[STOCKPHOTO] Archival Gold CDs and DVDs

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Jacques Jangoux

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Jan 4, 2007, 8:18:40 PM1/4/07
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Hello,

I mentioned SlideScribe in my previous post. Surfing around their site
I found Archival Gold CDs and DVDs of the eFilm brand. Anybody knows them?

< http://www.slidescribe.com/cmdn.shtml >

I knew of the Delkin ones. Or is eFilm another brand name for the same
product?

(I had discontinued Kodak ones a few years ago, but my son "stole"
most of them to burn MP3 music).

Jacques Jangoux

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David Riecks

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Jan 5, 2007, 1:46:54 AM1/5/07
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At 11:06 AM 1/4/2007, Jacques Jangoux wrote:
>I knew of the Delkin ones. Or is eFilm another brand name for the same
>product?

Jacques:

If you look at the image of the Gold CD, you'll see that it says
Delkin right on the CD cover.

I was reviewing an article with preliminary results of a NIST test on
CDR's and DVDR's. The Phthalocyanine dye paired with a Gold CDR was
the longest lasting. With most of the DVDR's it's harder to find info
on what Dye they are using, but most at that time, 2004, seemed to be
using Cyanine dyes.

I've been using up the last of stockpile of Kodak CDR's and have been
purchasing the Mitsui/MAM Gold CDR's from Media Supply when I need
the type with a white inkjet printable top.

Hope that helps.

David

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david@riecks.com http://www.riecks.com/
Midwest/Chicago ASMP

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Peter Dean

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Jan 5, 2007, 3:09:55 AM1/5/07
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>
>I've been using up the last of stockpile of Kodak CDR's and have been
>purchasing the Mitsui/MAM Gold CDR's from Media Supply when I need
>the type with a white inkjet printable top.
>

David
I just bought a large number of MAM-e from a UK supplier who was
informing his clients MAM-e had gone bust.

Maybe it was just a sales ploy ? ;-))
Hopefully it will continue if rescued? Does anyone know anything i
don't?

The BBC use a lot of these archive DVD's with Phthalocyanine dye. I
still prefer my archive on CD but use DVD for working files. If you want
to know what to use as an archive if MAM-e are bust then watch what the
BBC do and follow.

cheers

Pete
--
Peter Dean (Photographer)
agripicture.com
+44(0)1398 331598

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Picture Partners

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Jan 5, 2007, 8:23:25 AM1/5/07
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Peter -

And Fuji? The CD's are silver as far as I know, but a 100 year life is promised:

http://www.fujifilm.ca/x854.xml

Frans Rombout
www.picturepartners.nl

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Ian Murray

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Jan 5, 2007, 8:48:31 AM1/5/07
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Dear all,

Surely the future will be online storage - its already happening with
Digital Railroad and Photoshelter - with duplicate storage sites
around the world with the ability to download and transfer files
anywhere. We'll just process files and then automatically click to
move them to our secure upload area. Agencies will expect high res
delivery online and the idea of mailing shiny disks around the world
or storing them in cabinets will seem laughable. It'll take time
until this is trusted fully but surely it's going to come. Isn't it?

Ian Murray

--- In STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com, "Picture Partners" <PICTURE@...>
wrote:


>
> Peter -
>
> And Fuji? The CD's are silver as far as I know, but a 100 year life
is promised:
>
> http://www.fujifilm.ca/x854.xml
>
> Frans Rombout
> www.picturepartners.nl
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Peter Dean
> To: STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 9:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [STOCKPHOTO] Archival Gold CDs and DVDs
>
>

> In message <6.2.3.4.2.20070105004152.05ba7c18@...>, David
> Riecks <david@...> writes

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Rob Wilkinson

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Jan 5, 2007, 9:49:21 AM1/5/07
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Ian Murray wrote:
> Surely the future will be online storage - its already happening with
> Digital Railroad and Photoshelter - with duplicate storage sites
> around the world with the ability to download and transfer files
> anywhere. We'll just process files and then automatically click to
> move them to our secure upload area. Agencies will expect high res
> delivery online and the idea of mailing shiny disks around the world
> or storing them in cabinets will seem laughable. It'll take time
> until this is trusted fully but surely it's going to come. Isn't it?

You are probably right, I'm sure that will be the future .... but how
safe are the servers that they are stored on ... isn't that just
another hard drive somewhere?
Think I will still back up to CD too (just in case!!).
Cheers
Rob Wilkinson
_______________________________
Portfolio: http://www.robwilkinson.com
Mob: 07836 545 556
_______________________________



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David Riecks

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Jan 5, 2007, 10:17:37 AM1/5/07
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Ian Murray wrote:

> Dear all,


>
> Surely the future will be online storage - its already happening with
> Digital Railroad and Photoshelter - with duplicate storage sites
> around the world with the ability to download and transfer files
> anywhere.

Ian:

Feel free to base your livelihood on backup copies on online services.
I'm not sure I'm that confident that the service I choose will never go
out of business, or decide to increase my costs of storage to the point
where it's prohibitive to leave my information there.

With that in mind I'm going to have at least one archival copy (and
preferably one onsite and one offsite) under my control. One of those
might be on Gold CDR or Gold DVDR.


David

--
David Riecks (that's "i" before "e", but the "e" is silent)

http://www.riecks.com , Chicago Midwest ASMP member
http://zillionbucks.com "The Webhost for your Creative Business"
Chair, SAA Imaging Technology Standards committee
Version 2 of the Controlled Vocabulary Keyword Catalog is out
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Peter Dean

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Jan 5, 2007, 10:38:54 AM1/5/07
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In message <enlkso+h3gp@eGroups.com>, Ian Murray
<idmurray@totalise.co.uk> writes


>Dear all,
>
>Surely the future will be online storage

Ian
I was talking about that place full of dust and cobwebs you don't go
until there is a catastrophe. Ideally this should be in a secure nuclear
bunker! :-) I would regard online storage as a good working archive and
a useful backup as a bonus.



Pete

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Peter Dean

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Jan 5, 2007, 10:51:16 AM1/5/07
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In message <00a201c730ca$2fc19010$0b01a8c0@SCANCOMPUTER>, Picture
Partners <PICTURE@XS4ALL.NL> writes


>Peter -
>
>And Fuji? The CD's are silver as far as I know, but a 100 year life is
>promised:
>

Frans
I will let you know in 100 years ;-)
I think the colours are more related to branding than precious metal but
even if they do contain gold or silver if they don't contain the
unpronounceable and difficult to spell dye i would not regard them as
"archival" . But who knows for sure? Its all a best guesstimate at best;
eh?



cheers
Pete

--
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agripicture.com
+44(0)1398 331598

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Ian Murray

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Jan 5, 2007, 11:11:56 AM1/5/07
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> Ian
> I was talking about that place full of dust and cobwebs you don't go
> until there is a catastrophe.

Pete,

Like going home when the pub closes?

Cheers

Ian Murray

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Ian Murray

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Jan 5, 2007, 11:21:28 AM1/5/07
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David,

I wouldn't dream of doing so now but in ten to fifteen years I would
be surprised if the problems you mention hadn't been overcome, though
I'd probably still back up my RAWs! The idea of relying on entirely
online banking seemed outrageous only a short few years ago.

Now where are my floppy discs with all those essential Word files?

Ian Murray

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David Riecks

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Jan 5, 2007, 1:23:32 PM1/5/07
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At 02:08 AM 1/5/2007, Peter Dean wrote:
>The BBC use a lot of these archive DVD's with Phthalocyanine dye. I
>still prefer my archive on CD but use DVD for working files.

Peter:

How do you know that the DVDR's were created with Phthalocyanine
dye? Is that what MAM-e is claiming?



David

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Peter Dean

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Jan 5, 2007, 2:08:02 PM1/5/07
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>At 02:08 AM 1/5/2007, Peter Dean wrote:
>>The BBC use a lot of these archive DVD's with Phthalocyanine dye. I
>>still prefer my archive on CD but use DVD for working files.
>
>Peter:
>
>How do you know that the DVDR's were created with Phthalocyanine
>dye? Is that what MAM-e is claiming?
>
David

Our UK supplier cdteam.co.uk know a thing or three. Check their site.
Mam-e were making a DVD with the dye but the future is now uncertain.
The BBC were buying a lot of the DVD's. I am using the CD with the dye
but use a scratchproof "normal" TDK DVD for working files together with
hard drives for work in progress. I was considering using the DVD with
dye but its academic unless another company takes over the process. Lets
hope so. If not Taiyo Yuden discs look like replacements for archive if
mam-e don't resurrect according to CD team. If you check their site they
say TY discs may become available as DVD.

When you consider how many RAW files and jpgs will be deleted by
photographers before they get to be seen and the iffy nature of media it
will be a miracle if any 21C images make it to the 22C. But if they do
someone will probably put them in a disused salt mine so they can't be
seen anyway ;-)



cheers
Pete

--
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ARLETTE DESRANLEAU

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Jan 5, 2007, 7:43:07 PM1/5/07
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>I wouldn't dream of doing so now but in ten to fifteen years I would
>be surprised if the problems you mention hadn't been overcome, though
>I'd probably still back up my RAWs! The idea of relying on entirely
>online banking seemed outrageous only a short few years ago.

More than once in the last year or two I have seen entire systems (banking)
come to a grinding halt. ATMs don't function, the bank computers don't, and
because they are so paranoid . . . even if you can find a branch with a
teller, you won't get a cent "until the problem is cleared up sir". These
"systems" are run by "experts" . . . just like your on-line systems. Like
David, I will rely on someone reliable . . . me . . . and a bunch of dust
gathering cds.

Paul Aparycki

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Rubens Abboud

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Jan 5, 2007, 7:46:14 PM1/5/07
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--- In STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com, "David Riecks" <david@...> wrote:
>
> Ian Murray wrote:
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > Surely the future will be online storage - its already happening
with
> > Digital Railroad and Photoshelter - with duplicate storage sites
> > around the world with the ability to download and transfer files
> > anywhere.
>
> Ian:
>
> Feel free to base your livelihood on backup copies on online
services.
> I'm not sure I'm that confident that the service I choose will
never go
> out of business, or decide to increase my costs of storage to the
point
> where it's prohibitive to leave my information there.

Beyond this, online recovery is simply not a practical technology
for most photography operations. Assuming one only needs to recover
250GB of data (which is not a lot for a stock archive) it would take
over 19 days to download it over a dedicated T1 line (i.e. 1.5Mbps).

Of course, most of us do not have dedicated T1s, so a quick quiz to
those using online backups over high-speed cable or ADSL links:

Have you checked your high-speed cable or ADSL contracts to ensure
that your internet provider will allow you to download large amounts
of data in the event of a disaster? What about surcharges?

Have you considered that if you ever have to recover any of your
gigs of data as a result of a large scale natural or man-made
disaster, there's a high likelihood you'll be doing it from a motel
room with only dial-up access available? Have you considered this
might be the same motel housing hundreds of other guests that were
also displaced and who are likely clogging up the phone system with
their own emergencies?

There are much better options out there with 250GB external hard
drives costing less than $100, both in terms of cost, efficiency,
and practicality.

Best regards,

Rubens.
http://www.TheImageNation.com
Travel stock photography

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Ian Murray

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Jan 6, 2007, 4:29:47 AM1/6/07
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> Of course, most of us do not have dedicated T1s, so a quick quiz to
> those using online backups over high-speed cable or ADSL links:
>
> Have you checked your high-speed cable or ADSL contracts to ensure
> that your internet provider will allow you to download large amounts
> of data in the event of a disaster? What about surcharges?

Rubens,

Ten years ago I first bought a computer. There was next to nothing on
the web. No photo sites. No banking. No online stores. No proper seacrh
engines until Alta Vista. I had 56k dial up.

In 2117 how far will the internet have advanced?

Will computer still come with slots for CDs and DVDs- or will they be
expensive oddities?

I think that the infrastructure will move more and more online. People
will feel compelled to join in or be caught out just as some
traditional agencies have been by online agencies.

In the meantime I use several external hard drives plus DVDs.

Regards,

Ian Murray

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Ian Murray

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Jan 6, 2007, 4:43:41 AM1/6/07
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Erm...that should have been 2017. I have no plans for 2117 as yet.


>
> In 2117 how far will the internet have advanced?

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Picture Partners

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Jan 6, 2007, 7:13:10 AM1/6/07
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Peter,

Of course you're right. Easy to promise a 100 year lifetime for a CD or DVD,
if you never live that long to keep the promise. All we can hope for is that
test (simulations) can be done by indepentent scientists.
In the meantime, for safety reasons, I copy my five year old CD's to "archival" DVD's.
And for external harddisks? Hmmmm... in fact they are a small machienes and
therefore just as vulnerable as any computer.

Met groet,


Frans Rombout
www.picturepartners.nl

----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Dean
To: STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: [STOCKPHOTO] Archival Gold CDs and DVDs

In message <00a201c730ca$2fc19010$0b01a8c0@SCANCOMPUTER>, Picture
Partners <PICTURE@XS4ALL.NL> writes
>Peter -
>
>And Fuji? The CD's are silver as far as I know, but a 100 year life is
>promised:
>
Frans
I will let you know in 100 years ;-)
I think the colours are more related to branding than precious metal but
even if they do contain gold or silver if they don't contain the
unpronounceable and difficult to spell dye i would not regard them as
"archival" . But who knows for sure? Its all a best guesstimate at best;
eh?

cheers
Pete

--
Peter Dean (Photographer)
agripicture.com
+44(0)1398 331598

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John Fowler

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Jan 6, 2007, 9:38:18 AM1/6/07
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--- In STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com, Peter Dean <peter@...> wrote:
>
> In message <enlkso+h3gp@...>, Ian Murray
> <idmurray@...> writes
> >Dear all,
Pete
Interesting that PhotoShelter duplicates files at separate
locations on each coast of the US. Good thinking, it seems to me,
even if I don't store full size files there (yet).



> >
> >Surely the future will be online storage
>
> Ian
> I was talking about that place full of dust and cobwebs you don't
go
> until there is a catastrophe. Ideally this should be in a secure
nuclear
> bunker! :-) I would regard online storage as a good working archive
and
> a useful backup as a bonus.
>
> Pete
>
> --
> Peter Dean (Photographer)
> agripicture.com
> +44(0)1398 331598
>

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John Fowler

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Jan 6, 2007, 9:41:59 AM1/6/07
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--- In STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com, "ARLETTE DESRANLEAU" <tawow@...>
wrote:
As one with managament experience at a major bank I can tell you
that's one service where you need redundancy - complete separation of
banking organizations and especially complete separation of
credit/asset functions. Keep your money here, borrow there.



> More than once in the last year or two I have seen entire systems
(banking)
> come to a grinding halt. ATMs don't function, the bank computers
don't, and
> because they are so paranoid . . . even if you can find a branch
with a
> teller, you won't get a cent "until the problem is cleared up sir".
These
> "systems" are run by "experts" . . . just like your on-line
systems. Like
> David, I will rely on someone reliable . . . me . . . and a bunch
of dust
> gathering cds.
>
> Paul Aparycki
>

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Jacques Jangoux

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Jan 6, 2007, 10:12:17 AM1/6/07
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Anyway in 2117 with global warming all CDs and DVDs will have melted...

Jacques Jangoux



--- In STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com, "Ian Murray" <idmurray@...> wrote:
>
>
> Erm...that should have been 2017. I have no plans for 2117 as yet.
> >
> > In 2117 how far will the internet have advanced?
>
> Ian Murray
>

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Rubens Abboud

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Jan 6, 2007, 3:41:27 PM1/6/07
to

--- In STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com, "Ian Murray" <idmurray@...> wrote:

> Ten years ago I first bought a computer. There was next to nothing
on
> the web. No photo sites. No banking. No online stores. No proper
seacrh
> engines until Alta Vista. I had 56k dial up.
>
> In 2117 how far will the internet have advanced?

The point was simply that online backup/restore technology is
impractical for today's digital photographer.

You cannot evaluate the long-term viability of a specific technology
in a vaccum.

Consider that slightly over ten years ago, there were no compact flash
cards. Today the technology exists to make a 64GB CF possible.

In 2017, how many people will be backing up online if they can carry
their entire photo archive in a 1TB compact flash card in their shirt
pocket?

Or what if compact flash will no longer be necessary as most of us
will have a 200 mega-pixel retinal implant directly connected to a
SLIMY (SLug Implant MemorY) attached behind our ears once they
discover that a common snail actually has 54 quadrillion zillion
penises and each one of them can be controlled to an erect or floppy
state (binary 1 = erect; 0 = floppy) with an electrical charge?



Best regards,

Rubens.
http://www.TheImageNation.com
Travel stock photography

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Jacques Jangoux

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Jan 6, 2007, 3:50:55 PM1/6/07
to

John, Peter, Ian,

What if a hurricane destroys the server on the East Coast and North
Korea sends a nuclear bomb on the server on the West Coast? Better
keep a DVD at home...

Jacques Jangoux

--- In STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com, "John Fowler" <john@...> wrote:
>
> --- In STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com, Peter Dean <peter@> wrote:
> >
> > In message <enlkso+h3gp@>, Ian Murray
> > <idmurray@> writes


> > >Dear all,
> Pete
> Interesting that PhotoShelter duplicates files at separate
> locations on each coast of the US. Good thinking, it seems to me,
> even if I don't store full size files there (yet).

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Ian Murray

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Jan 6, 2007, 3:58:01 PM1/6/07
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> The point was simply that online backup/restore technology is
> impractical for today's digital photographer.

Rubens,

Have a look at Photoshelter.

Ian Murray

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Rubens Abboud

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Jan 7, 2007, 12:21:06 AM1/7/07
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--- In STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com, "Ian Murray" <idmurray@...> wrote:
>
>

> > The point was simply that online backup/restore technology is
> > impractical for today's digital photographer.
>
> Rubens,
>
> Have a look at Photoshelter.
>
> Ian Murray

Ian,

As a stock photographer, I would not use Photoshelter as an online
backup/restore solution for the reasons already stated.

One can ooh-and-ahh the technology behind geographically redundant
online backups all one wants, but backups without a practical
recovery strategy is worth diddly-squat. My own recovery time
objective (a.k.a. RTO) is measured in hours, not days, and especially
not 19+ days as is the case of Photoshelter and other similar online
backup services (assuming 250GB of data).



Best regards,

Rubens.
http://www.TheImageNation.com
Travel stock photography

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Ian Murray

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Jan 7, 2007, 4:40:12 AM1/7/07
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> Ian,
>
> As a stock photographer, I would not use Photoshelter as an online
> backup/restore solution for the reasons already stated.
>
> One can ooh-and-ahh the technology behind geographically redundant
> online backups all one wants, but backups without a practical
> recovery strategy is worth diddly-squat. My own recovery time
> objective (a.k.a. RTO) is measured in hours, not days, and
especially
> not 19+ days as is the case of Photoshelter and other similar
online
> backup services (assuming 250GB of data).
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rubens.
> http://www.TheImageNation.com
> Travel stock photography

Dear Rubens,

I'm not a salesman for Photoshelter but have been very impressed by
them as a customer. It is a very young company and the original basis
of their vision was that of providing online storage at low cost. One
very big advantage to somebody like me with a slow internet
connection is this. Once my images are uploaded I can distribute them
using Photoshelter's very fast internet connection. I have sent
images by ftp from my archive there and they go incredibly fast (
compared to what I am used to!). Of course I still back up all my
images here next to me on DVD and hard disk. But I see a glimpse of
the future in what Photoshelter is offering today. They have several
geographically distinct back ups, I could have several of my own (
yes, in the future when prices get lower for huge masses of space)
and move images around the world to various agencies and storage
sites while I go for a walk or sleep.

Perhaps another feature we will have in the future is online Raw
processing/Photoshop so that after a shoot we'll upload our memory
card and do the editing, uprezzing, keywording, sorting, filing,
dispatch to agencies and storage facilities, and all the rest,
online.

Maybe the ability to offer such a service to agencies/distributors
will sort out those serious about stock from the weekend hobbysists?

This is just pure New Year speculation by the way.

Regards,

Ian Murray

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Rubens Abboud

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Jan 7, 2007, 10:15:43 AM1/7/07
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--- In STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com, "Ian Murray" <idmurray@...> wrote:

>One
> very big advantage to somebody like me with a slow internet
> connection is this. Once my images are uploaded I can distribute them
> using Photoshelter's very fast internet connection. I have sent
> images by ftp from my archive there and they go incredibly fast (
> compared to what I am used to!).

Ian,

Any web host that offers shell access has the same feature.



Best regards,

Rubens.
http://www.TheImageNation.com
Travel stock photography

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Jacques Jangoux

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Jan 7, 2007, 6:51:11 PM1/7/07