Jeff Harris' post

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Sam Damon

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May 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/13/96
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> Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 07:45:27 -0700
> From: Jeff Harris <je...@aa.net>
> Subject: Re: Seattle Gay Pride Includes NAMBLA
>
> You don't want a debate on NAMBLA, but you will dismiss my arguements with a
> vague generalization? Why not refute my arguments with your so called
> scientific evidence, instead of claiming they are wrong in a blanket
> statement, Sam? What exactly do you mean, Sam? Please, be specific!
> [ ... ]
> Since you didn't explain, Sam, I have to ask. Are you saying that you have
> studied this matter and have come to the conclusion that coercive sex, and
> childhood sexual abuse is not traumatic for its victims? If you are, I want
> to know the name and address of your clinic so that I can alert anyone
> seeking help for childhood sexual abuse to go elsewhere for support.

Out of respect for Roger, GayNet and myself, I will not respond to this
hysterical mischaracterization of my post.


Jeff Harris

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May 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/13/96
to

Sam Damon pontificates:

>> Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 07:45:27 -0700
>> From: Jeff Harris <je...@aa.net>
>> Subject: Re: Seattle Gay Pride Includes NAMBLA
>>

>> You don't want a debate on NAMBLA, but you will dismiss my arguments with a


>> vague generalization? Why not refute my arguments with your so called
>> scientific evidence, instead of claiming they are wrong in a blanket
>> statement, Sam? What exactly do you mean, Sam? Please, be specific!
>> [ ... ]
>> Since you didn't explain, Sam, I have to ask. Are you saying that you have
>> studied this matter and have come to the conclusion that coercive sex, and
>> childhood sexual abuse is not traumatic for its victims? If you are, I want
>> to know the name and address of your clinic so that I can alert anyone
>> seeking help for childhood sexual abuse to go elsewhere for support.
>
>Out of respect for Roger, GayNet and myself, I will not respond to this
>hysterical mischaracterization of my post.

You make vague, inflammatory and condescending criticisms of my posts
with blanket judgments. You dismiss my concerns about child abuse and my
questions and requests for clarifications as hysterical. Then, when I
demand that you support your post by revealing this special professional
knowledge that you have claimed to have, you refuse. You say you don't need
to explain ..."out of respect...". What shall we conclude?

In the future, when you so carelessly dismiss concerns about child abuse and
and write so generously about NAMBLA doing no harm in the New York gay pride
parade, I hope you will supply the facts to back up those claims. I don't
know about all of New York's parades, but contrary to what your claim that
NAMBLA has marched in New York and nothing happened, the _official_
Stonewall 25 Parade in New York would not allow NAMBLA to march with them.
Sam, you also claimed that NAMBLA is undeniably part of the Gay Community.
As a gay man I take exception to that. I hope whenever you makes such rash
statements in the future that you will include an honest disclaimer in the
next sentence that you are not gay. After all, anytime you want, when people
start claiming gay men molest children, when things get dangerous, you have
another option; you can quit playing with the queers and can return to the
safety of your heterosexual marriage with all of its priveleges. Let's get
this right, NAMBLA is NOT part of the gay community; promoting coerced sex
between old men and young children has nothing to do with consentual
relations between adults of the same sex.

The immediate political damage from NAMBLA's inclusion in Seattle is
devastating. All of the public officials who usually march in the parade,
the mayor, city council members, the police chief, state legislators, as
well as PFLAG and progressive church groups have said they will not March
if NAMBLA marches. They have announced that they will not be associated with
anyone advocating the exploitation of children. (PFLAG has a national policy
that prohibits its organization members from participating in events with
groups like NAMBLA that promote exploiting children.) In addition, PFLAG'S
revised national media campaign that draws attention to the tremendous
damage done by inflammatory, abusive anti-gay religious political
extremists, is scheduled for a pilot run here in June. Now, instead of the
local media discussing the radical-right's abuse of gay teens, they will be
discussing inclusion of NAMBLA the group the promotes sex between men and
children in the gay pride parade.

The motives of the person from NAMBLA who is insisting on inclusion also
have to be questioned. He has said that he will "destroy the gay community"
if the parade committee doesn't include him. Now, there is a statement in
support of gay pride! He has said he will sue. Fortunately the Seattle Human
Rights Commission's attorney has written an opinion that because of the
recent Supreme Court Ruling on Boston's St. Patrick's Day, the FDC can
exclude anyone if their message is in conflict with the organizers message.

With or without NAMBLA, child abuse is a serious issue because of its long
term deeplky hurtful effects on individual lives, our families and our
community. It deserves serious attention.


Sam Damon

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May 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/13/96
to Roger B.A. Klorese

You can rant and rave, and take out your unresolved anger all you want but
I'm not going to bite. As per the request of Roger among others, I am not
going to discuss this with you. I am, however, having some enlightening
rational discussions on this topic with a few other GayNetters in private.
This will be my last message to you on this matter. Bait away...

> Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 10:08:17 -0700
> From: Jeff Harris <je...@aa.net>
> Subject: Re: Jeff Harris' post

Roy Radow

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May 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/14/96
to bit-lists...@uunet.uu.net

je...@aa.net (Jeff Harris) writes:

[...]

>Stonewall 25 Parade in New York would not allow NAMBLA to march with them.

And here is a partial listing of GLBTO people and organizations that
signed a petition in support of NAMBLA's participation in the march.
*********************************

ACT UP/Minnesota; Anti-Fascist Network; Anti-Sexism
Campaign; Antler, poet; Isabel Aktypi, teacher, gay
activist, gymnast; Max Allen, radio producer and anti-censorship
activist; Dean W Amundson, AIDS/gay activist and Minnesota
Attorney General candidate; Robert Bahr, founder/president
Factor Press; Baltimore Gay Alliance; Tim Barrus, writer;
Robert S Basker, founder Mattachine Midwest (Chicago) and
Dade County Committee for Human Rights; Chris Bearchell,
writer and former editor, Body Politic; James Becker, founder
Baltimore Gay Community Center; The Body Image Factory;
Dennis Bejin, leather activist; Joe Bordo, activist, writer, and
hairdresser; Andreas Bosshard, teacher; Susie Bright, write
and activist; Cormack Brissett, Wisconsin/Minnesota gay
youth activist; Edward Brongersma, writer; Michael
Bronski, writer; Steven Brophy, activist; John Burnside,
Radical Faeries; Judith Butler, professor, UC Berkeley;
Timothy Buttercup, Radical Faeries; Michel Caignet, editor,
Gaie France; Pat Califia, writer and activist; Bob Chatelle,
writer and political issues chair, National Writers Union UAW 1981
AFL/CIO; Joseph Collins, co-founder Institute for Food
Development Policy, board member International Gay and Lesbian
Human Rights Commission; Julie Davids, Queer Slut Collective;
James D'Entremont, playwright and activist, Boston Coalition
for Freedom of Expression; Gavin Dillard, poet, artist, publisher,
Bhakti Books; Bill Dobbs, gay and AIDS activist; James
Dubro, author, TV documentary producer, president, Crime
Writers of Canada; Stephen Durham, Freedom Socialist Party;
Casimir Elsen, former Flemish ILGA Support Group; Kevin
Esser, author; Feminists Against Censorship; Freedom
Socialist Party; Don Fox, writer for Out, Pittsburgh;
Frighten the Horses; Front dUAlliberament Gai de
Catalunya; Gaie France; Gayme magazine; Robert
Giard, photographer; John Gilgun, writer and professor; Allen
Ginsberg, poet; Thomas J Gobel, activist; Keith Griffith,
editor, Steam magazine; The Guide; Cris Gutierrez, Frighten
the Horses co-publisher; Robert W Halfhill, secretary-
treasurer, ACT UP/Minnesota; Harry Hay, Mattachine Society
founder, and Radical Faerie Political Network; Gabby Haze,
writer, RFD magazine; Nicholas Heer, early New York
Mattachine Society; Jesse Heiwa, people of color queer activist,
!Outrage!; Dick Hewetson, co-founder Quatrefoil Library; Liz A
Highleyman, writer, activist ACT UP/Boston and National Leather
Association and BINOT USA; Alexander P Hoffman, activist;
Edward Hougen, Fidelity Publishing; Margaret Hougen,
activist; Noni Howard, writer and activist; John Paul Hudson,
writer/founder Gay Celibates; MS Hunter, writer; Will Inman,
poet; Intermale Bookstore; Russell Johannesson,
activist; James L Kelly, Lambda Amateur Radio Club; Hubert
Kennedy, writer and researcher for Center for Research and
Education in Sexuality of San Francisco State University;
Shannon Thomas Kennedy, anti-censorship activist and
artist; Lee W Kikuchi, activist; Kevin Killian, author of Shy
and Bedrooms Have Windows; Gay Kinsman, writer and activist,
author of The Regulation of Desire; Kit Kraysha,
lesbian/bi/leather activist; Kiyoshi Kuromiya, editor, Critical
Path AIDS Project; Toshiya Kuwabara, activist and writer
Newsletter on Civil Liberties; Garland Richard Kyle, editor and
publisher, Modern Words; John Kyper, writer; Marian Larkin,
activist, Radical Women; Michael J Lavery, former general
counsel Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund; Scott Lee
Lawrence, activist; Lesbian and Gay Freedom
Movement; Donald H Mader, photographer and writer; Matt
Marco, gay youth activist; Christine Martin, filmmaker,
actress; John Mitzel, writer, Fag Rag and The Guide; Jearald
Moldenhauer, gay/lesbian bookseller, Glad Day Books; Debbie
Nathan, writer; Newell Neal, HIV-team nurse; Harold Norse,
writer; John O'Brien, Stonewall rebellion participant, co-founder
of NYC Gay Liberation Front; International Gay and Lesbian
Archives; Scott O'Hara, publisher and editor Steam magazine;
On Our Backs; Glennda Orgasm, filmmaker and drag
activist; Richard Osborne, activist; Outpunk; !Outrage!;
Joseph SJ Owens, priest; Camille Paglia, writer and
professor of humanities; Denia Papanikolaov, graphic artist;
Joe Peacott, Boston Anarchist Drinking Brigade; Michael
Petrelis, activist ACT-UP/DC; Anthony Petrucci, poet;
Felice Picano, writer; Pink Triangle Press; Nettie
Pollard, co-wrote Pornography and Feminism: The Case Against
Censorship; Ken Popert, Executive Director Pink Triangle Press;
Mark Pritchard, Frighten the Horses co-publisher; Queers
with Attitude; Radical Women; Brian Ramey, art director,
Philadelphia Gay News; Tom Reeves, writer and peace/justice
activist; Vicki Richman, NY local, National Writers Union;
Burghard Richter, activist, VSG Munich; Michael Roberts,
writer and teacher; Laurence Roberts, editor, Holy Titclamps;
Bradley Rose, activist; Rotunda Press, fat womenUs freedom
press; Gayle Rubin, writer and activist; Theo Sandfort,
psychologist; Gregory C Schott, activist; Sarah Schulman,
writer and activist; Michael Schumann, Queers With Attitude;
David Scondras, former Boston City Councilor; Larry Seitz,
architect; Wolfram Setz, activist, BVH Berlin (German
gay/lesbian group); Christopher Shefler, activist; Charley
Shively, editor of Fag Rag; Luke Sissyfag, Washington DC
mayoral candidate; Julia Smedley, activist Stonewall Now! and
Love and Rage; Steam magazine; Stephen J Smith, AIDS
activist; Sylvia Stevens, lesbian activist; TEG, writer and
editor, Bundle of Sticks; David Thorstad, writer and activist;
Trotskyist League; Dan Tsang, Asian-American gay activist
and writer; Scott Tucker, queer writer and socialist; Dean
Tuckerman, anarchist activist; Vereniging Martijn; Scott
Vincent, activist, writer, and hairdresser; French Wall, editor,
The Guide magazine; Peter Wall, former coordinator, Auckland,
New Zealand Gay Task Force; Rod J Williams, activist; Walter
Williams, professor of anthropology USC and author of The Spirit
and the Flesh; Phil Willkie, publisher James White Review; John
Wilson, president, Kimeta Society; Karen Winter, lesbian
activist; Matt Wobensmith, Outpunk magazine and records;
Ian Young, writer; John Zeh, writer, activist, and others.

In Liberation,

Roy

--
Roy Radow * Now: ra...@netcom.com * (was: r...@panix.com)
North American Man/Boy Love Association -For membership info & brochure
write to: NAMBLA, Dept. RR, PO Box 174, Midtown Station, NYC, NY 10018.
Send $5 a for sample Bulletin. Publications list available upon request.

Jeff Harris

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May 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/14/96
to

That person from NAMBLA wrote:

>And here is a partial listing of GLBTO people and organizations that
>signed a petition in support of NAMBLA's participation in the march.

......list and advertising for NAMBLA deleted


I notice that among the supporters on NAMBLA's list from their failed
attempt for inclusion in New York's Stonewall Parade is Luke Sissyfag and
Pat Califia. Luke has resumed use of his real name, Montgomery, and has
denounced the gay community, joined an ex-gay ministry and now claims that
he is not gay. Pat Califia is a self proclaimed expert on sex needs to be
told that if it draws blood, it's not sex.

I also notice that there are no representatives of any organizations that
work to prevent domestic violence, child abuse and the exploitation of
children. There are no psycho-therapists. Nor are there any currently
elected public officials, or current leaders in any gay and lesbian civil
rights groups like the Lambda or the NGLTF on this list. I can only hope
that those who signed the list will be educated about long term effects of
child abuse and the huge price we pay. I believe that gay men and women are
becoming more, not less sensitive, to this important issue.

Obviously, there are sound arguments to change unreasonable age of consent
laws Likewise there are many reasons to speak up against legal harassment of
sexually active teens. There are, perhaps, more effective ways to protect
children from sexual exploitation than age of consent laws. Perhaps stronger
laws against child abuse of all kinds would work better. We must be
absolutely clear about one thing; NAMBLA, which stands for the Man Boy Love
Association, has never indicated any interest in protecting children from
abuse. NAMBLA is not about allowing sexual freedom between gay teens. NAMBLA
promotes sex between children and adults. The problem with NAMBLA has
nothing to do with consentual sex and age of consent laws; the problem has
everything to do with coercive relationships in which men exploit teens
and younger boys. Child abuse is a serious issue and all we ever hear from
NAMBLA and its supporters is denial about this very serious mental health
and political problem.

The NAMBLA person who posted the list of NAMBLA supporters signed his post,
"in liberation". I find nothing liberating about the sexual exploitation of
children.


Patrick Ferris

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May 16, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/16/96
to

In <1996051407...@big.aa.net> je...@aa.net writes:

> Obviously, there are sound arguments to change unreasonable age of consent
> laws Likewise there are many reasons to speak up against legal harassment of
> sexually active teens. There are, perhaps, more effective ways to protect
> children from sexual exploitation than age of consent laws.

More irony. You've pretty much stated NAMBLA's position, here.
Especially that final sentence. The Dutch have an interesting
legal take. If a teen between 12 and 16 (I think those are the ages)
is having a relationship with someone, a charge can only be
brought if the teen or his/her parents complain. The relationship
is not illegal ipso facto. This at least allows some ability to
judge relationships on their individual qualities.

> Child abuse is a serious issue and all we ever hear from
> NAMBLA and its supporters is denial about this very serious mental health
> and political problem.

No it isn't, you just haven't been willing to listen. And
consequently, there isn't much point in discussing it with you.

Patrick F.

Sam Damon

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May 16, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/16/96
to

> Date: 16 May 1996 18:57:33 GMT
> From: Patrick Ferris <FER...@WUSTLB.WUSTL.EDU>

> Subject: Re: Jeff Harris' post
>
> > Obviously, there are sound arguments to change unreasonable age of
> > consent laws Likewise there are many reasons
> > harassment sexually active teens. There are, perhaps, more effective

> >ways to protect children from sexual exploitation than age of consent laws.
>
> More irony. You've pretty much stated NAMBLA's position, here.
> Especially that final sentence. The Dutch have an interesting
> legal take. If a teen between 12 and 16 (I think those are the ages)
> is having a relationship with someone, a charge can only be
> brought if the teen or his/her parents complain. The relationship
> is not illegal ipso facto. This at least allows some ability to
> judge relationships on their individual qualities.

Exactly, and as far as I remember, the system works. One good result of
this arrangement is that it can encourage discussion among parent and child
on sexual issues. The policy of sweeping-under-the-rug (aka simply make
illegal) in the US with respect to these relationships (as well as
homosexuality) does nothing to help children.

It is important to note also that heterosexuals in this country can marry as
young as 14 when consented by parents. (Jerry Lee Lewis' marriage is
perhaps the most famous case of this) Gays don't have such an option,
requiring to adhere to age of consent laws. The parental consent option is
a good one, in my opinion. It's certainly more enlightened than the
uninformed emotionally-based policy of all-such-relationships-are-bad.

> > Child abuse is a serious issue and all we ever hear from
> > NAMBLA and its supporters is denial about this very serious mental health
> > and political problem.
>
> No it isn't, you just haven't been willing to listen. And
> consequently, there isn't much point in discussing it with you.

Well said. I realized that a few messages ago, and hope you'd join me
ignoring him.

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