresei,
opws kai oi Fragkosyrianes. Den yposthrizw ayta poy yposthrizw ypokinoymenos
apo ratsismo, opws esy. Apla lew ayto poy blepw.
Dhladh afoy blepw oti oi kampyles ths Afrodiths ths Myloy einai idies me tis
ellhnikes kampyles kai oxi me tis norbhgikes, prepei swnei kai kala na pisteyw
oti "}ena gonidia exoun eisxwrhsei mesa sto upostrwma twn arxaiwn gonidiwn"
gia na mh me poyn ratsisth; Ti blakeies einai aytes;
> h prosonumia "ellhnika" einai metagenesteros xarakthrismos karra mou, apo
> istorikous kai melethtes twn katopinwn xronwn, gia xarhn perigrafikhs
> eukolias
Na dyo "metagenesteroi istorikoi kai melethtes twn katopinwn xronwn":
Hrodotos, Istoriai 9.106.3:
Pros tayta Peloponnhsiwn men toisi en teleï eoysi edokee twn mhdisantwn
e0newn twn Ellhnikwn ta empolaia e}anasthsantas doynai thn xwrhn Iwsi
enoikhsai.
8oykydidhs, Istoria 7.58.3:
Kai Ellhnika men e0nh twn en Sikeliai tosade, Dwrihs te kai oi aytonomoi
pantes, }ynemaxoyn.
> Oso de mas les an o orismos ellhnikou e8nous kata thn arxaiothta isoutai me
> ton shmerino orismo, de mporeis na pairneis th le3h kai na th xrhsimopoieis
> kata pws 8es xwris na dikaiologeis to giati.
Eipame:
Blepe thn askhsh gia to spiti parapanw, ka0ws kai to mhnyma "to Ellhnikon".
> kanei kruo,kairos gia duo,
> bre karra mou,
> ante bre pasa mou.
Katarxas edw den kanei kryo.
Epeita, pisteyeis oti mono otan kanei kryo gamoyme; Katalaba...
P K
Petros Petropoulos
> Gia thn istoria, telika ta kataferan, parolo poy kaneis ap' osoys zhthsan
>boh0eia den esteile (Argos, Sikelia, Kerkyra, Krhth).
Giati ? Mnpws epeidn dev ais0avovtav tnv Ellnvikotnta pou pasxizeis va tous
apodwseis ?
>> > Den blepw me poion tropo apirreazei thn ellhnikh omoaimia to paidwmazwma.
>>
>> thn araiwnei,
>
> Na omws poy yparxoyme akoma.
Oxi omws me agva Ellnvika govidia...ti krima gia seva pou poly pi0avov va
eisai ``tourkosporos'' !
> Stis koinwnies twn perasmenwn aiwnwn den ginontan eykola dektoi }enoi.
Oi koivwvies twv perasmevwv aiwvwv eixav brei tnv lusn. Snmera tnv lusn tnv
leme ``biasmos'' kai, dustnxws, dev exei leipsei.
Petros
Charalampos Labrakakis
> Askhsh gia to spiti:
>
> Giati o e0nikos ymnos toy Ellhnikoy kratoys leei "kai san prwta
andreiwmenh";
> Ti shmainei kai poy anaferetai to "kai san prwta";
>
Apo pou ki ws pou o E0nikos Ymnos mporei na 0ewrh0ei epixeirima kai ws apodei3h
twn
idewn sou;
To poihma pantws milaei gia 'leu0eria ki oxi gia e0nos
Twra bebaia, esu to ermhneueis pali opws goustareis, ws sunh0ws. Ti allo 0a
akousoume.
Babis
Athanassios Protopapas
>Den kserw ti lene oi anti-episthapotetoioi, alla 0a parathrousa oti h
>"alh0eia" den einai idiaitera xrhsimh ennoia. Ama h 0ewria ki h
>me0odologia ths douleuoun sthn praksh, e, leme (mazi me ton Bitgkensta.in)
>oti h 0ewria alh0hs esti. Me to ti sumpiptei kai me to ti den sumpiptei h
>0ewria einai praktika adiaforo.
1. H aln9eia dev eivai evvoia, eivai n aln9eia (n A-ln9eia pou elege kai
kapoia yuxn). Av dev tn briskeis xrnsimn dev exeis rolo ws epistnmwv
kai kalutera va paraitn9eis apo to pavepistnmio sou kai va pas va
kaveis tipota mpizves n' alles mparoufes. `H estw va giveis mnxavikos
va efarmozeis tn gvwsn pou n epistnmn parngage kai va avaptu3eis
texvologia (asxeto me tnv epistnmovikn 9ewria) kai va mnv avakateuesai
se evvoies opws n "aln9eia" pou de briskeis xrnsimes. (Kai av exeis
megales amfibolies gia tn xrnsn tns aln9eias mporeis va akolou9nseis
tn sumbouln tou Sokal kai va pndn3eis apo to mpalkovi tou va eleg3eis
av n barutnta eivai aln9ivn n' oxi.)
2. Ama n 9ewria kai n me9odologia tns douleuouv stnv pra3n (p.x. klasikn
mnxavikn pou toso sou aresei) tote xrnsimopoiouvtai stnv efarmogn tns
gvwsns gia tnv avaptu3n tns texvologias pou legame parapavw alla dev
apotelouv pedia epistnmovikns ereuvas. Av dev exeis tipota va apavtnseis
se auto kalo 9a ntav va payeis va xrnsimopoieis to "epixeirnma" peri
praktikns otav milas gia 9ewries kai me9odologies.
>To zhthma einai oti stis sugxrones koinwnies h episthmonikh gnwsh einai h
>koinwnika apodekth kai legitimated. Oxi mono auto, alla h episthmonikh
>gnwsh einai praktika aparaithth gia thn ka0hmerinh mas zwh (thleoraseis,
>autokinhta, mpompes, kompiouters, ...). Me thn ekseidikeush omws kai thn
>poluplokothta ths episthmonikhs gnwshs, h gnwsh panw sthn opoia sthrizetai
>h ka0hmerinh mas zwh den einai prosbasimh se olous (basika se kanenan).
>Auth h katastash dhmiourgei kamposa problhmata, me tous eidikous na einai
>aparaithtoi gia to opoio problhma parousiazetai. Auto den einai zhthma
>mono gia ton la.iko Karra, alla kai gia ton megalontaba, o opoios prepei
>na zhthsei ta fwta twn eidikwn (kai na antimetwpisei ta sumferonta twn
>eidikwn sthn diadikasia auth) gia ta diafora problhmata.
Nomizw oti zeis stn zwvn tou lukofwtos. Egw pou douleuw se etaireia kai
to paizw epistnmwv se bebaiwvw oti kaveis de me 9ewrei aparaitnto :-) ektos
apo tous allous epistnmoves. Oi upoloipoi xabaledes (marketivgk, pwlnseis,
dnmosies sxeseis, kai loipoi) eivai sxedov pepeismevoi oti to tmnma ereuvas
tns etaireias eivai kati meta3u knfnva kai ermatos kai aporouv giati va
mas plnrwvouv va ftiaxvoume vea proiovta otav mporouv va exouv eva mnxaviko
ki evav pwlntn va katebazouv idees, va tis ftiaxvouv, kai va tis poulave.
Kai de milame gia agrammatous twra. Gia kave mia gura stn geitovia sou
va deis poso kaigetai o kosmakns gia tnv epistnmovikn apoyn---edw re bazouv
plai plai tn 9ewria tns e3eli3ns me tn dnmiourgia tou av9rwpou apo to 0eo
ki esu mou les oti n koivwvia strefetai stov eidiko gia va fwtistei;
>H proswpikh mou stash twra. 0ewrw oti o rolos ths episthmhs sthn sugxronh
>koinwnia exei polla dusaresta apotelesmata, kuriws logw ths or0ologistikhs
>paradwshs ths episthmhs (auto den einai kainourgio insight, tope o Nitse
>prin 100-tosa xronia, kai apauton ksekinhsan ki oles oi sugxrones
>kritikes). To problhma nomizw oti einai ideologiko -- oi episthmes exoun
>koinh IDEOLOGIA, oxi me0odo, Soulh -- kai einai h ideologia, h
>or0ologistikh ideologia pou dhmiourgei koinwnika problhmata. H
>episthmonistikh propaganda (bl px Popper) parousiazei thn koinh ideologia
>san koinh me0odologia, alla bebaia se kontinh analush to fantasma ths
>koinhs episthmonikhs me0odou dialuetai (bl epomenh epistolh pros Soulh).
>Ta dusaresta apotelesmata ths or0ologistikhs ideologias taxoune 0iksei
>arketoi. Na anaferw px thn grafeiokratikopoihsh ths koinwnias (mesa
>kai apo thn episthmonikh gnwsh) -- o fobos tou Weber autos, 'h thn
>ideologikh dikaiologhsh tou deskilling tou ergatikou dunamikou mesa apo
>thn efarmogh episthmonikwn diadikasiwn paragwghs-- toxoune koitaksei o
>Braverman kai o Noble (dinw emfash sto ideologiko, ka0oti h episthmh einai
>apla ena kainourgio ergaleio gia ntabatziliki. Ntabatziliki uphrxe kai
>prin thn anaptuksh ths episthmhs).
Na kai oi mparoufologies pou legame. Oi epistnmes ektos apo koivn ideologia
(tnv or9ologistikn) exouv kai koivn me9odo gia tnv egkrisn tou ti pervaei ws
epistnmovikn gvwsn kai ti oxi. Ta grafeiokratika kai loipa de blepw giati
eivai xeirotera apo tn sklabia tns biomnxavikns epavastasns n' tis grammes
suvarmolognsns autokivntwv (n' mnpws oi teleutaies eivai "epistnmovikes";)
Gia fwtise mas ki allo, ti akribws eipav oi Braverman kai Noble giati dev
tous exw akousei tous kurious (se poio magazi tragoudave;) Kai pws akribws
suvdeetai n epistnmn me "ta apotelesmata tns or9ologistikns ideologias" stnv
koivwvia; Kati sav "povaei xeri, koyei kefali" mnpws;
>To 0ema einai oti h episthmh, h paragwgh gnwshs genikotera, einai politikh
>diadikasia. Einai shmantiko loipon na ksedialunoume ta ideologika
>fantasmata (tou or0ologismou) gia na asxolh0oume amesa me thn politikh
>diadikasia.
H paragwgn gvwsns eivai epistnmovikn diadikasia kai n politikn tns epistnmovikns
praktikns eivai koivwviologiko kai oxi epistnmologiko zntnma. Otav exoume
problnma me tous epistnmoves n' tnv efarmogn tns epistnmovikns gvwsns koitame
gia lusn stous epistnmoves n' stnv efarmogn tns epistnmovikns gvwsns, oxi
stn me9odo paragwgns tns epistnmovikns gvwsns. Na to pw pio apla n' to
piaveis twra;
0avasns
-allou-
Athanassios Protopapas
>Oi episthmonikES me0odOI aforoun paragwgh gnwshs. Den ufistatai MIA
>episthmonikh me0odos. Exoun malliasei ta daxtula mou na stelnw ta
>stoixeia gia ta mpalamoutia tou Neutwna, tou Millikan, tou Galilaiou, kai
>allwn arxierewn ths episthmhs. Ti me0odo xrhsimopoiousane autoi?
De blepw kata poso allagn tou "epistnmovikH me9odOS" se "epistnmovikES
me9odOI" se bon9aei stn sa9rn outws n' allws epixeirnmatologia sou. Opote
mpaivw stov peirasmo va arxisw va xrnsimopoiw tov pln9uvtiko gia va dw pou
9a to pas. Par'ola auta uparxei epistnmovikn me9odos kai suvoyizetai stnv
e3agwgn 9ewrias apo tis paratnrnseis, tn logikn efarmogn tns 9ewrias stnv
paragwgn probleyewv gia sugkekrimeves peiramatikes suv9nkes, kai stnv peira-
matikn epibebaiwsn twv probleyewv. Auto kavouv oloi oi epistnmoves se olous
tous kladous kai makropro9esma exoume eggunmevn proseggisn tns pragmatikotntas
me movn proupo9esn tn dnmiourgikotnta stnv paragwgn 9ewriwv. Ta upoloipa
taktopoiouvtai automatws mesa apo tis diadikasies epavalnyns, proektasns,
kai epaln9eusns.
Dev katalabaivw giati n uperbolikn dnmiourgikotnta kapoiwv stnv kataskeun
9ewriwv (kai ellipns sustnmatikotnta stnv probleyn kai epaln9eusn) prepei
va snmaivei oti dev uparxei epistnmovikn me9odos, kai polu perissotero giati
suvepagetai pln9wra avti mias me9odou. Oi straties twv snmerivwv postdoc
pou bgazouv tn suvtriptikn pleioynfia twv a3iologwv (alla oxi epavastatikwv)
epistnmovikwv dnmosieusewv me tn sustnmatikn (alla ellipws dnmiourgikn)
douleia tous dnladn ti deixvouv; Gia e3ngnse mou kai meva tou ftwxou pou
blepw tnv sullogikn efarmogn tns epistnmovikns me9odou stnv avaptu3n kai
proodo tns 9ewrntikns mas perigrafns tns fusns.
>Mpla-mpla-mpla... Olo les oti h me0odos einai MIA alla den mas les POIA
>einai. Loipon, gia na mhn kunhgame o enas thn oura tou allou: ekshghse
>oso pio ka0ara mporeis poia einai auth h me0odos kai meta, ei dunaton,
>steile mas ki ena paradeigmataki gia to pws nomizeis oti douleuei sthn
>praksh. Hint: ta mpalamoutia twn arxierewn 0aprepe na baloun psullous st'
>autia sou oti kati den paei kala kai xreiazetai na kopseis polles gwnies
>mpaklaba gia na enarmoniseis 0ewria-me0odo-pragmatikothta. Alla na se
>afhsw na anaptux0eis ston keno xwro... Paikse tis kaltses sou...
Ase tis kaltses mou nsuxes 9a pa9eis asfu3ia. Sou eipa parapavw poia eivai
ta stoixeia tns epistnmovikns me9odou: paratnrnsn-9ewria-probleyn-epaln9eusn.
Auto kavei snmera o perissoteros kosmos, autoi pou blepw egw toulaxistov.
Exoume kapoies paratnrnseis, skeftomaste ti mporei va brisketai apo pisw,
sxediazoume eva movtelo pou problepei alles paratnrnseis etsi wste va mporoume
va kavoume to peirama pou va tis epaln9euei n' oxi, kai kavoume to peirama.
Aparaitnta stoixeia eivai n logikn stnv kataskeun kai efarmogn tns 9ewrias
kai stnv ermnveia tou apotelesmatos, ka9ws kai n swstn xrnsn tns statistikns.
>Mpourdes. An htane etsi, giati exoume episthmonikes diamaxes kai
>diafwnies? Kai giati oi diamaxes den lunontai en genei me th xrhsh
>"xalinagwghmenhs" epixeirhmatologias (pali ton ksexases ton Aristotelh
>sou) kai "austhrhs" efarmoghs kanonwn (otan hsoun mikros h0eles na gineis
>astunomikos mhpws?)?
Exoume diamaxes kai diafwvies gia to poia 9ewria e3ngei kalutera tis paratn-
rnseis. Kai luvovtai otav oi 9ewries mporouv va odngnsouv se diaforetikes
probleyeis pou va eivai peiramatika epaln9eusimes. Alliws trwme tsampa
ta moustakia mas ki o ka9evas efarmozei ta gvwsta 3urafakia opws goustarei.
Alla edw milame gia epistnmovikn diamaxn, oxi gia tis politikavtzes pou
apofasizouv ti 9a efarmostei stnv ekpaideusn n' ti 9a xrnmatodotn9ei apo
to vautiko. Mnpws avaferomaste se diaforetika zntnmata;
>Ante na se ksanafhsw na paikseis me tis kaltses sou: ti apotelei kat' ese
>"xalinagwghmenh" epixeirhmatologia kai ti "austhrh" efarmogh kanonwn?
>Proswpika ta blepw san rhtorikous xarakthrismous. Ama uparxoune diafwnies
>sthn praksh, oi xarakthrismoi sou einai axrhstoi.
Gia pes mou mia periptwsn pou uparxouv "diafwvies stnv pra3n" evw 9ewrntika
de 9a eprepei. Parakalw n periptwsn va afora diamaxn epistnmovikns fusews
(9ewrntikn n' me9odologikn) kai oxi texvologias n' xrnmatodotnsns.
>O Eccles, pou 0ewrouse eauton Popperiko, alla etuxe o an0rwpos nanai
>peiramatikos neurofusiologos, egrapse sugkekrimena oti oi apopseis tou
>Popper htane kapws "rigid" kai ektos topou kai xronou anaforika me thn
>episthmonikh praktikh. To problhma tou Popper, opws kai to diko sou,
>einai oti egrafe gia to pws nomize oti EPREPE na paragetai h gnwsh, asxeta
>me to kata poso auto einai dunaton sthn praksh (eks ou kai to kraksimo apo
>ton Bitgkensta.in kai argotera kai apo ton Lakatos, sto "Proofs and
>Refutations" -- o Paulos apla xorepse kai tragoudhse sthn pista pou
>ftiaksane oi alloi, giauto kai ta grafta tou exoune perissotero ton
>xarakthra satiras). Me liga logia, o Popper eixe ka'lo, kai malista
>megalo.
Avte pali. Ma dev kavoume koivwviologia tns epistnmns bre xruse mou,
epistnmologia kavoume. Poses fores 9a to poume; H epistnmovikn me9odos
orizei ti eivai auto pou 9a apodextoume ws gvwsn, oxi ti kavei o ka9e
Mntsos. (Av kai ev gevei o ka9e Mntsos proagei tnv epistnmn akolou9wvtas
tn me9odo gia tnv paragwgn tns gvwsns.) To problnma tou Popper dev ntav
pws va krataei to maxairi o epistnmwv otav kobei to karpouzi, alla to pws
va 3exwrizoume (estw, e3'orismou) mia epistnmovikn 9ewria apo mia mn epi-
stnmovikn. Olo to zori tou ntav sto "demarcation" tns epistnmns apo tn
metafusikn. Kai kateln3e oti epistnmovikn eivai mia 9ewria pou odngei se
probleyeis pou va mporouv va aporrif9ouv peiramatika. Avti9eta, mn epistn-
movikn eivai mia 9ewria pou leei oti "ntav 9elnma 0eou" n' oti gia ola
ftaei me tov eva n' tov allo tropo to "uposuveidnto" sou. Avti9eta me
tis probleyeis sou kai sumfwva me tis epitages tou Popper n yuxavalusn snmera
de xairei megalns ektimnsns stnv yuxologikn ereuva (mn mperdeuteis twra
me tnv klivikn praktikn---akribws auto eivai to zntnma, oti evw douleuei
opws douleuei stnv pra3n de 9ewreitai sobarn epistnmovikn 9ewria).
Mia kai n9eles paradeigma dnladn.
>Apla exoune diaforetikous politikous prosanatolismous apo sena. O
>Xrhstaras bebaia to leei ka0ara, o Feidias ki o Panagiwths einai apla
>krupto-fasistes. Gouwt els iz nhou?
To problnma mou eivai mikrotero me to oti eivai krupto-fasistes (problnma
tous) kai megalutero me to oti prospa9ouv va stnri3ouv ta sumperasmata tous
se dn9ev epistnmovikes "9ewries". Exouv ka9e dikaiwma va pisteuouv o,ti
skata goustarouv kai va eivai oso fasistes goustarouv (arkei va mn mou
mpaivouv stn mutn) kai to av tous sumpa9w egw n' av sumfwvw mazi tous eivai
deutereuov. Ekeivo pou dev tous avagvwrizw to dikaiwma va exouv eivai va
xrnsimopoiouv epistnmovikn glwssa kai va sfeterizovtai to epistnmoviko (mou
kai sou) kuros gia va proagouv tis avonsies tous. Eav 9elouv va milave
gia biologia kai istoria va avoi3ouv ta straba tous va ma9ouv pws givovtai
n biologia kai n istoria kai va avtikatastnsouv ta logika tous almata kai
tis alles nli9iotntes me tn logikn suvoxn tns epistnmovikns epixeirnmatologias.
>Splouts! (peftei h salamandra apo to xeri) Afou einai etsi, tote den 0a
>prepei na sou einai duskolo na mas dwseis ena paradeigmataki gia to pws
>douleuei autos o formalismos sthn praksh. Gia na kerdizoume xrono: protou
>dwseis to paradeigma, pare upopsh sou tis gestalt eikones kai ti mas lene
>gia th sxesh metaksu antilhpshs kai pragmatikothtas (basika oti den einai
>monoshmanth). Kalh tuxh!
De 9a sou kavw tn xarn giati eisai etoimos va glistrnseis kai va peseis
me ta moutra stis laspes, kai 9a ntav krima va se diakoyw. Gia pes mas
loipov ti akribws 9es va peis gia tis 9ewries (oxi eikoves) gestalt kai
tn "sxesn meta3u avtilnyns kai pragmatikotntas" gia va gelasoume kai ligaki.
Na sou dei3w kai merika ap'ta xartia mou va mn vomizeis oti paizeis tzampa:
xaos (vtetermivistikn mn-probleyimotnta) kai plaisio (context-dependence).
Na dw poios 9a xreiastei tuxn sto 9ewrntiko 3emperdema.
>Oxi bebaia. Alla na ta peis ta pramata me to onoma tous: Karra, den
>sumfwnw me auta pou les giati odhgoun se fasismo. 'H, apla, na krakseis:
>"Eisai fasistas re!". Alla arxizeis kai tsampounas gia me0odologia pou
>den exei akolou0h0ei kai trixes katsares. Siga mhn noiazetai o fasistas
>gia me0odous.
O Karras kai o ka9e malakas mporei va eivai oso fasistas goustarei. To va
bgaivoume kai va krazoume fasista ka0e eva me tou opoiou tis apoyeis de
sumfwvoume eivai palia "dnmokratikn" (my ass) praktikn tnv opoia apex9avomai
kai dev prokeitai va arxisw va tnv efarmozw twra. (Plaka dev exei pou twra
to'xouv arxisei kai oi "de3ioi" to kolpo auto; Kai oi Amerikavoi leve
kommouvistn opoiov leei kati pou dev tous aresei---polu xrnsimo!)
De sumfwvw me auta pou leei giati odngouv se fasismo. Alla auto dev eivai
epixeirnma gia va stamatnsei va ta leei. To oti eivai blakeies apo pragmati-
stikn apoyn omws eivai gia meva epixeirnma. Kai estiazw ekei tnv prosoxn mou.
Allwste de blepw giati o fasistas 9a viastei perissotero gia to av egw diafw-
vnsw (n' tov kra3w "fasista") ap'o,ti gia to av katadei3w sto filo9eamov koivo
oti ta upoti9emeva "epixeirnmata" dev eivai para prokalummata tns fasistikns
vootropias pou ta parngage. Esu toulaxistov se auto 9e prepei va sumfwvnseis.
0avasns
-allou-
Christos Papadas
dw ti mou apavtnse o 40akos gia ta Orfika kai tis loipes malakies sas.
Stnv arxn epesa pavw sta grapta Ekeivns kai me xara diapistwsa pws
telika ta bouvtou piavouv topo kai arxisav ndn ta prwta sumptwmata
(paramilnta).
Meta omws......e, meta eida tov Prwtomalaka va dnlwvei tsaxpivns kai
eidikos se 0emata epistnmovikns me0odologias!!!! Eutuxws pou
katnl0es ki' esu epi tns gns va luseis ta aluta kai va dwseis apavtnsn
sta pio sobara me0odologika problnmata pou akoma basavizouv tn
filosofia tns epistnmns, w Megale Souln!!!!
Kapoios gvwstos filosofos apofasise va balei kapote titlous sta diafora
kefalaia gvwstou bibliou tou, opws "Giati eimai wraios", "Giati eimai
e3upvos", klp
(Quiz: Poios filosofos kai poio biblio re nli0ioi???)
Mnpws nr0e n wra va kaveis ki' esu to idio re Souln me to e mail sou???
Na, kati sav "giati eimai o pio malakas kafetzns", n "Giati gevvn0nka
Soulns".
E re kati ywvia....
Xrnstaras o Amalnkitns
ug: in - o Koriv0iakos me perimevei se mia bdomada- mode... ;-))
Yiannis Koutalos
> 1. H aln9eia dev eivai evvoia, eivai n aln9eia (n A-ln9eia pou elege kai
> kapoia yuxn). Av dev tn briskeis xrnsimn dev exeis rolo ws epistnmwv
> kai kalutera va paraitn9eis apo to pavepistnmio sou
Xoxoxoxo... (Karra me lene kai den toxa parei xampari?) Epeidh esu
autoxris0hkes monomelhs epitroph ths perifrourhshs ths
episthmonistikhs ideologias 0a mas peis kai me ti 0a
asxolh0oume?
> kai va pas va
> kaveis tipota mpizves n' alles mparoufes. `H estw va giveis mnxavikos
> va efarmozeis tn gvwsn pou n epistnmn parngage kai va avaptu3eis
> texvologia (asxeto me tnv epistnmovikn 9ewria) kai va mnv avakateuesai
> se evvoies opws n "aln9eia" pou de briskeis xrnsimes.
Etoimazesai na kaneis aithsh gia Pa'pas 'h mou fainetai? Blepw oti oi
apogonoi tou Galilaiou exoune parei apo thn au0adeia tou. Bre oust, pou
0es na s' afhsw na kaneis thn propaganda sou hsuxos! (mpat for e smwl fh,
A.i ma.it konsinter it)
> (Kai av exeis
> megales amfibolies gia tn xrnsn tns aln9eias mporeis va akolou9nseis
> tn sumbouln tou Sokal kai va pndn3eis apo to mpalkovi tou va eleg3eis
> av n barutnta eivai aln9ivn n' oxi.)
Splats! (peftei ki allh salamandra apo to allo xeri). Eisai apoti
fainetai toso blakas, oso ki o Sokal. H baruthta einai h ermhneia tou oti
ginesai xalkomania ama peseis apo to mpalkoni, ki oxi anapoda. Pragmatika
apogonoi tou Galilaiou (pou htane apogonos tou Platwna). Mplekete tis
poutses me tis bourtses. Tis idees pou ekshgoun thn empeiria tis kanete
Idees kai pate na ginete kai Pa'pes.
> 2. Ama n 9ewria kai n me9odologia tns douleuouv stnv pra3n (p.x. klasikn
> mnxavikn pou toso sou aresei) tote xrnsimopoiouvtai stnv efarmogn tns
> gvwsns gia tnv avaptu3n tns texvologias pou legame parapavw alla dev
> apotelouv pedia epistnmovikns ereuvas. Av dev exeis tipota va apavtnseis
> se auto kalo 9a ntav va payeis va xrnsimopoieis to "epixeirnma" peri
> praktikns otav milas gia 9ewries kai me9odologies.
Bres prwta episthmologika krithria pou na sou epitrepoun ton diaxwrismo
episthmhs-texnologias kai meta skarfalwneis ston ambwna na me
katakeraunwseis. Eid' alliws, episthmh kai texnologia apla apoteloun
tomeis diaforetikwn praktikwn, diaforetikwn gnwsewn, kai ta mona krithria
pou leitourgoun einai ta pragmatistika. Eisai tsitsidos re! Akoma den to
phres xampari?
> Nomizw oti zeis stn zwvn tou lukofwtos. Egw pou douleuw se etaireia kai
> to paizw epistnmwv se bebaiwvw oti kaveis de me 9ewrei aparaitnto :-) ektos
> apo tous allous epistnmoves. Oi upoloipoi xabaledes (marketivgk, pwlnseis,
> dnmosies sxeseis, kai loipoi) eivai sxedov pepeismevoi oti to tmnma ereuvas
> tns etaireias eivai kati meta3u knfnva kai ermatos kai aporouv giati va
> mas plnrwvouv va ftiaxvoume vea proiovta otav mporouv va exouv eva mnxaviko
> ki evav pwlntn va katebazouv idees, va tis ftiaxvouv, kai va tis poulave.
> Kai de milame gia agrammatous twra.
Kala, Dilbert diabazw ki egw. Pantws den ekplhssomai, ka0oti o ka0e
grafeiokraths profanws 0ewrei eauton ton pleon aparaithto (an den
painepseis to spiti sou, 0a pesei na se plakwsei).
[xrats -- 0a ta ksanapiasoume ta kommena se allh eukairia]
giannhs
Christos Papadas
>>diafora kefalaia gvwstou bibliou tou, opws "Giati eimai wraios", "Giati
>>eimai e3upvos", klp
>> (Quiz: Poios filosofos kai poio biblio re nli0ioi???)
>O Nitses fasista tou glukou nerou (kai nomizw tape afou sufiliasthke)
Aplws trela0nke re. Les va tov kollnse tipota n guvaika tou Bagkver ;-)
gia partn tns opoias n xoufta tou makaritn Freiderikou douleue sfevtova...
>To biblio htane h "Genealogia ths H0ikhs" an 0umamai swsta.
La0aki, la0aki!!! (xairekakos pou eimai e?? :-))) To Ecce Homo ntave
o titlos tou ev logw bibliou me tous titlous pou avefera ("Ide o av0rwpos",
o Ellnvikos titlos). Kala pas, exeis elpides. Morfwsou ligo akoma kai 0a
kerdiseis to sebasmo kai tou Megalou Souln tns listas.
0a mou peis bebaia otav milas me to Soulako, eivai duvato va mnv paei
to mualoudaki sou stis empveuseis tou....Sopevxaouer????
>Ti ginetai, kerdizw thn eksoria se erhmonhsi ama er0eis sta pramata?
Pou va sta lew! To kelli me ta pio omorfa povtikia soukleisa paliopoustn.
>giannhs
Kitsos
Yiannis Koutalos
> De blepw kata poso allagn tou "epistnmovikH me9odOS" se "epistnmovikES
> me9odOI" se bon9aei stn sa9rn outws n' allws epixeirnmatologia sou. Opote
> mpaivw stov peirasmo va arxisw va xrnsimopoiw tov pln9uvtiko gia va dw pou
> 9a to pas. Par'ola auta uparxei epistnmovikn me9odos kai suvoyizetai stnv
> e3agwgn 9ewrias apo tis paratnrnseis, tn logikn efarmogn tns 9ewrias stnv
> paragwgn probleyewv gia sugkekrimeves peiramatikes suv9nkes, kai stnv peira-
> matikn epibebaiwsn twv probleyewv. Auto kavouv oloi oi epistnmoves se olous
> tous kladous kai makropro9esma exoume eggunmevn proseggisn tns pragmatikotntas
> me movn proupo9esn tn dnmiourgikotnta stnv paragwgn 9ewriwv. Ta upoloipa
> taktopoiouvtai automatws mesa apo tis diadikasies epavalnyns, proektasns,
> kai epaln9eusns.
Ti les bre fantasioplhkte? Poia mu0istorhmata episthmonikhs oneirwkshs
diabazeis kai ta les auta?
Ante na milhsoume gia me0odo:
> Par'ola auta uparxei epistnmovikn me9odos kai suvoyizetai stnv
> e3agwgn 9ewrias apo tis paratnrnseis,
Efesh #1: Xreiazetai na epilekseis tis parathrhseis gia tis opoies 0a
ftiakseis 0ewria. Auto einai KAI episthmologiko problhma ka0oti h
parathrhsh den einai aneksarthth ths me0odou pou xrhsimopoieis (auto einai
ka0hmerinh episthmonikh empeiria -- to kanw "KALA" to peirama?). Auto to
zhthma htane gnwsto PRIN apo ton Galilaio, kai h epilush tou htane me to
na dw0ei h au0entia ston Pa'pa (mpmprrrrrr). Kata ta alla, oi
parathrhseis pou metragane PRIN ton Galilaio htane autes ths KOINHS
empeirias (megale Aristotelh). O Galilaios, san au0adhs pou htane, h0ele
na parei thn au0entia o idios. E, tou balane piperi sto stoma ki hremhse.
Se anti0esh me ton Galilaio, o Pascal htane fobera prosektikos sto ti
elege kai prospa0ouse na sthriksei tis parathrhseis tou me anafores sthn
KOINH empeiria 'h toulaxiston polu konta s' authn. O Descartes eixe
antistoixo problhma eks ou kai oi oneirwkseis "Peri me0odou".
Efesh #2: H 0ewria pou bgazeis apo tis parathrhseis den einai monoshmanta
orismenh (episthmologiko problhma kai touto). H trexousa episthmonistikh
propaganda xrhsimopoiei ksurafakia ka0e loghs gai na mporesei na to
koukoulwsei. Alla to ksurafi mporeis na to xrhsimopoihseis AFOU exeis to
arxiko plaisio ths 0ewrias, opws kai thn AKRIBEIA ths 0ewrias (oi fusikoi
px milane apo mia taksh mege0ous mexri dekadika gia akribeeis, analoga me
to pws tous sumferei. Oi biologoi milane gia poiotikh sumfwnia (astous
autous), kai trexa gureue). To 0ema ths AKRIBEIAS ths 0ewrias
parousiazetai kai sto zhthma ths epanalhpshs twn parathrhsewn gia
"epibebaiwsh" 'h "aporripsh".
To 0ema ths AKRIBEIAS den lunetai statistika, ka0oti h statistikh den
apotelei ksurafaki (ama aukshsw ton ari0mo twn metablhtwn, ta ekshgw
OULA). Diaforoi dustuxismenoi kai mh prospa0hsan na anaptuksoun krithria
gai to pote prepei na bazoume epipleon metablhtes kai pote oxi, alla auta
apoteloun 0emata goustou 0a elega.
H Efesh #1 einai h basikh gia to epixeirhma enantia sthn uparksh
ths episthmonikhs me0odou opws thn xarakthrizei o 0anashs. To
episthmologiko problhma pou parousiazetai den lunetai analutika, giauto
kai koitame PWS lunetai sthn praksh. E, mpaste skuloi aleste.
> tn logikn efarmogn tns 9ewrias
> stnv paragwgn probleyewv gia sugkekrimeves peiramatikes suv9nkes
Efesh #3: H 0ewria den perilambanei ANALUTIKA, kai den mporei na
perilabei, thn PRAKTIKH peiramatikh me0odologia. Etsi, otan kaneis
problepseis exeis to problhma oti prepei na pareis upopsh sou thn
peiramatikh me0odologia pou 0a xrhsimopoihseis. Auto einai epishs
episthmologiko problhma, to opoio deixnei oti o Popper elege malakies
kai megales malista, ka0ws o Duhem toxe hdh ekshghsei to zhthma apo to
1906 (htane omws idealisths kai eixe polu bad press) -- o Duhem milage gia
"auxiliary hypotheses" mias upo0eshs 'h 0ewrias. To apotelesma einai
oti etsi kai sou bgei h problepsh exei kalws (douleuei to prama, to
opoio kai endiaferei), alla etsi kai de sou bgei den ksereis ti ftaiei,
kai DEN MPOREIS KAI NA KSEREIS ti ftaiei (ftaiei h 0ewria 'h h me0odos,
kai me tis poluplokes me0odous pou xrhsimopoioume shmera, trexa gureue).
Etsi apla o tuxwn episthmwn prospa0ei na pallantzarei 0ewria kai me0odo
mexri na tou bgei. Thn episthmologia thn grafei ekei pou thn egrapse kai
o Millikan, kai ekei pou 0a thn egrafes ki esu an stamatouses na diabazeis
an0ugieina biblia. Epi th eukairia, ekei einai pou ginontai oi diamaxes,
sto pws 0a pallantzaristei 0ewria kai me0odos (pet 0ewries kai agaphmenes
me0odoi, grants, fhmes, pro.ionta gia thn karafla kai gia thn stush -- ma
fusika kai den exei parenergeies h viagra, 'h siga mhn prokalei karkino to
tsigaro), kai fusika einai mpeste skuloi aleste ka0oti h episthmologia ta
ftunei.
> kai stnv peiramatikn epibebaiwsn twv probleyewv.
Ton Popper sou ton ksexases blepw. Pali kala, auto shmainei oti exeis
elpides. Sumfwnw sto oti ama kati douleuei to kratame, alla den
uparxei me0odos pou na sou leei pws 0a bgaleis kati na douleuei. H
douleia sthn paragwgh gnwshs (kai eidika kai sthn paragwgh episthmonikhs
gnwshs) einai sthn enarmonish 0ewrias kai me0odou, opws to periegrapses
parapanw. Auto den mporei na ginei formalistika, eneka twn efesewn #1 kai
#3. Ka0oti h enarmonish einai praktiko zhthma, den exei episthmologikes
'h kalutera ontologikes proektaseis. Exei mono pragmatistikes. Douleuei?
Exei kalws. Einai alh0ino an douleuei? Xou gkibs e fak afou douleuei!
Den douleuei? Back to the drawing board.
> Aparaitnta stoixeia eivai n logikn stnv kataskeun kai efarmogn tns 9ewrias
> kai stnv ermnveia tou apotelesmatos, ka9ws kai n swstn xrnsn tns statistikns.
Thn logikh sou leei h efesh #3 ti na thn kaneis. Sta ergasthria, epi
ka0hmerinhs basews, peiramata pou en genei douleuoun, pote-pote ta
ftunoun. Kserei o peiramatizomenos giati? Rwta kanenan na sou pei.
Nomizeis oti psaxnoun na broune to giati? rx/! Apla ta ksanakanoun mexri
na ksanadoulepsoun.
> Exoume diamaxes kai diafwvies gia to poia 9ewria e3ngei kalutera tis paratn-
> rnseis. Kai luvovtai otav oi 9ewries mporouv va odngnsouv se diaforetikes
> probleyeis pou va eivai peiramatika epaln9eusimes.
Arloumpes se 0olo Popperiko fonto. Blepe efeseis #1 kai #3. Kai istorika
taxoume dei pws doulepsane. O Popper xrhsimopoiei ta peiramata tou
Eddington gia thn apoklish tou fwtos gurw apo ton hlio san paradeigma gia
to pws apofasizoume metaksu duo 0ewriwn (neutwneia kai genikh
sxetikothta). Agnoia ths agnoias tou mpalamoutiou tou mpalamoutista
Eddington (auto pou les esu empneush kai diais0hsh). O Eddington eixe
treis takseis dedomenwn: auta pou sumfwnousane me thn neutwneia, auta pou
sumfwnousane me thn genikh kai auta (ta "texnika" pio kala) pou peftane
sth mesh. Epi th eukairia, auto einai sunh0ismeno fainomeno se
peiramatikh diadikasia, prin ton enarmonismo 0ewrias-me0odou. O
trismegistos Eddington ebale mono auta pou sumfwnousane me thn genikh ki
etsi to ma0ainoume kai sto sxoleio. Megale Popper!
{Paren0esh: Basilakh, trufere mou episthmonisth, xaou ntou giou ntou? --
ta lene auta sto "Golem")
Na sou pw ki ena mustiko twra: Oi straties twn postdocs kanoune swrhdon
peiramata ka0hmerina, apo ta opoia dialegoune auta pou stekoune mazi se
mia istorioula dhmosieushmh (to market pull tou tomea). Ta upoloipa ta
trwei h marmagka, xwris logikh kai episthmologia.
> Alla edw milame gia epistnmovikn diamaxn, oxi gia tis politikavtzes pou
> apofasizouv ti 9a efarmostei stnv ekpaideusn n' ti 9a xrnmatodotn9ei apo
> to vautiko. Mnpws avaferomaste se diaforetika zntnmata;
Apousia episthmologikwn krithriwn, h diamaxh einai politikh. Auto
fainetai kai sthn praksh. Oi episthmonikes diamaxes einai apo th fush
tous politikes.
> Gia pes mou mia periptwsn pou uparxouv "diafwvies stnv pra3n" evw 9ewrntika
> de 9a eprepei. Parakalw n periptwsn va afora diamaxn epistnmovikns fusews
> (9ewrntikn n' me9odologikn) kai oxi texvologias n' xrnmatodotnsns.
To 0ewrhtiko problhma einai diko sou pou nomizeis oti uparxoun
episthmologika krithria. Eseis oi episthmonistes gia na koukoulwsete ta
pramata lete oti, e, pote-pote, uparxoune kai orismenoi pou den paizoun
swsta. An0rwpoi einai oi episthmones, ti na kanoume. Mpourdes! Den
uparxoun episthmologika krithria gia thn enarmonish 0ewrias-me0odou,
giauto kai h baboura kai o xabales otan uparxoun diafwnies.
> Avte pali. Ma dev kavoume koivwviologia tns epistnmns bre xruse mou,
> epistnmologia kavoume. Poses fores 9a to poume; H epistnmovikn me9odos
> orizei ti eivai auto pou 9a apodextoume ws gvwsn, oxi ti kavei o ka9e
> Mntsos.
H episthmologia omws ta ftunei (prama pou to kseroune oloi oi peiramatikoi
-- oi 0ewrhtikoi einai autoi pou zoune ston kosmo tous), giauto kai
upoxrewtika katalhgeis sthn koinwniologia. Gouehk ap ent smel de roouzhs.
> Olo to zori tou ntav sto "demarcation" tns epistnmns apo tn
> metafusikn. Kai kateln3e oti epistnmovikn eivai mia 9ewria pou odngei se
> probleyeis pou va mporouv va aporrif9ouv peiramatika.
Popperikes propagandistikes mpourdes (des parapanw). Giauto kai exei
pesei to gelio ths arkoudas me ta grafta tou Popper.
[xrouts]
giannhs