What the hell is going on here?
Qemajl Lumi
------------------------------------------------------------------------
<***> A L B A N I A N - Mon, 20 May 1996 08:30:41 GMT-05 <***>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andi,
Your attitude toward Kosova is so dangerous, smallminded and tribal
that I must respond point by point to your arguments why Albania
"cannot join in a possible conflict in the Republic of Kosova". I
hope you will see not only the faulty logic in your thinking, but also
its extremely dangerous implications for Albania's future.
Your Point #1) "Albania doesn't have the economical power to" defend
Kosova
Who is asking whether anyone has the economic power to conduct a war?
This war is not an economic issue. The Serbs will carry out their
plans whether we're economically ready or not. We are not choosing
when or if the war will happen. If it happens, we will have to
respond whether we do or don't have the economic power. At the
moment, Kosova does not even have the economic power to feed itself
let alone enter a conflict with Serbia. Do you really think that the
conflict has been prevented so far thanks to Rugova's peace policy, or
that Rugova himself would have advocated such policies if we had the
economic power we need to get rid of Serbian rule? Of course not. For
the same reason Kosova does not have the choice in whether to enter a
conflict or not. If it happens it will be forced onto us. And if it
does happen Albanians in Kosova will be slaughtered. Now you are
saying that Albania does not have the economic resources to enter such
a conflict? Well, if Albania does not enter such a conflict we'd
better stop calling ourselves Albanians, for we will not be considered
as such by anyone, ever.
Your Point #2) "Most Albanians would not risk their lives (the general
opinion is: Why would I risk my life for some villages in Kosova,
which I never heard about until 5 yrs ago?)"
Your first and biggest problem is that you treat Albania as a separate
entity in a situation when the very being of Albanians as a people is
threatened. It is precisely this small minded and tribal way of looking
at problems (based as it is on arbitrary administrative borders,
differences in religion, dialect, tribal and cultural variations, etc)
that makes Albanians uniquely backward compared to our fellow European
nations, and which has in the past been the reason for our failure to
preserve our national, cultural, religious and territorial
independence, and has helped others ethnically cleanse and separate us
into five Ballkan states. You treat Albanians in Kosova, Macedonia,
Montenegro, Greece or Albania as separate entities. You go so far as
to demonstrate your ignorance about the Albanians living in Kosova.
All you are doing is defending ignorance -- why don't you do something
about this ignorance instead? We are all one nation, and Kosova is
part of our national issue. If we carry on treating our problems as
separate rather than one national problem, as we've done in the past,
we'll just end up losing more than we already have throughout our
history (which I hope you are not ignorant about as well).
Your Point #3) "In a possible conflict like that, against the Serbs,
Montenegrins, probably FYROM-ians, and eventually Greeks that would be
suicidal. We just can't afford."
The whole point is that we don't want a conflict. But if such a
conflict happens, will we lose less by behaving as one than we will
lose behaving the way you advocate -- leaving our different
settlements to fend for themselves? The fact that such a myriad of
forces is ranged against us argues forcibly for our need to behave
like a nation. Only in this way will we prevent ALL of us from being
slaughtered in the long run.
The danger in every point you make is your inability to recognise that
a threat to Albanians is a threat to Albania as a nation. We will
never make any progress in our national issue until problems such as
Kosova's occupation by a foreign power is resolved. In fact, the key
to Albania's future is the resolution of Kosova, because until then,
Albania will never be able to integrate or develop economically. None
of our other problems can even be considered until our basic security
problems have been resolved in the region. And as long as Albanians
such as yourself don't recognise that our own security is at risk, we
are vulnerable to complete destruction as a nation.
Regards
Qemajl Lumi
Q.Lumi@lse
I do agree that the situation in Kosova is very tense. However, no
matter how sad this might sound, Albania can not join in a possible
military conflict the Republic of Kosova. The principal causes may be
these:
1) Albania doesn't have the economical power to do that
2) Most of the Albanians would not risk their lives (the general
opinion is: WHy would I risk my life for some villages in Kosova,
which I never heard about until 5 yrs ago?).
3) In a possible conflict like that, against the Serbs, Montenegrins,
probably FYROM-ians, and eventually Greeks that would be suicidal. We
can't just afford.
I don't agree with the hardliners, that reject Rugova, and are asking
for more radical measures in Kosova. It's dumb for the moment, to
start a war we can not win (in the long run NOBODY WILL WIN anyway.
Bosnia is just a fresh memory). We have to look for a political
solution. THERE ARE NO OTHER ALTERNATIVES.
-Speaking about Albania entering the EU: that will not happen before
2020 or 2030. SORRY!
-Although Albania was granted a $100 million aid package from
Pentagon, you have to remeber that the Albanian Army is screwed up as
it is. (That to the great contribute of Mr. Zhulali also. If the
communist regime had one thing only done for good Mr. Berisha
destroyed that too????!!!!) Even if Pentagon gives a billion dollars,
it will take a couple of years until the 20-30 years old Majors and
Collonels really deserve their rank.
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| ALBANIAN Discussion List ALBA...@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu |
| ftp:ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu/albanian Usenet:bit.listserv.albanian |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| To signoff from ALBANIAN e-mail to: list...@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu |
| In the body of the message include: SIGNOFF ALBANIAN |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
Qemajl Lumi
------------------------------------------------------------------------
<***> A L B A N I A N - Mon, 20 May 1996 07:05:11 GMT-05 <***>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andi,
Regards
Qemajl Lumi
ANDI ILIR COMO
Box 2477 Middlebury College,
Middlebury, Vt 05753 U.S.A.
(802) 388-3711 ext. 4221
co...@panther.middlebury.edu
http://www.middlebury.edu/~como
Andi I. Como 99
------------------------------------------------------------------------
<***> A L B A N I A N - Mon, 20 May 1996 08:54:35 GMT-05 <***>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Andi,
> Your attitude toward Kosova is so dangerous, smallminded and tribal
> that I must respond point by point to your arguments why Albania
> "cannot join in a possible conflict in the Republic of Kosova".
THANK YOU SIR!
>Who is asking whether anyone has the economic power to conduct a war?
Excuse me, but can you please explain me how do you fight a war if you
can not afford it?
>If it happens, we will have to
respond whether we do or don't have the economic power.
I'M NOT QUESTIONG THIS. ABSOLUTELY. I WILL INTERUPT MY STUDIES AND ENLIST
IN THE FRONT IF ALBANIA'S FUTURE IS IN DANGER!
> Do you really think that the
conflict has been prevented so far thanks to Rugova's peace policy, or
that Rugova himself would have advocated such policies if we had the
economic power we need to get rid of Serbian rule? Of course not.
I DO THINK SO. IF WE HAD THE POWER WE WOULD HAVE SOLVED THE PROBLEM.
> For the same reason Kosova does not have the choice in whether to enter a
> conflict or not.
WHO DOES?
THIS IS THE MAIN POINT I WANT TO MAKE AND LET ME TIE IT IN IN THE
FOLLOWING DISCOURSE:
The question is who would force a war in the Balkans, we or the Serbs. I
think that Serbs, as things are, can not win anything. In the worst case
(in a military conflict) they will lose territory. I hope you agree with
me so far. Then, why would they start a war? A war will erupt if and only
if started by Albania or the International Community... by recognizing
the Republic of Kosova. If they (International Community) recognize it
that means that they give the right to a region, to become republic,
secede, and join another country. (This is how things stand on the
International Law). That means that the Albanians in FYROM will try to do
the same... so will 3 million Hungarians, 2 million Romanians, Turks,
Bulgarians... Greeks will claim Southern Albania. That means that all the
Goverments of this states will be engaged in a war. (for the very same
reasons that you and I agreed!) For the Serbs, and the International
community, Albanians are breaking the Constitution of the Republic where
this region is found... therefore Albanians are the ones who cause the
war! (if ever) I'm sorry (as an Albanian to say this), but that's how things
are on international level. Let me draw a parallel: If Greeks in Southern
Albania declare independence, do you think I will stand still? No, I will
go and crush them, but that doesn't mean that I started the war; I'm just
defending my country! More or less the same can apply to Kosova. Follow
my logic, step by step and find the faults (if any) in there. THIS IS THE
REASON WHY THE STATES, EVEN THOUGH SOLIDARIZE WITH KOSOVA, DO NOT
RECOGNIZE IT AS A SEPARATE ENTITY. I need some realism here not shitloads
of cliches!
Experience shows that there are three ways to solve a problem like Kosova:
1) Well, Turkey tried to solve Cyprus on a militarilly way: it didn't work;
the occupied Cyprus is not recognized by U.N., neither any serious country.
And don't forget that Turkey is much stronger than Greece! We're not much
stronger than Serbia.
2)Or if we were economically powerful, we could exert draconian measures on
Serbia, and force them to do what we want. Unfortunately we are the
poorest country in Europe.
3)Or there is the option I prefer: solve it on political level. I will
spend some time on this (I hope you don't mind) since it seems the best
option to me.
( INTRODUCTORY NOTE:If you decide to sit down and talk, you have to be
realistic, and you should be able to compromise. That's what democracy is,
isn'it?)
One alternative, the one I have comed up with, is to let Kosova become a
republic, but with no right to join Albania for 99 years. That pleases
somewhat Albanians (get rid of Belgrade), and Serbs (Kosova doesn't join
Albania). It falls short in one aspect: Republic will mean that
Albanians on the most part will run it. I don't think our democracy is as
good as not to discriminate and persecute the Serb minority (that's what
Tirana was doing on the Greeks; and at the same time that 300,000 Albs
were working illegaly in Greece); therefore most of the Serbs will not
like this unless we give clear guarantees to them.
Partition would be another solution. I don't like it because it will
please none.
Let Kosova remain in Serbia. The Serbs have to recognize that there are
90% Albanians in the region, and remove their 50,000 and some policemen,
and most of all NOT TREAT ALBANIANS AS SECOND-HAND CITIZENS; Albanians
have to recognize Belgrade. Then Kosova will be solved as Mr. Berisha
said "ne kuadrin e nje Evrope te bashkuar". I know it will sound bitter
to many of you, and I agree that it is a big step. Neccessary though.
We have to have a starting point. If we mention Dardania, they will
mention "The battle of Kosova". We should chose as our rationale the present!
P.S. You misinterpret me. I didn't say that I'm not a patriot. I care
about Kosova ALOT, because I'm ALBANIAN. But before that, I'm a HUMAN
BEING and I care for those millions who would be slaughtered in a
possible conflict. That's why I don't want to see my goverment to cause a
war. However, if war is enforced upon us I will fight. My whole point in
the last message is: Should we cause a conflict, or not? In this context
what does this mean:
>The whole point is that we don't want a conflict. But if such a
> conflict happens, will we lose less by behaving as one than we will
> lose behaving the way you advocate -- leaving our different
> settlements to fend for themselves? The fact that such a myriad of
> forces is ranged against us argues forcibly for our need to behave
> like a nation. Only in this way will we prevent ALL of us from being
> slaughtered in the long run.
>>>The whole point is that we don't want a conflict.
Easy to say it. But in fact if a conflict happens, we would be the ones
to cause it (see above).
One more thing: Please don't try to give a moral lesson , embedded with
false patriotism and cliches. Try to give a solution instead...
Andi Como
Besnik Pula
------------------------------------------------------------------------
<***> A L B A N I A N - Mon, 20 May 1996 19:07:37 GMT-05 <***>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andi wrote:
> The question is who would force a war in the Balkans, we or the Serbs. I
> think that Serbs, as things are, can not win anything. In the worst case
> (in a military conflict) they will lose territory. I hope you agree with
> me so far. Then, why would they start a war? A war will erupt if and only
> if started by Albania or the International Community... by recognizing
It would be the most irrational decision for Albanians of Kosova to make
to go into an armed conflict with Serbia. The reasons are: the
population is unarmed, they don't have an army, they don't even
have a police force, thus, they don't have any kind of defense strategy.
Given these facts, it would be suicidal for the Albanians of Kosova to
start a war with Serbia which is armed, which already has a military
presence in the territory of Kosova, which has elaborate plans on
wiping out the Albanian population and which, as it showed in
Bosnia, is ruthless enough to carry these plans out.
> the Republic of Kosova. If they (International Community) recognize it
> that means that they give the right to a region, to become republic,
> secede, and join another country. (This is how things stand on the
> International Law). That means that the Albanians in FYROM will try to do
> the same... so will 3 million Hungarians, 2 million Romanians, Turks,
> Bulgarians... Greeks will claim Southern Albania. That means that all the
> Goverments of this states will be engaged in a war. (for the very same
> reasons that you and I agreed!) For the Serbs, and the International
> community, Albanians are breaking the Constitution of the Republic where
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> this region is found... therefore Albanians are the ones who cause the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> war! (if ever) I'm sorry (as an Albanian to say this), but that's how things
In Yugoslavia, Kosova was an autonomous province with a high degree of
self-administration. It was one of the eight federal units of the
Yugoslav federation, which also had veto power.
The constitution of the Republic of Serbia was first imposed on
Kosova in 1989, then a new constitution in 1991. The 1989 constitution
of the Republic of Serbia ILLEGALLY abolished the autonomous status of
the then Soclialist Autonomous Province of Kosova, it was IN VIOLATION
of the 1974 federal constitution of the SFR of Yugoslavia which was still
in effect. Both the 1989 and 1991 constitution of Serbia came into effect
WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF THE LEGAL PARLIAMENT OF KOSOVA, which was
necessary for it to pass. Therefore, this constitution is illegitimate
in the territory of Kosova.
Hence, Albanians in Kosova cannot be in violation of a
constitution which they did not accept, which was imposed to them
by a government which is legally foreign to them.
Secondly, Kosova cannot be compared to the ethnic Greek minority
of Albania, the Albanians of Macedonia, the Hungarians, Romanians,
etc. The territory of Kosova is not just an abstract notion. The
territory of Kosova is set within clearly defined political
boundaries, which had limited sovereignity until 1989, when this
sovereignity was ILLEGALLY abolished by another government (this
is also known as occupation). There is a LEGAL BASIS for the
independence of Kosova, that is the difference.
> THIS IS THE
> REASON WHY THE STATES, EVEN THOUGH SOLIDARIZE WITH KOSOVA, DO NOT
> RECOGNIZE IT AS A SEPARATE ENTITY.
I do not think that this is the reason why Kosova is not
recognized independence. To recognize the independence of Kosova,
given the situation it currently is in, may mean causing further
complications. It would certainly be a clear provocation to
Serbia to start an ethnic cleansing campaign in Kosova, just as it
did in Bosnia after it was recognized. This is one of the major
problems in recognizing the independence of Kosova.
Several intermediate steps would be necessary for Kosova to become
independent. This would require placing the territory under some sort
of international administration while the region is disarmed, and
receiving guarantees for security, perhaps by another, stronger
country or NATO.
> One alternative, the one I have comed up with, is to let Kosova become a
> republic, but with no right to join Albania for 99 years. That pleases
> somewhat Albanians (get rid of Belgrade), and Serbs (Kosova doesn't join
> Albania). It falls short in one aspect: Republic will mean that
> Albanians on the most part will run it. I don't think our democracy is as
> good as not to discriminate and persecute the Serb minority (that's what
> Tirana was doing on the Greeks; and at the same time that 300,000 Albs
> were working illegaly in Greece); therefore most of the Serbs will not
> like this unless we give clear guarantees to them.
I don't think that Serbia would be satisfied by allowing Kosova to
become a republic, at least not the current leadership of Serbia.
Once Kosova secedes from Serbia it does not make too much of a
difference to Serbia whether it remains independent or joins Albania.
Serbia wants full control over Kosova.
> Partition would be another solution. I don't like it because it will
> please none.
I think partition would please the Serbs. There have been
propositions floating around political circles in Belgrade, most
recently by Yugoslavia's former president Cosic, which suggested
the partition of Kosova between Serbia and Albania. According to
these propositions, Serbia would get to keep northeastern Kosova,
where the underground wealth, industry and large cities are located,
and Albania would get the small farmlands and mountainous regions of
western and southwestern Kosova.
> Let Kosova remain in Serbia. The Serbs have to recognize that there are
> 90% Albanians in the region, and remove their 50,000 and some policemen,
> and most of all NOT TREAT ALBANIANS AS SECOND-HAND CITIZENS; Albanians
> have to recognize Belgrade. Then Kosova will be solved as Mr. Berisha
> said "ne kuadrin e nje Evrope te bashkuar". I know it will sound bitter
> to many of you, and I agree that it is a big step. Neccessary though.
> We have to have a starting point. If we mention Dardania, they will
> mention "The battle of Kosova". We should chose as our rationale the present!
Kosova may, because of the present reality, remain within Serbia,
but in my opinion, Kosova's separation from Serbia is inevitable.
It will happen sooner or later.
Albanians MUST remain persistant in demands for independence. If
Albanians of Kosova request some sort of a settlement based on
autonomy within Serbia, Kosova would certainly get NOTHING,
perhaps some sort of cultural autonomy that could be revoked at
Belgrade's will.
Regards,
Besnik
Joe DeNatale
------------------------------------------------------------------------
<***> A L B A N I A N - Wed, 22 May 1996 14:11:34 GMT-05 <***>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: Albanian Discussion Group<alba...@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu>
From: Joe De Natale <jden...@delphi.com>
Subject: What the hell is going on here?
A week or so ago I suggested that we do a reality check on the Kosova
Albanian
issue. Much has been written on this topic since that time, some of it
inflammatory, some of it reasoned.
It may be worthwhile to step back from the heat of the
argument and take a look at some of the realities again.
The super nationalists who would want to commit every Albanian, probably
including the diaspora, are blind to the fact that besides being foolhardy,
there is no great appetite for most countries and individuals to become
involved in what would be a bloody mess.
First of all, there is no doubt in my mind that any of us in this discussion
group will see a united Albania in our life time. The geopolitical problems
are so large and enmeshed with what happens, not just in the former
Yugoslavia, but the Balkans and Eastern Europe. Although tactical advances
may
be made in one or several of the countries, progress will be slow. Add to
the
external problems the internal difficulties in each of the countries.
Albania is an excellent example. In the north, blood feuds have returned to
a degree where it is unsafe for chidden to go to school. In the south, the
problems of the Greek minority still exist. Just recently, an American
Congressman, Tom Lantos, visited there and attempted to bring in Nicholas
Gage, the Greek-American agitator for minority Greek rights in Albania.
(Gage
was refused entry.) In the central part of Albania, corruption is rampant
with jobs, justice and joint ventures going to the one who gives the most
baksheesh. The present government is poised to win the elections at all
odds,
even if it means a continuation of violating human rights of its opponents.
Half the GDP of the country comes from remittances from Albanians working in
other countries. The country cannot produce its own weaponry and would be
sending men to their certain annihilation. The list goes on and on.
In Kosova, the Serbs have a strangle hold on the Albanian majority. I
believe
that any move toward independence by the Albanians would cause untold
bloodshed. At one time I believed that the start of the war crimes trial
might
be a deterrent to the leaders, but I have doubts now. In the event of a
conflict there, it is doubtful how the United States would react, especially
in an election year. The European Community has already shown that it has no
great interest or desire to become involved. They will assist only in so far
as it helps to prevent more immigrants (Albanian and otherwise) to their
country.
The solution belongs to statesmen, not politicians. Unfortunately there are
few of them, Rugova and Demaci being two of them. Kosova is in a state of
tension. Statesmen do not forsake tension, they use it to advance their
cause.
They know that additional pressure from either side can cause that tension
to
snap creating a debacle of unwanted consequences.
One cannot deny history. Unfortunately the history of the Balkans is so
convoluted that it makes resolution of present day difficulties an enormous
challenge. Albanians have lived in Kosova for centuries. Kosova, on the
other
hand, through the events of history, is where the Serbs find there origins.
How does one resolve these diametrically opposed issues? Certainly,
bloodshed
will only exacerbate the problem. The winners will claim justification for
their cause and punish the losers; the losers will have their resentment
increased, waiting for the next time.
Statesmen know that time is on their side, but they measure time in years
and
not in days. One only has to look at other parts of the world to see how
slowly progress is made. Old enmities do not die a sudden death, they
atrophy
slowly. The Kosova problem is basically no different, the Albanian people
are
no different. The trick is to keep the pressure on for resolution while
maintaining stability to reduce the potential for bloodshed. Calling for
unreasoned action will not advance the cause for justice.
Best regards,
Joe De Natale