Modernism
Ken Dawe
marks the birthday of Alfred Loisy - the French biblical scholar and
philosopher of religion who is generally credited as the founder of
Modernism, a movement within the Roman Catholic Church aimed at revising
its dogma to reflect advances in science and philosophy.
Dharma Bum
Pavel Chichikov
> Modernism, a movement within the Roman Catholic Church aimed at revising
> its dogma to reflect advances in science and philosophy.
>
> Dharma Bum
>
Just which advances would those be, Dharma, and how would they tempt the
Church to change its dogma?
Pavel
Del Atwood
>I'm sure everyone would want to join Olivier in recognizing that today
>marks the birthday of Alfred Loisy - the French biblical scholar and
>philosopher of religion who is generally credited as the founder of
>its dogma to reflect advances in science and philosophy.
Ah, yes. Loisy. An excommunicate who wrote in his memoirs: "What I was
beginning to believe regarding the Bible, Jesus, the Christian principles
and their origins, was the absolute negation of any supernatural character
for religion whatever." If he were alive today, you'd find him on the
Vatican2 list.
==========================
Patterned on God's freedom, man's
freedom is not negated by his
obedience to the divine law; indeed,
only through this obedience does
it abide in the truth and conform to
human dignity.
--John Paul II
Veritatis Splendor, no. 42
==========================
Del Atwood
dat...@newcomm.net
Ken Dawe
> What kind of an idiot would ever claim that there could be such a thing
> as "advances" in philosophy? It would have to be someone who didn't know
> anything about philosophy, that's for sure.
Either that or some philosophical snob. Know any?
Dharma Bum
Ken Dawe
> On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Ken Dawe wrote:
>
> > Modernism, a movement within the Roman Catholic Church aimed at revising
> > its dogma to reflect advances in science and philosophy.
> >
> Just which advances would those be, Dharma, and how would they tempt the
> Church to change its dogma?
Pavel,
You know that Loisy lived from 1857 to 1940 - so the modernizing has
already been started even though there were attempts to stifle it in the
early part of this century - and the attempts to stifle continue with
Ratzinger and the radical conservative element of the Church. But as you
know there's no stopping the Holy Spirit.
Dharma Bum
Russell D. James
was first to cry heresy at modernism, but I am sure that one of us on
this list knows.
Russell D. James
Delta, CO
On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Pavel Chichikov wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Ken Dawe wrote:
>
> > Modernism, a movement within the Roman Catholic Church aimed at revising
> > its dogma to reflect advances in science and philosophy.
> >
> > Dharma Bum
Olivier JOSEPH
>marks the birthday of Alfred Loisy - the French biblical scholar and
>philosopher of religion who is generally credited as the founder of
>its dogma to reflect advances in science and philosophy.
>
>Dharma Bum
I am not especially a fan of Loisy. Albert Lagrange, Marie-Dominique Chenu,
Yves Congar, Francois Varillon and Emmanuel Mounier are my catholic
inspirers.
Olivier.
*************************************************************
"Des chercheurs qui cherchent on en trouve,
Des chercheurs qui trouvent on en cherche"
Julos Beaucarne
/-------------------------------------------------------------/
/ Olivier JOSEPH / e-mail : jos...@planete.net /
/ / /
/ 26, rue de Bitche / Phone / Fax: (33) 63 49 78 83 /
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Gerard Bugge
> I am not especially a fan of Loisy. Albert Lagrange, Marie-Dominique Chenu,
> Yves Congar, Francois Varillon and Emmanuel Mounier are my catholic
> inspirers.
What "greats" the French have given to the Church! Along with
these (of whom I would count Congar and Lagrange as influential in my life
and to a lesser extent Chenu and Mounier), I would add Therese of
Lisieux, Elizabeth of Dijon (who wrote in French), the Maritains, de
Lubac, Danielou and Bouyer, Bernanos and Peguy, Mauriac and Bloy, the
ecumenists of the Dominicans like Dalmais and le Gillou, and really many
others too I am sure. Oh yes, the great Lacordaire as well! One of my
favorite books is a collections of his letters.
The Eldest Daughter of the Church has enriched us all.
(Now if only I could learn French!!!!)
Gerard Serafin
Gerard Bugge
> What "greats" the French have given to the Church! Along with
> these (of whom I would count Congar and Lagrange as influential in my life
> and to a lesser extent Chenu and Mounier), I would add Therese of
> Lisieux, Elizabeth of Dijon (who wrote in French), the Maritains, de
> Lubac, Danielou and Bouyer, Bernanos and Peguy, Mauriac and Bloy, the
> ecumenists of the Dominicans like Dalmais and le Gillou, and really many
> others too I am sure. Oh yes, the great Lacordaire as well! One of my
> favorite books is a collections of his letters.
>
> The Eldest Daughter of the Church has enriched us all.
>
> (Now if only I could learn French!!!!)
An evening later, and I remember Claudel and Charles de Foucauld
and Jean Guitton and Francis de Sales and Bousset and Pascal: and how
many others have I forgotten? Vive la France!
Gerard Serafin
Pavel Chichikov
I was just wondering about your statement that advances in science
and philosophy suggested that changes ought to be made in dogma. Could you
please get down to specifics? For instance, what about those experiments
by Michael Faraday to measure the twitch-factor in the wing muscle-mass of
angels? How about Maxwell's proof that clouds are not dense enough to
support the weight of more than fifty tons of blessed per cubic kilometer?
And then Plank's work determining that a physical body rising through the
air would need to be injected with at least a meter of compressed hydrogen
in order to achieve the necessary buoyancy?
And so on.
Peace,
Pavel [who is pulling your leg]
Karin A. Rosner
>I am not especially a fan of Loisy. Albert Lagrange, Marie-Dominique Chenu,
>Yves Congar, Francois Varillon and Emmanuel Mounier are my catholic
>inspirers.
>
I discovered Mounier a couple of years ago. He IS inspiring. Highly
reccomended reading! I've been using his work in almost everything I do
these days.
KR
Karin A. Rosner ---- New York MacUsers' Group
macw...@tiac.com ----- http:// TBA
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit http://www.nymug.org and find out how to become a NY MUG-er!
Olivier JOSEPH
>On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, Olivier JOSEPH wrote:
>
>> I am not especially a fan of Loisy. Albert Lagrange, Marie-Dominique Chenu,
>> Yves Congar, Francois Varillon and Emmanuel Mounier are my catholic
>> inspirers.
>
> What "greats" the French have given to the Church! Along with
>these (of whom I would count Congar and Lagrange as influential in my life
>and to a lesser extent Chenu and Mounier), I would add Therese of
>Lisieux, Elizabeth of Dijon (who wrote in French), the Maritains, de
>Lubac, Danielou and Bouyer, Bernanos and Peguy, Mauriac and Bloy, the
>ecumenists of the Dominicans like Dalmais and le Gillou, and really many
>others too I am sure. Oh yes, the great Lacordaire as well! One of my
>favorite books is a collections of his letters.
>
> The Eldest Daughter of the Church has enriched us all.
>
> (Now if only I could learn French!!!!)
Here is your first lesson, Gerard :
"Je reve souvent d'un monde ou l'on pourrait arreter le premier venu au
tournant d'une rue, et, egal du premier coup avec tout ce qu'il est,
continuer avec lui sans autre etonnement sa conversation interieure.
Les quelques fois ou j'ai rencontre une ame de qualite assez rare pour
pouvoir prendre avec elle cette liberte, je l'ai fait. Ainsi sont nees
mes meilleures amities ..."
Emmanuel Mounier
Letter to Paulette Leclercq
February 5, 1933
Olivier
Energo Ed
>> Modernism, a movement within the Roman Catholic Church aimed at revising
>> its dogma to reflect advances in science and philosophy.
>What kind of an idiot would ever claim that there could be such a thing
>as "advances" in philosophy? It would have to be someone who didn't know
>anything about philosophy, that's for sure.
>
Surely, there has to be in advances in philisophical thought. For example,
due to scientific advances, Bertrand Russel would have more insight of the
whys and the hows of nature than Aristotle.
OTOH, some philosophical thought could go backwards, as science advances.
Energo Ed
System Root
Well, I kinda feel that philosophical thought just sort of builds up into a big
pile of available thought. What gets done with that thought from age to age, or
evevn person to person within the age, really doesn't change much. Not to
say that
it can't change, just that my priest's contention that human nature hasn't
changed
is probably largely accurate. We have a lot of neat new thoughts to go along
with
all the neat old ones. Then we get guys (or gals) like Pat Buchannan that
equivocate
their way through the expression of em til they're either meaningless or
frighteningly
different from their originally intended basis.
Modernization seems to be nothing more than Lutheranism warmed over. Nothing
wrong with that...there will always be shortcomings to the Church's ways and
means. The problem,
at least in the West, is that protest has become rather self-validating.
People begin
to think that just because they are protesting something they must
invariably be right
about it. Very little self-examination goes into the somewhat superficial
presentation
of thoughts and, as witnessed on this and other lists, very little into
disputation
about them as well.
Learned thought and dispute has ever been boring and tedious to those who
want quick
simple answers to eternal, complex questions.
Acklin
Ken Dawe
> Modernism is a heresy according to the Church. I'm not sure which pope
> was first to cry heresy at modernism, but I am sure that one of us on
> this list knows.
Hey Russ,
It ain't 1910 any more. You can come up for air now.
Dharma Bum
Ken Dawe
> > It ain't 1910 any more. You can come up for air now.
> >
> > Dharma Bum
>
> That's right, Russ, don't forget about the "progress of philosophy". No
> idea occurring earlier than, oh, say--when were you born, Bum?--let's say
> 1960 just to be on the safe side, could possibly be true any more. If you
> want to be an Arian, that's OK, it's no longer a heresy; if you want to
> be a Jansenist, go for it, it was only wrong up until about 1800; hey, in
> fact, the whole notion of Christianity is getting a little long in the
> tooth, so why not just become a wiccan?
Heh heh What's with this projecting words into the mouth of yers truly?
Anyway you can be whatever you wanna be - it's up to you. Ah but I'll
leave the philosophy to the philosophers - and I'm no pretender to the
throne.
Dharma Bum
Scott Carson
> On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Russell D. James wrote:
>
> > Modernism is a heresy according to the Church. I'm not sure which pope
> > was first to cry heresy at modernism, but I am sure that one of us on
> > this list knows.
>
> Hey Russ,
>
> It ain't 1910 any more. You can come up for air now.
>
> Dharma Bum
That's right, Russ, don't forget about the "progress of philosophy". No
idea occurring earlier than, oh, say--when were you born, Bum?--let's say
1960 just to be on the safe side, could possibly be true any more. If you
want to be an Arian, that's OK, it's no longer a heresy; if you want to
be a Jansenist, go for it, it was only wrong up until about 1800; hey, in
fact, the whole notion of Christianity is getting a little long in the
tooth, so why not just become a wiccan?
_____________________________________________________________________________
Scott Carson Department of Philosophy
voice mail: (919) 660-3052 Duke University
FAX: (919) 660-3060 201 West Duke Building
e-mail: dsca...@email.unc.edu Durham, NC 27708
Ken Dawe
> Oh! Ouch! Once again I am STUNG, positively cut to the QUICK, by your
> rapier-like wit. I mean, seriously, that was a really GOOD one! Did you
> think of it yourself, or did your friends at the preschool help you out
> you already know all of this, since you are such an expert on snobbery.
Ah, Scotty, yer gettin' yer pee hot. Relax fella. Besides i'm a complete
rank amateur at satire and snobbery compared to the experts. And we know
who they are.
Sal Paradise.
Fiona MARSDEN
scripture scholarship which was suppressed by the edict of 1905. By 1912
however the churches stance was changing and now Catholic Scripture
scholarship leads the world.
Those who are so worried about liturgical change should consider the
effect on the philosophical and dogmatic principles of the church by the
discoveries concerning the authorship of the Old Testament.
The true measure of the church is that while reeling in horror at what
scholarship revealed about the Pentateuch...within a few years the church
was incorporating these discoveries into the life of the church and by
the middle of the century was urging scholars towards further discoveries
in the same area.
In spite of accusation about slow footedness in the area of the dead sea
scrolls the churche has no fears about what will be discovered about the
formation of the bible or of Barbara Thierings interpretations.
Semper Fi $;-]
GEORGE CRAIG
From: Free Catholic Mailing List on behalf of Russell D. James
Sent: Thursday, 29 February 1996 3:34
To: Multiple recipients of list CATHOLIC
Subject: Re: Modernism
Modernism is a heresy according to the Church. I'm not sure which pope
was first to cry heresy at modernism, but I am sure that one of us on
this list knows.
It would be pope St Pius X. Russell D. James
George CraigDelta, CO
On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Pavel Chichikov wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Ken Dawe wrote:
>
> > Modernism, a movement within the Roman Catholic Church aimed at revising
> > its dogma to reflect advances in science and philosophy.
> >
GEORGE CRAIG
From: Free Catholic Mailing List on behalf of Gerard Bugge
Sent: Friday, 1 March 1996 1:40
To: Multiple recipients of list CATHOLIC
Subject: Re: Modernism
On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, Gerard Bugge wrote:
> What "greats" the French have given to the Church! Along with
> these (of whom I would count Congar and Lagrange as influential in my life
> and to a lesser extent Chenu and Mounier), I would add Therese of
> Lisieux, Elizabeth of Dijon (who wrote in French), the Maritains, de
> Lubac, Danielou and Bouyer, Bernanos and Peguy, Mauriac and Bloy, the
> ecumenists of the Dominicans like Dalmais and le Gillou, and really many
> others too I am sure. Oh yes, the great Lacordaire as well! One of my
> favorite books is a collections of his letters.
>
> The Eldest Daughter of the Church has enriched us all.
>
> (Now if only I could learn French!!!!)
An evening later, and I remember Claudel and Charles de Foucauld
and Jean Guitton and Francis de Sales and Bousset and Pascal: and how
many others have I forgotten? Vive la France!
Gerard Serafin
St Bernadette Soubirous of Lourdes
Vraiment , Vive la France!
La nation elu par Dieu.
Gerard Bugge
> In article: <v01510100ad5be6a0e723@[194.150.2.176]> Olivier JOSEPH
> > Gerard wrote :
>
> > > (Now if only I could learn French!!!!)
> >
> > Here is your first lesson, Gerard :
> >
> > "Je reve souvent d'un monde ou l'on pourrait arreter le premier venu au
> > tournant d'une rue, et, egal du premier coup avec tout ce qu'il est,
> > continuer avec lui sans autre etonnement sa conversation interieure.
> > Les quelques fois ou j'ai rencontre une ame de qualite assez rare pour
> > pouvoir prendre avec elle cette liberte, je l'ai fait. Ainsi sont nees
> > mes meilleures amities ..."
> >
> > Emmanuel Mounier
>
> 'I often dream of a world in which one could stop the first person you met in
> the street, and, despite this being the very first meeting, fall into step
> with his most intimate conversation without a second thought. The few times
> upon which I have met a soul of the rare sort to be able to take this
> liberty, I have done so. Thus have been born my greatest friendships....'
Thanks, David, for the translation! Thanks, Olivier, for the
truly beautiful quotation from Mounier. And it does resonate within as
well; those amazing "encounters" when something quite special and unique
takes place, sometimes at the very first meeting. I think I can say,
too, that "thus have been born my greatest friendships...."
Gerard Serafin
Olivier JOSEPH
>Olivier! Ce n'est pas gentil comme premier lecon!
A l'impossible, nul n'est tenu.
>Free (very free) translation:
Merci l'ami.
>'I often dream of a world in which one could stop the first person you met in
>the street, and, despite this being the very first meeting, fall into step
>with his most intimate conversation without a second thought. The few times
>upon which I have met a soul of the rare sort to be able to take this
>liberty, I have done so. Thus have been born my greatest friendships....'
Well, bien, bien, bien !
Some corrections :
"I often dream of a world in which one could stop the first person you met
in the street, and, equal in the first time with all what he is, fall into
step with his most intimate conversation without another astonishment."