Are Desires Sinful?
Jim D
Once upon a time, back about 11 Dec 96 at 6:09, Marti Scheeringa
wrote:
> Take Jonathan, for instance. There is nothing wrong with him
> weanting the companionship of a man. He wants to do with a man what
> most men want to do with women, and I don't mean in a sexual way. I
> mean in a normal, just share my life with you way. THERE IS NO SIN
> IN THAT! The sin would only come in if he started having either sex
> or fanttiecies of having sex with him. The sin isn't in the temptation to
>have sex, but in giving into the temptation.
You way there is nothing "wrong" with him wanting the companionship
with a man. Depends on what you mean by "wong", I guess. It
certainly isn't what God had in mind for him, but then most of us are
not completely what God has in mind for us. You used the word
"normal" rather loosely, didn't you?
Knowing how Johnathan feels, how long do you think he (or anyone
else in the same circumstances) could live with another man before
"sin" commenced? How long could I live with a woman whom I desired
and to whom I wasn't married before sin commenced?
God will supply the wherewithall if we desire it, but we are charged
with using the reasoning God gave us to keep ourselves out of
circumstances that would obviously lead to sin. For example, it
would not be prudent of someone to let themselves get into a
compromising position with someone they had an attraction for,
if they did, in fact, care about what might result. The "sin" might
be letting the circumstances develop in the first place.
Someone else mentioned that lusting after woman would be the same
as adultery. I guess it depends on how you define lust. I don't
think Jesus was referring to looking at an attractive woman and
appreciating her sexual beauty. I think he meant something deeper
than that. But to let oneself get into a compromising position with
her might be the same as adultery because the wheels have been set
into motion. If we don't commit adultery in our hearts we will never
commit adultery with our bodies. Anyway, that's my take on that
scripture.
We all sin. But I wonder if the consequences of "planning to sin"
isn't more serious than sinning without thinking??
In Him,
Jim
Druding/Littell
>Yes, planning to sin is more serious than "accidentally" sinning. I believe
sinning is a conscious choice against God, however once we've accepted God's
gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ we need to have a repentant
spirit. That is part of being a Christian. We need to turn away from our
sin. The Bible tells us, "he who knows to do good, and does it not, to him
it is sin" (James 4:17). Now that we know what the Bible tells us is good
and evil, we have MORE of a responsiblity to follow that.
I agree with you that Jonathan (whoever that is) should not put himself in a
place where sin is easy to form. He obviously has some things to work out
between him and God. It may be that men may be his big temptation that only
God can conquer.
Until the whole world hears, Laurel
David Coomler
On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, Druding/Littell wrote:
> He obviously has some things to work out
> between him and God. It may be that men may be his big temptation that only
> God can conquer.
Hey, quit assuming that there is anything wrong with the guy just because
he is gay. There is nothing wrong with being gay, no more than there is
with being heterosexual. What goes on in Jonathan's life is his own
business. You might as well say, "women may be a big temptation that only
God can conquer." Do you want everyone to be celibate? Let each person
make his own choice.
David
Judith H. Taylor
David Coomler writes:
> On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, Druding/Littell wrote:
>
> > He obviously has some things to work out
> > between him and God. It may be that men may be his big temptation that
only
> > God can conquer.
>
>
> Hey, quit assuming that there is anything wrong with the guy just
because
> he is gay. There is nothing wrong with being gay, no more than there is
> with being heterosexual.
Not if you're just out there eating and drinking and being merry, have at
it.
That's your business....
> What goes on in Jonathan's life is his own
> business.
It should be his own business but he spreads it all over the world on the
internet
making it everyone else's business also and then tries to justify his
proclivity
by perverting the scriptures to accommodate it.
> You might as well say, "women may be a big temptation that only
> God can conquer." Do you want everyone to be celibate? Let each
> person make his own choice.
I doubt that Laurel is going to stop anyone from making their own choice,
but sometimes it would be best if people kept their choices to themselves.
Judy
>
> David
Jim D
Once upon a time, back about 12 Dec 96 at 3:53, Jonathan A Coats
wrote:
> opportunity to start off such a discussion.....that's down to you
> funny wee straight people who seem to have nothing better to do than
> talk about gay people....
I don't think it's a matter of talking about gay people as much as it
is addressing sin.
I don't really see much being said about gay people in general or in
particular, although Jonathan's name does seem to pop up here and
there. I would imagine he is used as an "example" because of it,
whereas he wouldn't be if he didn't make public knowledge of the
fact that he is gay.
If someone attached their name to pornography, for example, and
entered into every exchange about pornography, I would imagine
they would be used as an example aslo.
Make any sense?
Jim
=========================
http://www.garlic.com/~jimd/
mailto:ji...@garlic.com
=========================
Dale'R Jay
Jonathan A Coats wrote:
>
> "Judith H. Taylor" <ju...@norfolk.infi.net> writes:
> >
> > It should be his own business but he spreads it all over the world on the
> > internet
> > making it everyone else's business also and then tries to justify his
> > proclivity
> > by perverting the scriptures to accommodate it.
>
> often I actually introduce the subject. No matter what my 'take' on
> it, and of course I do not pervert scripture, just undestand it
> better than you in ways in which it speaks to me....just as you
> yoursel fsaid was possible, I don;t think that I execlty take every
> opportunity to start off such a discussion.....that's down to you
> funny wee straight people who seem to have nothing better to do than
> talk about gay people....
>
Jonathan,
I have come to respect and admire you since joining this list a few
weeks ago. You appear to have lousy judgment, however. If you were in
your right mind you would never opened yourself to the judgmental
attitudes, personal attacks and general reviling on the part of a small
minority on the list. Yet you remain, never backing down from your
Christian beliefs and commitment. Bad judgment, but a character of
steel.
I dunno, but I find homosexuality overstressed and gays are often
attacked at every turn, despite the fact that they are responsible, even
celibate! What drives the minds of folks like Judy is beyond me. So
caught up in judgment of others! Never disobey She Who Must Be Obeyed!
(a la Rumpole) I trust that some day in the future I can be even half
as strong as you!
Let the homophobes do their dirtiest. But let your commitment to your
faith continue to show your best. Of course, I did just get my asbestos
drawers out of the wash. Keep the faith you prove means so much to
you. And keep the judgmental folks out of your sight. I learned not to
listen to Judy and Co., shortly after coming on the list.
Peace,
Dale
Dale'R Jay
Druding/Littell wrote:
>
> >Yes, planning to sin is more serious than "accidentally" sinning. I believe
> sinning is a conscious choice against God, however once we've accepted God's
> gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ we need to have a repentant
> spirit. That is part of being a Christian. We need to turn away from our
> sin. The Bible tells us, "he who knows to do good, and does it not, to him
> it is sin" (James 4:17). Now that we know what the Bible tells us is good
> and evil, we have MORE of a responsiblity to follow that.
>
> I agree with you that Jonathan (whoever that is) should not put himself in a
> between him and God. It may be that men may be his big temptation that only
> God can conquer.
>
Laurel,
It is my observation that Jonathan has maintained control over his anger
and his libido. It always interests me that Jonathan is picked out for
special consideration, simply because the man has the guts to share his
thoughts and struggle to live out a Christian life. Why he should be
singled out to be cautioned to stay away from situations conducive to
"sin" seems IMHO, to hold that if he is seduced the seduction is any
more a "sin" than if he were a heterosexual? Indeed, this is a pattern
that has been seen many times before. Are gays more likely to give into
to temptation than straights? Do they abuse more children? Is their
sexual orientation that much more serious and sinful than a promiscuous
straight person? And why should they been seen as a special case?
Though I agree that promiscuity is not a desirable thing in a
Christian's life, I most certainly believe that setting oneself as the
very oracle of God in such matters is fully as serious, if not moreso.
At no point have I seen Jonathan supporting free, uninhibited sexual
lifestyles. Yet he is seen by a very few here as an ogre waiting to
pounce upon the first male to happen by!
All I am saying is that the problem of homosexuality and its place in
the church MUST be tempered with the realization that straight sex can
be just as "evil" as gay sex. Don't pick on Jonathan because he is
trying to work out his faith and life in a most reasonable, careful
manner.
Peace,
Dale
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
Jim D wrote:
> We all sin. But I wonder if the consequences of "planning to sin"
> isn't more serious than sinning without thinking??
Why, Jim -- what a...Catholic...thing to say.
George Carlin summed up Catholic teaching on this subject very
well on one of his albums.
So, you're thinking of going down to Times Square
and commiting a mortal sin? Don't bother, man!
You've already done it! Yeah ...
This is the way the RCC echoes the Biblical teaching that sin
does not take place in our mouths or our bodies but in our
hearts.
--Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom.
Though it cost you all you have, get understanding.
--Proverbs 4:7 (RSV)
I would rather feel contrition than know how to define it.
-- Thomas a Kempis
What will you do if we let you go home,
and the plastic's all melted, and so is the chrome?
Who are the Brain Police?
-- Frank Zappa