Qewries kai peiramata
Yiannis Koutalos
episthmonistikh fanela, fainetai xontra apoprosanatolismenos de. Klwtsaei
thn mpalla opws tourxetai kai ton blepw ikano (ti ikano, etoimo) gia
autogkol.
Pelagodromei loipon o Xartzoulakhs sta ba0eia nera tou episthmonismou:
> H meqodologia den exei kammia sxesh me to peirama. Sto bebaiwnw.
Dhladh, w TetraMegiste Xartzoulakh, to PWS 0a kaneis to peirama den exei
sxesh, kammia ma thn panagia', me to peirama. Afou mou to bebaiwneis omws
katse na to shmeiwsw...
> Mporw na paraskeuasw ena farmako me eikosi diaforetikous tropous.
Gkoup! Kai mporeis na apotuxeis sthn paraskeuh tou me 200,000
diaforetikous tropous.
> Oi desmoi sto moria telika einai oi idioi.
Logia, logia, logia...
> >Exeis 0ewria kai psaxneis gia parathrhseis sxetikes me dauth.
>
> An qeleis na ginesai sebastos se suzhthseis episthmoligikes kai filosofias
> ths episthmhs prepei na prosexeis ti les genika.
Kala, 0a sou ekshghsw parakatw karagkiozh ths sumforas.
> Kaneis den yaxnei gia parathshrhseis "sxetikes" me mia qewria.
> Sxediazei aplws peiramata poy epibebaiwnoun h aporriptoun thn qewria.
!!!! Auto prepei na to ksanagrapsoume giati einai antaksio enos
Epimenidh:
Protash A: > Kaneis den yaxnei gia parathshrhseis "sxetikes" me mia
qewria.
Protash B: > Sxediazei aplws peiramata poy epibebaiwnoun h aporriptoun thn
qewria.
Dhladh kat' ese PentaMegiste Xartzoulakh (o Prwtopapas htane apla
TrisMegistos) h Protash B leei kati diaforetiko apo thn protash A.
Xartzoulakh eisai o pateras tou Or0ologismou...
> Re koutale, auto pou den antilambanesai einai oti oi perissoteroi skeptomenoi
> episthmones exoun epignwsh twn periorismwn mias "QEWRIAS" alla parallhla
> autos o tropos skeyhs einai kai o monadikos tropos pou exei anakalyyei
> h anqrwpothta gia na taksinomhsei kai na paragei SYSTHMATIKA GNWSH.
Mpa? Kai h Alxhmeia den htane susthmatikos tropos paragwghs gnwshs? H
giogka den einai? To Tsi-Gkongk? Xartzoulakh, apo pote h agnoia sou gia
diaforetikous tropous paragwghs gnwshs apotelei krithrio gia thn
"monadikothta" ths episthmhs? Prwtopapa nthar, to or0ologistiko
stratopedo exei pollous karagkiozhdes blepw...
Ante kai sto pshto:
> >To episthmologiko problhma brisketai sto oti exeis DUO pramata pou
> >upeiserxontai se mia parathrhsh: 0ewria kai me0odologia. Dwsmou
> >opoiadhpote 0ewria kai 0a sou dwsw kai parathrhseis kai peiramata pou den
> >sumfwnoun me dauth.
>
> 1) Kbantikh Qewria
> 2) Qermodynamikh
> 3) Qewria tou Xhmikou Desmou
> 4) Hlektrodynamikh
> 5) Qewria Ths Sxetikothtas
>
> Gia na se dw re koutale ti parathrhsh antifaskei tis parapanw qewries.
> Se parakalw an exeis parathrhseis poy antifaskoun to Noumero 3 pes to
> se proswpiko giati ws xhmikos qelw na kerdisw ena brabeio Nombel.
1) Kbantomhxanikh: Diathrhsh ths sunolikhs stroformhs fwtoniwn sthn
antidrash hlektroniou-pozitroniou (gnwsto kai ws Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen
paradokso -- pou katanthsame, na fernoume ta paradeigmata pou ftuname...
alla me tous paliatsous pou mpleksame...)
5) Sxetikothta: Peiramata tou Miller (ca. 1925) pou deiksane oti h
taxuthta tou fwtos eksartatai apo thn taxuthta ths phghs. O Miller phre
to brabeio ths Amerikanikhs Fusikhs Etaireias gia dauta.
Ta parapanw einai gera peiramatika dedomena, dekta kai apo thn
koinothta twn fusikwn (Prwtopapa, ws ki h agaph sou o Mpwntrigiar exei
grapsei gia thn eirwnikh strathgikh tou fwtoniou mpah de goueh)
2)-3)-4) Den kserw ta istorika kala opote 0a bgalw ena eukolo
antiparadeigma outws wste na katalabete thn koinotupia autwn pou lew kai
thn or0ologistikh tuflwsh twn dikwn sas 0esewn.
Loipon, exw udrogono kai oksugono ta opoia sumfwna me thn 0ewria tou
xhmikou desmou prepei na mou dwsoune neraki otan ta anakatepsw. Ta
anakateuw loipon, kai pairnw oxi neraki, alla ta rx/ tou Prwtopapa.
Sumfwna me to alan0asto episthmologiko krithrio ths sunepeias to
apotelesma shmainei oti h 0ewria tou xhmikou desmou pasxei. Nespa?
> Koutale, prepei na katalabeis oti h meqodologia den einai o kentrikos aksonas
> ths episthmhs. Ti thn anafereis olh thn wra?
Wste to PWS proseggizoume thn pragmatikothta, o tropos me ton opoio
kanoume ta pragmata na douleuoun den einai o kentrikos aksonas ths
episthmhs. Alla me or0ologistes den exw mpleksei? Fusika kai h douleia
pou kanei ta pramata na douleuoun den tous endiaferei. Auto pou tous
endiaferei einai o aeras o kopanistos twn 0ewriwn.
> >Fusika kai me epiase, kai opws pame 0a pesw me pureto. H proseggish ths
> >pragmatikothtas ginetai panta mesa apo koinwnikopolitikes diadikasies.
>
> H megalytergh arloumba poy exw diabasei pote sthn zwh mou.
> Dhladh re Koutale giati exw mperdeutei.
> Dwse mas se parakalw ena orismo:
> a) Ti einai pragmatikothta
Etumologia mpas kai anoiksoune ta or0ologistika sou matia:
pragmatikothta apo to pragma apo to prattw, htoi auto panw sto opoio
droume, to antikeimeno ths an0rwpinhs drashs.
> b) Koinikopolitikh Diadikasia
Diadikasia, protses pou leei ki o Petropoulos, pou perilambanei tis
draseis pollwn an0rwpwn. H pragmatikothta, to antikeimeno ths an0rwpinhs
drashs, plhsiazetai panta mesa apo tetoies diadikasies, ka0oti h an0rwpinh
drash diamorfwnetai koinwnika (ouloi megalwnoume kai ginomaste an0rwpoi
emsa se koinwnies kai mesa apo koinwnikes allhlepidraseis). An eixate
koukoutsi mualo kai to bazate na doulepsei, 0a blepate oti ta parapanw
einai koinotupies. Giauto kai o or0ologismos einai mia papara kai mish.
giannhs
Athanassios Protopapas
>episthmonistikh fanela, fainetai xontra apoprosanatolismenos de. Klwtsaei
>thn mpalla opws tourxetai kai ton blepw ikano (ti ikano, etoimo) gia
>autogkol.
Prosexe ti les kai pws to les giati ap'o,ti eida stn dikia sou omada
paizei o sixamevos :-))))
Na upogrammisw to tromero:
>> Oi desmoi sto moria telika einai oi idioi.
>
>Logia, logia, logia...
Yeutika ntav ta filia sou, yeutikn ki n agkalia sou
ola ntav yemata yemata yemataaaaaaa
Ti les bre apodomntike xatznabatn pou 9a amfisbntneis kai tnv tautotnta
twv xnmikwv desmwv; Hmartov Kurie ti allo 9a doume stis o9oves mas!
>Mpa? Kai h Alxhmeia den htane susthmatikos tropos paragwghs gnwshs? H
>giogka den einai? To Tsi-Gkongk? Xartzoulakh, apo pote h agnoia sou gia
>diaforetikous tropous paragwghs gnwshs apotelei krithrio gia thn
>"monadikothta" ths episthmhs? Prwtopapa nthar, to or0ologistiko
>stratopedo exei pollous karagkiozhdes blepw...
Ola ta parapavw eivai/ntav sustnmatikoi tropoi paragwgns gvwsns. H alxnmeia
exase to mats me tnv pragmatikotnta evw n giogka kai to tsi kratave gera kai
av n gvwsn pou exouv paragagei eivai suvepns me tnv pragmatikotnta tote 9a
mporouv va evswmatw9ouv stnv epistnmn arga n' grngora (mallov arga, av kai
to tsi eivai tns modas stous new age iatrikous kuklous ap'o,ti akouw kai kati
tupoi trexouve stnv Kiva gia metrnseis kai yaxvouve va brouve tous mesnmbrivous
opou kulaei n evergeia---kala krasia!)
>1) Kbantomhxanikh: Diathrhsh ths sunolikhs stroformhs fwtoniwn sthn
>antidrash hlektroniou-pozitroniou (gnwsto kai ws Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen
>paradokso -- pou katanthsame, na fernoume ta paradeigmata pou ftuname...
>alla me tous paliatsous pou mpleksame...)
>
>5) Sxetikothta: Peiramata tou Miller (ca. 1925) pou deiksane oti h
>taxuthta tou fwtos eksartatai apo thn taxuthta ths phghs. O Miller phre
>to brabeio ths Amerikanikhs Fusikhs Etaireias gia dauta.
>
>Ta parapanw einai gera peiramatika dedomena, dekta kai apo thn
>koinothta twn fusikwn (Prwtopapa, ws ki h agaph sou o Mpwntrigiar exei
>grapsei gia thn eirwnikh strathgikh tou fwtoniou mpah de goueh)
Koutale n fusikn mou eivai skouriasmevn alla av 9umamai kala kai oi duo
periptwseis eivai evswmatwmeves stn sugxrovn fusikn 9ewria xwris asuvepeies.
Dior9wse me av kavw la9os alla exw tnv evtupwsn oti klebeis me stop-kare
ekei pou se boleuei. N'est ce pas? Oso gia tov karagkiozn to Mpwvtrigiar
Koutale dev perimeva tipota kalutero apo seva. Malista sou suvistw kai
Giavvara pou prospa9ei va eivai e3isou adiaperastos (kai kevos periexomevou)
alla me e9vikopatriwtikous prosavatolismous. Na apaggeleis kai kammia
paragrafo tnv 25 Martiou va koimouvtai ta paidia sou. Ti va grayei re
3eftilismeve o Mpwvtrigiar gia to fwtovio, pou ta diabase, sto Romavtso;
Aei sixtir bgaivei o ka9e malakas Gallos dnlwvei filosofos kai exei kai
apoyn gia to fwtovio. (Kai ti apoyn dnladn, suvvefiasmevn Kuriakn)
>Loipon, exw udrogono kai oksugono ta opoia sumfwna me thn 0ewria tou
>xhmikou desmou prepei na mou dwsoune neraki otan ta anakatepsw. Ta
>anakateuw loipon, kai pairnw oxi neraki, alla ta rx/ tou Prwtopapa.
>Sumfwna me to alan0asto episthmologiko krithrio ths sunepeias to
>apotelesma shmainei oti h 0ewria tou xhmikou desmou pasxei. Nespa?
Autn tn blakeia Koutale tnv exeis 3avapei kai eixes parei ta rx/ tou Prwtopapa
kai tote av 9umamai kala. Ki as mn summeteixa stn suzntnsn ekeivn tn fora
(sta'xa steilei me to vou mou, pws leme n agapn mou pavta mazi sou). H 9ewria
ektos apo tn sustasn sou leei kai tis suv9nkes tns avtidrasns. Ama esu
dev 3ereis va diabazeis de sou ftaiei n 9ewria tipota. Kai av dev to pisteueis
oti to vero eivai H2O kave kai kammia nlektrolusn sto spiti ta apogeumata
avti va auvavizesai me Gallous filosofous.
Kai pou'sai, peta tn salamavdra kai pare kaveva skulaki giati blepw sumptwmata
evtovns suvais9nmatikns sternsns. Aln9eia, to skeftnkes pote poia koivwviko-
politikn diadikasia se odngnse va pareis amfibio gia to spiti; Avti gia kati
xaritwmevo kai malliaro as poume opws olos o kosmos; O yuxiatros sou ti leei
ep'autou;
0avasns
-allou-
Basilhs Hartzoulakis
>
>Re Prwtopapa, eutounos o Xartzoulakhs sthn omada sou paizei? Foraei men
>episthmonistikh fanela, fainetai xontra apoprosanatolismenos de. Klwtsaei
>thn mpalla opws tourxetai kai ton blepw ikano (ti ikano, etoimo) gia
>autogkol.
Koutale an mporeis na suzhthseis ena sobaro qema xwris proswpika sxolia
kalws, alliws qa meineis ki esy sthn mnhm ths listas ws enas akoma asxetos
poy gia na kaluyei thn agnoia tou (h thn ametrhth ksipasia tou na nomizei oti
mporei me pente blakwdeis protaseis na amfisbhthsei to dianohtiko dhmiourghma
genewn kai genewn) xrhsimopoiei synexws proswpika sxolia kai xarakthrismous
pros atoma poy den gnwrizei.
An mporeis na akolouqhseis auton ton aplo kanona, paikse mpala.
>
>Pelagodromei loipon o Xartzoulakhs sta ba0eia nera tou episthmonismou:
>
>> H meqodologia den exei kammia sxesh me to peirama. Sto bebaiwnw.
>
>Dhladh, w TetraMegiste Xartzoulakh, to PWS 0a kaneis to peirama den exei
>sxesh, kammia ma thn panagia', me to peirama. Afou mou to bebaiwneis omws
>katse na to shmeiwsw...
>
>
Kat' arxhn to oti ekferw gnemh den me kanei megisto. Egw eimai autos poy aplws
ekfrazei thn koinws apodekth apoyh - metaksy twn episthmonwn - peri tou ti
einai
qewria kai peirama. Esy to paizeis megistos poy diatypwneis thn airetikh
apoyh, kai se sena peftei to baros ths susthmatikhs apodeikshs kai diatypwshs.
>> Mporw na paraskeuasw ena farmako me eikosi diaforetikous tropous.
>
>Gkoup! Kai mporeis na apotuxeis sthn paraskeuh tou me 200,000
>diaforetikous tropous.
>
Ayto akribws einai h ousia. Kaqe peirama poy apotyxainei mou deixnei ta oria
ths qewrias mou kai anoigei kainourgious lewforous. Ayto poy den katalabainoun
kammia fora osoi asxolountai apokleistika me thn fusikh einai oti h episthmh
einai dhmiourgikh drasthriothta. To peirama poy den douleuei den einai
adieksodo alla faros gia to TI mporei na douleyei. Ayto fainetai kaqara
sthn xhmeia.
oi xhmikoi molis anakaluyan ton xhmiko desmo den kaqisan sta ayga tous
alla arxisan na synqetoun ekatommyria kainourgia moria.
Den douleuei kapoio peirama, qa douleyei to alla kai parallhla mas deinei
plhrofories peri tou antikeimenou.
>
>> Oi desmoi sto moria telika einai oi idioi.
>
>Logia, logia, logia...
>
>
"........Ki opoios den katalabainei
den kserei pou pata kai poy phgainei.."
Sabbopoulos
>> >Exeis 0ewria kai psaxneis gia parathrhseis sxetikes me dauth.
>>
>> An qeleis na ginesai sebastos se suzhthseis episthmoligikes kai filosofias
>> ths episthmhs prepei na prosexeis ti les genika.
>
>Kala, 0a sou ekshghsw parakatw karagkiozh ths sumforas.
>
>
Eyxaristw gia ta kosmhtika epiqeta !! Eisai toso kalos kai eygenikos!!
>> Kaneis den yaxnei gia parathshrhseis "sxetikes" me mia qewria.
>> Sxediazei aplws peiramata poy epibebaiwnoun h aporriptoun thn qewria.
>
>
>> Re koutale, auto pou den antilambanesai einai oti oi perissoteroi
skeptomenoi
>> episthmones exoun epignwsh twn periorismwn mias "QEWRIAS" alla parallhla
>> autos o tropos skeyhs einai kai o monadikos tropos pou exei anakalyyei
>> h anqrwpothta gia na taksinomhsei kai na paragei SYSTHMATIKA GNWSH.
>
>Mpa? Kai h Alxhmeia den htane susthmatikos tropos paragwghs gnwshs? H
>giogka den einai? To Tsi-Gkongk? Xartzoulakh, apo pote h agnoia sou gia
>diaforetikous tropous paragwghs gnwshs apotelei krithrio gia thn
>"monadikothta" ths episthmhs? Prwtopapa nthar, to or0ologistiko
>stratopedo exei pollous karagkiozhdes blepw...
>
>
Blepeis ???? Ypoqeteis oti exw agnoia peri Yogkas ktl. Laqos. Akribws epeidh
ta kserw poly kalytera apo oti mporei na fantasteis mesa sto pio trelo sou
oneiro
soy lew oti anafereis symperilambanomenhs kai ths alxhmeias DEN HTAN
mhxanismoi paragwghs gnwshs alla DROMOI MYSTIKISMOU.
O skopos den htan h gnwsh alla h teleiopoihsh ths proswpikothtas me ton
enan h ton allo tropo. Mhn mperdeueis loipon tis poutses me tis bourtses.
Allo o mystikismos kai allo h episthmh.
>Ante kai sto pshto:
>
>> >To episthmologiko problhma brisketai sto oti exeis DUO pramata pou
>> >upeiserxontai se mia parathrhsh: 0ewria kai me0odologia. Dwsmou
>> >opoiadhpote 0ewria kai 0a sou dwsw kai parathrhseis kai peiramata pou den
>> >sumfwnoun me dauth.
>>
>> 1) Kbantikh Qewria
>> 2) Qermodynamikh
>> 3) Qewria tou Xhmikou Desmou
>> 4) Hlektrodynamikh
>> 5) Qewria Ths Sxetikothtas
>>
>> Gia na se dw re koutale ti parathrhsh antifaskei tis parapanw qewries.
>> Se parakalw an exeis parathrhseis poy antifaskoun to Noumero 3 pes to
>> se proswpiko giati ws xhmikos qelw na kerdisw ena brabeio Nombel.
>
>1) Kbantomhxanikh: Diathrhsh ths sunolikhs stroformhs fwtoniwn sthn
>antidrash hlektroniou-pozitroniou (gnwsto kai ws Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen
>paradokso -- pou katanthsame, na fernoume ta paradeigmata pou ftuname...
>alla me tous paliatsous pou mpleksame...)
>
Twra ta piasame ta lefta mas. Zhthsa apo ton Koutalo na mou prosferei
ANTIFASH kai mou prosfere PARADOKSO. Epeidh eimai sigouros
oti den mporeis na katalabeis thn diafora ekshgw.
ANTIFASH einai otan h qewria problepei kati ALLO apo ayto poy parexei to
peirama. H KBANTIKH QEWRIA DEN EXEI SYNANTHSEI AKOMA
PEIRAMATA ANTIFATIKA. SE PROKALW.
DWSE mou Journal, kai reference kai qa paradextw dhmosia sthn LISTA
oti eimai BLAKAS.
PARADOKSO einai otan h qewria problepei kati poy antifaskei thn koinh logikh.
Gia to A-P-R paradokso qa to koitaksw sygkekrimena kai qa apanthsw,
alla mallon ekei eisai akribhs, einai paradokso, dhladh h kbantikh qewria
to problepei etsi alla epeidh antifaskei thn koinh logikh to leme paradokso.
To idio isxuei kai me thn periptwsh px. fwtoniou kyma kai swmatidio ktl...
>5) Sxetikothta: Peiramata tou Miller (ca. 1925) pou deiksane oti h
>taxuthta tou fwtos eksartatai apo thn taxuthta ths phghs. O Miller phre
>to brabeio ths Amerikanikhs Fusikhs Etaireias gia dauta.
>
>Ta parapanw einai gera peiramatika dedomena, dekta kai apo thn
>koinothta twn fusikwn (Prwtopapa, ws ki h agaph sou o Mpwntrigiar exei
>grapsei gia thn eirwnikh strathgikh tou fwtoniou mpah de goueh)
Ki ayto qa to yaksw. Ws xhmikos den exw amesh prosbash alla
qa to brw. An to peirama tou Miller deixnei ayto AKRIBWS poy les
tote olh h qewria ths sxetikothtas einai laqos, mia kai ena apo ta dyo basika
postulates einai oti h taxythta tou fwtos einai ANEKSARTHTH apo
tous parathrhtes kai tis alles kinhseis. Epomenws dwse mas reference
poy to diabases gia na to elegskoume an kai qa to brw kai monos mou.
>
>2)-3)-4) Den kserw ta istorika kala opote 0a bgalw ena eukolo
>antiparadeigma outws wste na katalabete thn koinotupia autwn pou lew kai
>thn or0ologistikh tuflwsh twn dikwn sas 0esewn.
>
>Loipon, exw udrogono kai oksugono ta opoia sumfwna me thn 0ewria tou
>xhmikou desmou prepei na mou dwsoune neraki otan ta anakatepsw. Ta
>anakateuw loipon, kai pairnw oxi neraki, alla ta rx/ tou Prwtopapa.
>Sumfwna me to alan0asto episthmologiko krithrio ths sunepeias to
>apotelesma shmainei oti h 0ewria tou xhmikou desmou pasxei. Nespa?
>
>
Mprabo!!!. Twra oloi kseroume oti ta arxidia tou Prwtopapa
apotelountai apo H kai O!!!
>> Koutale, prepei na katalabeis oti h meqodologia den einai o kentrikos
aksonas
>> ths episthmhs. Ti thn anafereis olh thn wra?
>
>Wste to PWS proseggizoume thn pragmatikothta, o tropos me ton opoio
>kanoume ta pragmata na douleuoun den einai o kentrikos aksonas ths
>episthmhs. Alla me or0ologistes den exw mpleksei? Fusika kai h douleia
>pou kanei ta pramata na douleuoun den tous endiaferei. Auto pou tous
>endiaferei einai o aeras o kopanistos twn 0ewriwn.
>
>
Einai fanero oti endiaferesai pio poly na bazeis tampeles apo to
na sundialegesai. An to qema ths syzhthshs einai pws proseggizei
h episthmh thn pragamtikothta, ayto ginetai anamfisbhthta kai poly
petyxhmena mesa apo tis qewries. An to qema mas einai pia proseggish
ths pragmatikothta einai kalyterh - ths episthmhs h kapoia allh - tote
prepei na
arxisoume allh syzhthsh. Esy exeis mpleksei authn thn stigmh ta dyo metaksy
tous. To oti yperaspizomai ton episthmiko tropo skeyeis den shmainei
aytomata oti ton qewrw ton kalytero dynato.
Mporei aplws na ton uioqetw dioti pisteuw oti einai pio apodotikos
stis sygkekrimenes synqhkes, kai anaforika me ta problhmata poy exw na
lysw. Gia na taisw ta 6dis tou planhth px den qa xrhsimopoihsw Yoga:-))
>> >Fusika kai me epiase, kai opws pame 0a pesw me pureto. H proseggish ths
>> >pragmatikothtas ginetai panta mesa apo koinwnikopolitikes diadikasies.
>>
>> H megalytergh arloumba poy exw diabasei pote sthn zwh mou.
>> Dhladh re Koutale giati exw mperdeutei.
>> Dwse mas se parakalw ena orismo:
>> a) Ti einai pragmatikothta
>
>Etumologia mpas kai anoiksoune ta or0ologistika sou matia:
>
>pragmatikothta apo to pragma apo to prattw, htoi auto panw sto opoio
>droume, to antikeimeno ths an0rwpinhs drashs.
>
me ton orismo sou afhneis na ennohqei oti h PRAGMATIKOTHTA
den yparxei aneksarthta apo thn anqrwpinh drash.
Katalaba kala??
>
>> b) Koinikopolitikh Diadikasia
>
>Diadikasia, protses pou leei ki o Petropoulos, pou perilambanei tis
>draseis pollwn an0rwpwn. H pragmatikothta, to antikeimeno ths an0rwpinhs
>drashs, plhsiazetai panta mesa apo tetoies diadikasies, ka0oti h an0rwpinh
>drash diamorfwnetai koinwnika (ouloi megalwnoume kai ginomaste an0rwpoi
>emsa se koinwnies kai mesa apo koinwnikes allhlepidraseis). An eixate
>koukoutsi mualo kai to bazate na doulepsei, 0a blepate oti ta parapanw
>einai koinotupies. Giauto kai o or0ologismos einai mia papara kai mish.
>
Kia mia kai aneferes Yoga klp. Qa xrhsimopoihsw ena xristianiko paradeigma
gia na dw ti ennoeis.
Otan o Xristos apomonwqhke sthn erhmo gia ertqei se epafh me ton Patera,
kai epomenws na proseggisei thn Aiwnia kai Analloiwth Pragmatikothta
ekane KOINWNIKO POLITIKO protses?!?!?!?
H otan o monaxos Zen meta apo 20 xronia eksantlhtikhs prospaqeis eswterika
petyxainei thn apolyth tautish tou me to periballon gyrw tou, ayto einai
koinwniko
protses????
Telos Pantwn. Pame allou.
>
>giannhs
>
>
>
Xairetismata
Basilhs Highlander
PS Logw fortou ergasias, as eisai ypomonetikos mazi mou.
Athanassios Protopapas
klp., alla eisai ofsaivt. Auto pou dev katalabes mesa s'oln tnv Koutaleia
mparoufologia eivai oti av kriveis me epistnmovika dedomeva tote ola eivai
omorfos kosmos n9ikos aggelika plasmevos alla to 9ema eivai apo pou erxovtai
auta ta kritnria. Otav leme oti n giogka eivai sustnma gvwsns de leme gia
tnv praktikn tou xrnsn alla gia to oti kavei kapoies basikes paradoxes gia
va dwsei kateu9uvseis, va e3ngnsei tov kosmo(*). Profavws avti gia to dromo
tou or9ologismou akolou9ei to dromo tou mustikismou alla auto dev tnv kavei
ligotero kosmo9ewria. Kata tn gvwmn mou tnv kavei ligotero *kaln* kosmo9ewria,
alla oxi ligotero sustnma domnsns tns gvwsns. Oso gia ta dnmiourgika klp.
fobamai oti mas exeis balei autogkol kai oute pou to eides (gamw to feleki
tou Petrakou). Av n epistnmn eivai to pws zwgrafizouv sta ergastnria tous
oi epistnmoves tote eimaste toso or9ologistes oso kai oi giogki (kai toso
karagkiozndes oso o Koutalos) kai n "me9odos" pou upostnrizoume oti exoume
gia ta mpaza. Av bebaia esu dev upostnrizeis oti exoume me9odo tote dev
exeis katalabei me poiov sumfwveis :-)
Loipov twra bale tn favela isia kai snmadeue priv klwtsnseis :-)))
0avasns
-allou-
(*) Mnv arxisoume avousia fasaria gia tn giogka, giati to ti snmaivei "kosmos"
kai tn xrnzei e3ngnsns kai pws auto voeitai (ws pveumatikn n' or9ologistikn
proseggisn n' ws evwsn a-la virbava) eivai kati pou to ka9e sustnma orizei
opws goustarei kai av eisai ap'e3w dev uparxouv kritnria epilogns `n sugkrisns.
Basilhs Hartzoulakis
Egrafe o Qanashs:
>Re su Xartz. soru dnladn pou epembaivw, exeis kai oles tis kales pro9eseis
>klp., alla eisai ofsaivt. Auto pou dev katalabes mesa s'oln tnv Koutaleia
>mparoufologia eivai oti av kriveis me epistnmovika dedomeva tote ola eivai
>omorfos kosmos n9ikos aggelika plasmevos alla to 9ema eivai apo pou erxovtai
>auta ta kritnria.
Egw den anaferqhka se tipota apo ta parapanw. Metfrazeis auta poy egraya
symfwna me tis malakies poy apanta se emena o Koutalos.
Oi episthmh ej orismou den parexei kammia hqikh kateyqynsh h krithria.
Ekei einai h dynamh kai h adynamia ths synama.
H episthmh einai apla ena ergaleio poy to akonizoume synexws me mia
sygkekrimenh meqodologia.
Mphka sthn syzhthsh dioti o Koutalos epikentrwnei thn kritikh tou sto mono
shmeio ths episthmhs poy pragmatika apodidei karpous kai einai paragwgiko
- thn allhledrash QEWRIAS kai PEIRAMATOS.
Otav leme oti n giogka eivai sustnma gvwsns de leme gia
>tnv praktikn tou xrnsn alla gia to oti kavei kapoies basikes paradoxes gia
>va dwsei kateu9uvseis, va e3ngnsei tov kosmo(*). Profavws avti gia to dromo
>tou or9ologismou akolou9ei to dromo tou mustikismou alla auto dev tnv kavei
>ligotero kosmo9ewria.
OXI. Qanash parablepeis mia basikh arxh olwn twn parapanw systhmatwn,
poy h dytikopoihsh tous mas kanei syxna na thn ksexname.
Einai h arxh tou proswpikoy dromou. Opws kai ston Xristianismo kaqe anqrwpos
mesa apo kapoies arxes prepei na brei ton DIKO tou proswpiko dromo.
Aytomata auto kaqista thn meqodo mh epanaliyhmh kai epomenws einai adynaton
na melethqei systhmatika.
Fysika kai den thn kanei ligotero h perissotero kosmoqewria alla ayto apo poy
hrqe. Egw den to egraya poyqena.
Kata tn gvwmn mou tnv kavei ligotero *kaln* kosmo9ewria,
>alla oxi ligotero sustnma domnsns tns gvwsns. Oso gia ta dnmiourgika klp.
>fobamai oti mas exeis balei autogkol kai oute pou to eides (gamw to feleki
>tou Petrakou). Av n epistnmn eivai to pws zwgrafizouv sta ergastnria tous
>oi epistnmoves tote eimaste toso or9ologistes oso kai oi giogki (kai toso
>karagkiozndes oso o Koutalos) kai n "me9odos" pou upostnrizoume oti exoume
>gia ta mpaza. Av bebaia esu dev upostnrizeis oti exoume me9odo tote dev
>exeis katalabei me poiov sumfwveis :-)
>
Poly malakia exei pesei mou fainetai. Egw den egraya poyqena gia kales h kakes
kosmoqewries. Ante diabaste ti egraya kai apanthste. Mhn mou prhzetai ta
arx...
me mail poy apantoun se pramata pou den eipa pote!!!!!!
Egraya:
Einai fanero oti endiaferesai pio poly na bazeis tampeles apo to
na sundialegesai. An to qema ths syzhthshs einai pws proseggizei
h episthmh thn pragamtikothta, ayto ginetai anamfisbhthta kai poly
petyxhmena mesa apo tis qewries. An to qema mas einai pia proseggish
ths pragmatikothta einai kalyterh - ths episthmhs h kapoia allh - tote
prepei na
arxisoume allh syzhthsh. Esy exeis mpleksei authn thn stigmh ta dyo metaksy
tous. To oti yperaspizomai ton episthmiko tropo skeyeis den shmainei
aytomata oti ton qewrw ton kalytero dynato.
Mporei aplws na ton uioqetw dioti pisteuw oti einai pio apodotikos
stis sygkekrimenes synqhkes, kai anaforika me ta problhmata poy exw na
lysw. Gia na taisw ta 6dis tou planhth px den qa xrhsimopoihsw Yoga:-))
Fainetai kaqara oti qewrw thn ep[isthmh ergaleio me orismenh skopimothta.
>Loipov twra bale tn favela isia kai snmadeue priv klwtsnseis :-)))
>
>0avasns
>-allou-
>
Den anhkw se kammia omada.
Oute mia syzhthsh den mporoume na kanoume sobara se aythn thn lista;-))
Basilhs Highlander
Yiannis Koutalos
na mhn kanoume proswpika sxolia sthn koubenta) kai sou ekshgw, ka0ws me
prokaleses, oti eisai BLAKAS:
Egrapses:
> >> H meqodologia den exei kammia sxesh me to peirama. Sto bebaiwnw.
kai otan sou ekshghsa o,ti oute ligo oute polu les oti:
> > to PWS 0a kaneis to peirama den exei
> >sxesh, kammia ma thn panagia', me to peirama.
arxises tis upekfuges:
> Egw eimai autos poy aplws
> ekfrazei thn koinws apodekth apoyh - metaksy twn episthmonwn - peri tou ti
> einai
> qewria kai peirama. Esy to paizeis megistos poy diatypwneis thn airetikh
> apoyh, kai se sena peftei to baros ths susthmatikhs apodeikshs kai diatypwshs.
Dhladh epimeneis oti h peiramatikh me0odologia den exei kammia sxesh me to
peirama kai oti auth einai h koinws apodekth apopsh malista. Ti na pw...
(Prwtopapa, auto to autogkol metraei?)
> >Gkoup! Kai mporeis na apotuxeis sthn paraskeuh tou me 200,000
> >diaforetikous tropous.
> >
>
> Ayto akribws einai h ousia. Kaqe peirama poy apotyxainei mou deixnei ta oria
> ths qewrias mou kai anoigei kainourgious lewforous. Ayto poy den katalabainoun
> kammia fora osoi asxolountai apokleistika me thn fusikh einai oti h episthmh
> einai dhmiourgikh drasthriothta. To peirama poy den douleuei den einai
> adieksodo alla faros gia to TI mporei na douleyei. Ayto fainetai kaqara
> sthn xhmeia.
> oi xhmikoi molis anakaluyan ton xhmiko desmo den kaqisan sta ayga tous
> alla arxisan na synqetoun ekatommyria kainourgia moria.
> Den douleuei kapoio peirama, qa douleyei to alla kai parallhla mas deinei
> plhrofories peri tou antikeimenou.
S' auta genika sumfwnw, einai xarakthristika ths an0rwpinhs prakshs en
genei, alla einai ektos 0ematos anaforika me thn koubenta
peri GENIKHS episthmonikhs me0odou.
> Blepeis ???? Ypoqeteis oti exw agnoia peri Yogkas ktl. Laqos. Akribws epeidh
> ta kserw poly kalytera apo oti mporei na fantasteis mesa sto pio trelo sou
> oneiro
> soy lew oti anafereis symperilambanomenhs kai ths alxhmeias DEN HTAN
> mhxanismoi paragwghs gnwshs alla DROMOI MYSTIKISMOU.
> O skopos den htan h gnwsh alla h teleiopoihsh ths proswpikothtas me ton
> enan h ton allo tropo. Mhn mperdeueis loipon tis poutses me tis bourtses.
> Allo o mystikismos kai allo h episthmh.
Dhladh h proswpikothta den teleiopoieitai mesw ths gnwshs (oxi ths
episthmonikhs bebaia)?? Ksanamana, ti na pw...
> >1) Kbantomhxanikh: Diathrhsh ths sunolikhs stroformhs fwtoniwn sthn
> >antidrash hlektroniou-pozitroniou (gnwsto kai ws Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen
> >paradokso -- pou katanthsame, na fernoume ta paradeigmata pou ftuname...
> >alla me tous paliatsous pou mpleksame...)
> >
>
> Twra ta piasame ta lefta mas. Zhthsa apo ton Koutalo na mou prosferei
> ANTIFASH kai mou prosfere PARADOKSO. Epeidh eimai sigouros
> oti den mporeis na katalabeis thn diafora ekshgw.
> ANTIFASH einai otan h qewria problepei kati ALLO apo ayto poy parexei to
> peirama. H KBANTIKH QEWRIA DEN EXEI SYNANTHSEI AKOMA
> PEIRAMATA ANTIFATIKA. SE PROKALW.
> DWSE mou Journal, kai reference kai qa paradextw dhmosia sthn LISTA
> oti eimai BLAKAS.
QED (kbont erat ntemonstratoum) ths BLAKEIAS sou Xartzoulakh. To 0ema sto
EPR einai h diathrhsh ths sunolikhs stroformhs twn fwtoniwn. Ama
perigrapseis ta fwtonia me wave functions pou den exoune proka0orismenh
stroformh exeis to problhma ths metadwshs tou shmatos me taxuthta
megaluterh auths tou fwtos outws wste ta fwtonia na kseroune ti stroformh
prepei na exoune ana pasa stigmh pou 0a thn metrhsei o Prwtopapas. To oti
sth bibliografia anaferetai san "paradokso" kai oxi san antifash posws me
endiaferei. Auto pou me endiaferei einai kata poso 0a katakurw0ei to
autogkol 'h oxi, ka0ws o Prwtopapas krathse pisinh panw sauto to shmeio.
(shmeiwsh gia Prwtopapa: gia na mhn apantw kai sto diko sou mhnuma sto
idio shmeio. To ti 0a kaneis me to EPR eksartatai apo to ti kapello
foras. Ama s' aresei h Kopegxagh ola kala, ola wraia, ta fwtonia einai me
allous parea, kai etsi sumperiferetai h fush bre paidi mou. Ama eisai
to fantasma tou Bohm pas kai psaxneis gia hidden variables. Ama eisai
Mpwntrigiar, e, gelas me ta problhmata twn fusikwn).
> PARADOKSO einai otan h qewria problepei kati poy antifaskei thn koinh logikh.
> Gia to A-P-R paradokso qa to koitaksw sygkekrimena kai qa apanthsw,
> alla mallon ekei eisai akribhs, einai paradokso, dhladh h kbantikh qewria
> to problepei etsi alla epeidh antifaskei thn koinh logikh to leme paradokso.
> To idio isxuei kai me thn periptwsh px. fwtoniou kyma kai swmatidio ktl...
Ouden sxolion...
> >5) Sxetikothta: Peiramata tou Miller (ca. 1925) pou deiksane oti h
> >taxuthta tou fwtos eksartatai apo thn taxuthta ths phghs. O Miller phre
> >to brabeio ths Amerikanikhs Fusikhs Etaireias gia dauta.
> >
> >Ta parapanw einai gera peiramatika dedomena, dekta kai apo thn
> >koinothta twn fusikwn (Prwtopapa, ws ki h agaph sou o Mpwntrigiar exei
> >grapsei gia thn eirwnikh strathgikh tou fwtoniou mpah de goueh)
>
> Ki ayto qa to yaksw. Ws xhmikos den exw amesh prosbash alla
> qa to brw. An to peirama tou Miller deixnei ayto AKRIBWS poy les
> tote olh h qewria ths sxetikothtas einai laqos, mia kai ena apo ta dyo basika
> postulates einai oti h taxythta tou fwtos einai ANEKSARTHTH apo
> tous parathrhtes kai tis alles kinhseis.
Dustuxismene!! Na sou pw dhladh kai gia ta mpalamoutia tou Labouazie' ki
esu 0a ftuseis kai th Xhmeia! Wwwww, eugenikh esu psuxh, amolunth apo ta
mpalwmata, ta ksulwmata, kai ta masaz ths episthmhs, pou hsouna toso kairo
pou se psaxname?? Wwwww, droserh aura esu, fusa panw apo ta araxniasmena
trapezia autou tou kafeneiou, dialuse tous istous tou kunismou kai xarise
thn xara stous 0amwnes...
(Prwtopapa, ksanarwtaw, sthn omada sou paizei? Oxi tipota allo, na kserw
an 0a metraw ta autogkol gia oxi)
> Epomenws dwse mas reference
> poy to diabases gia na to elegskoume an kai qa to brw kai monos mou.
To "Golem" twn Collins kai Pinch perigrafei auta ta peiramata kai
0a breis kai ta references ekei. Rikse ki ena blefaro sto "Betrayers of
the Truth", eidika sto Appendix, na ma0eis kai gia tous allous
mpalamoutistes ths episthmhs.
> Einai fanero oti endiaferesai pio poly na bazeis tampeles apo to
> na sundialegesai. An to qema ths syzhthshs einai pws proseggizei
> h episthmh thn pragamtikothta, ayto ginetai anamfisbhthta kai poly
> petyxhmena mesa apo tis qewries.
!!!! Dhladh ta kanonia douleuoune eneka ths 0ewrias ths bolhs ki oxi giati
kapoioi ta FTIAKSANE peiramatika, sthn praksh, na douleuoune. Ti allo 0'
akousw...
> An to qema mas einai pia proseggish
> ths pragmatikothta einai kalyterh - ths episthmhs h kapoia allh - tote
> prepei na
> arxisoume allh syzhthsh. Esy exeis mpleksei authn thn stigmh ta dyo metaksy
> tous. To oti yperaspizomai ton episthmiko tropo skeyeis den shmainei
> aytomata oti ton qewrw ton kalytero dynato.
Otan ksemperdepsoume me thn elleipsh GENIKHS episthmonikhs me0odou, tote
0' arxisoume na suzhtame kai gia alles dunatothtes.
> Mporei aplws na ton uioqetw dioti pisteuw oti einai pio apodotikos
> stis sygkekrimenes synqhkes, kai anaforika me ta problhmata poy exw na
> lysw. Gia na taisw ta 6dis tou planhth px den qa xrhsimopoihsw Yoga:-))
W, nai, 0a xrhsimopoihseis biomhxanikh gewrgia kai prasines
epanastaseis... (*)
> >pragmatikothta apo to pragma apo to prattw, htoi auto panw sto opoio
> >droume, to antikeimeno ths an0rwpinhs drashs.
> >
> me ton orismo sou afhneis na ennohqei oti h PRAGMATIKOTHTA
> den yparxei aneksarthta apo thn anqrwpinh drash.
> Katalaba kala??
Fusika kai h pragmatikothta uparxei aneksarthta apo mas. Alla epishs
fusika, h pragmatikothta parousiazetai se mas PANTA san to antikeimeno ths
an0rwpinhs drashs. H aneksarthth uparksh ths pragmatikothtas einai
anousia parathrhsh. To 0ema einai to PWS diamorfwnetai h pragmatikothta
mesa apo thn an0rwpinh drash.
> Kia mia kai aneferes Yoga klp. Qa xrhsimopoihsw ena xristianiko paradeigma
> gia na dw ti ennoeis.
> Otan o Xristos apomonwqhke sthn erhmo gia ertqei se epafh me ton Patera,
> kai epomenws na proseggisei thn Aiwnia kai Analloiwth Pragmatikothta
> ekane KOINWNIKO POLITIKO protses?!?!?!?
Nai.
> H otan o monaxos Zen meta apo 20 xronia eksantlhtikhs prospaqeis eswterika
> petyxainei thn apolyth tautish tou me to periballon gyrw tou, ayto einai
> koinwniko protses????
Nai.
Oloi oi an0rwpoi eimaste koinwnika zwa (diabole, se koinwnies ginane
an0rwpoi, den pesane apo ton ourano, oute o Xristos, oute o monaxos)
giannhs
(*) gia na mhn mplekesai, h biomhxanikh gewrgia doulepse gia tous ligous
kai den ta.ise kai polu kosmo. Kallista h gewrgikh paragwgh 0a mporouse
na ta.isei ton kosmo XWRIS lipasmata kai entomoktona (me sustainable
me0odous, gnwstes apo polu paliotera). Den kserw gia thn katastash twra,
ka0oti ta apotelesmata ths biomhxanikhs gewrgias sta nera kai sta edafh
einai mallon epikinduna kai pi0anon na mhn uparxoune dunatothtes gia
sustainability pleon.
UG: Petropoule, gia thn anodo twn 0ermokrasiwn eixa parei ena paper (apo
egkuro periodiko, ksereis, me referee klp) sto taxudromeio poulege oti ola
einai ena psema, ola einai mia sunomwsia enantion twn kalwn petrela.ikwn
etaireiwn. Esu ti les Afelh mou file?
Athanassios Protopapas
sou omada paizei to paidi kai va tov mazeyeis va mn mou leei meta oti
sumfwvei mazi mou. Re mpas kai eisai kammia orgavwmevn probokatsia
KoutaloPnrouvn re Xartz;
>Egw den anaferqhka se tipota apo ta parapanw. Metfrazeis auta poy egraya
>symfwna me tis malakies poy apanta se emena o Koutalos.
>Oi episthmh ej orismou den parexei kammia hqikh kateyqynsh h krithria.
Profavws alla kai asxeto toso me tnv koubevta pou eixame me tov Koutalo
oso kai me autnv pou exeis esu me tov Koutalo.
>Ekei einai h dynamh kai h adynamia ths synama.
>H episthmh einai apla ena ergaleio poy to akonizoume synexws me mia
>sygkekrimenh meqodologia.
Edw 9a se perilabei o Koutalos giati egw 9a protimousa va sumfwvw alla
me auta pou les parakatw de mou eivai duvato :-)
>Mphka sthn syzhthsh dioti o Koutalos epikentrwnei thn kritikh tou sto mono
>shmeio ths episthmhs poy pragmatika apodidei karpous kai einai paragwgiko
> - thn allhledrash QEWRIAS kai PEIRAMATOS.
O Koutalos epikevtrwvei tnv kritikn tou se auto pou eipa egw, oti dnladn
uparxei 9ewrntikn epistnmovikn me9odos me tnv opoia mporoume va ka9orisoume
ti eivai epistnmovikn gvwsn xwris koivwvikes diadikasies. Kai oti autn
n me9odos eivai mia, isxuei gia oles tis epistnmovikes drastnriotntes, kai
basei autns 3exwrizoume tnv nra apo to stari otav katakatsei o peiramatikos
kourviaxtos. O Koutalos leei oti auto de givetai stnv pra3n kai dev mporei
va givei oute 9ewrntika. Esu dev exw katalabei akribws ti les giati mia
pndas apo dw mia apo kei.
>Otav leme oti n giogka eivai sustnma gvwsns de leme gia
>>tnv praktikn tou xrnsn alla gia to oti kavei kapoies basikes paradoxes gia
>>va dwsei kateu9uvseis, va e3ngnsei tov kosmo(*). Profavws avti gia to dromo
>>tou or9ologismou akolou9ei to dromo tou mustikismou alla auto dev tnv kavei
>>ligotero kosmo9ewria.
>
>OXI. Qanash parablepeis mia basikh arxh olwn twn parapanw systhmatwn,
>poy h dytikopoihsh tous mas kanei syxna na thn ksexname.
>Einai h arxh tou proswpikoy dromou. Opws kai ston Xristianismo kaqe anqrwpos
>mesa apo kapoies arxes prepei na brei ton DIKO tou proswpiko dromo.
>Aytomata auto kaqista thn meqodo mh epanaliyhmh kai epomenws einai adynaton
>na melethqei systhmatika.
>Fysika kai den thn kanei ligotero h perissotero kosmoqewria alla ayto apo poy
>hrqe. Egw den to egraya poyqena.
Les asxeta opws suvn9ws. Katngoreis emeva gia dutikopoinsn tns 9ewrnsns
tns giogka evw sou egraya sugkekrimeva sto usterografo va mnv arxisoume autn
tn suzntnsn akribws dioti ta snmeia avaforas diaferouv rizika, ara apokleietai
va exw dutikopoinmevn 9ewrnsn. O Koutalos se rwtnse av n giogka eivai tropos
9ewrnsns tou kosmou kai apavtnses la9os oti dev eivai. Sou e3ngw oti eivai
kai mou les oti eivai mn epavalnyimo, dnladn tria poulakia ka9ovtai. Apo pote
n epavalnyimotnta eivai aretn stn giogka gia va tnv exoume ws kritnrio;
Mnpws esu eisai autos pou dutikopoiei tnv kritikn tou me kritnria tns "sustn-
matikns meletns"; H giogka kai n ka9e giogka dexetai orismeves arxes upar3ns
kai skopou kai sou parexei kai to plaisio va proseggiseis auto pou orizei ws
idaviko. Kai n epistnmn to idio kavei. Movo pou egw bazw tnv epistnmovikn
apoyn se poiotika diaforetiko skalopati evw o Koutalos ta pervaei ola stov
idio mulo. Esu akoma dev exei favei pou kliveis, mallov sumfwveis me tov
Koutalo alla dev to 3ereis.
>Poly malakia exei pesei mou fainetai. Egw den egraya poyqena gia kales h kakes
>kosmoqewries. Ante diabaste ti egraya kai apanthste. Mhn mou prhzetai ta
>arx...
>me mail poy apantoun se pramata pou den eipa pote!!!!!!
Giati esu dnladn se ti vomizeis oti apavtnses ap'auta pou eipe o Koutalos;
>Egraya:
>Einai fanero oti endiaferesai pio poly na bazeis tampeles apo to
>na sundialegesai. An to qema ths syzhthshs einai pws proseggizei
>h episthmh thn pragamtikothta, ayto ginetai anamfisbhthta kai poly
>petyxhmena mesa apo tis qewries. An to qema mas einai pia proseggish
>ths pragmatikothta einai kalyterh - ths episthmhs h kapoia allh - tote
>prepei na
>arxisoume allh syzhthsh. Esy exeis mpleksei authn thn stigmh ta dyo metaksy
>tous. To oti yperaspizomai ton episthmiko tropo skeyeis den shmainei
>aytomata oti ton qewrw ton kalytero dynato.
Ta 9emata eivai polla kai diafora, esu mporeis va sxoliaseis o,ti sou aresei
ki emeis avtistoixws sta sxolia sou. Av de sou aresei auto va mnv avakateuesai
se suzntnseis. De ftavei pou petas ta asxeta, dnlwveis sumfwvia me autov
pou diafwveis, mas tn bgaiveis kai sto telos oti dev katalabame ti suzntnsn
eixame kai nr9es va mas fwtiseis. Re dev pas va deis av erxetai n salamavdra
tou Koutalou lew gw.
>Mporei aplws na ton uioqetw dioti pisteuw oti einai pio apodotikos
>stis sygkekrimenes synqhkes, kai anaforika me ta problhmata poy exw na
>lysw. Gia na taisw ta 6dis tou planhth px den qa xrhsimopoihsw Yoga:-))
>
>Fainetai kaqara oti qewrw thn ep[isthmh ergaleio me orismenh skopimothta.
Dnladn dexesai tn basikn 9esn tou Koutalou oti n epistnmn eivai to apotelesma
tns efarmogns tns pou exei praktikn a3ia kai oti 9ewrntika n epistnmovikn gvwsn
dev exei kapoio pleovektnma evavti allwv sustnmatwv gvwsns. Suveidntopoieis
n' oxi poso kovta eisai sto va paradexteis oti n epistnmovikn gvwsn eivai
koivwviko kataskeuasma; 0es va sto masnsei o Koutalos priv to katapieis n'
9a to roufn3eis opws eivai;
>Den anhkw se kammia omada.
>Oute mia syzhthsh den mporoume na kanoume sobara se aythn thn lista;-))
Apo suzntnseis allo tipota. Ki av 3eroume kai ti leme akoma kalutera :-)))
0avasns Lowlander kai upobruxios ama laxei vaoum :-)
-allou-
>
>
>
>Basilhs Highlander
>
>
>
Lida Anestidou
sumfwna me kapoio quote, les:
" 9ewrntika n epistnmovikn gvwsn
dev exei kapoio pleovektnma evavti allwv sustnmatwv gvwsns."
giati mplexthka
>:>
Basilhs Hartzoulakis
>
>Xartzoulakh, antiparerxomai thn anti-kafeneiakh sou sumperifora (akou leei
>na mhn kanoume proswpika sxolia sthn koubenta) kai sou ekshgw, ka0ws me
>prokaleses, oti eisai BLAKAS:
Koutale, agori mou perase pote apo thn skeyh sou, prin mou apanthseis
na anhkseis ena leksiko na jestrabwqeis??? Oxi bebaia, dioti pisteueis
oti ta ksereis ola.
Egw mia kai den ta kserw ola kai prin apanthsw yaxnw, sou paraqetw tous
parakatw orismous mhpws kai deis ligo fws:
>
>Egrapses:
>
>> >> H meqodologia den exei kammia sxesh me to peirama. Sto bebaiwnw.
>
Ayto htan apo to prwto mail. Kala poy to qymhqhkes gia na sto ejhghsw.
METHODOLOGY: a body of Methods
METHOD: 1. A SPECIAL FORM OF PROCEDURE 2. A SCHEME OF CLASSIFICATION
Kai bebaia apo ta ellhnika MEQ-ODOS einai o dromos.
EXPERIMENT: A PROCEDURE UNDERTAKEN TO MAKE A DISCOVERY, TEST A HYPOTHESIS,
OR DEMONSTRATE A KNOWN FACT.
Apo tous parapanw orsimous h diafora einai fanerh. H methodologia einai
kati geniko, afora olous tous kladous ths episthmhs kai ths zwhs mas. H
methodologia exei na kanei me thn katagrafh twn gegonotwn.
To na anageis thn methodologia sto idio epipedo me to peirama einai sa na mou
les oti kaqe antidrash poy kanei enas xhmikos exei thn idia episthmonikh
aksia me ton pagko panw ston opoio ektelei to peirama.
To peirama apo thn allh exei skopimothta. Exei amesh sxesh me kapoia qewria
h meros kapoias qewrias.
Paei ayto.
>kai otan sou ekshghsa o,ti oute ligo oute polu les oti:
>
>Dhladh epimeneis oti h peiramatikh me0odologia den exei kammia sxesh me to
>peirama kai oti auth einai h koinws apodekth apopsh malista. Ti na pw...
>(Prwtopapa, auto to autogkol metraei?)
>
Otal leme "exeprimental methodology" Koutale, den bazoume to baros sto
methodology alla sto experimental. Esy xrhsimopoieis thn leksh methodology
eksw apo kaqe context.
Kanenas episthmonas den qa xrhsimopoihsei thn leksh methodology SKETH.
Qa pei h "experimental methodology" h sketo "method" ennowntas experimental
setup.
>> Ayto akribws einai h ousia. Kaqe peirama poy apotyxainei mou deixnei ta
oria
>> ths qewrias mou kai anoigei kainourgious lewforous. Ayto poy den
katalabainoun
>> kammia fora osoi asxolountai apokleistika me thn fusikh einai oti h
episthmh
>> einai dhmiourgikh drasthriothta. To peirama poy den douleuei den einai
>> adieksodo alla faros gia to TI mporei na douleyei. Ayto fainetai kaqara
>> sthn xhmeia.
>> oi xhmikoi molis anakaluyan ton xhmiko desmo den kaqisan sta ayga tous
>> alla arxisan na synqetoun ekatommyria kainourgia moria.
>> Den douleuei kapoio peirama, qa douleyei to alla kai parallhla mas deinei
>> plhrofories peri tou antikeimenou.
>
>S' auta genika sumfwnw, einai xarakthristika ths an0rwpinhs prakshs en
>genei, alla einai ektos 0ematos anaforika me thn koubenta
>peri GENIKHS episthmonikhs me0odou.
>
Den einai kaqolou xarakthristika ths "anqrwpinhs praksjs en genei".
Margaritari ki ayto "xarakthristika ths anqrwpinhs prakshs en genei"!!
Poy ta emaqes ta ellhnika sou??? Syggnwmh gia to proswpiko kai proxwrw.
H anqrwpinh symperifora xarakthrizetai akribws apo to antiqeto. Anakolouqies
kai synexh epanalhyh laqwn. Ayto stamataei h episthmh me thn katagrafh kai
koinopoihsh (ayto einai h meqodologia).
>
>> Blepeis ???? Ypoqeteis oti exw agnoia peri Yogkas ktl. Laqos. Akribws
epeidh
>> ta kserw poly kalytera apo oti mporei na fantasteis mesa sto pio trelo sou
>> oneiro
>> soy lew oti anafereis symperilambanomenhs kai ths alxhmeias DEN HTAN
>> mhxanismoi paragwghs gnwshs alla DROMOI MYSTIKISMOU.
>> O skopos den htan h gnwsh alla h teleiopoihsh ths proswpikothtas me ton
>> enan h ton allo tropo. Mhn mperdeueis loipon tis poutses me tis bourtses.
>> Allo o mystikismos kai allo h episthmh.
>
>Dhladh h proswpikothta den teleiopoieitai mesw ths gnwshs (oxi ths
>episthmonikhs bebaia)?? Ksanamana, ti na pw...
>
>
Oxi bebaia. H gnwsh den exei KAMMIA APOLYTWS SXESH me thn
teloiopoihsh ths proswpikothtas. Xekinwntas apo ton Xristo, kai olous
tous megalous Mystikistes ayto einai kati poy to fwnazoun oloi edw kai
aiwnes. H GNWSH DEN EXEI KAMMIA SXESH ME THN TELEIWSH
THS PROSWPIKOTHTAS.
Ti na peis bebaia afou eisai asxetos. Meine toulaxiston sta xwrafia
poy gnwrizeis.
>> >1) Kbantomhxanikh: Diathrhsh ths sunolikhs stroformhs fwtoniwn sthn
>> >antidrash hlektroniou-pozitroniou (gnwsto kai ws Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen
>> >paradokso -- pou katanthsame, na fernoume ta paradeigmata pou ftuname...
>> >alla me tous paliatsous pou mpleksame...)
>> >
>>
>> Twra ta piasame ta lefta mas. Zhthsa apo ton Koutalo na mou prosferei
>> ANTIFASH kai mou prosfere PARADOKSO. Epeidh eimai sigouros
>> oti den mporeis na katalabeis thn diafora ekshgw.
>> ANTIFASH einai otan h qewria problepei kati ALLO apo ayto poy parexei to
>> peirama. H KBANTIKH QEWRIA DEN EXEI SYNANTHSEI AKOMA
>> PEIRAMATA ANTIFATIKA. SE PROKALW.
>> DWSE mou Journal, kai reference kai qa paradextw dhmosia sthn LISTA
>> oti eimai BLAKAS.
>
>QED (kbont erat ntemonstratoum) ths BLAKEIAS sou Xartzoulakh. To 0ema sto
>EPR einai h diathrhsh ths sunolikhs stroformhs twn fwtoniwn. Ama
>perigrapseis ta fwtonia me wave functions pou den exoune proka0orismenh
>stroformh exeis to problhma ths metadwshs tou shmatos me taxuthta
>megaluterh auths tou fwtos outws wste ta fwtonia na kseroune ti stroformh
>prepei na exoune ana pasa stigmh pou 0a thn metrhsei o Prwtopapas. To oti
>sth bibliografia anaferetai san "paradokso" kai oxi san antifash posws me
>endiaferei. Auto pou me endiaferei einai kata poso 0a katakurw0ei to
>autogkol 'h oxi, ka0ws o Prwtopapas krathse pisinh panw sauto to shmeio.
>(shmeiwsh gia Prwtopapa: gia na mhn apantw kai sto diko sou mhnuma sto
>idio shmeio. To ti 0a kaneis me to EPR eksartatai apo to ti kapello
>foras. Ama s' aresei h Kopegxagh ola kala, ola wraia, ta fwtonia einai me
>allous parea, kai etsi sumperiferetai h fush bre paidi mou. Ama eisai
>to fantasma tou Bohm pas kai psaxneis gia hidden variables. Ama eisai
>Mpwntrigiar, e, gelas me ta problhmata twn fusikwn).
>
>
Fysika kai apodexomai thn Kopegxagh. Poio to problhma ??
DEN tiqetai problhma aytogkol. To "paradokso" exei ekshghqei ikanopoihtika,
kai malista me poly aplo tropo. Osoi endiaferontai as diabasoun
to biblio
The Dancing Wu Li Masters : An Overview of the New
Physics ~
Usually ships in 24 hours
Gary Zukav, David Finkelstein / Paperback /
Published 1980
>
>> >5) Sxetikothta: Peiramata tou Miller (ca. 1925) pou deiksane oti h
>> >taxuthta tou fwtos eksartatai apo thn taxuthta ths phghs. O Miller phre
>> >to brabeio ths Amerikanikhs Fusikhs Etaireias gia dauta.
>> >
>> >Ta parapanw einai gera peiramatika dedomena, dekta kai apo thn
>> >koinothta twn fusikwn (Prwtopapa, ws ki h agaph sou o Mpwntrigiar exei
>> >grapsei gia thn eirwnikh strathgikh tou fwtoniou mpah de goueh)
>>
>> Ki ayto qa to yaksw. Ws xhmikos den exw amesh prosbash alla
>> qa to brw. An to peirama tou Miller deixnei ayto AKRIBWS poy les
>> tote olh h qewria ths sxetikothtas einai laqos, mia kai ena apo ta dyo
basika
>> postulates einai oti h taxythta tou fwtos einai ANEKSARTHTH apo
>> tous parathrhtes kai tis alles kinhseis.
>
>Dustuxismene!! Na sou pw dhladh kai gia ta mpalamoutia tou Labouazie' ki
>esu 0a ftuseis kai th Xhmeia! Wwwww, eugenikh esu psuxh, amolunth apo ta
>mpalwmata, ta ksulwmata, kai ta masaz ths episthmhs, pou hsouna toso kairo
>pou se psaxname?? Wwwww, droserh aura esu, fusa panw apo ta araxniasmena
>trapezia autou tou kafeneiou, dialuse tous istous tou kunismou kai xarise
>thn xara stous 0amwnes...
>
Fysika ta mpalamoutia tou Lavouazie kai olwn twn allwn ta kserw.
Ti shmainei ayto?
Sou eipa h episthmh einai ergaleio. Oso pernaei ginetai pio koftero.
Tote mporousane kai ta kanane. Oi anqrwpoi panta einai diefqarmenoi.
Gi' ayto yparxei allhloelegxos.
>(Prwtopapa, ksanarwtaw, sthn omada sou paizei? Oxi tipota allo, na kserw
>an 0a metraw ta autogkol gia oxi)
>
Epnalambanw den mpaizw me kammia omada. :-)))
>> Epomenws dwse mas reference
>> poy to diabases gia na to elegskoume an kai qa to brw kai monos mou.
>
>To "Golem" twn Collins kai Pinch perigrafei auta ta peiramata kai
>0a breis kai ta references ekei. Rikse ki ena blefaro sto "Betrayers of
>the Truth", eidika sto Appendix, na ma0eis kai gia tous allous
>mpalamoutistes ths episthmhs.
>
>
Eimai sigouros oti qa einai endiaferon biblio. Qa prospaqhsw na to brw.
Elpizw na mhn einai to mono poy
exeis diabasei panw sthn filosofia ths episthmhs ;-))
>> Einai fanero oti endiaferesai pio poly na bazeis tampeles apo to
>> na sundialegesai. An to qema ths syzhthshs einai pws proseggizei
>> h episthmh thn pragamtikothta, ayto ginetai anamfisbhthta kai poly
>> petyxhmena mesa apo tis qewries.
>
>!!!! Dhladh ta kanonia douleuoune eneka ths 0ewrias ths bolhs ki oxi giati
>kapoioi ta FTIAKSANE peiramatika, sthn praksh, na douleuoune. Ti allo 0'
>akousw...
>
To prtwto kanoni mporei na ftiaxthke peirmatika alla enas pyraylos, h
o ypologisths poy xrhsimopoieis, h to farmako poy qa pareis otan arrwsthseis
h to faghto poy trws exoun paraxqei giati kapoia eksypna paidakia exoun
xrhsimopoihsei to myalo toys piqarxhmena me basei kapoies arxes poy
epitrepoun
thn systhmatikoterh paragwgh gnwshs.
>
>> An to qema mas einai pia proseggish
>> ths pragmatikothta einai kalyterh - ths episthmhs h kapoia allh - tote
>> prepei na
>> arxisoume allh syzhthsh. Esy exeis mpleksei authn thn stigmh ta dyo metaksy
>> tous. To oti yperaspizomai ton episthmiko tropo skeyeis den shmainei
>> aytomata oti ton qewrw ton kalytero dynato.
>
>Otan ksemperdepsoume me thn elleipsh GENIKHS episthmonikhs me0odou, tote
>0' arxisoume na suzhtame kai gia alles dunatothtes.
>
>
Ti na ksemperdeyoume?? Esy den qeleis na paradexteis oti kan yparxei.
Egw sou lew oti 300000 xhmikoi panw ston planhth (gia na milhsw gia ton
tomea mou) paragoun basika ta panta basizomenoi se ena poly mikro ariqmo
arxwn kai experimental setups kai esy agron hgorazeis
>> Mporei aplws na ton uioqetw dioti pisteuw oti einai pio apodotikos
>> stis sygkekrimenes synqhkes, kai anaforika me ta problhmata poy exw na
>> lysw. Gia na taisw ta 6dis tou planhth px den qa xrhsimopoihsw Yoga:-))
>
>W, nai, 0a xrhsimopoihseis biomhxanikh gewrgia kai prasines
>epanastaseis... (*)
>
>
Kserei o Prwtopapas an eimai uper ths biomhxanikhs gewrgias. Rwta ton!!
>> >pragmatikothta apo to pragma apo to prattw, htoi auto panw sto opoio
>> >droume, to antikeimeno ths an0rwpinhs drashs.
>> >
>> me ton orismo sou afhneis na ennohqei oti h PRAGMATIKOTHTA
>> den yparxei aneksarthta apo thn anqrwpinh drash.
>> Katalaba kala??
>
>Fusika kai h pragmatikothta uparxei aneksarthta apo mas. Alla epishs
>fusika, h pragmatikothta parousiazetai se mas PANTA san to antikeimeno ths
>an0rwpinhs drashs. H aneksarthth uparksh ths pragmatikothtas einai
>anousia parathrhsh. To 0ema einai to PWS diamorfwnetai h pragmatikothta
>mesa apo thn an0rwpinh drash.
>
>
Apo to parapanw einai fanero to problhma sou. To MONO PRAGMATIKO
EPIPEDO DRASHS KAQE ANQRWPOY EINAI MONO O EAYTOS TOU.
EINAI KAI H MONH PRAGMATIKOTHTA. OLA TA ALLA MPOREI NA EINAI
ENA ONEIRO VIRTUAL REALITY. Pws mporeis na me peiseis diaforetika????
Gwnso alyto filosofiko problhma.
>
>Oloi oi an0rwpoi eimaste koinwnika zwa (diabole, se koinwnies ginane
>an0rwpoi, den pesane apo ton ourano, oute o Xristos, oute o monaxos)
>
Sto Zen lene oti h Alhqeia brisketai panta ekei poy fainomenika
antiqetes topoqethseis synantiwntai. Pws einai dynaton na kateyqynqoume
pros ta esw teleiopoiwntas ton eayto mas kai tautoxrona na eimaste melh
ths koinwnias?
>
>giannhs
>
>(*) gia na mhn mplekesai, h biomhxanikh gewrgia doulepse gia tous ligous
>kai den ta.ise kai polu kosmo. Kallista h gewrgikh paragwgh 0a mporouse
>na ta.isei ton kosmo XWRIS lipasmata kai entomoktona (me sustainable
>me0odous, gnwstes apo polu paliotera). Den kserw gia thn katastash twra,
>ka0oti ta apotelesmata ths biomhxanikhs gewrgias sta nera kai sta edafh
>einai mallon epikinduna kai pi0anon na mhn uparxoune dunatothtes gia
>sustainability pleon.
>
Ta exw grayei ayta prin apo esena!!! H biomhxanikh gewrgia me thn opoia
eimai ki egw antiqetos einai MONO enas klados poy ephreazetai apo thn
episthmh.
Gia paradeigma to gala poy diathreitai sto yugeio den sou aresei?
To genetika metallagmeno fyto poy antexei sthn jhrasia?
kai para polla alla, alla na mhn jefeygoume.
Basilhs Highlander
Yiannis Koutalos
> Prosexe ti les kai pws to les giati ap'o,ti eida stn dikia sou omada
> paizei o sixamevos :-))))
O Sixamenos einai apo tous megaluterous paixtes pouxei anadeiksei touto to
kafeneio. Ta atrantaxta epixeirhmata tou (turannopoutanosaure,
tsoutsounolebie, tsimpoukopnixtra, kai alla polla) exoun apostomwsei
pampollous... Einai beteranos pleon, alla krinontas apo thn
epixeirhmatologia tou enantia ston Kapo ton blepw nanai se forma.
Mpah de goueh ntarlingk, fxaristw ta mala gia to kseka0arisma twn apopsewn
sou kai mou ston Xartz. Ka0ara kai ksastera tagrapses, tufla naxei o
Ntelez mprosta sou. O Xartz exei thn kardia sth swsth meria (s' auth me
to koutali), alla to mualo tou brisketai ston Plouto. Xartzoulakh mon
ami, diabase prosektika auta pou sou egrapse o Prwtopapas, giati me mena
0es na sumfwnhseis fobamai...
> Ola ta parapavw eivai/ntav sustnmatikoi tropoi paragwgns gvwsns. H alxnmeia
> exase to mats me tnv pragmatikotnta
H alxhmeia adah Belhgkeka exase to mats me thn Xhmeia, eneka tou
ntabatzilikiou twn xhmikwn. To 0ema einai oti h alxhmeia paragei
mh-metadwsimh gnwsh ka0oti oi alxhmistes den endiaferontousan, ki oute
0ewrousan dunato, na metadwsoun thn gnwsh pou parhgagan. Auth h gnwsh
eixe na kanei me th sxesh tou SUGKEKRIMENOU alxhmisth me thn
pragmatikothta, giauto kai den eixe nohma na metadw0ei. Oi xhmikoi 0elane
na sthsoune magazi kai xeri-xeri me tous dhmodhdaskalous kai
gumnasiarxes ka0e loghs pou 0elane na ftiaksoune sxoleia perasane th
xhmeia sta neara muala kai etsi h xhmeia epibiwse kai anaparax0hke, enw h
alxhmeia parhkmase.
> evw n giogka kai to tsi kratave gera kai
> av n gvwsn pou exouv paragagei eivai suvepns me tnv pragmatikotnta tote 9a
> mporouv va evswmatw9ouv stnv epistnmn arga n' grngora
Ti les bre trisa0lie imperialisth? Olh h gnwsh pounai sunephs me thn
pragmatikothta (OLES oi gnwseis einai sunepeis me thn pragmatikothta,
alla paei sto diaolo) mporei na enswmatw0ei sthn episthmh? Opws kseroume
amfoteroi, to mono shmeio (kai to shmantikotato) sto opoio diafwnoume
einai h uparksh aneksarthtou krithriou gia thn krish ths episthmonikhs
gnwshs. H episthmonikh gnwsh exei to xarakthristiko oti den anaferetai
sthn PROSWPIKH sxesh an0rwpou-kosmou. O ka0e alxhmisths 'h giogki paragei
diaforetikh gnwsh (allo Kountalini ki allo Koutalini) ka0ws meleta thn
dikh tou sxesh me thn pragmatikothta kai allazei ton eauto tou mesa apo
thn diadikasia auth. H enswmatwsh sthn episthmh 0a shmaine thn isopedwsh
twn diaforopoihsewn metaksu an0rwpwn. Katw ta koula sou loipon koufala.
> >Loipon, exw udrogono kai oksugono ta opoia sumfwna me thn 0ewria tou
> >xhmikou desmou prepei na mou dwsoune neraki otan ta anakatepsw. Ta
> >anakateuw loipon, kai pairnw oxi neraki, alla ta rx/ tou Prwtopapa.
> >Sumfwna me to alan0asto episthmologiko krithrio ths sunepeias to
> >apotelesma shmainei oti h 0ewria tou xhmikou desmou pasxei. Nespa?
>
> Autn tn blakeia Koutale tnv exeis 3avapei kai eixes parei ta rx/ tou Prwtopapa
> kai tote av 9umamai kala.
Otan eixa ksefwnhsei ton kseftilismeno foromphxth, ton aimoroufhxtra ton
Labouazie. Alla den xreiazetai na ksananoiksw tis ntoulapes me tous
skeletous kai tis zartieres ths episthmhs Prwtopapa, 0a sou ekshghsw gia
thn hlektrolush xwris na anafer0w sta mpalamoutia tou Labouazie.
> Ki as mn summeteixa stn suzntnsn ekeivn tn fora
> (sta'xa steilei me to vou mou, pws leme n agapn mou pavta mazi sou). H 9ewria
> ektos apo tn sustasn sou leei kai tis suv9nkes tns avtidrasns.
Isa re koufala! Pou leei h 0ewria ti surmata, ti doxeio, ti NERO
(xreiazetai elafrws oksino dialuma mon cheri, kai xwris polu alati, gia na
mhn sou bgainei to oksugono prasino), POSO DUNAMIKO na baleis??? To
teleutaio einai tromera shmantiko, ka0oti egw goustarw na balw miso volt,
me dis apestagmeno nero sthn mpaniera mou kai ta xalkina surmata se
apostash 2 metrwn (exw megalh mpaniera) kai na tsekarw poso aerio phra
meta apo 10 milliseconds. Oksugono ki udrogono les na parw? Mallon ta
aeria tou Petropoulou 0a parw. 'H mhpws den kanw "swsta" to peirama? Na
allaksw tipota? Porke? Giati etsi leei h 0ewria 'h esu?
giannhs
UG: Lhda xruso mou, alxhmeia, giogka, aristotelikh fusikh (mh tsimpas
0anasare gia asunepeies me thn pragmatikothta, 0a anax0oume sthn koubenta
gia thn epilogh peiramatwn se nte-te -- kai to 0ema ths epiloghs twn
dedomenwn htan safes ston Telh, giauto kai den metraei h fusikh tou gia
episthmonikh 0ewria), einai ola susthmata gnwshs, kai malista mh
episthmonika.
Petros Petropoulos
>uparxei 9ewrntikn epistnmovikn me9odos me tnv opoia mporoume va ka9orisoume
>ti eivai epistnmovikn gvwsn xwris koivwvikes diadikasies. Kai oti autn
>n me9odos eivai mia, isxuei gia oles tis epistnmovikes drastnriotntes, kai
>basei autns 3exwrizoume tnv nra apo to stari otav katakatsei o peiramatikos
>kourviaxtos. O Koutalos leei oti auto de givetai stnv pra3n kai dev mporei
>va givei oute 9ewrntika.
Koutale, gia pes mas ti gvwmn eixes epi tou 0ematos pro tou 1991 (opote kai
dnmosieutnke to ``Knowledge and Social Imagery''). Kai eksngnse mou se parakalw
giati o Bloor ekave gargara to symmetry priciple sto prosfato biblio tou ?
Ta parakatw pros apokatastasn tns aln0eias.
Kai fusika o Koutalos dev exei apodeiksei tnv 0esn tou perav va mas kopavaei
gia Eddington kai Miller, kai kati gia electron spin (pasaleimata avaptygmeva
apo tov 0ematika asxeto H. Collins, p.x.)...
Ovtas asxetos eis 0emata Fusikns o Koutalos ksexvaei oti to problnma
pauei va ufistatai otav opoios avakateuetai me tetoia pitoura exei katavonsei
oti dev vontai elektrov spin se rest frame.
Oso gia ta upoloipa sxetikistika pou mas tsmpouvaei apo tn Biblo tou (The
Golem: what everyone should know about science):
Ta peiramata tou Miller (1921-1925) tov odngnsav se paragwgn kaivourgias
0ewrias tou ai0era (upnrxav 6-7 diaforetikes pro Aivstaiv kai fusika kammia
dev sumfwvouse me ta peiramata Michelson-Morley (1887-1888) kai Miller-Morley
(1905) pou dev briskave aether drag. Autn n kaivourgia 0ewria tou Miller
dev eksngouse stellar aberation kai dev eksngouse tnv sta0erotnta tou
drag pou metrnse sav syvartnsn tou upsometrou. Fusika, to 1926 o Kennedy
me 4 fores kalytero sensitivity dev brnke aether drag. To idio kai
oi Piccard-Stahel sto oros Rigi tov idio xrovo. To idio, me 10 fores kalytero
sensitivity o Illingworth to 1927. To idio, me 50 fores kalytero sensitivity,
oi Michelson-Pease-Pearson to 1929...k.l.p...paei autos.
To perihelion tou Ermn eksngn0nke/upologistnke apo tov Aivstain tov Noebrio
tou 1915 kai ebgale to voumero 43"/aiwva...n timn autn ntav 43"/aiwva to
1882 kai snmera eivai 43".11 +/- 0.45.
O Eddington dev ekave kaveva peirama. O Eddington ekave paratnrnseis sto vnsi
Principe tns Ispavikns Gouiveas. Parallnles paratnrnseis ekave kai o Crommelin
(apo to Greenwich) sto Sobral tns Brazilias. Stis 6 Noebriou 1905 o Eddington
parousiase ta apotelesmata twv duo omadwv kai avakoivwse ta duo apotelesmata
ws 1".98 +/- 0".3 kai 1".61 +/- 0".3 gia to bending o light.
Oi duo prwtes periptwseis apotelouv paratnrnseis pou n 0ewria eksngnse me to
va divei tnv dyvatotnta (xwris fudge factors) va upologizoume ta voumera
pou bgazouv oi paratnrnseis.
H tritn periptwsn apotelei paratnrnsn pou egive pros elegxo tns 0ewrias.
Petros
Costa Flocas
[SMTP:pet...@GOLEM.MATH.SMU.EDU] wrote:
Pepe, me th 8erapeia tou karkinou ti egine, th brhkes telika? ;-)
cf
Panos Kouklis
elementary, auth exei bre0ei edw kai kana xrono kai opou nanai bgainei :
angiostatin, endostatin
emena pantws auto pou me problhmatise sobara shmera pou anoixa th lista
htan to erwthma pou ebale o tseligas: giati o gyftos einai telika kalyteros
klarinitzhs, 0a pros0eta kai kalyteros biolitzhs, giati an 0elete o mauros
einai kalyteros saxofwnistas h o asiaths kalyteros cellistas?
einai h taxikh proeleush/politistiko background auth pou diamorfwnei tis
taseis gia dhmiourgiko autosxediasmo?
h mhpws einai kati sta gonidia?
kai kala me tous a0lhtes einai profanes alla me th mousikh?
pantws oi kalyteroi klarinitzhdes sthn ellada prepei na einai oi hpeirwtes,
na pas se panhgyri ekei panw tyfla naxei o miles davis kai oloi oi
mplouzades mazi
panos
ps gia tous peri to sikago: 10 - 20 septebriou: nick cave kai massive attack
Petros Petropoulos
Autn pou leei oti oi koivwviologikes avaluseis have to be impartial
with respect to the truth or falsity, rationality or irrationality,
success or failure twv 0ewriwv twv opoiwv to periexomevo eivai upo
avalusn.
>Wwwww... nasou h koinwnikopolitikh diadikasia pou legame. "0ematika
>asxetos" o Collins, ara "den dikaiouste dia na omileite". Trexa sth
>gwnia na deis an erxomai Petropoule.
Re saltimpagko, av dev kserei peri ti o logos sto epistnmoviko
epipedo opou xwvetai, pws mporei o koivwviologos va ksexwrisei stous
emplekomevous epistnmoves ta ``pisteuw'' me ka0ara koivwviologika aitia
apo ta ``pisteuw'' me isxuovta empeirika aitia ?
>PWS ekshgeis ta peiramata tou Miller?
Me tn douleia twv Shankland-McCuskey-Leone-Kuerti (1955) pou
brnkav oti ``Miller's Positive Results Caused by Statistical Fluctuations
in the Readings and Systematic Temperature Disturbances''. Bebaia, o
Collins kai o Pinch to ekavav gargara ektos apo to Postscript stn
selida 43 tou bibliou tous (xwris va divouv kammia leptomereia). Kai idou
n aporia mou: Pou brnkav grammevo oti oi ``Michelson-Morley proved
relativity'' ? Poios ftaiei gia tnv elleipn gymvasiakn gwvsn pou elabav ?
>> To perihelion tou Ermn eksngn0nke/upologistnke apo tov Aivstain tov Noebrio
>> tou 1915 kai ebgale to voumero 43"/aiwva...n timn autn ntav 43"/aiwva to
>> 1882 kai snmera eivai 43".11 +/- 0.45.
>
>Ouden sxolion. Prepei na ksanakoitaksw to pws tokane gia na paiksw
>endiaferousa mpalla.
Koita sto "Subtle is the Lord..." tou A. Pais.
>>
>> O Eddington dev ekave kaveva peirama. O Eddington ekave paratnrnseis
>
>Ontws. Gia eukolia tsoubaliasa peirama kai parathrhsh. Den exei
>idiaiterh shmasia gia thn sugkekrimenh koubenta.
Dev ekplnssomai mias kai katalabaivw oti eisai dnlwmevos arvntns tou
objective reality. Apo oti faivetai akomn va syvel0eis apo to ksebrakwma
pou sas erikse o Sokal.
>Petropoule, h neutwneia problepei ki auth bending of light. Blepw oti
>etsi0elika mas les oti h genikh sxetikothta einai h swsth, kai peri ths
>tampakieras kaneis gargares. Me poia 0ewria sumfwnoune ta noumera,
>xwris mpalamoutia kai upekfuges?
Symfwvouv me to voumero tou Aivstaiv. To veutwvio voumero eivai to miso
(frevo Koutale giati exw paketarei pros metakomisn eis Nea Yersey kai
ta kitapia mou eivai sta xeria tou UPS) av 0umamai kala. Upnrksav prospa0eies
opou merikoi allaksav to 2 sto vomo tou veutwva alla auto fervei mesa
adjustable parameters evw o Aivstain bgazei to voumero apo first
principles.
Petros
Phidias Bourlas
>
> On Wednesday, August 12, 1998 6:31 PM, Petros Petropoulos
> [SMTP:pet...@GOLEM.MATH.SMU.EDU] wrote:
>
> Pepe, me th 8erapeia tou karkinou ti egine, th brhkes telika? ;-)
> cf
Kati pio duskolo;
Auta exouv "bre8ei" edw kai xrovia!
Gia tou logou to aln8es, oriste tsarlatavoeides mnvuma pou nr8e pro
kairou, mazi me alla polla skoupidia, sto grammatokibwtio mou.
F.M.
---
> Subject: If you know someone with cancer...
> From: <ja...@aol.com>
> To: a...@uunet.uu.net
>
> If you know someone with cancer give them this information please.
> The answer to cancer has been know for years.
> http://www.laetrile.net
Yiannis Koutalos
>
> >O Koutalos epikevtrwvei tnv kritikn tou se auto pou eipa egw, oti dnladn
> >uparxei 9ewrntikn epistnmovikn me9odos me tnv opoia mporoume va ka9orisoume
> >ti eivai epistnmovikn gvwsn xwris koivwvikes diadikasies. Kai oti autn
> >n me9odos eivai mia, isxuei gia oles tis epistnmovikes drastnriotntes, kai
> >basei autns 3exwrizoume tnv nra apo to stari otav katakatsei o peiramatikos
> >kourviaxtos. O Koutalos leei oti auto de givetai stnv pra3n kai dev mporei
> >va givei oute 9ewrntika.
>
> Koutale, gia pes mas ti gvwmn eixes epi tou 0ematos pro tou 1991 (opote kai
> dnmosieutnke to ``Knowledge and Social Imagery'').
Ligo-polu mia apo ta idia. Des to pitsinti mou (1990) an den me
pisteueis.
> Kai eksngnse mou se parakalw
> giati o Bloor ekave gargara to symmetry priciple sto prosfato biblio tou ?
Poia arxh summetrias apoles? Uparxei auth pou leei oti oles oi gnwseis
einai isodunames, opote h parathroumenh asummetria metaksu episthmhs kai
px ESP einai antikeimeno meleths kai apaitei ermhneia. Uparxei ki auth
pou leei oti koinwnikes kai ulikes ekshghseis einai epishs isodunames,
htoi xrhsimopoiei summetria koinwnias-fushs.
To 0ema einai oti sthn arxh tou science studies riksane polu emfash sto
koinwnikopolitiko (px oi meletes gia frenologia twn Shapin/Barnes, 'h to
"Laboratory Life" twn Latour/Woolgar) kai ftasane sxedon na lene oti
mporousane na ta ekshghsoune ola me to koinwniko. Otan to
kaloskefthkane ta mazepsane (blepe thn allagh tou upotitlou sto
"Laboratory Life" stis diaforetikes ekdwseis, opws kai to summazema tou
Shapin teleutaia). O Latour milaei twra gia fusio-koinwnika ubridia, ta
opoia einai enas wraios tropos na perigrafeis ti ginetai (an kai apoti
fainetai oxi idiaitera kainourgios -- o Arthur Fine mouxe ekshghsei oti
einai ousiastika h 0ewria tou Mach)
> Ta parakatw pros apokatastasn tns aln0eias.
Siga re prostath ths Alh0eias.
>
> Kai fusika o Koutalos dev exei apodeiksei tnv 0esn tou perav va mas kopavaei
> gia Eddington kai Miller, kai kati gia electron spin (pasaleimata avaptygmeva
> apo tov 0ematika asxeto H. Collins, p.x.)...
Wwwww... nasou h koinwnikopolitikh diadikasia pou legame. "0ematika
asxetos" o Collins, ara "den dikaiouste dia na omileite". Trexa sth
gwnia na deis an erxomai Petropoule.
> Ovtas asxetos eis 0emata Fusikns o Koutalos ksexvaei oti to problnma
> pauei va ufistatai otav opoios avakateuetai me tetoia pitoura exei katavonsei
> oti dev vontai elektrov spin se rest frame.
Saxlamares. To EPR, kai einai kai peiramatika elegksimo, sou leei oti
apaks kai metrhseis thn stroformh enos apo ta fwtonia tote ksereis kai
to apotelesma ths metrhshs ths stroformhs tou allou fwtoniou pou mporei
nanai stou diaolou th mana.
> Oso gia ta upoloipa sxetikistika pou mas tsmpouvaei apo tn Biblo tou (The
> Golem: what everyone should know about science):
>
> Ta peiramata tou Miller (1921-1925) tov odngnsav se paragwgn kaivourgias
> 0ewrias tou ai0era (upnrxav 6-7 diaforetikes pro Aivstaiv kai fusika kammia
> dev sumfwvouse me ta peiramata Michelson-Morley (1887-1888) kai Miller-Morley
> (1905) pou dev briskave aether drag. Autn n kaivourgia 0ewria tou Miller
> dev eksngouse stellar aberation kai dev eksngouse tnv sta0erotnta tou
> drag pou metrnse sav syvartnsn tou upsometrou. Fusika, to 1926 o Kennedy
> me 4 fores kalytero sensitivity dev brnke aether drag. To idio kai
> oi Piccard-Stahel sto oros Rigi tov idio xrovo. To idio, me 10 fores kalytero
> sensitivity o Illingworth to 1927. To idio, me 50 fores kalytero sensitivity,
> oi Michelson-Pease-Pearson to 1929...k.l.p...paei autos.
Ti paei kai pou paei Afelestate? PWS ekshgeis ta peiramata tou Miller?
Me pshfoforia apofasizeis poia peiramata kratas kai poia oxi? 'H epeidh
h 0ewria tou Miller xanei se alla peiramata, xanoune kai ta peiramata
ths metrhshs ths eksarthshs ths taxuthtas apo thn phgh?
> To perihelion tou Ermn eksngn0nke/upologistnke apo tov Aivstain tov Noebrio
> tou 1915 kai ebgale to voumero 43"/aiwva...n timn autn ntav 43"/aiwva to
> 1882 kai snmera eivai 43".11 +/- 0.45.
Ouden sxolion. Prepei na ksanakoitaksw to pws tokane gia na paiksw
endiaferousa mpalla. H eukolh apanthsh einai oti ksanamana exeis tis
peiramatikes metrhseis. Dwsmou ena thleskopio na sou metrhsei h
salamantra mou thn metaptwsh na deis an 0a sumfwnhsei me thn 0ewria 'h
oxi.
>
> O Eddington dev ekave kaveva peirama. O Eddington ekave paratnrnseis
Ontws. Gia eukolia tsoubaliasa peirama kai parathrhsh. Den exei
idiaiterh shmasia gia thn sugkekrimenh koubenta.
sto vnsi
> Principe tns Ispavikns Gouiveas. Parallnles paratnrnseis ekave kai o Crommelin
> (apo to Greenwich) sto Sobral tns Brazilias. Stis 6 Noebriou 1905 o Eddington
> parousiase ta apotelesmata twv duo omadwv kai avakoivwse ta duo apotelesmata
> ws 1".98 +/- 0".3 kai 1".61 +/- 0".3 gia to bending o light.
>
> Oi duo prwtes periptwseis apotelouv paratnrnseis pou n 0ewria eksngnse me to
> va divei tnv dyvatotnta (xwris fudge factors) va upologizoume ta voumera
> pou bgazouv oi paratnrnseis.
>
> H tritn periptwsn apotelei paratnrnsn pou egive pros elegxo tns 0ewrias.
Petropoule, h neutwneia problepei ki auth bending of light. Blepw oti
etsi0elika mas les oti h genikh sxetikothta einai h swsth, kai peri ths
tampakieras kaneis gargares. Me poia 0ewria sumfwnoune ta noumera,
xwris mpalamoutia kai upekfuges?
>
> Petros
giannhs
Petros Petropoulos
>parousiase ta apotelesmata twv duo omadwv
Fusika edw evvow 1919 oxi 1905...
Petros
Yiannis Koutalos
kati tupoi san kai sena me kanoun na euxaristw tous 0eous gia tous
Prwtopapes tou kosmou. Einai oi Belhgkekes pou sas tromokratoun
giati eid' alliws arxinate tis parakatw malakies:
Egrapses:
> >> >> H meqodologia den exei kammia sxesh me to peirama. Sto bebaiwnw.
kai sou ekshghsa oti eleges mpourdes. Phges meta san Xartzoulakhs pou
eisai se leksiko gia na to kaneis pasifanes oti les malakies:
> METHODOLOGY: a body of Methods
> METHOD: 1. A SPECIAL FORM OF PROCEDURE 2. A SCHEME OF CLASSIFICATION
>
> Kai bebaia apo ta ellhnika MEQ-ODOS einai o dromos.
>
> EXPERIMENT: A PROCEDURE UNDERTAKEN TO MAKE A DISCOVERY, TEST A HYPOTHESIS,
> OR DEMONSTRATE A KNOWN FACT.
Dhladh re Xartzoulakh, to sunolo twn me0odwn pou xrhsimopoioume gia na
dieksagoume peiramata den exei sxesh me ta peiramata? Ti na pw... Afou
sto leei kai to leksiko re OUFO oti to peirama einai mia diadikasia, kai
oti h me0odos einai morfh diadikasias, enw h me0odologia einai sunolo
morfwn diadikasias. To peirama ginetai me ena kapoio tropo pana0ema se.
Autos o tropos einai h me0odos, h me0odologia gamw to kerato tou ekswtikou
mou frunou...
Epishs, apo thn arxh ths koubentas me ton Prwtopapa xrhsimopoiousame
"me0odologia" kai "me0odo" gia na anafer0oume se diaforetika pragmata.
para0etw apo ena mhnuma mou prin kammia 10aria meres:
(kai gia na mhn mperdeuomaste: gia texnikes me0odous kai
praktikes sulloghs dedomenwn xrhsimopoiw ton oro "me0odologia". To
"me0odos" to krataw gia to antikeimeno ths fantasias tou Prwtopapa, gia ta
episthmologika krithria).
> Apo tous parapanw orsimous h diafora einai fanerh. H methodologia einai
> kati geniko, afora olous tous kladous ths episthmhs kai ths zwhs mas.
Ta agglika sou pasxoun blepw. "A body of methods", "A body" asteri mou,
"A body". Ena sunolo, organwmeno sunolo, me0odwn, texnikwn, gamw to
feleki ths salamantras mou... San organwmeno sunolo einai kati POLU
SUGKEKRIMENO re talaipwre. Oxi kati geniko.
> methodologia exei na kanei me thn katagrafh twn gegonotwn.
> To na anageis thn methodologia sto idio epipedo me to peirama
!!!!! Ti poutses, ti bourtses, ti ksustria, ti mpikouti... takanes ola
Xartzoulakh imam mpa.ilnti. H me0odologia einai TROPOS dieksagwghs
peiramatos erme, ermaio ths blakeias sou... Me0odologia kai peirama den
einai to idio prama, alla sxetizontai kai stena malista. Peirama xwris
me0odologia DEN ginetai.
> einai sa na mou
> les oti kaqe antidrash poy kanei enas xhmikos exei thn idia episthmonikh
> aksia me ton pagko panw ston opoio ektelei to peirama.
Apo thn polh erxomai kai sthn korfh Xartzoulakhs.
> Otal leme "exeprimental methodology" Koutale, den bazoume to baros sto
> methodology alla sto experimental. Esy xrhsimopoieis thn leksh methodology
> eksw apo kaqe context.
> Kanenas episthmonas den qa xrhsimopoihsei thn leksh methodology SKETH.
> Qa pei h "experimental methodology" h sketo "method" ennowntas experimental
> setup.
!!!!! method = experimental setup??? Wime!!!! Ali, ali kai trisali...
H me0odos perilambanei to setup fws ths rodaughs kai aura tou pelagous.
Oso gia th me0odologia (kai gia th me0odo) den einai mono peiramatikh
trisdusmoire, giauto kai kala 0a kaneis na to afhseis to experimental ekei
pou to brhkes.
Xartzoulakh cheri, anoikse kana ar0ro apo episthmoniko periodiko kai rikse
mia matia sto Materials & Methods section na deis mpas kai ksestrabw0eis.
Kai des kai 0ewrhtika ar0ra pouxoune kai dauta Methods section, na deis
ligoulaki ti lene ki oi episthmones.
[xrats swros apo epipleon blakeies peri me0odologias]
> Oxi bebaia. H gnwsh den exei KAMMIA APOLYTWS SXESH me thn
> teloiopoihsh ths proswpikothtas. Xekinwntas apo ton Xristo, kai olous
> tous megalous Mystikistes ayto einai kati poy to fwnazoun oloi edw kai
> aiwnes. H GNWSH DEN EXEI KAMMIA SXESH ME THN TELEIWSH
> THS PROSWPIKOTHTAS.
Poioi ta lene auta re xatzatzarh? Ama den exoun gnwsh PWS teleiwnoun thn
proswpikothta?
Pame sthn kbantomhxanikh twra:
> Fysika kai apodexomai thn Kopegxagh. Poio to problhma ??
Me bash poia krithria thn apodexesai? Epeidh s' aresoun oi Danezes? 'H
exeis Prwtopapiko episthmologiko krithrio gia na thn dialekseis?
> DEN tiqetai problhma aytogkol. To "paradokso" exei ekshghqei ikanopoihtika,
> kai malista me poly aplo tropo. Osoi endiaferontai as diabasoun
> to biblio
>
> The Dancing Wu Li Masters : An Overview of the New
> Physics ~
Paparia exei ekshgh0ei Xartzoulakh. Alla afou o tropos einai tooooooso
aplos, giati den mas xarizeis thn ekshghsh pou exeis brei stous
Xoreutarades Bou-Lh?? (a re Prwtopapa, ki egw pou diabaza Fon Nwhman gia
na katalabw kbantomhxanikh xwris na kserw gia tous Xoreutarades hmouna
malakas me perikefalaia. Nasai kala re Xartz me thn bibliografia sou na
poume)
> Sou eipa h episthmh einai ergaleio. Oso pernaei ginetai pio koftero.
> Tote mporousane kai ta kanane. Oi anqrwpoi panta einai diefqarmenoi.
Alla h episthmh einai agnh par0ena pou anaduetai mesa apo thn lasph ths
diaf0oras. Nai, thn aggikse o Prwtopapas me to magiko episthmologiko
rabdi tou kai thn eksagnise. De mas xezeis re Ntalara...
> Gi' ayto yparxei allhloelegxos.
Mesa apo tis koinwnikopolitikes diadikasies tou ka0e tomea... Ouououou, o
Prwtopapas exei katourh0ei apo th xara tou m' auta pou grafeis.
> To prtwto kanoni mporei na ftiaxthke peirmatika alla enas pyraylos, h
> o ypologisths poy xrhsimopoieis, h to farmako poy qa pareis otan arrwsthseis
> h to faghto poy trws exoun paraxqei giati kapoia eksypna paidakia exoun
> xrhsimopoihsei to myalo toys piqarxhmena me basei kapoies arxes poy
> epitrepoun
> thn systhmatikoterh paragwgh gnwshs.
Swsta ola auta, alla na sumplhrwsw oti gia na ftiax0oun auta pou les egine
KAI peiramatikh douleia gia na enarmonistei h 0ewria kai h praktikh. Den
egine epifoithsh sta eksupna muala kai doulepsane ta pramata sthn praksh
ws dia mageias.
> Ti na ksemperdeyoume?? Esy den qeleis na paradexteis oti kan yparxei.
> Egw sou lew oti 300000 xhmikoi panw ston planhth (gia na milhsw gia ton
> tomea mou) paragoun basika ta panta basizomenoi se ena poly mikro ariqmo
> arxwn kai experimental setups kai esy agron hgorazeis
Kai sou epanalambanw oti les blakeies. O mikros ari0mos arxwn kai setups
erxetai me muriades me0odologies (anoikse kai kana ar0ro tou tomea sou)
gia na ftiax0oun ta muriades pro.ionta.
> Apo to parapanw einai fanero to problhma sou. To MONO PRAGMATIKO
> EPIPEDO DRASHS KAQE ANQRWPOY EINAI MONO O EAYTOS TOU.
Saxles.
> EINAI KAI H MONH PRAGMATIKOTHTA. OLA TA ALLA MPOREI NA EINAI
> ENA ONEIRO VIRTUAL REALITY. Pws mporeis na me peiseis diaforetika????
> Gwnso alyto filosofiko problhma.
Opws 0a soulege ki o Prwtopapas, phda apo to mpalkoni sou. Oi
anti-realistes toxoune lusei pro pollou. To problhma einai gia tous
idealistes (kai ta diduma adelfakia tous, tous realistes) filosofous.
Sthn praksh den uparxei kanena problhma.
> Sto Zen lene oti h Alhqeia brisketai panta ekei poy fainomenika
> antiqetes topoqethseis synantiwntai.
H salamantra mou na deis ti leei pou diabazei ton katalogo tou Mustikou
ths Biktwrias (ton brhke h a0lia katw apo thn polu0rona).
> Pws einai dynaton na kateyqynqoume
> pros ta esw teleiopoiwntas ton eayto mas kai tautoxrona na eimaste melh
> ths koinwnias?
Epifulassomai. Gia episthmologia milame twra.
> >(*) gia na mhn mplekesai, h biomhxanikh gewrgia doulepse gia tous ligous
> >kai den ta.ise kai polu kosmo. Kallista h gewrgikh paragwgh 0a mporouse
> >na ta.isei ton kosmo XWRIS lipasmata kai entomoktona (me sustainable
> >me0odous, gnwstes apo polu paliotera). Den kserw gia thn katastash twra,
> >ka0oti ta apotelesmata ths biomhxanikhs gewrgias sta nera kai sta edafh
> >einai mallon epikinduna kai pi0anon na mhn uparxoune dunatothtes gia
> >sustainability pleon.
> >
>
> Ta exw grayei ayta prin apo esena!!!
Katoura kai ligo re Xartzoulakh. Pane 9-10 xronia apo tote pou ksefwnhsa
thn biomhxanikh gewrgia sto kafeneio.
> Gia paradeigma to gala poy diathreitai sto yugeio den sou aresei?
> To genetika metallagmeno fyto poy antexei sthn jhrasia?
> kai para polla alla, alla na mhn jefeygoume.
Xartzoulakh, paralhreis. En genei sumfwnw en merei, alla auto anoigei
allh koubenta, gia thn ektimhsh ths episthmhs. Alla sou ekshghse o
Prwtopapas gia to ti koubentiazoume twra. Euxomai na katalabes.
giannhs
Lida Anestidou
> ps gia tous peri to sikago: 10 - 20 septebriou: nick cave kai massive attack
nai, eixes den eixes thn peta3es th bomba, twra, Pano kai na klaime emeis oi
regges.
gia dwse stigma pote akribws, mh mas pesei panw se kammia katadysh>:>
Lida Anestidou
> 0anasare gia asunepeies me thn pragmatikothta, 0a anax0oume sthn koubenta
> gia thn epilogh peiramatwn se nte-te -- kai to 0ema ths epiloghs twn
> dedomenwn htan safes ston Telh, giauto kai den metraei h fusikh tou gia
> episthmonikh 0ewria), einai ola susthmata gnwshs, kai malista mh
> episthmonika.
Nai, Giannh, basika pou les, mou exeis dhmiourghsei mian aporia naaaaa (me to
sumpa8eio).
Prose3e me: egw pou spoudazw edw xamou, apoktw kammia gnwsh? kai an nai, thn
apoktw
mesa apo to episthmoniko susthma gnwshs?
oso hmouna sxoleio, poio susthma gnwshs me ekpaideue? otan paw sto barnes kai
noble,
h sto amazon bre paidi mou, kai agorazw biblia poikilwn endiaferontwn (lege me
egkuklopaidikh morfwsh- miso lepto na parw pagakia, etsi parhggeile o
xeirourgos),
ti susthma gnwshs e3uphretw?
o xristianismos einai kai autos systhma gnwshs?
h oikokurikh?
h mageirikh?
kai telika, giatio exei tosh shmasia h barygdouph ta3inomhsh ths gnwshs se
systhmata?
Lhda
Panos Kouklis
>
>> ps gia tous peri to sikago: 10 - 20 septebriou: nick cave kai massive attack
>
>nai, eixes den eixes thn peta3es th bomba, twra, Pano kai na klaime emeis oi
>regges.
panw pou tetoia tyxh
>gia dwse stigma pote akribws, mh mas pesei panw se kammia katadysh>:>
septembrio mhna katadyseis? lida me apogohteueis...
martio me aprilh stis aktes ths kornouallhs kai mono
panos
Basilhs Hartzoulakis
kai meta to strapatso apo ton Petropoulo. Tou leei o anqrwpos
oti to peirama poy epikalesthke egine me xamhlh euaisqhsia alla aytos
epimenei.
Alla as epikentrwqw se oti katamartyrei se emena:
>
>Xartzoulakh,
>
>kati tupoi san kai sena me kanoun na euxaristw tous 0eous gia tous
>Prwtopapes tou kosmou. Einai oi Belhgkekes pou sas tromokratoun
>giati eid' alliws arxinate tis parakatw malakies:
Me tromokratei o Prwtopapas, AS GELASW tris kai me mia kolotoumpa
sto telos, eimai kai ths gymnastikhs jereis. Filakia ston Prwtopapa
ton tromokrath.
>> METHODOLOGY: a body of Methods
>> METHOD: 1. A SPECIAL FORM OF PROCEDURE 2. A SCHEME OF CLASSIFICATION
>>
>> Kai bebaia apo ta ellhnika MEQ-ODOS einai o dromos.
>>
>> EXPERIMENT: A PROCEDURE UNDERTAKEN TO MAKE A DISCOVERY, TEST A HYPOTHESIS,
>> OR DEMONSTRATE A KNOWN FACT.
>
>Dhladh re Xartzoulakh, to sunolo twn me0odwn pou xrhsimopoioume gia na
>dieksagoume peiramata den exei sxesh me ta peiramata? Ti na pw... Afou
>sto leei kai to leksiko re OUFO oti to peirama einai mia diadikasia, kai
>oti h me0odos einai morfh diadikasias, enw h me0odologia einai sunolo
>morfwn diadikasias. To peirama ginetai me ena kapoio tropo pana0ema se.
>Autos o tropos einai h me0odos, h me0odologia gamw to kerato tou ekswtikou
>mou frunou...
>
Koutale, kanonika den qa eprepe na kourazw to plhktrologio mou (estw kai 1000
strokes apo ta 100000000 strokes zwhs tou einai spatalh sthn periptwsh sou)
alla
syzhtame to agaphmeno mou qema.
Gia na sou apodeiksw loipon oti h MEQODOLOGIA DEN EXEI SHMASIA
qa sou dwsw ena xeiropiasto paradeigma gia na teleiwnoume telos pantwn
me to qema.
To prwto einai to agaphmeno sou EPR experiment.
DYO MEQODOLOGIES:
1) Thought EXPERIMENT
2) Practical EXPERIMENT
Kai ta dyo symfwnoun. Katse ston pagko sou twra, kai mhn mou peis oti
den einai diaforetikes meqodologies.
>Epishs, apo thn arxh ths koubentas me ton Prwtopapa xrhsimopoiousame
>"me0odologia" kai "me0odo" gia na anafer0oume se diaforetika pragmata.
>para0etw apo ena mhnuma mou prin kammia 10aria meres:
>
>(kai gia na mhn mperdeuomaste: gia texnikes me0odous kai
>praktikes sulloghs dedomenwn xrhsimopoiw ton oro "me0odologia". To
>"me0odos" to krataw gia to antikeimeno ths fantasias tou Prwtopapa, gia ta
>episthmologika krithria).
>
>"A body". Ena sunolo, organwmeno sunolo, me0odwn, texnikwn, gamw to
>feleki ths salamantras mou... San organwmeno sunolo einai kati POLU
>SUGKEKRIMENO re talaipwre. Oxi kati geniko.
>
>
Einai aporias aksio pws me deikth efyias -10000000000 exeis epizhsei kai
mporeis
na grafeis ayto to gramma. Apo pote BRE PANIBLAKA to SYGKEKRIMENO
einai to ANTIQETO TOU GENIKOU????
To antiqeto tou GENIKOU EINAI TO EIDIKO.
Kati mporei na einai poly sygkekrimeno, opws px to linear regression alla
EINAI TOSO GENIKO POY EFARMOZETAI KAI STHN EPISTHMH kai
STHN KOINWNIOLOGIA kai PANTOU.
MATRIX analysis kanoume sthn kbantoxhmeia kai matrix analysis kanoune
kai oi jyxologoi gia na anadeijoun ton G factor.
Idia Meqodologia ALLO PEIRAMA, ALLH QEWRIA.
>Ta agglika sou pasxoun blepw.
Toulaxiston emena den pasxei h mhtrikh mou glwssa sthn opoia kai
kanoume ayth thn syzhthsh!!! :-)))
>> methodologia exei na kanei me thn katagrafh twn gegonotwn.
>> To na anageis thn methodologia sto idio epipedo me to peirama
>
>!!!!! Ti poutses, ti bourtses, ti ksustria, ti mpikouti... takanes ola
>Xartzoulakh imam mpa.ilnti. H me0odologia einai TROPOS dieksagwghs
>peiramatos erme, ermaio ths blakeias sou... Me0odologia kai peirama den
>einai to idio prama, alla sxetizontai kai stena malista. Peirama xwris
>me0odologia DEN ginetai.
Einai profanes oti eisai to ogdoo qayma tou kosmou. Eisai h anqrwpinh
ekdosh ths maimous poy katorqwse teleiws tyxaia na plhktrologhsei
ena keimeno me epifaneiako nohma.
Fusika kai xreiazetai meqodologia gia ena peirama. Egw aplws sou lew apo thn
arxh oti h ousia tou peiramatos einai asxeth me thn meqodologia.
Qa katebasw to epipedo sto fai mhpws kai ta katwrera enstikta sou se katey
qynoun pio swsta. An sou mageireyw to idio fai se allh katsarola
qa einai to idio h allo fai???
>
>Xartzoulakh cheri, anoikse kana ar0ro apo episthmoniko periodiko kai rikse
>mia matia sto Materials & Methods section na deis mpas kai ksestrabw0eis.
>Kai des kai 0ewrhtika ar0ra pouxoune kai dauta Methods section, na deis
>ligoulaki ti lene ki oi episthmones.
>
Exw grayei merika apo dauta ki egw.
>> Oxi bebaia. H gnwsh den exei KAMMIA APOLYTWS SXESH me thn
>> teloiopoihsh ths proswpikothtas. Xekinwntas apo ton Xristo, kai olous
>> tous megalous Mystikistes ayto einai kati poy to fwnazoun oloi edw kai
>> aiwnes. H GNWSH DEN EXEI KAMMIA SXESH ME THN TELEIWSH
>> THS PROSWPIKOTHTAS.
>
>Poioi ta lene auta re xatzatzarh? Ama den exoun gnwsh PWS teleiwnoun thn
>proswpikothta?
>
Me bazeis se allo qema alla: H gnwsh sxetizetai me tis aisqhseis. Opoiadhpote
teleiopoihsh synepagetai apomakrynsh apo twn kosmo twn aisqhsewn
kai tautish me kati poy einai analoiwto kai pera apo tis synexeis metaboles
toy ksomou gyrw mas. H gnwsh kanei fixing to myalo sou se axrhstes
leptomereies. Auta den einai dika mou. Diabase, Agia Grafh, Tao Te Tsing,
To Zen kai h Texnh ths Toksobolias.
To telautaio einai isw kai to pio akatanohto apo olous. Ekei o polykseros
kaqhghths maqainei mono osa einai aparaithta gia na perasei se mia
katastash opoy kaqe gnwsh einai peritth.
Otan eisai kati den tiqetai qema an to gnwrizeis h oxi.
>
>Pame sthn kbantomhxanikh twra:
>
>> Fysika kai apodexomai thn Kopegxagh. Poio to problhma ??
>
>Me bash poia krithria thn apodexesai? Epeidh s' aresoun oi Danezes? 'H
>exeis Prwtopapiko episthmologiko krithrio gia na thn dialekseis?
>
H Ermhnneia ths Kopegxaghs basizetai sta peiramata kai einai h monh
( oi teleutaies ekdoseis ths) pou ekshgei to EPR experiment.
O parathrhths kai to antikeimeno ths parathrhshs einai ws ena baqmo
tautismena.
Etsi sto EPR experiment ta dyo swmatidia mono fainomenika
briskontai se apostash. Ousiastika einai mia ontothta poy diaxwrizetai
mono logw ths dikhs mas epembashs.
>
>> DEN tiqetai problhma aytogkol. To "paradokso" exei ekshghqei ikanopoihtika,
>> kai malista me poly aplo tropo. Osoi endiaferontai as diabasoun
>> to biblio
>>
>> The Dancing Wu Li Masters : An Overview of the New
>> Physics ~
>
>Paparia exei ekshgh0ei Xartzoulakh. Alla afou o tropos einai tooooooso
>aplos, giati den mas xarizeis thn ekshghsh pou exeis brei stous
>Xoreutarades Bou-Lh?? (a re Prwtopapa, ki egw pou diabaza Fon Nwhman gia
>na katalabw kbantomhxanikh xwris na kserw gia tous Xoreutarades hmouna
>malakas me perikefalaia. Nasai kala re Xartz me thn bibliografia sou na
>poume)
>
H HLHQIOTHTA SOU SE OLO THS TO MEGALEIO. Krineis ena biblio
xwris na to diabaseis. Oi xoreytarades einai akribws o Bohr, o Ainstain, O
Nwyman,
O de Broglie ktl. To biblio ekshgei me poly kaqaro tropo tis diafores
ermhneies ths kbantikhs qewrias. Alla esy bebaia krineis apo ton titlo.
Ayto qa pei morfwsh.
paireterw bibliografia - poy abfibalw an qa thn katalabeis akoma kai an thn
diabaseis:
------------
On the Interpretation and Philosophical
Foundation of Quantum Mechanics
Anton Zeilinger
Quantum non-locality, as it is expressed most strongly in the EPR
situation, then, in my
opinion is a consequence of the points just mentioned, if one grants that
the quantum
phenomena can extend over any distance. Consider for example the case of
the spin
measurement of two correlated particles. Before the measurement it is
fundamentally
impossible to assign any spin direction to the two particles involved. The
experimentalists can then decide directly for one particle along which
direction it can
achieve a definite value by just orienting his measurement apparatus along
that direction.
Doing that he also defines the reality of the spin for the other particle,
if we accept the
Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen definition of an element of reality[34]. Yet we
note again that
the observer has no influence on whether the spin will be found to be
parallel or
antiparallel to the direction chosen. That is, again, he has no quantifying
influence on
Nature.
It is very highly likely that the new paradigm will contain holistic
aspects. This follows
in the most direct way from the fact, that in the Copenhagen interpretation
it is
impossible to dissect a quantum phenomenon into its parts. This may be
expressed by
saying that the preparation of a quantum system, its evolution and its
observation, form
one whole entity which, following both Bohr and Wheeler, we call the quantum
phenomenon. Holistic aspects also follow from the fact that in a
multi-particle-system it
is not possible, not even for perfect correlations, to pre-assign
properties to the
individual members of the ensembles[35]. Such properties can only be
assigned in the
specific context of the whole experimental setup for all particles
together. Then, in any
case, they show up only in the correlations. This, I suggest, is another
beautiful
corroboration of Bohr's point of view[36].
[34]A. Einstein, B. Podolsky and N. Rosen, "Can the Quantum-Mechanical
Description
of Physical Reality be Considered Complete?" Phys. Rev. 47 (1935) 777.
[35]D.M. Greenberger, M.A. Horne and A. Zeilinger, Phys.Today (August 1993)
22.
[36]N. Bohr, "Can the Quantum-Mechanical Description of Physical Reality be
Considered Complete?" Phys.Rev. 48 (1935) 696.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
Ta sxolia tou Petropoulou gia to peirama tou Miler einai arketa.
H apanthsh sou einai bebaia gia gelia, alla poy na to katalabeis.
>
>> Gi' ayto yparxei allhloelegxos.
>
>Mesa apo tis koinwnikopolitikes diadikasies tou ka0e tomea...
To na epanalabei kapoios ena yeytiko peirama kai na me bgalei skarto
den nomizw oti einai koinwnikopolitikh diadikasia.
Telos pantwn
>> To prtwto kanoni mporei na ftiaxthke peirmatika alla enas pyraylos, h
>> o ypologisths poy xrhsimopoieis, h to farmako poy qa pareis otan
arrwsthseis
>> h to faghto poy trws exoun paraxqei giati kapoia eksypna paidakia exoun
>> xrhsimopoihsei to myalo toys piqarxhmena me basei kapoies arxes poy
>> epitrepoun
>> thn systhmatikoterh paragwgh gnwshs.
>
>Swsta ola auta, alla na sumplhrwsw oti gia na ftiax0oun auta pou les egine
>KAI peiramatikh douleia gia na enarmonistei h 0ewria kai h praktikh. Den
>egine epifoithsh sta eksupna muala kai doulepsane ta pramata sthn praksh
>ws dia mageias.
>
>
Sumfwnw edw.
>> Ti na ksemperdeyoume?? Esy den qeleis na paradexteis oti kan yparxei.
>> Egw sou lew oti 300000 xhmikoi panw ston planhth (gia na milhsw gia ton
>> tomea mou) paragoun basika ta panta basizomenoi se ena poly mikro ariqmo
>> arxwn kai experimental setups kai esy agron hgorazeis
>
>Kai sou epanalambanw oti les blakeies. O mikros ari0mos arxwn kai setups
>erxetai me muriades me0odologies (anoikse kai kana ar0ro tou tomea sou)
>gia na ftiax0oun ta muriades pro.ionta.
>
Kaneis LAQOS. Ston klado mou h Meqodologia EPETAI.
Paradeigma. Qelw na sxediasw ena katalyth. Kserw thn antidrash kai
epeidh eimai eksypno paidi - oxi egw alla genika- apofasizw pia metalla
qa dokimasw. Kaqe metallo exei alles idiothtes. Epomenw gia kaqe metallo
prepei na anaptyksw diaforetikh meqodologia gia na to entaksw sthn gkama
twn dynatothtwn mou. Otan h meqodologia teleiopoihqei tote h pragmatikh
episthmonikh douleia arxizei me to peirama poy qa apodeiksei h oxi thn
katallhlothta h oxi enos katalyth.
Me alla logia an ekshghsw se kapoious thn domh tou atomou kai kapoies alles
basikes arxes se syndiasmo me pente-deka peiramata se 100 xronia mporw na
exw olh thn xhmeia jana.
>
>> EINAI KAI H MONH PRAGMATIKOTHTA. OLA TA ALLA MPOREI NA EINAI
>> ENA ONEIRO VIRTUAL REALITY. Pws mporeis na me peiseis diaforetika????
>> Gwnso alyto filosofiko problhma.
>
>Opws 0a soulege ki o Prwtopapas, phda apo to mpalkoni sou. Oi
>anti-realistes toxoune lusei pro pollou. To problhma einai gia tous
>idealistes (kai ta diduma adelfakia tous, tous realistes) filosofous.
>Sthn praksh den uparxei kanena problhma.
>
Oxi den phdaw dioti ws episthmonas anagnwrizw oti yparxei piqanothta na
einai o kosmos alhqinos kai oxi virtual reality. Egw den sou eipa oti einai,
sou eipa aplws oti den mporeis na mou apodeikseis to antiqeto.
>> Ta exw grayei ayta prin apo esena!!!
>
>Katoura kai ligo re Xartzoulakh. Pane 9-10 xronia apo tote pou ksefwnhsa
>thn biomhxanikh gewrgia sto kafeneio.
>
To eixan kanei poly alloi prin apo esena.
Egw problepsa thn ptwsh ths prwh ESSD sta dwdeka, to 1989. Oli me elegan
trello :-)))) !!!!
>
>Xartzoulakh, paralhreis. En genei sumfwnw en merei, alla auto anoigei
Kai en genei kai en merei, pwpw xrhsh ths glwsssas!!
Dhlwnw entypwsiasmenos :-)))
>allh koubenta, gia thn ektimhsh ths episthmhs. Alla sou ekshghse o
>Prwtopapas gia to ti koubentiazoume twra. Euxomai na katalabes.
>
Eseis ta fairnete sthn epifaneia ta paraplhsia qemata kai meta diamartyreste.
>
>giannhs
>
>
Basilhs Highlander
Kostovassilis Vassilis
> Lida Anestidou wrote:
> >> ps gia tous peri to sikago: 10 - 20 septebriou: nick cave kai massive
attack
> >nai, eixes den eixes thn peta3es th bomba, twra, Pano kai na klaime emeis oi
> >regges.
> eseis omws exete ntopoia asteria, kati gia shania twain epiasa, emeis edw
> panw pou tetoia tyxh
Ntopio asteri h Shania? Mpaaa... Kanadeza einai. Mh stenaxwriesai omws
Pano. 8a dwsei synaylia kai sta merh sas. Na pas, na pas.
Vassilis
Yiannis Koutalos
> Gia na sou apodeiksw loipon oti h MEQODOLOGIA DEN EXEI SHMASIA
> qa sou dwsw ena xeiropiasto paradeigma gia na teleiwnoume telos pantwn
> me to qema.
>
> To prwto einai to agaphmeno sou EPR experiment.
> DYO MEQODOLOGIES:
> 1) Thought EXPERIMENT
> 2) Practical EXPERIMENT
>
>
>
> Kai ta dyo symfwnoun. Katse ston pagko sou twra, kai mhn mou peis oti
> den einai diaforetikes meqodologies.
????? Xartzoulakh, h thlepa0eia mou den douleuei kala shmera. Gia steile
me enan paradosiako tropo to epixeirhma sou. Kati tis leipei apo ta
parapanw, den nomizeis?
> Fusika kai xreiazetai meqodologia gia ena peirama. Egw aplws sou lew apo thn
> arxh oti h ousia tou peiramatos einai asxeth me thn meqodologia.
Parathrw mia argh men, safh de upoxwrhsh apo to arxiko
>> >> H meqodologia den exei kammia sxesh me to peirama. Sto bebaiwnw.
Twra les oti nai men xreiazetai h me0odologia, alla einai epousiwdhs.
pame sthn mageirikh loipon:
> Qa katebasw to epipedo sto fai mhpws kai ta katwrera enstikta sou se katey
> qynoun pio swsta. An sou mageireyw to idio fai se allh katsarola
> qa einai to idio h allo fai???
Parelauneis thn mageirikh asxetosunh sou. Einai pasifanestato oti den
exeis prospa0hsei na ftiakseis soufle. Alla as parameinoume sta 0nhta
faghta: ama ftiakseis ke.ik se thgani anti gia to katallhlo tapsi nomizeis
oti 0a bgei to idio? Ama xrhsimopoieis hlektrika matia anti gia gkaziou
nomizeis oti ta faghta bgainoun idia? Se afhnw ston MakNtonalnt sou
0libere Xartzoulakh.
> >Xartzoulakh cheri, anoikse kana ar0ro apo episthmoniko periodiko kai rikse
> >mia matia sto Materials & Methods section na deis mpas kai ksestrabw0eis.
> >Kai des kai 0ewrhtika ar0ra pouxoune kai dauta Methods section, na deis
> >ligoulaki ti lene ki oi episthmones.
>
> Exw grayei merika apo dauta ki egw.
Epetrepse mou na amfiballw.
> Me bazeis se allo qema alla: H gnwsh sxetizetai me tis aisqhseis. Opoiadhpote
> teleiopoihsh synepagetai apomakrynsh apo twn kosmo twn aisqhsewn
> kai tautish me kati poy einai analoiwto kai pera apo tis synexeis metaboles
> toy ksomou gyrw mas.
Diabase ligh bouddistikh psuxologia na deis gia poses ais0hseis milane
kai ton rolo tous sthn teleiwsh kai meta arxizeis na kolumpas sta nera ths
giogkas.
> H gnwsh kanei fixing to myalo sou se axrhstes
> leptomereies. Auta den einai dika mou. Diabase, Agia Grafh, Tao Te Tsing,
> To Zen kai h Texnh ths Toksobolias.
Den xreiazetai, diabazw tis ekla.ikeuseis tous (akou to Zen kai h Texnh
ths Toksobolias gia bibliografia Zen) sto Cosmopolitan.
> To telautaio einai isw kai to pio akatanohto apo olous. Ekei o polykseros
> kaqhghths maqainei mono osa einai aparaithta gia na perasei se mia
> katastash opoy kaqe gnwsh einai peritth.
> Otan eisai kati den tiqetai qema an to gnwrizeis h oxi.
Pesta auta sth salamantra mou pou 0elei zartieres san autes pou foraei o
Prwtopapas (ki einai panakribes pana0ema tes)
> H Ermhnneia ths Kopegxaghs basizetai sta peiramata kai einai h monh
> ( oi teleutaies ekdoseis ths) pou ekshgei to EPR experiment.
Gia to me poia krithria epelekses thn ermhneia ths Kopegxaghs, anti na thn
ftuseis opws o A.insta.in, kaneis thn agriopapia omws.
(egw proteinw allh ermhneia Xartzoulakh, oti uparxoune hidden variables
pou den tis exoune brei akoma oi fusikoi)
> O parathrhths kai to antikeimeno ths parathrhshs einai ws ena baqmo
> tautismena.
Ntoup! (parta Prwtopapa kai kanta lemonokoupa) Shmera ais0anomai polu
fwtonio na poume. Esu re Xartzoulakh pws to blepeis to 0ema apo ton
Plouto pou eisai? San pozitronio?
> Etsi sto EPR experiment ta dyo swmatidia mono fainomenika
> briskontai se apostash.
!!!!! W, nai, h mezoura pou metraei thn apostash twn anixneutwn exei
fainomeniko mhkos mono. Manamanaaaaaaa...
> Ousiastika einai mia ontothta poy diaxwrizetai
> mono logw ths dikhs mas epembashs.
Nai, kserw, o kosmos einai ena ENA, ena OLO, h pragmatikothta einai mia
kai to samali einai mesh ki oxi gwnia. Auta na ta peis ston Prwtopapa.
Ante kai to parakatw margaritari san epixeirhma uper ths ermhneias ths
Kopegxaghs:
> Foundation of Quantum Mechanics
>
> Anton Zeilinger
>
>
> Quantum non-locality, as it is expressed most strongly in the EPR
> situation, then, in my
> opinion is a consequence of the points just mentioned, if one grants that
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> the quantum
> phenomena can extend over any distance. Consider for example the case of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Na ta diabazoume auta pou stelnoume Xartzoulakh. Eipame, blakas eisai,
alla na mhn to diafhmizeis ki olas. (akou ANY distance, apo dw ws ton
Plouto na poume?)
> Ta sxolia tou Petropoulou gia to peirama tou Miler einai arketa.
> H apanthsh sou einai bebaia gia gelia, alla poy na to katalabeis.
Den exw apanthsei akomh w Megiste! Blepw oti pera apo tis thlepa0htikes
exeis kai profhtikes ikanothtes.
> >Mesa apo tis koinwnikopolitikes diadikasies tou ka0e tomea...
>
> To na epanalabei kapoios ena yeytiko peirama kai na me bgalei skarto
> den nomizw oti einai koinwnikopolitikh diadikasia.
> Telos pantwn
Oxi telos pantwn. Poios apofasizei poio peirama einai pseutiko kai poio
oxi? Autos einai o kompos.
> >Kai sou epanalambanw oti les blakeies. O mikros ari0mos arxwn kai setups
> >erxetai me muriades me0odologies (anoikse kai kana ar0ro tou tomea sou)
> >gia na ftiax0oun ta muriades pro.ionta.
> >
>
> Kaneis LAQOS. Ston klado mou h Meqodologia EPETAI.
> Paradeigma. Qelw na sxediasw ena katalyth. Kserw thn antidrash kai
> epeidh eimai eksypno paidi - oxi egw alla genika- apofasizw pia metalla
> qa dokimasw. Kaqe metallo exei alles idiothtes. Epomenw gia kaqe metallo
> prepei na anaptyksw diaforetikh meqodologia gia na to entaksw sthn gkama
> twn dynatothtwn mou. Otan h meqodologia teleiopoihqei tote h pragmatikh
> episthmonikh douleia arxizei me to peirama poy qa apodeiksei h oxi thn
> katallhlothta h oxi enos katalyth.
Eisai paniblakas. O tselementes me ton opoio 0a sxediaseis ton kataluth
sou xhmike ths sumforas basizetai se peiramata pou exoune ginei mesa apo
sugkekrimenes me0odologies. H kainourgia me0odologia (kai mh mou zalizeis
ta hlektronia me me0odo-me0odologia, sou egrapsa pws xrhsimopoiw tis
lekseis) pou 0a anaptukseis sthrizetai, perilambanei, pro.upo0etei tis
prohgoumenes.
> Oxi den phdaw dioti ws episthmonas anagnwrizw oti yparxei piqanothta na
> einai o kosmos alhqinos kai oxi virtual reality.
!!!!! Kala, sou ekshghse o Prwtopapas gia authn thn "pi0anothta"
(Prwtopapa, thn propaganda sou na thn baleis ekei pou ksereis pou tolmas
na apokaleis autes tis mpourdes koutalikoteres apo auta pou grafw).
giannhs
Yiannis Koutalos
> Prose3e me: egw pou spoudazw edw xamou, apoktw kammia gnwsh?
(nomiza oti apla trws ta lefta tou mpampa sou, alla telos pantwn)
> kai an nai, thn apoktw
> mesa apo to episthmoniko susthma gnwshs?
Fusika. Auto pou sou dinei to certification oti exeis ma0ei tous
koinwnikous kanones tou epaggelmatikou tomea ston opoio spoudazeis, kai o
opoios meleta thn pragmatikothta me sugkekrimenes me0odologies. To
certification einai endeiksh oti exeis labei to aparaithto koinwniko
kontisioningk gia na 0ewreisai melos tou epaggelmatos.
> oso hmouna sxoleio, poio susthma gnwshs me ekpaideue?
Eksartatai apo to sxoleio kai to koinwniko kontisioningk pou pernage to
sugkekrimeno ekpaideutiko susthma.
> otan paw sto barnes
> kai noble,
> h sto amazon bre paidi mou, kai agorazw biblia poikilwn endiaferontwn (lege me
> egkuklopaidikh morfwsh- miso lepto na parw pagakia, etsi parhggeile o
> xeirourgos),
> ti susthma gnwshs e3uphretw?
Edw ta pramata mplekoun, ka0oti ta bibliopwleia proballoun apo ta biblia
tou tuxontos Sa.i Mplampla (pou prow0oun apo giogka mexri thn latreia kai
thn oikonomikh eumareia tou suggrafea) mexri ta biblia tou stul "Higher
Superstition" (pou prow0oun enan episthmonismo tou kerata). To koino
xarakthristiko twn bilbiopwleiwn einai h pro.upo0esh grafhs kai anagnwshs,
polu sugkekrimenes gnwseis dhladhs.
> o xristianismos einai kai autos systhma gnwshs?
Fusika.
> h oikokurikh?
Nai. (uparxei kai bibliografia pou susthmatopoiei ti prepei na kserei h
kalh noikokura, htoi uparxei 0ewrhtikh organwsh -- bebaia, kallista mporei
kapoios/a na kanei oikokurikh sthn praksh xwris th 0ewrhtikh organwsh,
opote h oikokurikh perilambanei praktikes gnwseis, alla den apotelei
organwmeno susthma)
> h mageirikh?
Nai (me tis antistoixes epifulakseis opws kai gia thn oikokurikh).
> kai telika, giatio exei tosh shmasia h barygdouph ta3inomhsh ths gnwshs se
> systhmata?
H susthmatopoihsh pernaei sugkekrimenes aksies kai skopous kai
kateu0unseis mesa apo thn organwsh kai to kanalizarisma ths gnwshs. Eid'
alliws, den exei kai polu megalh shmasia. Sthn koubenta me ton Prwtopapa,
o susthmatikos xarakthras ths episthmonikhs gnwshs einai to aggouri ths
eridos. O 0anashs leei oti o xarakthras autos phgazei apo episthmologika
krithria, egw lew oti phgazei apo koinwnika (alla den ta exw 0iksei sthn
sugkekrimenh koubenta). Me thn eksaleipsh tou ideologikou propetasmatos
ths episthmologias (gourounia, skotadistes, grafeiokrates), anoigei o
dromos gia thn kritikh ektimhsh ths episthmhs me bash ta koinwnika
krithria ths susthmatopoihshs ths. To shmantiko einai oti h episthmonikh
gnwsh mporei na susthmatopoih0ei diaforetika, prama pou apotelei ana0ema
stous skotadistes PrwtopaparoPetropoulous (gia tous apoprosanatolismenous
mustikistikopa0eis or0ologistes tupou Xartzoulakh den suzhtame).
giannhs
UG: Gia thn mageirikh, oi kotsanes den einai dikes mou, alla tou
asugkritou Xartzoulakh. Autos egrapse oti to mageiriko skeuos sto opoio
ftiaxneis to fa.i den exei shmasia. Oso gia to gkazi versous reuma,
mpesamel kai kremes bouturou den ftiaxnontai eukola sto hlektriko (kai gia
thn geustikothta sumfwneis ki esu). Auta pesta ston Xartzoulakh mpas
kai parei muroudia apo mageirikh.
Yola Georgiadou
kai diabazw me endiaferon ta Principia Koutalica:
>Anarwtietai h Lhda:
(snip)
>> h oikokurikh?
>Nai. (uparxei kai bibliografia pou susthmatopoiei ti prepei na kserei h
>kalh noikokura, htoi uparxei 0ewrhtikh organwsh -- bebaia, kallista mporei
>kapoios/a na kanei oikokurikh sthn praksh xwris th 0ewrhtikh organwsh,
>opote h oikokurikh perilambanei praktikes gnwseis, alla den apotelei
>organwmeno susthma)
Iwannh, gia thn Poimenikh pws topo0eteisai ws Koutalos? Einai h Poimenikh
(kai sugkekrimena h eidikothta ths Nomadikhs) susthma gnwshs?
Y
Lida Anestidou
> > kai an nai, thn apoktw
> > mesa apo to episthmoniko susthma gnwshs?
>
> Fusika. Auto pou sou dinei to certification oti exeis ma0ei tous
> koinwnikous kanones tou epaggelmatikou tomea ston opoio spoudazeis, kai o
> opoios meleta thn pragmatikothta me sugkekrimenes me0odologies. To
> certification einai endeiksh oti exeis labei to aparaithto koinwniko
> kontisioningk gia na 0ewreisai melos tou epaggelmatos.
dhladh, sumfwna me ayta pou les, to susthma gnwshs ka8orizetai me bash to
epaggelma.
Htis, ta didaktorika -kat'ese- den exoun omoiothtes meta3u tous. Enas didaktwr
ths
xhmeias exei ekpaideutei me allo susthma gnwshs apo enan ths filosofias.
Malista. An
einai etsi, tote me bash poia krithria sumfwnhsane kapote oi panepisthmiakoi oti
mia
sugkekrimenh diadikasia (h opoia kat'ese einai 3exwrh se ka8e epaggelma) 8a
apolhgei
ston titlo tou doktwra? pws ginetai kai bgainoume oloi doktwres, anti na exei o
ka8eis diaforetiko titlo, analoga me th sxolh pou bgazei? pws kataferan oi
akadhmaikoi na 3exwrisoun to antikeimeno ths meleths apo ton *tropo* ths
meleths?
(lew, twra egw, bazw kai ena disclaimer na leei oti exw antilhpsh nhpiagwgeiou
kai
zhtw apanthsh se apla ellhnika)
>
>
> > oso hmouna sxoleio, poio susthma gnwshs me ekpaideue?
>
> Eksartatai apo to sxoleio kai to koinwniko kontisioningk pou pernage to
> sugkekrimeno ekpaideutiko susthma.
malista.dhladh, egw ekpaideuthka me to susthma gnwshs tou kollegiou, esu me tou
dhmosiou katw petralwnwn kai ou tw ka8'e3hs. kai tote, pws ginetai kai dinoume
tis
idies e3etaseis gia na mpoume sto panepisthmio? pws ginetai kai bgazei to
upourgeio
paideias ka8e xrono koino didaktiko programma me bash oxi to sxoleio, alla to
etos
spoudhs? (mporei na rwtaw blakeies, alla apanthse mou parakalw, exw upar3iakes
agwnies pleon)
> To koino
> xarakthristiko twn bilbiopwleiwn einai h pro.upo0esh grafhs kai anagnwshs,
> polu sugkekrimenes gnwseis dhladhs.
uparxei kapoios koinwnikos xwros (douleia, odhghsh, mageirikh, erwtas, sxoleio,
kolumpi, oti 8es) o opoios den proupo8etei grafh kai anagnwsh? den einai h grafh
kai
h anagnwsh pagkosmia sta8era stoixeia epikoinwnias?
> > h oikokurikh?
>
> Nai. (uparxei kai bibliografia pou susthmatopoiei ti prepei na kserei h
> kalh noikokura, htoi uparxei 0ewrhtikh organwsh -- bebaia, kallista mporei
> kapoios/a na kanei oikokurikh sthn praksh xwris th 0ewrhtikh organwsh,
> opote h oikokurikh perilambanei praktikes gnwseis, alla den apotelei
> organwmeno susthma)
>
> > h mageirikh?
>
> Nai (me tis antistoixes epifulakseis opws kai gia thn oikokurikh).
kapoios o opoios einai autodidaktos se mia glwssa exei praktikh gnwsh ths
glwssas
auths alla tou diafeugei to organwmeno susthma gnwshs ths glwssas? auto les edw
pera? kai oti an den uparxoun organwmenoi kai taktopoihmenoi kanones
epifulassesai
gia th xrhsimothta ths gnwshs pou parexei auto to systhma?
> H susthmatopoihsh pernaei sugkekrimenes aksies kai skopous kai
> kateu0unseis mesa apo thn organwsh kai to kanalizarisma ths gnwshs. Eid'
> alliws, den exei kai polu megalh shmasia.
me anakoufises twra dioti eixa troma3ei. twra blepw pws eimaste oloi
diaforetikoi
oxi mono xarin twn gonidiwn kai tou xarakthra mas, alla kai xarin twn susthmatwn
gnwshs sta opoia ekte8hkame kai ekti8omaste ka8hmerina. mhpws (koubenta na
ginetai)
einai auth sou h apopsh ligoulaki elitistikh? mhpws odhgei se orio8ethseis
analoga
me to poio susthma tygxanei perissoterhs ektimhsews?
> Sthn koubenta me ton Prwtopapa,
> o susthmatikos xarakthras ths episthmonikhs gnwshs einai to aggouri ths
> eridos. O 0anashs leei oti o xarakthras autos phgazei apo episthmologika
> krithria, egw lew oti phgazei apo koinwnika (alla den ta exw 0iksei sthn
> sugkekrimenh koubenta).
sugnwmh, alla efoson kata tis dhlwseis sou, o ka8eis apo tous duo sas exei
ekte8ei
se alla susthmata gnwshs, den nomizw oti uparxei koino shmeio anaforas panw sto
opoio na ginetai suzhthsh. ara, esu prepei na koubentiazeis monaxa me biologous,
o
petropoulos me ma8hmatikous, h liza me arxaiologous kai gw me kthniatrous gia na
exoume koinh afethria, an mh ti allo.
> Me thn eksaleipsh tou ideologikou propetasmatos
> ths episthmologias (gourounia, skotadistes, grafeiokrates), anoigei o
> dromos gia thn kritikh ektimhsh ths episthmhs me bash ta koinwnika
> krithria ths susthmatopoihshs ths. To shmantiko einai oti h episthmonikh
> gnwsh mporei na susthmatopoih0ei diaforetika, prama pou apotelei ana0ema
> stous skotadistes PrwtopaparoPetropoulous (gia tous apoprosanatolismenous
> mustikistikopa0eis or0ologistes tupou Xartzoulakh den suzhtame).
telika to problhma sou/sas pou einai?na sumfwnhsete oti h episthmh einai susthma
gnwshs?
na piasete to susthma auto kai na to kommatiasete eis ta e3 wn sunete8h?
na to 3anasunarmologhsete me allo tropo?
na kanete kritikh sthn episthmh?
telika, h olh suzhthsh prokuptei akribws epeidh blepeis thn episthmh ws
perigegramenh ontothta (egw toulaxiston auto katalaba) kai ths arneisai osa
stoixeia
"au8ormhtismou" exei.
> giannhs
>
> UG: Gia thn mageirikh, oi kotsanes den einai dikes mou, alla tou
> asugkritou Xartzoulakh. Autos egrapse oti to mageiriko skeuos sto opoio
> ftiaxneis to fa.i den exei shmasia.
o xartz eipe "An sou mageireyw to idio fai se allh katsarolaqa einai to idio h
allo
fai???".esu eipes "Alla as parameinoume sta 0nhtafaghta: ama ftiakseis ke.ik se
thgani anti gia to katallhlo tapsi nomizeis
oti 0a bgei to idio? Ama xrhsimopoieis hlektrika matia anti gia gkaziou
nomizeis oti ta faghta bgainoun idia? "
esu, ws anta3ios karras, metefrases to "allh katsarola" se allo eidos skeuous
gia na
kaneis ena anousio kai axrhsto point. Faoul, loipon, kai h mpalla stous
apenanti.
ean den mporeis na suneidhtopoihseis poso kai pou diaferoun ta parapanw
statements,
na apomakryn8eis taxista sta apoduthria.
Lhda
Yiannis Koutalos
Giola:
> Iwannh, gia thn Poimenikh pws topo0eteisai ws Koutalos? Einai h Poimenikh
> (kai sugkekrimena h eidikothta ths Nomadikhs) susthma gnwshs?
Auta na prosexeis pws ta les, giati tou Prwtopapa tour0e tamplas. Akouse
Nomadikh, Nomadology, tour0e suneirmos Ntelez-Gkatarri, fragkoi, galloi
imposture intellectuels, kai ntoup, parton katw... Krata to Poimenikh san
sun0hmatiko kai pame.
To shmantiko ths Poimenikhs (opws psilolene ki oi -- mh diabazeis
Prwtopapa, einai XXX -- Deleuze-Guattari) einai o deterritorialized
(ellhniko bre paidia?) xarakthras ths. O/H nomas poimhn den exei mia
bash, mia oikia, ena strathgiko kentro, mia ORIO0ETHMENH perioxh, sthn
opoia na zei kai h opoia na tou/ths diamorfwnei th zwh. Tetoia bash einai
aparaithth gia th susthmatopoihsh ths gnwshs (an kai gnwsh mporei bebaia
na uparxei mh susthmatopoihmenh). Auth h susthmatopoihsh exei men ta kala
ths (me thn gewrgia/episthmh trwme kai krouasan), alla tautoxrona
katoikidiopoiei (domesticates) thn an0rwpinh uparksh (h bash, h katoikia,
0elei prosoxh kai frontida, ka0hlwnei ton an0rwpo), kai orio0etei tous
orizontes ths. H poimenikh den exei tetoia problhmata, tetoia oria,
tetoia kloubia, kai den exei bebaia kai susthmatopoihmenh gnwsh. Ama
susthmatopoih0ei den einai pleon poimenikh. To an kapoios/a katalhgei
agroths 'h nomas poimhn einai 0ema epiloghs bebaia. Proswpika, san
agroths, omologw oti psilozhleuw tous diaforous poimenes. Poios kserei,
isws ki egw mia mera na parathsw ta xwrafia, na kopsw ta krouasan kai
tis mpagketes, na parw mia flogera kai na akolou0hsw ta probata kai tis
gkamhles ;-).
giannhs
UG: H oikokurikh pro.upo0etei kapoia oikia, katoikia, Giola nthar. Pws
paei h foithsh?
Yiannis Koutalos
> dhladh, sumfwna me ayta pou les, to susthma gnwshs ka8orizetai me bash to
> epaggelma.
> Htis, ta didaktorika -kat'ese- den exoun omoiothtes meta3u tous.
Kai omoiothtes exoun kai diafores. Oi me0odologies pou ma0ainei
kapoios/a sta pitsinti einai diaforetikes. Eneka ths epaggelmatopoihshs
omws (kai twn koinwn xarakthristikwn twn epaggelmatwn) uparxoune kai
omoiothtes. Alla auto posws afora thn episthmologikh koubenta.
> Enas didaktwr ths
> xhmeias exei ekpaideutei me allo susthma gnwshs apo enan ths filosofias.
Malista. An
> einai etsi, tote me bash poia krithria sumfwnhsane kapote oi panepisthmiakoi
oti mia
> sugkekrimenh diadikasia (h opoia kat'ese einai 3exwrh se ka8e epaggelma) 8a
apolhgei
> ston titlo tou doktwra?
Eginan kapoioi koinwnikopolitikoi tzertzeledes, oi opoioi kai exoune
istorika perigrafei, kapoioi grapsane katw ta krithria pou ekfrazane to
teliko consensus, kai e, apo kei kai pera pame kai proxwrame, alla kai ta
krithria ekselissontai, anelissontai, 'h pane kai sto diaolo (exw dei na
dinontai kati pitsinti, allo prama), klp, klp...
> pws ginetai kai bgainoume oloi doktwres, anti na exei o
> ka8eis diaforetiko titlo, analoga me th sxolh pou bgazei?
Huh?? Ma to pitsinti grafei pentaka0ara th sxolh kai gia thn akribeia to
programma spoudwn (pitsinti sto TADE).
> pws kataferan oi
> akadhmaikoi na 3exwrisoun to antikeimeno ths meleths apo ton *tropo* ths
meleths?
To antikeimeno ths meleths (ora TADE parapanw) erxetai me sugkekrimeno
curriculum -- kai egkekrimeno malista apo diafores epitropes -- pou fusika
skopo exei thn metadwsh ths me0odologias. Antikeimeno kai me0odologia
einai tautoshma sthn ekpaideush. H sugxhsh sou ofeiletai sto peplo tou
skotadismou pou exoun aplwsei oi diaforoi Prwtopapes. Ligh epafh me thn
ekpaideutikh pragmatikothta deixnei tis Prwtopapikes 0eseis gia auto pou
einai: paparies.
> malista.dhladh, egw ekpaideuthka me to susthma gnwshs tou kollegiou, esu
> me tou
> dhmosiou katw petralwnwn kai ou tw ka8'e3hs. kai tote, pws ginetai kai dinoume
tis
> idies e3etaseis gia na mpoume sto panepisthmio?
Ta parapona sas ston upourgo paideias kai 0rhskeumatwn.
> pws ginetai kai bgazei to upourgeio
> paideias ka8e xrono koino didaktiko programma me bash oxi to sxoleio, alla
> to etos spoudhs?
To upourgeio paideias endiaferetai na dwsei genikes odhgies pros
nautilomenous, daskalous, klp, gia to to anamenomeno kontisioningk ana
etos. Thn kubernhsh thn endiaferei (kai auto den to katakrinw mpah de
goueh) h omoiogeneia tou kontisioningk. An mporei na allaksei to
programma spoudwn ana perioxh gia na enarmonistoun oloi/es sto idio geniko
kontisioningk, h kubernhsh 0a tokane. Alla kati tetoio einai fobera
poluploko kai polueksodo (oute sthn OUZA den ginetai).
> uparxei kapoios koinwnikos xwros (douleia, odhghsh, mageirikh, erwtas,
sxoleio,
> kolumpi, oti 8es) o opoios den proupo8etei grafh kai anagnwsh? den einai h
grafh kai
> h anagnwsh pagkosmia sta8era stoixeia epikoinwnias?
Oxi bebaia. Ta xw ksanagrapsei gia proforikes koultoures (Prwtopapa, tis
parel0ouses glwssologikes arloumpes sou tis phre to mati mou, alla ekana
ton psofio korio -- den peirazei, 0a sou psi0urisw duo-treis telitses twn
Barlpiri se kapoia allh eukairia.)
> kapoios o opoios einai autodidaktos se mia glwssa exei praktikh gnwsh ths
glwssas
> auths alla tou diafeugei to organwmeno susthma gnwshs ths glwssas? auto les
edw
> pera? kai oti an den uparxoun organwmenoi kai taktopoihmenoi kanones
epifulassesai
> gia th xrhsimothta ths gnwshs pou parexei auto to systhma?
Den epifulassomai ka0olou. H xrhsimothta ths gnwshs den exei na kanei
me thn susthmatopoihsh ths. H susthmatopoihsh exei na kanei me thn
metadwsimothta ths gnwshs, thn epikoinwnia kai me thn dunatothta
epaggelmatikopoihshs. Me ton Prwtopapa koubentiazoume gia episthmh pou
einai susthmatopoihmenh gnwsh, eks ou kai h emfash.
> me anakoufises twra dioti eixa troma3ei. twra blepw pws eimaste oloi
diaforetikoi
> oxi mono xarin twn gonidiwn kai tou xarakthra mas, alla kai xarin twn
> susthmatwn gnwshs sta opoia ekte8hkame kai ekti8omaste ka8hmerina. mhpws
> (koubenta na ginetai) einai auth sou h apopsh ligoulaki elitistikh?
> mhpws odhgei se orio8ethseis analoga me to poio susthma tygxanei
> perissoterhs ektimhsews?
H ektimhsh ths opoias gnwshs einai epilogh tou ka0enos. Oi elitistes
kanoune tis epiloges tous kai apla poulane mourh oti oi epiloges tous
einai oi kaluteres. Astous na lene, astous na poun...
> sugnwmh, alla efoson kata tis dhlwseis sou, o ka8eis apo tous duo sas exei
> ekte8ei se alla susthmata gnwshs, den nomizw oti uparxei koino shmeio
> anaforas panw sto opoio na ginetai suzhthsh
Me ton Prwtopapa den suzhtame texnika problhmata tou tomea tou enos kai
tou allou (opote kai 0axes dikio), alla thn uparksh episthmologikwn
krithriwn gia thn paragwgh ths episthmonikhs gnwshs. Exoume ekte0ei se
paraplhsies bibliografies (sxedon koines) kai krinontas apo thn parousiash
twn apopsewn mou apo Prwtopapa ston Xartzoulakh, o Prwtopapas katalabainei
perifhma ti lew (mersi mpokou 0anasare, oute egw 0a ta elega toso ka0ara
kai ksastera). San prwhn or0ologisths pou brhke to fws tou (0auma sou
lew!) ki egw katalabainw perifhma tis 0eseis tou Prwtopapa.
> telika to problhma sou/sas pou einai?na sumfwnhsete oti h episthmh einai
susthma
> gnwshs?
> na piasete to susthma auto kai na to kommatiasete eis ta e3 wn sunete8h?
> na to 3anasunarmologhsete me allo tropo?
> na kanete kritikh sthn episthmh?
To teleutaio. To zhthma einai to eidos ths kritikhs. Egw lew mpaste
skuloi aleste, o Prwtopapas 0elei na balei kapoious kanones, dhladhs na
shmadepsei thn trapoula kai na periorisei thn kritikh.
> telika, h olh suzhthsh prokuptei akribws epeidh blepeis thn episthmh ws
> perigegramenh ontothta (egw toulaxiston auto katalaba) kai ths arneisai
> osa stoixeia "au8ormhtismou" exei.
Xartzoulakizeis ( --> Koutaloferneis) epikinduna. O Prwtopapas prospa0ei
na uposthriksei oti aneksarthta apo ton au0ormhtismo, klp, klp, uparxoune
kapoia aneksarthta krithria pou epitrepoun ton diaxwrismo ths episthmhs
apo alla gnwstika susthmata kai alles gnwseis genikotera.
> o xartz eipe "An sou mageireyw to idio fai se allh katsarolaqa einai to idio h
allo
> fai???".esu eipes "Alla as parameinoume sta 0nhtafaghta: ama ftiakseis ke.ik
se
> thgani anti gia to katallhlo tapsi nomizeis
> oti 0a bgei to idio? Ama xrhsimopoieis hlektrika matia anti gia gkaziou
> nomizeis oti ta faghta bgainoun idia? "
>
> esu, ws anta3ios karras, metefrases to "allh katsarola" se allo eidos skeuous
gia na
> kaneis ena anousio kai axrhsto point. Faoul, loipon, kai h mpalla stous
apenanti.
> ean den mporeis na suneidhtopoihseis poso kai pou diaferoun ta parapanw
statements,
> na apomakryn8eis taxista sta apoduthria.
Pare mia kitrinh karta gia faoul kai gia boutia oti taxa mou taxa mou
tokana egw. H erwthsh htane to kata poso to faghto 0a meinei to idio an
allakseis ton tropo mageirematos. Ama krathseis ton tropo ligo-polu idio,
e, fusika kai to faghto 0a bgei ligo-polu idio (to paiksimo sto ligo-polu
eksartatai apo to faghto). An den sou kanei to thgani gia na ftiakseis
kehk, xairw polu, sumfwnoume oti o tropos mageirematos einai shmantikos
gia to ti faghto 0a ftiakseis.
O Prwtopapas katalabe perifhma thn tampakiera peri hs o logos, giauto ki
edwse to paradeigma me thn maregka. Prospa0hse bebaia na suskotisei ta
pramata milwntas gia maregka apo krokadia anti gia aspradia. H mageirikh
bebaia den exei 0ewria apo pisw na sou leei poia einai ta krokadia kai
poia ta aspradia (eks ou kai to antikanoniko markarisma tou Prwtopapa,
alla ka0oti katafera na krathsw thn mpalla ekana pws den katalaba kai
sunexisa). Estw pantws oti h mageirikh eixe 0ewria. To 0ema einai tote
PWS 0a kserame poia einai ta aspradia kai poia ta krokadia gia na
ftiaksoume thn maregka (estw oti kseroume poia einai ta auga -- elpizw
na katalabaineis to platos tou aparaithtou gnwstikou upoba0rou). Ena
problhma ekei (mhn pas gia xrwma, giati exw axrwmatopsia, kai 0a
ksanapaiksoume thn koloku0ia). Allo problhma 0atane to ksexwrisma
aspradiwn-krokwn. Fusika ki h 0ewria den leei POIOS einai o katallhlos
tropos. Oute kan o tselementes den to leei. Apla h Xrusa Paradeish
(lege me adviser 'h senior grad student) deixnei prwta ston Prwtopapa
PWS na to kanei, kai meta ka0etai panw apo to kefali tou kai ton
karpazwnei mexri na to kanei "swsta" (opws ma0aineis esu ergasthriakes
texnikes sto pitsinti sou dhladhs). O Prwtopapas afomeiwnei ton tropo
ksexwrismatos kai meta pla0ei enan mu0o oti h paraskeuh maregkas exei
epiteux0ei me th xrhsh episthmologikwn krithriwn. Tis karpazies ths 0eias
Xrusas ths apw0ei sto uposuneidhto tou.
giannhs
Peter PETROPOULOS
> > ka8eis diaforetiko titlo, analoga me th sxolh pou bgazei?
>
> Huh?? Ma to pitsinti grafei pentaka0ara th sxolh kai gia thn akribeia to
> programma spoudwn (pitsinti sto TADE).
To exeis eksakribwsei auto ?
Petros
Yiannis Koutalos
> > Huh?? Ma to pitsinti grafei pentaka0ara th sxolh kai gia thn akribeia to
> > programma spoudwn (pitsinti sto TADE).
>
> To exeis eksakribwsei auto ?
Huh??? Ela mpip-mpip ston topo sou...
Apo ta panepisthmia pou kserw, to pitsinti grafei se ti einai. Ama
koitakseis tis anakoinwseis gia episthmonodouleies, epishs lene se ti
tomea ('h tomeis) to 0eloune to pitsinti 'h to master's 'h to opoiodhpote
certification ekpaideushs. Me alla logia, to ti me0odologies ksereis einai
pou metraei. Upo0etw oti einai genikh praktikh na grafei to pitsinti se
ti einai.
> Petros
giannhs
UG: Petropoule, tsakw 2 fwtografies tou Prwtopapa na koitaei t' astra...
Miso lepto, kati eida twra sth nougia twn zartierwn tou Prwtopapa. Ti
nanai? Oxi, den grafei Victoria's Secret, kati allo einai... Wwwww, ama
ta analusw auta ta sxedia me thn me0odologia tou Eddington, briskw oti h
apoklish tou fwtos apo to baruntiko pedio tou Hliou einai auth pou
problepei h Genikh 0ewria ths Sxetikothtas. W, nai, nai, alh0hs esti h
Genikh Sxetikothta!
Yiannis Koutalos
anagnwrizei to pitsinti, kai to ka0e ptuxio genikotera, se sxesh me ton
tomea tou ptuxiou. Giauto kai zhtaei programma spoudwn gia to
sugkekrimeno ptuxio apo to sugkekrimeno panepisthmio gia na anagnwrisei to
ptuxio. Epishs, ta diafora ekpaideutika programmata sthn OUZA, prepei na
anagnwristoun apo to politeiako upourgeio ekpaideushs. Fusika o ka0enas
mporei na moirazei ptuxia (kai uparxoun polloi pou moirazoun for a
not-so-small fee), alla ama den anagnwrizontai, trexa gureue...
giannhs
Lida Anestidou
na
se 8ampwnw me le3eis barugdoupes. oute exw thn a3iwsis na xw8w sthn
akatallabistikh
suzhthsh sas. rwtw kai ma8ainw, pou htan kai keino to soou sthn ellhnikh toubou.
alles fores diafwnw me sena, alles me ton soulh. alla, genikws, den mporw twra
egw,
paidoula gar, na xw8w sth suzhthsh 2 palaioli8ikwn..
pame twra se auta pou toso aploxera mou apantas, xwris na ptoeisai ka8olou apo
thn
afeleia tous:
milame gia ta pitsinti kai les:
> Kai omoiothtes exoun kai diafores. Oi me0odologies pou ma0ainei
> kapoios/a sta pitsinti einai diaforetikes.
> Huh?? Ma to pitsinti grafei pentaka0ara th sxolh kai gia thn akribeia to
> programma spoudwn (pitsinti sto TADE).
> To antikeimeno ths meleths (ora TADE parapanw) erxetai me sugkekrimeno
> curriculum -- kai egkekrimeno malista apo diafores epitropes -- pou fusika
> skopo exei thn metadwsh ths me0odologias. Antikeimeno kai me0odologia
> einai tautoshma sthn ekpaideush. H sugxhsh sou ofeiletai sto peplo tou
> skotadismou pou exoun aplwsei oi diaforoi Prwtopapes. Ligh epafh me thn
> ekpaideutikh pragmatikothta deixnei tis Prwtopapikes 0eseis gia auto pou
> einai: paparies.
Giannakh mou, 8a diafwnhsw, mou epitrepeis?
to context tou antikeimenou diaferei apo doktwra se doktwra. oi diadikasies
(htis,
kritikh skepsh, prwtotupia ereunas, analush ereynas, ikanothta na dialegeis ta
sobara papers apo ta blaxika klpklp) einai idies, nomizw, e3 ou kai oti oloi mas
eimaste/8a ginoume doktwres. De pisteyw oti o tropos pou se ma8ainoun na sthneis
ena
project diaferei apo th xhmeia sta ma8hmatika sthn arxaiologia sth bioiatrikh.
diaferei to ti meletas. o tropos pou 8a a3iologhseis pws na to melethseis (pou
kata
th gnwmh mou einai kai to shmantikotero pragma ths didaskalias mesa apo ena
didaktoriko) einai idios. Dustyxws, otan esu les me8odologia bazeis mesa oxi
mono ta
peiramata (to praktiko dhladh meros) alla kai thn ikanothta krishs, paragwghs
kai
analutikhs skepshs. Etsi, to diko sou to tsoubali taytopoiei antikeimeno kai
me8odologia. sto diko mou, nai, to antikeimeno 9a sou upagorepsei ti eidous
peiramatikes diadikasies 8a akolou8hseis h ti 8ewrhtikh meleth 8a kaneis, alla h
lritikh skepsh einai uperanw antikeimenou ,imho.
>
>
> > malista.dhladh, egw ekpaideuthka me to susthma gnwshs tou kollegiou, esu
> > me tou
> > dhmosiou katw petralwnwn kai ou tw ka8'e3hs. kai tote, pws ginetai kai
dinoume
> tis
> > idies e3etaseis gia na mpoume sto panepisthmio?
>
> Ta parapona sas ston upourgo paideias kai 0rhskeumatwn.
>
> > pws ginetai kai bgazei to upourgeio
> > paideias ka8e xrono koino didaktiko programma me bash oxi to sxoleio, alla
> > to etos spoudhs?
>
> To upourgeio paideias endiaferetai na dwsei genikes odhgies pros
> nautilomenous, daskalous, klp, gia to to anamenomeno kontisioningk ana
> etos. Thn kubernhsh thn endiaferei (kai auto den to katakrinw mpah de
> goueh) h omoiogeneia tou kontisioningk. An mporei na allaksei to
> programma spoudwn ana perioxh gia na enarmonistoun oloi/es sto idio geniko
> kontisioningk, h kubernhsh 0a tokane. Alla kati tetoio einai fobera
> poluploko kai polueksodo (oute sthn OUZA den ginetai).
poios sou leei, bre paidi mou oti de ginetai logw e3odwn enw 8a mporouse
kallista na
exei aporriftei ws asumbato me thn pragmatikothta? egw den exw kanena parapono
pou
to upourgeio 8elei na didaskomaste oloi ta idia, kai oxi mono auto, alla se
genikes
grammes stis perissoteres xwres didaskontai ta idia pragmata sta sxoleia. esu
kala
anafereis thn omoiogeneia tou conditioning, plhn omws den diabasa tipote peri
diaforetikwn susthmatwn anamesa sto kollegio kai sta katw petralwna. to
kontisionigk
pou les esu exei, as poume, na kanei me th safh prospa8eia twn kollegiadwn na
e3ostrakizoun tis suzhthseis apo ta ma8hmata sth moda, alla auto den exei na
kanei
tipote me to susthma gnwshs.
> Oxi bebaia. Ta xw ksanagrapsei gia proforikes koultoures (Prwtopapa, tis
> parel0ouses glwssologikes arloumpes sou tis phre to mati mou, alla ekana
> ton psofio korio -- den peirazei, 0a sou psi0urisw duo-treis telitses twn
> Barlpiri se kapoia allh eukairia.)
nai, enat3ei, eprepe na to upopsiastw oti 8a to peis auto, swsta, as poume
loipon
oti h grafh kai h anagnwsh einai to meso epikoinwnias sth dush. san tetoio,
loipon,
xrhsimeuei panomoitropws se olous mas gia antallagh gnwsewn kai epikoinwnias.
> Den epifulassomai ka0olou. H xrhsimothta ths gnwshs den exei na kanei
> me thn susthmatopoihsh ths. H susthmatopoihsh exei na kanei me thn
> metadwsimothta ths gnwshs, thn epikoinwnia kai me thn dunatothta
> epaggelmatikopoihshs.
plaka mou kaneis? esu eipes oti epifulasesai gia thn oikokurikh kai th mageirikh
pou
den einai susthmatopoihmena sunola gnwshs. bebaiws, einai e3isou profanes oti
eisai
skrapas sthn kouzina, dioti alliws de 8a amfebales gia th metadotikothta ths
gnwshs
tous, alla 8a eleges oti einai 8ema antilhpshs kai talentou. (na ti eipes:
"kallista
mporei> kapoios/a na kanei oikokurikh sthn praksh xwris th 0ewrhtikh organwsh,
> opote h oikokurikh perilambanei praktikes gnwseis, alla den apotelei
> organwmeno susthma
>> > h mageirikh?
>> Nai (me tis antistoixes epifulakseis opws kai gia thn oikokurikh").
> H ektimhsh ths opoias gnwshs einai epilogh tou ka0enos. Oi elitistes
> kanoune tis epiloges tous kai apla poulane mourh oti oi epiloges tous
> einai oi kaluteres. Astous na lene, astous na poun...
ma to idio kaneis kai su giannh.prospa8eis na peraseis elitistika thn apopsh oti
h
susthmatopoihsh einai koinwniko protses kai oti auth ftaiei gia ta xilia kaka
ths
moiras sou kai oti prepei na apodomhsoume me kata metwpon olikh epi8esh thn
episthmh
eis ftera kai poupoula kai na arxisoume pali apo thn arxh na efeuroume ton
troxo.
kai su mourh poulas oti h optikh sou einai kaluterh htai gia na entypwsiaseis ta
plh8h htai giati exeis dixasmenh proswpikothta pou to prwi sto ergasthrio einai
paneutyxhs kai to bradu sto spiti automastigwnetai gia to oti paragei ergo mesa
sthn
episthmh pou se katapnigei.
> telika, h olh suzhthsh prokuptei akribws epeidh blepeis thn episthmh ws
> > perigegramenh ontothta (egw toulaxiston auto katalaba) kai ths arneisai
> > osa stoixeia "au8ormhtismou" exei.
>
> Xartzoulakizeis ( --> Koutaloferneis) epikinduna. O Prwtopapas prospa0ei
> na uposthriksei oti aneksarthta apo ton au0ormhtismo, klp, klp, uparxoune
> kapoia aneksarthta krithria pou epitrepoun ton diaxwrismo ths episthmhs
> apo alla gnwstika susthmata kai alles gnwseis genikotera.
eisai parwpidikos. peran ths 8eshs sou kai tou soulh, allh 8esh den uparxei? ti
me
niazei emena na mou baleis tampella gia to pou anhkw kai ti kanw? ti 8a pei
"koutalofernw"? me eides emena na exw th mania sou na ta anagw ola sthn atimh
thn
kenwnia? ftanei to paramu8i, mou 8umizei tous sundikales twn panepisthmiwn, opou
gia
ta panta eftaige to susthma. fusika kai uparxei koinwnikos daktulos mesa sthn
episthmh opws kai sthn opoiadhpote an8rwpinh ergasia. kai o hlios 8a anateilei
aurio
to prwi. allo pasifanes 8a analusoume? esu thn pnigeis thn episthmh, paidaki
mou,
ths kobeis ta ftera , thn kaneis 3erh kai apaisia opws oi kinezoi sta
ergasthria,
stafidiasmenh kai mouxliasmenh. La8os kaneis. H episthmh einai au8ormhth, kai
auto
einai kai to megalutero ths atou. Den periorizei th skepsh kanenos kai eisai
eleu8eros na sxediaseis oti me8odo 8es. Epipleon, h sunergasia pou anaptusetai
anamesa se episthmones (ki mhn arxiseis twra gia antagwnismous klp, allo 8elw na
pw)
einai poly entonoterh se sxesh me opoiondhpote allo epaggelmatiko klado. Ase pou
gia
para pollous apo mas h episthmh den einai kan epaggelma.
> Pare mia kitrinh karta gia faoul kai gia boutia oti taxa mou taxa mou
> tokana egw. H erwthsh htane to kata poso to faghto 0a meinei to idio an
> allakseis ton tropo mageirematos.
pws bre anwmale allazei o tropos mageirematos an baleis to idio prama se
katsarola
mple ap'e3w h se mia kitrinh? idios paramenei, giati kia h kirtinh kai h mple
einai
katsaroles. Oxi tapsi kai thgani, k a t s a r o l e s.
> O Prwtopapas katalabe perifhma thn tampakiera peri hs o logos, giauto ki
> edwse to paradeigma me thn maregka. Prospa0hse bebaia na suskotisei ta
> pramata milwntas gia maregka apo krokadia anti gia aspradia.
ti na suskotisei bre orgio? maregka ginetai monaxa me aspradia. terma. enas
tropos
uparxei na ftia3eis maregka kai einai autos. and that is that. kai poly kala sou
tribei sth mourh ta skorda pou 8es na xtyphseis sto mi3er na kaneis maregka. de
mporeis na th ftai3eis me allo tropo, opws de mporeis na ftia3eis portokalia apo
mia
mhlia. terma.
> H mageirikh
> bebaia den exei 0ewria apo pisw na sou leei poia einai ta krokadia kai
> poia ta aspradia
> (eks ou kai to antikanoniko markarisma tou Prwtopapa,
> alla ka0oti katafera na krathsw thn mpalla ekana pws den katalaba kai
> sunexisa). Estw pantws oti h mageirikh eixe 0ewria. To 0ema einai tote
> PWS 0a kserame poia einai ta aspradia kai poia ta krokadia gia na
> ftiaksoume thn maregka (estw oti kseroume poia einai ta auga -- elpizw
> na katalabaineis to platos tou aparaithtou gnwstikou upoba0rou). Ena
> problhma ekei (mhn pas gia xrwma, giati exw axrwmatopsia, kai 0a
> ksanapaiksoume thn koloku0ia). Allo problhma 0atane to ksexwrisma
> aspradiwn-krokwn. Fusika ki h 0ewria den leei POIOS einai o katallhlos
> tropos. Oute kan o tselementes den to leei.
malista. dhladh pws orisame oti ta aspradia 8a einai h asprh mu3a kai ta
krokadia h
kitrinh? a3iwmatika ta orisame gia na mporoume na sunennoh8oume. Pws 3exwrisame
poios einai o hlios kai poio to feggari, poia h petra kai poio to futo. eprepe
dhladh na kanoume 42 peiramata gia na pistopoihsoume ti? oti to aspradi to leme
aspradi? prepei na eimai poly xazh, dioti thn protash sou auth den thn pianw
ka8olou. 8a einai poly barunousas shmasias fainetai kai den ta
katafernw....exeis
axrwmatopsia, e? malista. Loipon, to krokadi einai auto pou menei oloklhro otan
spaseis ena augo. h an eisai poly tsapatsoulhs, einai auto me thn pio lepth
sustash,
auto me to ligotero i3wdes. oso gia ton tropo pou 8a spaseis ta auga, afenos kai
o
tselementes to leei, kai h 8ewria ths mageirikhs to leei. ara, h mageirikh exei
8ewria gia to pws megeireuei kaneis. kai sou leei: ti 8es? na ftia3eis auga?
exoume kai leme: melata, matia, scrambled, omelleta, pose, benedict, kai de
sumazeuetai. kai ola ayta ginontai to ka8ena me ENAN tropo, Giannh, enan kai
monadiko. H 8ewria ths loipon sou leei pws na mafeirepseis, pws na kopseis, na
koskiniseis klp. kai epipleon, peiramatizesai kai monaxos sou toso gia na
dokimaseis
th 8ewria an ta leei kala oso kai gia na deis ti apotelesma 8a exei px to na
peta3eis to augo sto mpwl mesa, opote de 8a 3exwriseis pote to apsradi apo ton
kroko
h ti apotelesma 8a exei an kaneis to sfalma na agnohseis thn odhgia gia to posa
akribws lepta brazeis ta mudia, kai anti 10 lepta ta braseis px 15. 8a fas mia
mudosola aneu prohgoumenou. etsi dokimazeis th 8ewria ths mageirikhs.snip ola ta
peri koinwnikou efialth (lege me advisora), den exoun kammia sxesh me to paron,
apla
ekfrazoun ta traumata sou, Giannh mou.
Lhda
Peter PETROPOULOS
> > > programma spoudwn (pitsinti sto TADE).
> >
>
> Huh??? Ela mpip-mpip ston topo sou...
> Apo ta panepisthmia pou kserw, to pitsinti grafei se ti einai.
Kai epimevw, to exeis eksakribwsei ? Dnladn, exeis eksakribwsei
oti to xarti pou paei gia korvizarisma leei epavw tou tov tomea
spoudwv ?
Egw exw brei merika circa 1991 kai ta rnmadia dev leve tipota gia
tov tomea spoudwv...
> Ama
> koitakseis tis anakoinwseis gia episthmonodouleies, epishs lene se ti
> tomea ('h tomeis) to 0eloune to pitsinti 'h to master's 'h to opoiodhpote
> certification ekpaideushs.
To zntoumevo eivai to pitsivti ti grafei Koutale.
> Upo0etw oti einai genikh praktikh na grafei to pitsinti se
> ti einai.
Upo0eteis ??? ma pio pavw faivesai toooso sigouros.
> UG: Petropoule, tsakw 2 fwtografies tou Prwtopapa na koitaei t' astra...
> Miso lepto, kati eida twra sth nougia twn zartierwn tou Prwtopapa. Ti
> nanai? Oxi, den grafei Victoria's Secret, kati allo einai... Wwwww, ama
> ta analusw auta ta sxedia me thn me0odologia tou Eddington, briskw oti h
> apoklish tou fwtos apo to baruntiko pedio tou Hliou einai auth pou
> problepei h Genikh 0ewria ths Sxetikothtas. W, nai, nai, alh0hs esti h
> Genikh Sxetikothta!
Diabases Pais ? Gia to symmetry principle 0a mas apavtnseis ?
Petros
Yiannis Koutalos
> Kai epimevw, to exeis eksakribwsei ? Dnladn, exeis eksakribwsei
> oti to xarti pou paei gia korvizarisma leei epavw tou tov tomea
> spoudwv ?
To xarti pou upografei to committee kai h mprostinh selida tou
thesis to grafei safestata to programma spoudwn aposo exw dei. Ta
epishma xartia apo ta panepisthmia epishs grafoun aposo exw dei ton
tomea tou pitsinti. Gia tis kornizes ti na soupw. Oute kala-kala mporw
na tis diabasw me thn kalligrafia tous.
> Diabases Pais ?
Tsoukou. Esu gia ta noumera pousteila ti les? Kataferes na ta diabaseis
'h takanes gargara?
> Gia to symmetry principle 0a mas apavtnseis ?
Fusika kai sumfwnw me thn diatupwsh pou esteiles. Thn arxh auth thn 0ewrw
ereunhtiko ergaleio kai oxi epekshghmatiko (egrapsa gia tis strathgikes
upoxwrhseis kapoiwn koinwniologwn panw sauto). Auto den shmainei oti oi
koinwnikopolitikes diadikasies einai arketes gia na ermhneusoun thn
leitourgikothta mias me0odologias. Oi me0odologies prepei na douleuoun
sthn praksh, prama to opoio shmainei oti prepei na masane me thn
pragmatikothta. Alla oi me0odologies epilegontai mesa apo
koinwnikopolitikes diadikasies. Fusika kai to amaksi den pairnei mprosta
epeidh etsi pshfise o sullogos fusikwn prin 100 xronia. Alla to amaksi
brisketai gia na to balw mprosta oxi mono giati exei authn thn idiothta,
alla epishs kai eneka koinwnikopolitikwn diadikasiwn, oi opoies
perilambanoun kai tis me0odologikes epiloges twn fusikwn prin 100 xronia.
giannhs
Yiannis Koutalos
> to context tou antikeimenou diaferei apo doktwra se doktwra. oi diadikasies
(htis,
> kritikh skepsh, prwtotupia ereunas, analush ereynas, ikanothta na dialegeis ta
> sobara papers apo ta blaxika klpklp) einai idies, nomizw, e3 ou kai oti oloi
mas
> eimaste/8a ginoume doktwres.
Mpla, mpla, mpla. Gia auta trwme ta moustakia mas me ton Prwtopapa.
Diafwnw kai se parapempw sthn episthmologikh koubenta.
[xrats mia apo ta idia]
[xrouts gia ekpaideutika susthmata, allh fora]
[xrits gia anagnwsh kai grafh, sumfwnoume]
> ma to idio kaneis kai su giannh.prospa8eis na peraseis elitistika thn
> apopsh oti h
> susthmatopoihsh einai koinwniko protses
Pou ton briskeis ton elitismo sauta pou grafw mwrh?
> kai oti auth ftaiei gia ta xilia kaka ths
> moiras sou kai oti prepei na apodomhsoume me kata metwpon olikh epi8esh thn
episthmh
> eis ftera kai poupoula kai na arxisoume pali apo thn arxh na efeuroume ton
troxo.
St' armata st' armata, to phrouni xumhse na mas plakwsei... kindunologeis
nthar. H susthmatopoihsh, nai, einai koinwniko protses, alla den einai
aparaithta kati ti to kako. Organwnei ta pramata, alla tautoxrona bazei
kai kaloupia. Kalo einai na ta katalabainoume ta kaloupia. Nespa?
[xrats psuxanaluseis tou kwlou -- sabbatiatika]
> eisai parwpidikos. peran ths 8eshs sou kai tou soulh, allh 8esh den uparxei?
ti me
> niazei emena na mou baleis tampella gia to pou anhkw kai ti kanw? ti 8a pei
> "koutalofernw"?
Kala, mhn kaneis etsi. Mpardon.
> me eides emena na exw th mania sou na ta anagw ola sthn atimh thn
> kenwnia?
Ma o Karras eisai? Exw grapsei epaneilhmena, kai se sena, oti oi
me0odologies douleuoun mesa apo epafh me thn ulikh pragmatikothta, auth
einai to antikeimeno tous. Den ta anagw ola sthn koinwnia, alla dinw sthn
koinwnia ena meridio, kai to kanw me sugkekrimenous kritikous stoxous.
> ta panta eftaige to susthma. fusika kai uparxei koinwnikos daktulos mesa sthn
> episthmh opws kai sthn opoiadhpote an8rwpinh ergasia. kai o hlios 8a anateilei
aurio
> to prwi. allo pasifanes 8a analusoume?
Auta na ta peis ston Prwtopapa. Afou sumfwnoume, stay tuned kai
ksekiname thn koubenta gia thn dunatothta ekdhmokratikopoihshs ths
episthmhs. Pws sou fainetai mia tetoia koubenta?
> pws bre anwmale allazei o tropos mageirematos an baleis to idio prama se
katsarola
> mple ap'e3w h se mia kitrinh? idios paramenei, giati kia h kirtinh kai h mple
einai
> katsaroles. Oxi tapsi kai thgani, k a t s a r o l e s.
Epi ths tampakieras parakalw. Ama allakseis thn me0odologia (aposo kserw
to xrwma ths katsarolas den poluephreazei thn me0odologia) bgainei idio to
fa.i?
> ti na suskotisei bre orgio? maregka ginetai monaxa me aspradia.
Kai ti einai ta "aspradia"? Sto xwrio mou den exoume apo tetoia (a re
PrwtopapaPetropouloi pou katanthsame me tis ahdies sas. Anti na koitame
thn kbantwsh kai ta EPR gia paradeigmata na koitame ta krokadia kai t'
aspradia... eleos...)
> terma. enas tropos
> uparxei na ftia3eis maregka kai einai autos.
Gia ekshghse mou ton. Kai aporripse mou me episthmologika krithria tis
alles "maregkes".
> and that is that. kai poly kala sou
> tribei sth mourh ta skorda pou 8es na xtyphseis sto mi3er na kaneis maregka.
Apla ksekinas mia koinwnikopolitikh diadikasia me thn opoia aporripteis
thn koutalosuntagh gia thn kataskeuh maregkas. Aneksarthta krithria
exeis? An oxi, sumfwnoume.
[xrouts mageirikes epekshghseis pou apodexontai tis koinwnikes sumbaseis
enw dinoun kai to aparaithto baros sthn ulikh pragmatikothta kai me tis
opoies sumfwnw]
giannhs
UG: Prwtopapa, touth edw me poia omada paizei? Me authn tou Xartzoulakh?
'H mphke kai tetarth omada sto ghpedo?
Emmanouil Makrakis
Epishs, ta diafora ekpaideutika programmata sthn OUZA, prepei na
>anagnwristoun apo to politeiako upourgeio ekpaideushs. Fusika o ka0enas
>mporei na moirazei ptuxia (kai uparxoun polloi pou moirazoun for a
>not-so-small fee), alla ama den anagnwrizontai, trexa gureue...
>
>giannhs
>
na isxuei stis
HPA. Ama to state den exei kanei aproove to programma spoudwn gia kapoio
ptuxio opoioudhpote panepisthmiou tote de dikaioute to panephsthmio na
moirazei ptuxia. Egw exw san paradeigma to NJIT kai to Fairleigh Dickinson.
m.m
Lida Anestidou
eimai poly eutyxhs, dioti arxisa na bazw se mia ta3h tis skepseis mou pou
aerobatousan
toses bdomades logw ths koutaloprwtopapokoubentas. 8auma, 8auma!!!!
Yiannis Koutalos wrote:
> Mpla, mpla, mpla. Gia auta trwme ta moustakia mas me ton Prwtopapa.
> Diafwnw kai se parapempw sthn episthmologikh koubenta.
mporw na kanw mia lista? (pes oti pame sth laikh kai grafoume ti 8eme na
paroume)as
paroume th diadikasia pou xreiazetai gia na parei kapoios ena didaktoriko.
-apofasizei se ti antikeimeno 8elei na doulepsei (px. balkanikoi polemoi)
-apokta mesa apo didaskalia, ta3eis, individual studies efodia pou einai
aparaithta gia na
mporesei na sunexisei tis spoudes tou wste na parei sto telos to diplwma (px.
statistikh,
istoria ths boulgarias klp)
-me th boh8eia tou advisora h ths epitrophs tou, briskei ena 8ema prwtotupo pou
tou
parexei th dynatothta gia ereyna (px. oi kaltsodetes tou megalou douka ths
gioukoslabias
kai h summetoxh tous ston b'balkaniko polemo)
-sxediazei ton tropo me ton opoio 8a pragmatopoihsei thn ereyna tou gia to
sugkekrimeno
8ema (px. arkei ena ektenes literature search h xreiazetai na bgei o doukas apo
ton tafo
tou na doume tis kalstodetes kai na kanoume DNA analysis)
-ektelei auta pou apofasise sto prohgoumeno bhma kai an xreiazetai, pros8etei
neous
tropous ereunas (neoi de shmainei olokainourgioi, apla shmainei neoi ws pros to
project to
sugkekrimeno) wste na ftasei to skopo tou, o opoios htan na pei 5 pragmata pou
den exoun
3anaeipw8ei gia tis kalstodetes tou megalou douka ths gioukoslabias (px. den
foraei
kalstodetes to ptwma, ara de mporei na tis brei, ws ek toutou den mporei na
ginei
prwtotyph ereuna panw se auto to 8ema, ara den arkei na pros8esoume nea
peiramata, alla
xreiazomaste neo 8ema ereunas)
-afou kopiasei kai xusei idrwta me aima, erxetai h wra pou parousiazei ti kai
pws kai
giati brhke, kai an oi anemoi einai ourioi pairnei to xarti to perifhmo. to
xarti auto 8a
leei: doktwr ths istorias o tade.
olh auth h diadikasia einai suthmatopoihmenh kai akolou8ei thn arxh oti apo to a
8a pame
sto b kai meta sto g kai de mporoume apo to a na pame sto d kai meta sto b klp.
h diadikasia touth orizetai *ane3arthta* apo to 8ema sto opoio douleuei kapoios.
auto
einai to koino stoixeio olwn twn didaktorikwn, Giannh, einai na ma8eis ti
diadikasia
xreiazetai wste na mporeis na sthseis monos sou mia ereynhtikh prospa8eia pou na
steu8ei
kata to dunaton me epityxia. den exei shmasia poio peirama 8a kaneis (ennow an
8a kaneis
anaskafh h an 8a baleis sidhro kai nitriko o3u na parageis molubdainio), shmasia
exei na
ma8eis pws na antistoixeis thn arxikh sou idea/ypo9esh me peiramatikous tropous
pou na
einai se 8esh na sou dwsoun fereggua apotelesmata. na ma8eis, epishs, na exeis
kritikh
skepsh. 8a mou peis: analoga me to ti 8es na breis, dialegeis ta peiramata sou,
th
statistikh sou klp kai auto einai koinwnikh diadikasia. swsta, alla giauto
uparxoun oi
sunadelfoi (lege me peers) pou 8a bgoun kai 8a poun oti kaneis kotsanes giati
etsi kai
etsi kai etsi. an esu , o giannhs, mporeis na petyxeis transfection enos
kuttarou me to na
kaneis anaskafh sto denver, kane to kai 8a sugkrinoume ta apotelesmata sou me
auta allwn
ereynhtwn. swsta?
> > ma to idio kaneis kai su giannh.prospa8eis na peraseis elitistika thn
> > apopsh oti h
> > susthmatopoihsh einai koinwniko protses
>
> Pou ton briskeis ton elitismo sauta pou grafw mwrh?
aplws kanw to point, oti kalista mporei kapoios na sou pei oti diafwneis for the
sake of
the argument kai oxi giati exeis kati kainourgio na pros8eseis. dialegeis na
baleis ton
eauto sou se ena rafi makria apo tous upoloipous kai tous aparneisai legontas
oti auta pou
kanoun einai axrhsta. auto den einai elitismos?
>
>
> >St' armata st' armata, to phrouni xumhse na mas plakwsei... kindunologeis
> nthar. H susthmatopoihsh, nai, einai koinwniko protses, alla den einai
> aparaithta kati ti to kako. Organwnei ta pramata, alla tautoxrona bazei
> kai kaloupia. Kalo einai na ta katalabainoume ta kaloupia. Nespa?
ma giannh mou, de bghke kaneis na sou pei oti den antilambanetai ta kaloupia ths
susthmatopoihshs. o logos gia ton opoio uparxei susthmatopoihsh einai giati sthn
episthmh
eisai upoxrewmenos na exeis antikeimenikothta se auta pou briskeis. ta peiramata
sou
prepei na mporoun na ginontai apo oiondhpote ereynhth sth gh, ta apotelesmata
sou na
antexoun se statistikes boles, h 8ewria sou na denei me ta uparxonta montela kai
an de
denei na prokalei se neous tropous ereunas wste na sthrix8ei h na aporrif8ei.
pes mou se
parakalw pws alliws mporeis na krineis thn antikeimenikothta enos apotelesmatos
an den
exeis kanones pou na stekontai sto xrono kai panw stous opoious exoume sthrix8ei
gia na
ftai3oume ola osa exoume petyxei ws twra?
> Den ta anagw ola sthn koinwnia, alla dinw sthn
> koinwnia ena meridio, kai to kanw me sugkekrimenous kritikous stoxous.
>
> > ta panta eftaige to susthma. fusika kai uparxei koinwnikos daktulos mesa
sthn
> > episthmh opws kai sthn opoiadhpote an8rwpinh ergasia. kai o hlios 8a
anateilei aurio
> > to prwi. allo pasifanes 8a analusoume?
>
> Auta na ta peis ston Prwtopapa. Afou sumfwnoume, stay tuned kai
> ksekiname thn koubenta gia thn dunatothta ekdhmokratikopoihshs ths
> episthmhs. Pws sou fainetai mia tetoia koubenta?
de nomizw pws o prwtopapas arneitai thn koinwnikh pareisfrhsh mesa sthn
episthmh. aplws de
dexetai oti prpei na apodomh8ei h episthmonikh diadikasia eis ta e3 wn sunete8h
wste na
kritikaristei xwris (opws les esu) koinwnikh parembash.
egw dexomai safws ton koinwniko xarakthra ths episthmhs, toso ws pros ta pou
paei, ti
skopous e3uphretei kai gia poio logo arxise na ufistatai. ayto pou de dexomai
einai oti
den einai antikeimenikh. O tropos meleths, Giannh, einai antikeimenikos. To 8ema
einai
auto pou ka8orizetai (shmera pleon para polu) apo koinwnikes diadikasies (lege
me lefta,
NIH, NAsa klp).
>
>
> > pws bre anwmale allazei o tropos mageirematos an baleis to idio prama se
katsarola
> > mple ap'e3w h se mia kitrinh? idios paramenei, giati kia h kirtinh kai h
mple einai
> > katsaroles. Oxi tapsi kai thgani, k a t s a r o l e s.
>
> Epi ths tampakieras parakalw. Ama allakseis thn me0odologia (aposo kserw
> to xrwma ths katsarolas den poluephreazei thn me0odologia) bgainei idio to
> fa.i?
re Giannh, gia onoma tou 8eou. sou 3anagrafw ti eipe o Xartz:"An sou mageireyw
to idio fai
se allh katsarolaqa einai to idio h allo
fai???". pws allazei h me8odologia an alla3eis thn katsarola me allh katsarola?
katsarola
h men katsarola kia h de.an einai apo xalko h mia h apo sidhro h allh den
allazei oute to
eidos tou faghtou oute h sustash tou. mporei na megalwsei o xronos mageirematos
kai na
ginei ligo pio geystiko to ena apo to allo, alla auto den allazei to fai. to fai
8a
alla3ei an to thganiseis anti na to braseis, opote 8a les fate thganhta
kalamaria anti
brasta. an esu kai gw brasoume o ka8eis kalamaria se diaforetikes katsaroles,
pali brasta
kalamaria 8a paroume sto telos. esu mporei na ta pareis pio grhgora apo mena,
opote tote
8a milhsoume gia efficiency ths dikhs sou katsarolas apenanti sth dikh mou, alla
auto
oudolws allazei to brasto tou kalamariou.
> Kai ti einai ta "aspradia"? Sto xwrio mou den exoume apo tetoia (a re
> PrwtopapaPetropouloi pou katanthsame me tis ahdies sas. Anti na koitame
> thn kbantwsh kai ta EPR gia paradeigmata na koitame ta krokadia kai t'
> aspradia... eleos...)
>
> > terma. enas tropos
> > uparxei na ftia3eis maregka kai einai autos.
>
> Gia ekshghse mou ton. Kai aporripse mou me episthmologika krithria tis
> alles "maregkes".
>
> > and that is that. kai poly kala sou
> > tribei sth mourh ta skorda pou 8es na xtyphseis sto mi3er na kaneis maregka.
>
> Apla ksekinas mia koinwnikopolitikh diadikasia me thn opoia aporripteis
> thn koutalosuntagh gia thn kataskeuh maregkas. Aneksarthta krithria
> exeis? An oxi, sumfwnoume.
Giannh, to paradeigma ths mageirikhs einai apeirws wraioteron tou EPR (to opoio
gri den
skampazw). pame, loipon:sto xwrio sou pou den ta lete aspradia, 8a spasei
kapoios ena aygo
kai 8a pei dixnontas to aspradi: eutouno einai mu3a kai to kitrino einai spit.
etsi
orisame kai sto xwrio sou oti to augo apoteleitai apo mu3a kai spit, antistoixa
tou
aspradiou kai tou krokou. otan kaneis xtypa tis mu3es bgazei ena afrwdes pragma
pou kapou
to lene maregka, kai sto xwrio sou to lene prats. o tropos paraskeuhs ths
maregkas kai tou
prats einai idios, ara to prats einai maregka kai maregka einai prats. kapoios
xtypa sto
blender rodakina me giaourti kai bgazei ena zoumi pou to leei xymo. esu de
mporeis na
er8eis kai na tou peis, auto den einai xumos, alla maregka, dioti exoume (emeis
oi
e3upnoi) prolabei kai orisei oti maregka einai to xtyphmeno aspradi/my3a twn
augwn. kai
epeidh eimaste magges, epikratei to diko mas a3iwma gia to ti einai maregka kai
oxi to
diko sou. Esu, twra, mporeis na peraseis th zwh sou olh prospa8wntas na ftia3eis
kati pou
na exei idia systash, geush, idiothtes, xrwma klpklp me to spit tou xwriou sou
alla na mhn
proerxetai apo auga. an ta katafereis, 8a bgoume kai 8a poume: maregka (pou
palia legotan
to xtyphmeno aspradi) ginetai h apo auga h apo skorda me patzaria.
ta ane3arthta krithria einai h analush ths sustashs, idiothtwn klpklpklp pou
anefera pio
panw me xhmeia, bioxhmeia, anatomia, oti 8es.
kai einai antikeimenika ta krithria auta dioti exoun apodei3ei thn a3ia tous kai
thn
anaparagwgimothta tous stous aiwnes. an de ta 8ewreis antikeimenika, epeidh
kapoios ta
orise kapote, poly wraia: ftia3e ta dika sou krithria, peise me oti oi idiothtes
tous
einai antikeimenikes kai ela na e3etasoume to spit, th maregka kai ta
skordopatzaria me ta
dika sou krithria, na doume ti 8a broume.
> UG: Prwtopapa, touth edw me poia omada paizei? Me authn tou Xartzoulakh?
> 'H mphke kai tetarth omada sto ghpedo?
egw sxoleio paw, na ma8w hr8a, kai rwtw afeleis erwthseis mpas kai klepsw ligh
apo th
sofia sas.
L.
Yiannis Koutalos
[xrats h dakrubrexth istoria enos gkrant stiountent]
> olh auth h diadikasia einai suthmatopoihmenh kai akolou8ei thn arxh oti
> apo to a 8a pame
> sto b kai meta sto g kai de mporoume apo to a na pame sto d kai meta
> sto b klp.
> h diadikasia touth orizetai *ane3arthta* apo to 8ema sto opoio douleuei
> kapoios. auto
> einai to koino stoixeio olwn twn didaktorikwn, Giannh, einai na ma8eis ti
> diadikasia
> xreiazetai wste na mporeis na sthseis monos sou mia ereynhtikh prospa8eia
> pou na steu8ei
> kata to dunaton me epityxia.
H enarmonish twn tupikwn ekpaideutikwn krithriwn gia xorhghsh pitsinti apo
tomea se tomea mou leei mono gia thn organwsh tou ekpaideutikou
susthmatos. Gia tous tomeis proseggishs tou episthtou den leei kai polla.
Opote swsta les:
> 8a mou peis: analoga me to ti 8es na breis, dialegeis ta peiramata sou, th
> statistikh sou klp kai auto einai koinwnikh diadikasia. swsta, alla giauto
> uparxoun oi
> sunadelfoi (lege me peers) pou 8a bgoun kai 8a poun oti kaneis kotsanes
> giati etsi kai etsi kai etsi.
Eksakolou0eis na briskesai sthn koinwnikh diadikasia (he said, she said,
they said, but I said)
> an esu , o giannhs, mporeis na petyxeis transfection enos kuttarou me to
> na kaneis anaskafh sto denver, kane to kai 8a sugkrinoume ta
> apotelesmata sou me auta allwn ereynhtwn. swsta?
Oloswsta. An kai 0a se perilabei o Prwtopapas fantazomai, na pw mono oti
les ligo-polu oti mazeuontai oi peers kai metrane poios thn exei
makruterh. H episthmologia tou 0anash paei gia broubes.
> aplws kanw to point, oti kalista mporei kapoios na sou pei oti diafwneis
> for the sake of
> the argument kai oxi giati exeis kati kainourgio na pros8eseis. dialegeis
> na baleis ton
> eauto sou se ena rafi makria apo tous upoloipous kai tous aparneisai
Ma OLOUS (oxi mono ton Petrako) mas exei agorasei h allh omada. Tapa kai
ston Anhpsio auta, alla den tou aresan.
> legontas oti auta pou kanoun einai axrhsta.
> auto den einai elitismos?
Apla allergia sto poulhma mourhs einai. Thn douleia tous kanoun oi
an0rwpoi. Etsi kai bgaloune kati tis xrhsimo (mhn anoiksoume
koubenta gia touto twra) me geia tous me xara tous. Na tous 0umh0w stis
proseuxes mou ston Dionuso. Etsi kai de bgaloune, kai pali me geia tous
kai xara tous, 0a tous bgalw apo tis proseuxes mou. Alla naxeis ena
pitsinti kai na kaneis episthmonikh douleia den shmainei oti kaneis kai
kati xrhsimo.
> ma giannh mou, de bghke kaneis na sou pei oti den antilambanetai ta kaloupia
ths
> susthmatopoihshs. o logos gia ton opoio uparxei susthmatopoihsh einai giati
sthn episthmh
> eisai upoxrewmenos na exeis antikeimenikothta se auta pou briskeis. ta
peiramata sou
> prepei na mporoun na ginontai apo oiondhpote ereynhth sth gh, ta apotelesmata
sou na
> antexoun se statistikes boles, h 8ewria sou na denei me ta uparxonta montela
kai an de
> denei na prokalei se neous tropous ereunas wste na sthrix8ei h na aporrif8ei.
pes mou se
> parakalw pws alliws mporeis na krineis thn antikeimenikothta enos
apotelesmatos an den
> exeis kanones pou na stekontai sto xrono kai panw stous opoious exoume
sthrix8ei gia na
> ftai3oume ola osa exoume petyxei ws twra?
H antikeimenikothta einai h ekfrash tou koinwnikou consensus. Ekfrazei th
sumfwnia sthn xrhsh KOINWN me0odologiwn, outws wste h pragmatikothta na
parousiazetai me ton idio tropo. Antikeimenikothta = me0odologikh
pei0arxia (ki edw mpainoune oi austhres, pei0arxhmenes diadikasies stis
opoies anaferetai o 0anashs -- alla oi koinwnikopolitikes diadikasies den
bgainoune eksw)
> O tropos meleths, Giannh, einai antikeimenikos.
H antikeimenikothta omws katoxurwnetai me thn apodoxh/epibolh ths KOINHS
me0odologias.
> Giannh, to paradeigma ths mageirikhs einai apeirws wraioteron tou EPR (to
> opoio gri den skampazw). pame, loipon:sto xwrio sou pou den ta lete
> aspradia, 8a spasei kapoios ena aygo kai 8a pei dixnontas to aspradi:
> eutouno einai mu3a kai to kitrino einai spit.
Kaneis to idio antikanoniko markarisma pou ekane o Prwtopapas. Ksexnas
oti to 0ema den einai ti lene sto xwrio mou, alla to ti leei h 0ewria.
Apo th 0ewria mporeis na bgaleis poia einai ta aspradia kai poia ta
krokadia? Oxi bebaia. Prepei nar0ei kapoios apo to xwrio pouxoune th
0ewria ths maregkas na sou deiksei sthn PRAKSH ti ennooune. Auto pou
perifhma perigrafeis einai h koinwnikh diadikasia metadwshs ths
me0odologias. Etsi douleuei OLH h paragwgh kai metadwsh gnwshs,
sumperilambanomenhs ths episthmonikhs. Alla o Prwtopapas ebgale spurakia
blepw, opote tou afhnw thn mpalla.
[xrats ta upoloipa me ta opoia sumfwnw]
giannhs
Lida Anestidou
den akous kala twra teleutaia, sou eipa, ena swro fores de 8elw katata3h se
omada, xristiane
mou, ase me hsuxh, ti douleia exw gw twra na anakateuomai na xwrisw duo gaidarwn
axura?
egw exw to diko mou mpa.i.raki!
> [xrats h dakrubrexth istoria enos gkrant stiountent]
no ntarlingk, xrats, pws xrats? kai giati xrats? einai h den einai h diadikasia
pou odhgei se
ena didaktoriko etsi?
> H enarmonish twn tupikwn ekpaideutikwn krithriwn gia xorhghsh pitsinti apo
> tomea se tomea mou leei mono gia thn organwsh tou ekpaideutikou
> susthmatos. Gia tous tomeis proseggishs tou episthtou den leei kai polla.
bre iwannh, ti sxesh exei h organwsh tou susthmatos me to na eisai se 8esh na
krineis or8a mia
ergasia, ena paper, mia 8ewria, ena peirama?to episthto den exoume akoma orisei
poio einai,
Giannh, upopsiazomai oti allo exw egw kai allo esu.
Gia mena, px, to episthto einai na apokthsei kapoios kritikh skepsh, ikanothta
logikhs
epakolou8ias kai na mporei na sthsei ena peiramatiko tropo na psa3ei tis
erwthseis tou. auto to
episthto mou to proseggizei h diadikasia tou doktwratou mia xara.
> Eksakolou0eis na briskesai sthn koinwnikh diadikasia (he said, she said,
> they said, but I said)
3ekolla re Giannh, to'pame auto, uparxei koinwniko stoixeio, p a m e p a r a k
a t w
>
>
> > an esu , o giannhs, mporeis na petyxeis transfection enos kuttarou me to
> > na kaneis anaskafh sto denver, kane to kai 8a sugkrinoume ta
> > apotelesmata sou me auta allwn ereynhtwn. swsta?
>
> Oloswsta. An kai 0a se perilabei o Prwtopapas fantazomai, na pw mono oti
> les ligo-polu oti mazeuontai oi peers kai metrane poios thn exei
> makruterh. H episthmologia tou 0anash paei gia broubes.
ti les re giannh? pou ta diabases auta mesa stis protaseis mou?exeis dei pote
sou na proteinei
kapoios kainourgia me8odo gia kati? obviously 8a exeis dei, an mh ti allo, etsi
proxwrame, me
kainourgia, kalutera kai 8aumasterotera. einai pote dunaton na krinei kapoios
mia me8odo dixws
krithria austhra proka8orismena? mpas kai nomizeis oti oloi kanoume kritikh san
tou
xartzoulakh, pou h apanthsh tou einai "etsi"?
pame sto paradeigma.
ti zhtame? na baloume DNA 3eno (auto shmainei transfection) se ena kuttaro. ws
ta twra auto
ginetai sunh8ws me to na baloume to DNA pou 8eloume mesa se enan io, kai meta na
molunoume to
kuttaro me ton io, opote 8a parei to kuttaro mas to DNA apo ton io, 8a to enwsei
me to diko tou
kai 8a exoume to epizhtoumeno apotelesma. Pws krinoume oti h prospa8eia na
kanoume transfection
petyxe? analuoume to DNA tou kuttarou kai blepoume oti mphke h den mphke. Autos
einai enas
tropos. Yparxoune kai alloi (liposwmata, xrhsh hlektrismou klp). Erxesai esu
twra kai les, ma
ti duskolh auth h me8odos, egw 8a brw mia allh. Kai kataferneis xrhsimopoiwntas
ena dialumma me
moustarda na peraseis to DNA pou 8es mesa sto kuttaro sou. An to apotelesma sou
einai valid and
reproducible exoume mia nea me8odo. Pws xwra edw mesa h trith h makruterh, de
mou les?
> > ma giannh mou, de bghke kaneis na sou pei oti den antilambanetai ta kaloupia
ths
> > susthmatopoihshs. o logos gia ton opoio uparxei susthmatopoihsh einai giati
sthn episthmh
> > eisai upoxrewmenos na exeis antikeimenikothta se auta pou briskeis. ta
peiramata sou
> > prepei na mporoun na ginontai apo oiondhpote ereynhth sth gh, ta
apotelesmata sou na
> > antexoun se statistikes boles, h 8ewria sou na denei me ta uparxonta montela
kai an de
> > denei na prokalei se neous tropous ereunas wste na sthrix8ei h na
aporrif8ei. pes mou se
> > parakalw pws alliws mporeis na krineis thn antikeimenikothta enos
apotelesmatos an den
> > exeis kanones pou na stekontai sto xrono kai panw stous opoious exoume
sthrix8ei gia na
> > ftai3oume ola osa exoume petyxei ws twra?
>
> H antikeimenikothta einai h ekfrash tou koinwnikou consensus. Ekfrazei th
> sumfwnia sthn xrhsh KOINWN me0odologiwn, outws wste h pragmatikothta na
> parousiazetai me ton idio tropo. Antikeimenikothta = me0odologikh
> pei0arxia (ki edw mpainoune oi austhres, pei0arxhmenes diadikasies stis
> opoies anaferetai o 0anashs -- alla oi koinwnikopolitikes diadikasies den
> bgainoune eksw)
erwthsh:
pou exeis problhma me ta antikeimenika krithria? exeis mpourdouklw8ei me to oti
to ti einai
antikeimeniko to exei orisei kapoios pou 8elei na fainetai to apotelesma me ton
alfa tropo, ara
ti einai antikeimeniko e3uphretei panta (skoteinous) sugkekrimenous skopous.
rwtw, loipon: blepontas oti ebales to DNA sou mesa sto kuttaro me thn southern
pou 8a kaneis,
ti den einai antikeimeniko, ti skopo e3uphretei to apotelesma, kai ti exeis na
antiproteineis?
> Apo th 0ewria mporeis na bgaleis poia einai ta aspradia kai poia ta
> krokadia? Oxi bebaia. Prepei nar0ei kapoios apo to xwrio pouxoune th 0ewria
ths maregkas na
> sou deiksei sthn PRAKSH ti ennooune. Auto pou perifhma perigrafeis einai h
koinwnikh
> diadikasia metadwshs ths me0odologias. Etsi douleuei OLH h paragwgh kai
metadwsh gnwshs,
> sumperilambanomenhs ths episthmonikhs. Alla o Prwtopapas ebgale spurakia
blepw, opote tou
> afhnw thn mpalla.
ti sxesh exei to parapanw me auto pou egrapses kamposa mail pio prin kai to
opoio para8etw,
dioti phdas sa batraxos apo botsalo se botsalo, kai mia les "bud", mia "er" kai
3exnas to
"wei", e? ti sxesh exei?
" enas tropos
> > uparxei na ftia3eis maregka kai einai autos. (eipa egw)
>
> Gia ekshghse mou ton. Kai aporripse mou me episthmologika krithria tis
> alles "maregkes"." (kai les esu)
ston e3hghsa wraiotata. me ton tropo exeis problhma? ap'oti blepw oxi. me ti
exeis problhma? me
to oti h 8ewria pairnei ws dedomeno oti o anagnwsths tou tselemente 3erei poio
einai to apsradi
kai poio to krokadi? ti se peirazei, dhl;adh, to epipedo gnwshs pou
proupoti8etai oti exeis gia
na diabaseis syntages? h to oti den exoume oloi to idio epipedo morfwshs?
kai en pasei periptwsei stamata na zhtas epikouries ka8e treis kai ligo, monos
sou de mporeis
na pai3eis?
L.
>
Costa Flocas
[SMTP:Yiannis....@UCHSC.EDU] wrote:
> Miso lepto, kati eida twra sth nougia twn zartierwn tou Prwtopapa.
^^^^^^^^^^
Pantws, apo... zartieres DEN 3ereis Iwannh. "Ougia" einai, oxi
"Nougia"... ;-)))
cf
George Bobolos
>> ^^^^^^^^^^
> Pantws, apo... zartieres DEN 3ereis Iwannh. "Ougia" einai, oxi
> "Nougia"... ;-)))
> cf
Ki' esu pou 3ereis apo ougies mwrn gargalompirmpiliara ek 8essalovikns ???
Afou n dikn sou n ougia eivai movimws skismevn !!!!!
giwrgos
UG. Avte, kalws sas brnka .....
Yola Georgiadou
>> Iwannh, gia thn Poimenikh pws topo0eteisai ws Koutalos? Einai h Poimenikh
>> (kai sugkekrimena h eidikothta ths Nomadikhs) susthma gnwshs?
>Auta na prosexeis pws ta les, giati tou Prwtopapa tour0e tamplas. Akouse
>Nomadikh, Nomadology, tour0e suneirmos Ntelez-Gkatarri, fragkoi, galloi
>imposture intellectuels, kai ntoup, parton katw... Krata to Poimenikh san
>sun0hmatiko kai pame.
Dustuxws mphka arga sto nhma ths suzhthshs. An mporeis na kaneis mia
perilhpsh twn 0ewsewn sas xrhsimopoiwntas paradeigmata
apo thn oikokurikh h' mageirikh sou uposxomai na sou siderwsw th foustanela
mia fora.....
>To shmantiko ths Poimenikhs (opws psilolene ki oi -- mh diabazeis
>Prwtopapa, einai XXX -- Deleuze-Guattari) einai o deterritorialized
>(ellhniko bre paidia?) xarakthras ths.
Auto to "deterritorialised" san le3h prwth fora to akouw. Thn xrhsimopoioun
kai
alloi...eh....ereunhtes auth th le3h h' thn dhmiourghses esu?
Deconstructed territorialisation = deterritorialisation, e? Wraia einai
pantws...
th xrhsimopoihsa shmera se mia suzhthsh kai emeina polu euxaristhmenh
me ton antiktupo pou prokalese :-)
>H poimenikh den exei tetoia problhmata, tetoia oria,
>tetoia kloubia, kai den exei bebaia kai susthmatopoihmenh gnwsh. Ama
>susthmatopoih0ei den einai pleon poimenikh. To an kapoios/a katalhgei
>agroths 'h nomas poimhn einai 0ema epiloghs bebaia.
Einai 0ema epiloghs? Kala den einai 0ema kontisioninkg? :-)
>giannhs
Y
Yiannis Koutalos
> bre iwannh, ti sxesh exei h organwsh tou susthmatos me to na eisai se 8esh
> na krineis or8a mia
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ma poios leei kai apofasizei kai diatassei POIA einai h "or0h krish"??
Egw lew oti auth h krish ginetai kai ma0ainetai mesa apo koinwnikes
diadikasies, se sxesh bebaia me tis empeiries pou paragoun oi
me0odologies.
> 3ekolla re Giannh, to'pame auto, uparxei koinwniko stoixeio,
> p a m e p a r a k a t w
Pou? To mono parakatw einai to apotelesma ths koinwnikopolitikhs
diadikasias. Dedomenou tou koinwnikou stoixeiou h koubenta pleon proxwrei
sthn ekdhmokratikopoihsh ths episthmhs aneu 0ematofulakwn ths
episthmologias.
> ti les re giannh? pou ta diabases auta mesa stis protaseis mou?exeis dei
> pote sou na proteinei
> kapoios kainourgia me8odo gia kati? obviously 8a exeis dei, an mh ti allo,
etsi proxwrame, me
> kainourgia, kalutera kai 8aumasterotera.
> einai pote dunaton na krinei kapoios mia me8odo dixws
> krithria austhra proka8orismena?
Ma h me0odos krinetai me bash tou kata poso prow0ei ta sumferonta, to
prestiz, thn xrhmatodothsh, klp tou ka0e episthmona pou thn krinei. Auta
einai ta austhra proka0orismena krithria me bash ta opoia krinetai h
me0odos. Etsi kai bgaleis auta ta koinwnika apo th mesh, to mono pou sou
menei einai oi zartieres tou Prwtopapa.
> mpas kai nomizeis oti oloi kanoume kritikh san tou
> xartzoulakh, pou h apanthsh tou einai "etsi"?
Fusika oxi. Giauto kai fainetai perifhma sta episthmonika papers poious
glufei o suggrafeas, poious ftunei, ti lagous me petraxhlia tazei (etsi
nte, gia na kri0ei austhra h me0odos), ti pisines krataei gia to ti mporei
kai ti den mporei na kanei h me0odos 'h thn isxu twn apotelesmatwn, kai
alla tetoia.
> pame sto paradeigma.
> ti zhtame? na baloume DNA 3eno (auto shmainei transfection) se ena kuttaro. ws
ta twra auto
> ginetai sunh8ws me to na baloume to DNA pou 8eloume mesa se enan io, kai meta
na molunoume to
> kuttaro me ton io, opote 8a parei to kuttaro mas to DNA apo ton io, 8a to
enwsei me to diko tou
> kai 8a exoume to epizhtoumeno apotelesma. Pws krinoume oti h prospa8eia na
kanoume transfection
> petyxe? analuoume to DNA tou kuttarou kai blepoume oti mphke h den mphke.
Autos einai enas
> tropos. Yparxoune kai alloi (liposwmata, xrhsh hlektrismou klp). Erxesai esu
twra kai les, ma
> ti duskolh auth h me8odos, egw 8a brw mia allh. Kai kataferneis
xrhsimopoiwntas ena dialumma me
> moustarda na peraseis to DNA pou 8es mesa sto kuttaro sou. An to apotelesma
sou einai valid and
> reproducible exoume mia nea me8odo. Pws xwra edw mesa h trith h makruterh, de
mou les?
H apodoxh ths neas me0odou eksartatai apo to kata poso ikanopoiountai ta
krithria pou psiloanafera parapanw. Ekei einai pou xwraei kai kolumpaei h
trith kai makruterh.
> erwthsh:
> pou exeis problhma me ta antikeimenika krithria? exeis mpourdouklw8ei me
> to oti to ti einai
> antikeimeniko to exei orisei kapoios pou 8elei na fainetai to apotelesma
> me ton alfa tropo, ara
> ti einai antikeimeniko e3uphretei panta (skoteinous) sugkekrimenous skopous.
> rwtw, loipon: blepontas oti ebales to DNA sou mesa sto kuttaro me thn
> southern pou 8a kaneis,
> ti den einai antikeimeniko, ti skopo e3uphretei to apotelesma, kai ti exeis
> na antiproteineis?
Eksartatai se poiounou ton kalo patas me th nea me0odo ('h oxi),
eksartatai to poious boleuei 'h oxi h nea me0odos (les na fthnhnoun oi
me0odes transfection? aaaammaaaaan..., ki exw metoxes sthn...if you get
my drift)
> ston e3hghsa wraiotata. me ton tropo exeis problhma? ap'oti blepw oxi. me ti
exeis problhma? me
> to oti h 8ewria pairnei ws dedomeno oti o anagnwsths tou tselemente 3erei
> poio einai to apsradi
> kai poio to krokadi?
Kai pws to ema0e mpre o anagnwsths poio einai to aspradi kai poio to
krokadi?
giannhs
Lida Anestidou
eisai h agrupnh suneidhsh tou marx?
(aporia prwtou apanthsw sth suntrofikh kathzhsh tou keimenou sou)
L.
Lida Anestidou
grafei o Iwannhs:
Yiannis Koutalos wrote:
> Ma poios leei kai apofasizei kai diatassei POIA einai h "or0h krish"??
> Egw lew oti auth h krish ginetai kai ma0ainetai mesa apo koinwnikes
> diadikasies, se sxesh bebaia me tis empeiries pou paragoun oi
> me0odologies.
parembalw allh protash, giati mou fainetai pws denoun 8ematikws:
"
Kai pws to ema0e mpre o anagnwsths poio einai to aspradi kai poio to
krokadi?"
telika, nomizw pws arxisa na bgazw akrh. to problhma sou einai taytoshmo me to
erwthma: h kota ekane to augo h to augo thn kota?
exeis problhma me tis diadikasies, mono pou autes xronologika pane pisw aiwnes.
ti
na kanoume, bre Giannh, twra? ka8e erwthsh sou "poios, giati" mas parapempei
sthn
istoria kai th filosofia ths episthmhs, mexri na ftasoume ston homo neaderthal,
o
opoios den eixe episthmh kai etsi htan paneutyxhs. rwtas gia to aspradi: ok, pws
ema8es anagnwsh bre Giannh? giati o tselementes upo8etei oti o anagnwsths tou
3erei
anagnwsh? se diabebaiw, katalabainw apoluta tous endiasmous sou, alla peran ths
koubentas gia thn koubenta, de nomizw pws uparxoun apanthseis (ektos an h
morfwsh
mou einai elleiphs kai petaxtei kapoios kai me tapwsei).
suzhtas parakatw gia ekdhmokratismo ths episthmhs.
para8eteis ena swro koubentes gia ton ntaba kai ka8e ntaba, kai pws o nearos
en8ousiwdhs ereunhths parasyretai ston kukaiwna tou antagwnismou, entexna
w8eitai na
ereunhsei auta pou 8eloun oi ntabades kai na dei thn pragmatikothta me to diko
tous
mati. well, 8a me peis afelh, alla den exw tetoies martyries apo ton mikrokosmo
mou. tis blepw tis antirrhseis sou hdh: einai mikrokosmos, giauto kai den
doneitai,
h eimai egw poly mikro psari gia na asxolh8ei kaneis na me epanaferei sthn ta3h,
h
exw galouxh8ei toso entexna, pou eimai eytyxhs me ayta pou kanw ara de zhtw
beltiwseis. 8a mou epitrepseis na amfiballw. esu, bebaia, akoma kai thn upar3h
twn
bioethics 8a th 8ewrhseis ws dolwma tou ntaba pros mia katey8unsh xwris
kosmogonikes
dunatothtes metabolwn tou susthmatos. an einai omws etsi h optikh sou gwnia,
tote
tipote apo osa asxoleisai de 8a se gemizei. 8a psaxneis panta na breis to caveat
ka8e prospa8eias kai na xtypiesai (opws to psari pou to bgalane apo to nero)
mexri
8anatou gia na estiaseis sthn koinwnikh upokrisia pou brisketai pisw apo authn.
mporei na exeis esu dikio, kai oloi emeis na eimaste pei8hnia organa mias
teleias
sunomwsias. to mono pou exw na sou pw einai oti peran tou na kratw mia
uposhmeiwsh
sthn akrh tou mualoy mou gia auth thn pi8anothta, arnoumai na katadikasw ayta
pou me
gemizoun logw ths upopsias oti einai ftiaxta. an 8ewrhsw oti zoume to 1984 se
olo
tou to megaleio, 8a prepei h na monasw h na autoktonhsw. ela omws pou de
8elw.....
Lhda
Athanassios Protopapas
Prwtov, dev exoume ekte9ei se koivn bibliografia. Basika ekeivos pou
exei ekte9ei (mparoufes gar) eisai esu. Kai ws ek toutou ek9etos pleov.
Oso gia tn bibliografia kata pasa pi9avotnta dev exw diabasei oute to eva
dekato ap'osa exeis diabasei esu, kai ap'ta upoloipa evvia dekata twv oxtw
de skopeuw va dw oute to e3wfullo (exoume kai douleies kai plakes va kavoume).
Deuterov, n epistnmn dev upokeitai se ekdnmokratismo. De voeitai (ektos
mesa stn 9oln kai diestrammevn evallaktikn sou pragmatikotnta) va ynfisoume
gia to av uparxouv nlektrovia n' oxi kai ti spiv kai fortio exouve. Dedome-
vou oti n avtikeimevikn pragmatikotnta eivai mia kai movadikn kai ws epistnmoves
yaxvoume va tn broume, suvepagetai oti oi apavtnseis se ola ta erwtnmata
xwrizovtai se duo katngories: tis swstes kai tis lav9asmeves. Kai n katata3n
autn eivai ave3artntn twv protimnsewv tou laou (sumperilambavomevwv twv epi-
stnmovwv). Suvepws n evvoia tns dnmokratias eivai ka9'ola 3evn pros tnv
epistnmn kai tis veomar3istikes sou avnsuxies va tis baleis ekei pou 3ereis
(filia kai stov Paulo pou toso evoxleitai apo tnv upar3n avtikeimevika swstns
apavtnsns). Gi'auto xreiazomaste epistnmologiko kai oxi dnmokratiko kritnrio
(to xaba mou egw :-)).
0a elega kai kati sto Xartzoulakn, mn leei oti tov paramelw, alla dev eida
va apavtnse se tipota opote me lupn mou perimevw epomevo mnvuma me piotero
yaxvo va dagkwsoume kai meis oi or9ologistes katitis.
0avasns
-allou-