Total Annilhation is NOT a great game
Kevin Jenkins
resources can be harvested indefinitely, you will certainly consume them
faster than you aquire them. Good resource management is key to good play.
Simply having lots of construction units is self-defeating, because no unit
will finish as resources are split among all projects as they are received.
"Race to nukes and aircraft" is outright wrong, as putting that much energy
and metal into building those bases will leave you vulnerable to an opponent
who instead builds troops. Nor are nukes or aircraft overly powerful
anyway. TA requires exquisite balance between troop production, base
upgrades, production upgrades, and defenses as well as fitting this into
your long range strategies. Of course, the complex slew of standard RTSG
strategies also apply. .Claiming TA has minimal strategy solely because "YOU
CAN'T RUN OUT OF RESOURCES!!!!" indicates you jumped to a unwarranted
conclusion based on minimal and incorrect evidence. I don't mind a
dissenting opinion, but you should give accurate facts (I didn't play it
much but it was too complex) instead of creating reasons to try to make your
argument stronger..
-----Original Message-----
From: Jamie Moore <jmo...@AQUASMART.COM.AU>
To: Multiple recipients of list GAMES-L <GAM...@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 11:13 PM
Subject: Re: Total Annilhation is NOT a great game
>Hello to all TA Lovers,
>
>Sorry to burst the "TA fan club" bubble. But like every general opinion
>there is always someone who disagrees, and that's me. Let me give you
>a review of the RTS games I've played
>
>
>Game OutA10 Overview
>Dune2 10/10* The Game that wasted a lot of my
>life
>Warcraft 8/10 Another Great game...and
>you could SERIAL LINK!!!!
>Warcraft2 5/10 Not a great improvement
>over it's little brother...subs were fun though
>Command and Conquer 6/10 Good game but engineers spoilt
>it really for multiplayer
>Total Annihilation 2/10 One Crap game...I will go into
>detail in a sec.
>Dark Reign 8/10 Cool game, just because
>it showed how crap TA was.
>Starcraft 10/10 The Game that is wasting
>my Life now.
>
>All scores are at the time I played them, Dune2 doesn't have a good
>interface anymore. Click and drag and all that stuff you need to play.
>Dune2 would probably rate as low as TA these days.
>
> Well about TA:
>
>1: The Computer AI cheats, It can see further than it should.
>2: The range of units is way way way way too long
>3: It is difficult to control the units
>4: The interface response is slow(on p133)when in large battle
>5: Games go on for WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY to long multiplier
>6: It's a race to aircraft, or a race to nukes, strategy is
>minimal, since...
>7: YOU CAN'T RUN OUT OF RESOURCES!!!!
>
>Anyway I can't be stuffed witting anymore and most people think
>differently anyway. But just so you know TA isn't the best game in the
>universe.
>
>
>Regards TA Hater\
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Jamie Moore
Dave Weaver
>Sorry to burst the "TA fan club" bubble. But like every general opinion
>there is always someone who disagrees, and that's me.
The word "opinion" is the key word here - everyone has their own.
>Let me give you a review of the RTS games I've played
OK. Let's compare opinions..
>Game OutA10 Overview
>Dune2 10/10* The Game that wasted a lot of my life
I think... 9/10 Great game
>Warcraft 8/10 Another Great game...and you could SERIAL
LINK!!!!
I think... 7/10 Ditto
>Warcraft2 5/10 Not a great improvement over it's little
brother...
> subs were fun though
I think... 9/10 Better than the first one.
>Command and Conquer 6/10 Good game but engineers spoilt
> it really for multiplayer
I think... 9/10 A classic (looks a bit 'old fashioned' now
though).
>Total Annihilation 2/10 One Crap game...I will go into
> detail in a sec.
I think... 10/10 The best of it's kind (see below).
>Dark Reign 8/10 Cool game, just because
> it showed how crap TA was.
I think... N/A I never played this one.
>Starcraft 10/10 The Game that is wasting
> my Life now.
I think... 9/10 Superb game, but a limited number of units.
> Well about TA:
>
>1: The Computer AI cheats, It can see further than it should.
I don't find this a problem, for several reasons:
a. The multiplayer game is all I play now.
b. I didn't find it impossible to finish the single-player game.
>2: The range of units is way way way way too long
This is what I love about TA - there is such a wide range of units
to select from that you can play may diverse strategies.
>3: It is difficult to control the units
A matter of personal opinion. I find there's a lot less rushing around
between units and factories in TA because of the order queue system. The
other unit controls (e.g selecting and grouping units) are the same as
C&C and most clones to date.
>4: The interface response is slow(on p133)when in large battle
That doesn't make the game crap, it just shows that you need an upgrade! :)
>5: Games go on for WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY to long multiplier
Big map = long game.
Small map = short game.
Personally I like long games. I love building up a solid defence, and
watching wave after wave of enemy attacks fall. Big maps do it for me!
>6: It's a race to aircraft, or a race to nukes,
A handful of rocket turrets and AA units sort out attacking aircraft.
And an anti-nuke is always a priority. You can get one built before
your opponent builds a nuke launcher.
I think it all depends on your opponents too - my regular opponents
know that I like to nuke, so they build anti-nukes. I know they like
aircraft, so I build an early AA defence.
>strategy is
>minimal, since...
>7: YOU CAN'T RUN OUT OF RESOURCES!!!!
I don't see how unlimited resources reduces strategy.
>Anyway I can't be stuffed witting anymore and most people think
>differently anyway. But just so you know TA isn't the best game in the
>universe.
As you say, most people think differently (witness the number of
emails to the list from TA supports versus the number of emails from
people who disklike TA). At the end of the day some people dislike what
others like - it's all a matter of opinion.
To the original poster (if you're still reading) - yes TA is (IMHO) a
great example of the Real-Time-Strategy genre, and I consider it well
worth the money (especially if you're planning on multiplayer games).
It's worth noting that the "follow-up" TA Kingdoms is due out very
soon, and looks equally interesting (can't wait!).
>Regards TA Hater
Hate is such a strong emotion. Are you sure "TA disliker" might not be
more appropriate? :)
Cheers,
Dave.
Lynn Moncrief
>Hello to all TA Lovers,
>
>a review of the RTS games I've played
Hi Jamie,
Great message, despite the fact I disagree with some of it (below). :-)
>Game OutA10 Overview
>Dune2 10/10* The Game that wasted a lot of my
>life
I haven't played Dune 2, but I played and reviewed Dune 2000. (I'll post my
review of it in a separate post, but suffice it to say that I thought it
sucked.) ;-D
>Warcraft 8/10 Another Great game...and
>you could SERIAL LINK!!!!
I agree. We played it multiplayer a lot on our home network (though not via
serial link). It's one of the few games we got to run using IPX protocol.
(Most games seem to prefer TCP/IP despite supposedly supporting IPX.) It
was also nicely "hackable", which hubby and I did with gusto. ;-D
>Warcraft2 5/10 Not a great improvement
>over it's little brother...subs were fun though
Hmmm. I liked Warcraft2, even better than the original. Playing it and
making maps for it consumed a lot of my life for months. Plus, I had a
world of fun creating maps where, by tweaking unit hit points, I could do
weird things like populate islands with 6000-hit point skeletons and
critters, then let the frag fest begin. ;-D
>Command and Conquer 6/10 Good game but engineers spoilt
>it really for multiplayer
In what way? My husband and I still play this one multiplayer as recently
as within the past week. And right now, we're in a killer battle (which we
paused at 4am last night) in C&C: Red Alert--The Aftermath. :-)
>Total Annihilation 2/10 One Crap game...I will go into
>detail in a sec.
>Dark Reign 8/10 Cool game, just because
>it showed how crap TA was.
This is a cool game. Like TA, terrain has a decided effect on strategy, but
I wouldn't agree that it showed how "crappy" TA was. ;-D The map editor is
cool, too, BTW.
>Starcraft 10/10 The Game that is wasting
>my Life now.
Hehehe. I've only temporarily paused from playing Starcraft, especially
Brood War. I just hope my nephew gets a new modem soon so we can try going
toe-to-toe again over BattleNet.
>
>All scores are at the time I played them, Dune2 doesn't have a good
>interface anymore. Click and drag and all that stuff you need to play.
>Dune2 would probably rate as low as TA these days.
I think Westwood is going downhill. They went from trailblazing greatness
with C&C, Red Alert and Dune2 (apparently, according to its large
following) down to the pits with Dune 2000 and Lands of Lore III (which I
tried to post my review of yesterday, but it bounced because it was too
long). I hope they'll redeem themselves with C&C: Tiberian Sun, which my
husband and I have been eagerly awaiting. If they blow this one, I'll stop
buying Westwood's games.
>
> Well about TA:
>
>1: The Computer AI cheats, It can see further than it should.
I never noticed the AI cheating in this way. If you want to see a blatantly
cheating AI, play any of Westwood's RTS games. It really cheats in Dune2K.
Every single time I tried to send a stealth unit into an enemy base, the AI
would either move an infantry unit--which can detect them--directly into
their path or suddenly send a tank out to crush them. Yet, these units are
supposedly invisible to tanks. In Red Alert skirmishes, even on huge maps,
the AI is right in rushing your base within the first few minutes, being it
knows where you are but you don't know where it is. Plus, when playing
multiple AIs that are enemies among themselves, it constantly
simultaneously attacks on two fronts--too often to be coincidence. My
husband has also noticed the AI cheating in C&C in various ways. Westwood
is really good for contriving difficulty artificial difficulty in its games
and that sucks. Its AI is real good for attacking parts of your base that
it hasn't explored and shouldn't know about in almost all its games. (Then,
after you fend off the initial rushes, the AI just totally wimps out, which
also sucks.) I haven't seen any of these problems with the AI in TA, at
least not in terms of cheating.
>2: The range of units is way way way way too long
If you make your own maps, you can set the gravity for a particular world.
Higher values decrease the range of powerful artillery units like Big
Bertha, etc.
>3: It is difficult to control the units
In what way?
>4: The interface response is slow(on p133)when in large battle
I haven't tried it on a p133, but I'm sure you're right about this.
I better split this into two parts so it doesn't bounce back as too long.
Lynn
***********************************
Lynn Moncrief
(tech...@pacbell.net)
“Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.” -unknown
***********************************
Dan Bigman
a bargain bin or something. So you don't like TA? Oh well... to each his
own.
I disagree on a couple of things:
1) I didn't find control at all hard. It was very intuitive and easy. Kinda
like WC1 and 2
2) I don't think the game is meant to be played in a P133.
So the AI cheats a bit... I think it tries to make up for it's lack of
planning and narrow strategy.
> 6: It's a race to aircraft, or a race to nukes, strategy is
> minimal, since...
> 7: YOU CAN'T RUN OUT OF RESOURCES!!!!
Isn't that a strategy in itself?
>
> Anyway I can't be stuffed witting anymore and most people think
> differently anyway. But just so you know TA isn't the best game in the
> universe.
I'm sure it isn't. But once again, that's your opinion.
Dan
Lynn Moncrief
>5: Games go on for WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY to long multiplier
>6: It's a race to aircraft, or a race to nukes, strategy is
>minimal, since...
The race to nukes, etc. is part of almost any RTS game, IMHO. But TA has
strategic elements that are missing from other RTS games. For example, I
like to keep forward deploying my units, preferably to the center of the
map, so I can bring Big Bertha to bear and wipe out a lot of the map when
playing against multiple AI players. No other game I know of has such
powerful long-range artillery for both sides (except nukes which take a
long time to recharge.)
>7: YOU CAN'T RUN OUT OF RESOURCES!!!!
That's one of the things I like about TA. Resource management in some other
RTS games (especially Westwood's) can be a tedious exercise in
micromanagement, chasing down wayward harvesters blundering into enemy
territory, having to incessantly build silos while in the heat of battle,
etc. BTW, Dark Reign's resources are infinite, too. :-) In Starcraft, I've
even created maps with numerous huge mineral fields, etc. and part of the
strategy, of course, is denying them to the enemy (as in TA and other RTS
games). Infinite resources don't mean anything when one side or the other
denies access to them and starves the other side out. Limited resources,
OTOH, leads to situations like the one my husband and I are in where both
of us are stalemated, neither of us strong enough to wipe out the other,
while waiting for the ore to regrow. :-) That's also an interesting
situation, especially being that we each have managed to totally deny the
other access to each other's ore fields. So, the availability, or lack
thereof, of resources leads to different tactics, IMHO, without one
necessarily being better than the other except for personal preferences.
>
>Anyway I can't be stuffed witting anymore and most people think
>differently anyway. But just so you know TA isn't the best game in the
>universe.
That's OK. Differing opinions is what makes things fun. (Games-L would be
really boring if we all agreed with each other on everything.)
Lynn
***********************************
Lynn Moncrief
(tech...@pacbell.net)
“Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.” -unknown
***********************************
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