[STOCKPHOTO] Question about RM
monica
When you are selling RM through any agency, portal...
do you get to see the final user's name?
or this is just like RF... you never know who has your image?
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Peter Bennett
>
> From: "monica" <storekit@gmail.com>
> When you are selling RM through any agency, portal...
> do you get to see the final user's name?
> or this is just like RF... you never know who has your image?
>
>
> From: "soundkite" <soundkite@yahoo.com>
>
> Sure Shangara... Releasing the name of the client could reduce future
> sales to the agency by making it easier for the photographer to market
> directly. Agencies also claim that this would be more work for them,
> too, but I don't believe that one. Another obscure reason could be
> that some clients don't wish to be 'known' prior to publication of an
> image.
Monica, Ethan
There seems to be a lot of concern for finding out information about end
users. I can tell you that as both an agent and a photographer who has
images on file with other agencies, it is not common practice to give out
this information to photographers. However, confirming that a particular
sale was made to a client would be perfectly fine if you saw an image of
yours in a publication and could not account for it.
And actually, it is more work to provide details about all sales, although
the type of usage and the industry are commonly found in most sales reports.
There is also nothing nefarious about withholding client info. There is a
lot of money and time spent seeking out good clients and then nurturing them
to remain so. If a photographer asked me for a client's information, my
first and obvious question would be: why? If it's a photographer I trust and
have worked with for a while, I would not be afraid about them circumventing
me to establish a relationship with the client, but I would still want to
know the reasons.
So in fact why do you want this information? If you are new to stock
photography and want to see samples of your work, you might be able to ask
for tear sheets. Your agent may be able to get some for you, but these would
be in most cases a better than average usage like a full page or cover use,
not your average 1/4 page use.
Hope that helps.
Peter Bennett
Ambient Images Inc.
P: 310-312-6640
Specializing in New York and California images
http://www.californiastockphoto.com
http://www.newyorkstockphoto.com
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soundkite
Peter, your assessment is spot on with my own. My original post
refers to determining a client's origins only if I suspect copyright
infringement.
Ethan
>
> So in fact why do you want this information? If you are new to
stock
> photography and want to see samples of your work, you might be
able to ask
> for tear sheets. Your agent may be able to get some for you, but
these would
> be in most cases a better than average usage like a full page or
cover use,
> not your average 1/4 page use.
>
> Hope that helps.
>
> Peter Bennett
> Ambient Images Inc.
> P: 310-312-6640
>
> Specializing in New York and California images
> http://www.californiastockphoto.com
> http://www.newyorkstockphoto.com
>
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Singh, Shangara
On 26 Nov 2006, at 03:15, soundkite wrote:
> Peter, your assessment is spot on with my own. My original post
> refers to determining a client's origins only if I suspect copyright
> infringement.
And if you knew the Daily Blah Blah had bought your image, as opposed
to "Media: Newspaper - National," I could track the image. If the
usage was "Placement: Inside, Image Size: 1/8 page" only and I found
it on their free CD or their website, I can report it to the agency.
Shangara Singh.
Author & Photographer
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Peter Bennett
>
> From: "Singh, Shangara" <forum_talk@mpxstockimages.co.uk>
>
> And if you knew the Daily Blah Blah had bought your image, as opposed
> to "Media: Newspaper - National," I could track the image. If the
> usage was "Placement: Inside, Image Size: 1/8 page" only and I found
> it on their free CD or their website, I can report it to the agency.
>
Shangara,
If you are referring to editorial sales, keep in mind that by the time it
appears on your sales report, it will have long come and gone in most cases,
as payment and reports are often 2-3 months after the initial sale. Textbook
sales will not be accessible at all to track. Alamy is an anomaly in that
you receive sales reports in real time, but they are really the only case I
know of where that happens.
And even though Alamy may call itself a portal, they really function as an
agency in some regards and will not be as forthcoming about sales contacts
as a true portal where relationships between photographer and client are
closer. As they spend considerable resources to foster their client
relationships, I think this is perfectly understandable.
In a perfect system, agency and photographer would work together to prevent
mis-use, but that's not the real world in our industry. Most agencies will
tell you that they want to be the party responsible for monitoring, but
whether or not they do a throughout job of it is another story.
Peter Bennett
Ambient Images Inc.
P: 310-312-6640
Specializing in New York and California images
http://www.californiastockphoto.com
http://www.newyorkstockphoto.com
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Ed Verkaik
From: "Peter Bennett" <pb@ambientimages.com>
> As they spend considerable resources to foster their client
> relationships, I think this is perfectly understandable.
>
> In a perfect system, agency and photographer would work together to
prevent
> mis-use, but that's not the real world in our industry. Most agencies will
> tell you that they want to be the party responsible for monitoring, but
> whether or not they do a throughout job of it is another story.
Yes, there is a large gap between what is done and what *should* be done.
But in your previous post you were defending the practices of agencies to
withhold information, which I think is completely unjustified. When our
photograph is used by a company somewhere, we have the right to know
*exactly* how, where and when that use occurs regardless of the perceived
risks to agencies. That is the only way to keep both parties honest AND to
allow you as creator to maintain control over your work. Anything less is an
abuse of the privilege an agency has to sell our work.
Ed Verkaik
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David Barr
>Anything less is an
>abuse of the privilege an agency has to sell our work.
>
>Ed Verkaik
>
This Ed is exactly the mind set that every photographer should work
on developing. The agency has the privilege of marketing your
pictures. The agency and photographer should be working as a team
and the photographer must trust his agency and the agency must trust
the photographers they represent. Withholding information from
photographers is hardly an act of trust. If a photographer licenses
images through several agencies how reliable can picture histories be
if all the agencies are secretive about who has licensed the
pictures. The only person that can keep track when using several
agencies is the photographer so keeping the photographer informed is
to everybody's advantage.
David Barr
--
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Simplify your Search http://www.photobar.com
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Jim Hunter
David Barr wrote:
> The agency and photographer should be working as a team
> and the photographer must trust his agency and the agency must trust
> the photographers they represent. Withholding information from
> photographers is hardly an act of trust.
At the Picture Archive Council of America (PACA) 2006 International
Conference held in Key West, Florida, October 20-22, 2006, Roger
Ressmeyer, president of PACA gave a speech entitled The Storm Before the
Calm.
Roger had a number of interesting things to say but in regards to the
current topic, be sure to skip down to the section titled "Our
Suppliers" where Roger talks about the current state of relationships
that exist between stock distributors and image suppliers.
You can read Roger's entire speech here:
http://www.stockasylum.com/text-pages/articles/a6fa102006-ressmeyer.htm
--
Jim Hunter
Assignment - Stock - Fine Art
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Peter Bennett
Ed,
There is a big difference between withholding client info in a sales report
as I was talking about, and withholding it under any circumstances which I
think you are talking about. Photographers absolutely have the right to know
that information if they request it. I have always been forthcoming to
anyone of my photographers who ask. But I am a very small agency, and I have
had experiences where one of my photographers went behind my back to a
client I had sold a picture of his to. I was not happy. As I am a small
agency, these things have a more profound impact.
I am also not going to speak on the behalf of all stock agents, but I would
guess, aside from the additional paperwork, most agencies will not make that
extra effort for something that may in fact hurt them, and that was my
point. In my case the info is there for the asking, but I¹m not going to
make it part of my normal practice. Frankly, it has never been an issue with
anybody I represent.
I once had a contract with an agent that prevented my from doing business
with any client I met through my agent until something like one year after
my contract was over. Perhaps adding a clause like that to a contract would
open the door for agents to provide client info in a more detailed fashion.
Peter Bennett
Ambient Images Inc.
P: 310-312-6640
Specializing in New York and California images
http://www.californiastockphoto.com
http://www.newyorkstockphoto.com
> From: "Ed Verkaik" <verkaik@sympatico.ca>
>
>
> From: "Peter Bennett" <pb@ambientimages.com <mailto:pb%40ambientimages.com> >
>> > As they spend considerable resources to foster their client
>> > relationships, I think this is perfectly understandable.
>> >
>> > In a perfect system, agency and photographer would work together to
> prevent
>> > mis-use, but that's not the real world in our industry. Most agencies will
>> > tell you that they want to be the party responsible for monitoring, but
>> > whether or not they do a throughout job of it is another story.
>
> Yes, there is a large gap between what is done and what *should* be done.
> But in your previous post you were defending the practices of agencies to
> withhold information, which I think is completely unjustified. When our
> photograph is used by a company somewhere, we have the right to know
> *exactly* how, where and when that use occurs regardless of the perceived
> risks to agencies. That is the only way to keep both parties honest AND to
> allow you as creator to maintain control over your work. Anything less is an
> abuse of the privilege an agency has to sell our work.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Thomas Hallstein
As a contributor to several image non-exclusive stock collections, I think the only time the end user's use needs to be detailed to the photographer is when an image is licensed with an exclusivity - which the agency should have asked me about to begin with. Outside of that, or until a client asks about an image's prior uses, I really don't care who has used what for one-time, non-exclusive uses.
But the information needs to be available for those times when I need to investigate an image's use history.
Best to All,
Tom
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
Thomas Hallstein
Outsight Photography
Santa Rosa, CA USA
http://www.outsight.com
i l l u s t r a t i o n t o i n s p i r a t i o n
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
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Singh, Shangara
On 26 Nov 2006, at 16:21, Peter Bennett wrote:
>
> If you are referring to editorial sales, keep in mind that by the
> time it
> appears on your sales report, it will have long come and gone in
> most cases,
> as payment and reports are often 2-3 months after the initial sale.
Peter
I doubt if any photographer likes the self-abuse, sorry, the self-
billing method of payment.
> And even though Alamy may call itself a portal, they really
> function as an
> agency in some regards and will not be as forthcoming about sales
> contacts
> as a true portal where relationships between photographer and
> client are
> closer.
I wouldn't expect them to disclose sales contacts, just the
publisher, which will become public knowledge sooner or later, so why
not sooner, like at the point of sale?
>
> In a perfect system, agency and photographer would work together to
> prevent
> mis-use, but that's not the real world in our industry. Most
> agencies will
> tell you that they want to be the party responsible for monitoring,
> but
> whether or not they do a throughout job of it is another story.
It's a numbers game. They can afford to lose a million where a
photographer can afford to lose only a thousand; they can afford to
lose a thousand where a photographer can afford to lose only a
tenner. They have to employ extra staff, which cuts into profits, and
be prepared to take clients to court but instead they prefer to turn
a blind eye or pursue only the same payment as if the client hadn't
abused the licence terms in the first place or "turn them into paying
customers." I paraphrase Getty.
It needs a couple of high profile court cases to make publishers take
note. Not too long ago, the London College of Printing was fined 1/4
million GBP (1/2 million USD) when illegal fonts were found on their
machines and they got their act together pretty quick.
Shangara Singh.
Author & Photographer
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Peter Bennett
> From: "Singh, Shangara" <forum_talk@mpxstockimages.co.uk>
> Peter
>
> I doubt if any photographer likes the self-abuse, sorry, the self-
> billing method of payment.
>
> It's a numbers game. They can afford to lose a million where a
> photographer can afford to lose only a thousand; they can afford to
> lose a thousand where a photographer can afford to lose only a
> tenner.
>
Shangara,
It's impossible to have a discussion about this if you lump all agencies
together. I don't know many agencies that can afford to lose a million, or
even a few thousand for that matter. There are a few huge agencies that deal
in millions, but the majority of agencies are small to medium ones that are
struggling like the rest of us to stay in business in a climate that is
changing and unpredictable. Just when you think you have a hold of things
along comes something like micrtostock that takes another chunk out of your
sales.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the "the self-abuse, sorry, the
self-billing method of payment", but if you are referring to the fact that
payments are delayed a few months, it is not a case of holding on to funds
as it is a case of cash flow. I spend way too much time getting clients to
pay on time and have to place numerous emails and phone calls to that
effect. Maybe that's what you mean by self abuse. I don't enjoy it, I would
much rather have my payments come in on 30 net and pay my photographers even
sooner, but that is the business world we live in.
People ask that agencies trust the photographers, but I don't hear a lot of
trust or respect going the other way either. Photographer's: good, agency's:
bad, doesn't cut it. A fruitful discussion can only come from identifying
the good agencies from the bad ones. Frankly I would like to see
photographers taking more responsibility and control of the their
livelihood, staying away from rotten deals like the recent Getty proposal,
and seeking out solutions whereby reliance on agencies will lessen.
If that sounds contradictory, I assure you it isn't. Smart photographers
make for better relationships with ethical and upstanding agencies. Smart
photographers don't enable bad business models like RF and micro to
flourish. Smart photographers know when a good agent can help them, and when
they can also help themselves and get that 100% of a nice six figure sale
and not 35% (I pay 50-65% by the way). All agents are not bad by nature,
only bad agents are bad.
Peter Bennett
Ambient Images Inc.
P: 310-312-6640
Specializing in New York and California images
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Jacques Jangoux
Monica,
First, please sign your full name at the end of your posts.
To reply to your question, some agencies give you the name of the
client, some don´t.
Jacques Jangoux
--- In STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com, "monica" <storekit@...> wrote:
>
> When you are selling RM through any agency, portal...
>
> do you get to see the final user's name?
>
> or this is just like RF... you never know who has your image?
>
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Peter Bennett
These links were posted on another forum and I am posting them here with the
permission of the original poster. The first link is more the state of our
industry essentially in relation to microstocks. The second link is a
speculative state of things to come in 2007.
http://tinyurl.com/y6z9w6
- and one more...
2007 predictions for the stock photography industry
http://tinyurl.com/smo2s
Peter Bennett
Ambient Images Inc.
P: 310-312-6640
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Ian Murray
> These links were posted on another forum and I am posting them here
with the
> permission of the original poster. The first link is more the state
of our
> industry essentially in relation to microstocks. The second link is
a
> speculative state of things to come in 2007.
>
Peter ,
This is your source
Quote "Bryan Zmijewski is the founder and chief instigator of
LuckyOliver, a micropayment stock photography website." End Quote
Ian
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Peter Bennett
Ian,
The first article is by Chris Ferrone who worked at Index and was president
of PACA, according to his bio.
The second article has some interesting points in spite of it¹s slant and
was in the original post, so included it here. Consider the source, but
don¹t discount all he says. Sometimes the enemy can give you more insight in
the situation than others.
>
Peter Bennett
Ambient Images Inc.
P: 310-312-6640
Specializing in New York and California images
http://www.californiastockphoto.com
http://www.newyorkstockphoto.com
From: "Ian Murray" <idmurray@totalise.co.uk>
>
>> > These links were posted on another forum and I am posting them here
> with the
>> > permission of the original poster. The first link is more the state
> of our
>> > industry essentially in relation to microstocks. The second link is
> a
>> > speculative state of things to come in 2007.
>> >
>
> Peter ,
>
> This is your source
>
> Quote "Bryan Zmijewski is the founder and chief instigator of
> LuckyOliver, a micropayment stock photography website." End Quote
>
> Ian
>
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Jim Hargan
I like "traditional RF". An entire tradition has grown and died since
the invention of the CD-Rom! This is one fast-paced industry.
Jim Hargan
www.harganonline.com
Peter Bennett wrote:
>
> These links were posted on another forum and I am posting them here with the
> permission of the original poster. The first link is more the state of our
> industry essentially in relation to microstocks. The second link is a
> speculative state of things to come in 2007.
>
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Stockphoto Seller
For another overview of penny-ante stock without having to look at the disgusting pimping for junk stock companies, see David Walker's article in the November, 2006, Photo District News.
Carl May/BPS
Peter Bennett <pb@ambientimages.com> wrote:
These links were posted on another forum and I am posting them here with the
permission of the original poster. The first link is more the state of our
industry essentially in relation to microstocks. The second link is a
speculative state of things to come in 2007.
http://tinyurl.com/y6z9w6
- and one more...
2007 predictions for the stock photography industry
http://tinyurl.com/smo2s
Peter Bennett
Ambient Images Inc.
P: 310-312-6640
Specializing in New York and California images
http://www.californiastockphoto.com
http://www.newyorkstockphoto.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Peter Bennett
Carl,
What I found disturbing in the first article were a few things. First, that
PACA had a panel of micro agency principals at their conference. It
shouldn't surprise me, but it just lends authenticity to them. Can they also
become members?
Two, that $1.63 world ever appear as an average for any kind of stock sale.
Third and most importantly, that the big agencies, especially Getty, have no
idea of what to do about the 800 pound gorilla in the room (is it supposed
to be 900 pounds?). Even though they bought the largest micro out there,
they cannot control it, and it will continue to eat into their and others
profit quite substantially it seems.
In the article you mentioned in PDN, the point that stood out for me was
Jonathan Oringer of Shutterstock saying that photographers are beating down
his doors to submit. It sounds like even the micros can't control the
micros. They don't have the manpower in many case to deal with the in
pouring of images. You are already starting to see changes being made at
some micros to filter out the garbage images and raise the standards for
providers.
What I did like in the second article on predictions for 2007, was amidst
all the micro rambling, was a paragraph about photographers banding
together. This is something we can all take to heart. It's as follows:
"More photographers will move out of traditional stock and will band
together on their own: If you own the pixels, you have the biggest
opportunity to make the money--if you know what you're doing. As web tools
become easier to use and traditional stock photographers find it
increasingly frustrating that they aren't selling as many images as they'd
like, I think photographers with varying business talents will band together
to actively sell and market their photos online with terms that are more
beneficial to them. Photographers who are used to earning hundreds of
dollars on a single photo may still look at high-volume, low-cost sales as a
slap in their faces, so creating their own photographer 'teams' will be
their next step. I think we'll see a continued increase in niche stock
agencies in 2007. Middle tier companies will be squeezed."
Peter Bennett
Ambient Images Inc.
P: 310-312-6640
Specializing in New York and California images
http://www.californiastockphoto.com
http://www.newyorkstockphoto.com
>
> From: Stockphoto Seller <bpslistmail@pacbell.net>
> Reply-To: STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:31:27 -0800 (PST)
> To: STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [STOCKPHOTO] Editorial: Scary math A closer look at Micro-Stock
> numbers
>
> For another overview of penny-ante stock without having to look at the
> disgusting pimping for junk stock companies, see David Walker's article in the
> November, 2006, Photo District News.
>
> Carl May/BPS
>
> Peter Bennett <pb@ambientimages.com <mailto:pb%40ambientimages.com> > wrote:
>
> These links were posted on another forum and I am posting them here with the
> permission of the original poster. The first link is more the state of our
> industry essentially in relation to microstocks. The second link is a
> speculative state of things to come in 2007.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/y6z9w6
>
> - and one more...
>
> 2007 predictions for the stock photography industry
>
> http://tinyurl.com/smo2s
>
> Peter Bennett
> Ambient Images Inc.
> P: 310-312-6640
>
> Specializing in New York and California images
> http://www.californiastockphoto.com
> http://www.newyorkstockphoto.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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Chuck Goodenough
I'm just wondering who's gonna start the 50cent mini micro agency?
Someone has to put those micros out of business!
Who's with me!
;-o
Chuck
--
Chuck Goodenough Photo in Los Angeles:
http://www.chuckgoodenough.com
Phone: 213-624-1600 Fax: 213-232-3335
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Stockphoto Seller
Peter et al.,
It's much too easy to get caught up in the minutiae of the moment. Why is everyone so worried about Getty? Long ago most of the stock photo world, including most stock photographers, ceded leadership of the industry to Getty and Corbis rather than make them act with long-term integrity. Just look at the fawning comments on this message board, exceeded only by the nebbishes desperate to have one of the big photo aggregators take their images no matter what the bad deal for the image maker. Though it is important to keep informed on what the biggest players in the industry are doing in order to do the best one can for oneself in the market atmosphere created, it is not necessary to play their silly corporate games (or worry about them, either).
PACA? Another non-worry of mine. At one time, in the late 80's when they were still about photo agencies, they sat on my application to join without so much as a courtesy letter to explain why they were not interested in having us. Since then they have fudged away part of their former, laudable Code of Ethics (my only reason for wishing to support them in the first place), embraced RF even though the pricing method seemed to violate a couple of their historic principles, and dropped the word "agency" in favor of "archive," presumably to allow distinct non-agencies like the big conglomerate aggregators, portals, and RF shills to take part. So who cares if they now accept the growing dregs of junk stock? Does that make it more likely you will also start selling in the sewer to the clients who have taken up fishing there?
Photographers have been banding together to advance their lot forever. It remains a good idea for those who do not wish to owe their souls to the corporate stores.
Carl May/BPS
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Ian Murray
Chuck,
How about free? Tick the box for commercial use and try your luck:
http://creativecommons.org/image/
The big con of FlickR ( owned by Yahoo) is that they encourage
people to sign up to Creative Commons licences when quite likely a
lot of these people have no idea what it all means.
Oh yes, the other clever thing that Yahoo have done is introduce
a 'Pro' category on FlickR so that you pay for the privelege of
uploading more photos for peoiple to use for free.
Didn't Carl predict such a business where you pay to give away your
photos?
Ian Murray
--- In STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com, Chuck Goodenough <chuck@...>
wrote:
>
> I'm just wondering who's gonna start the 50cent mini micro agency?
>
> Someone has to put those micros out of business!
>
> Who's with me!
>
> ;-o
>
> Chuck
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Peter Bennett
Carl,
To be honest, there are plenty of times I don¹t want to know any of the crap
that goes on in our insane little business. It¹s either too distracting from
all the chores I have running a small agency (I know you know what that is
like), or I get too emotionally caught up and find my creative thoughts
taken over by fearful and angry ones. But then there are times, when I find
myself inexorably attracted to all that goes on in our industry, an industry
as dysfunctional as it is attractive. I¹ve been in that place lately. And
when I can take a more observational and dispassionate view of things, it is
as compelling as a soap opera and also quite educational. The former is fun,
the latter helps me set the course for my business.
In a way I was lucky in that last year I had several sales fall through as
the result of micros. I didn¹t feel lucky at the time, but it served me in
that I could start to see what was coming. I try not to be apocalyptic, but
it was obvious to me that big changes were coming (as they always seem to be
these days in our business). I know people who monitor the micro forums to
get a better idea of what¹s going on. I don¹t want to go that far, but it
has been educational to read about and engage in conversations about the
impact micros, RF and subscription stock is having on those of us who have
come from traditional stock licensing backgrounds.
As for Getty, I'm actually not worried, but I think they are. This may in
fact be the beginning of a slow decline in not only their business, but more
importantly their influence and their attraction. Their two latest big
moves, buying iStock and the Pay to Play part of their Innovative Lifesize
Collection, strike me more of reactive moves as opposed to proactive
leadership.
I once considered joining PACA. I¹ve heard it offers a lot of networking
possibilities for small and start up agencies, but I never applied. I think
I felt much the same as you that they would not be looking out for my best
interests. Although their influence is somewhat diluted these days, they are
still a force in the industry, and it was somewhat disappointing to see them
sucking up to the micros as if they were part of our community.
As for banding together, I would say there are different levels. As
technology offers more solutions (as well as headaches) there may be more
opportunities to work together for mutual benefit than previously. That's
what I want to keep my eye our for
Peter Bennett
Ambient Images Inc.
P: 310-312-6640
Specializing in New York and California images
http://www.californiastockphoto.com
http://www.newyorkstockphoto.com
From: Stockphoto Seller <bpslistmail@pacbell.net>
> Reply-To: STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 21:28:57 -0800 (PST)
> To: STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [STOCKPHOTO] Editorial: Scary math A closer look at Micro-Stock
> numbers
>
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Stockphoto Seller
Peter et al.,
As you have seen, Brian Seed and a few colleagues are starting one RM (hopefully) response to the trashing of stock photography. For the past several years there have been some small, behind-the-scenes message boards discussing what might be done for RM photography in the face of the slime that is eating the industry. Ideas are good, actions have been few.
We who have not given in to the ever-increasing insanity over the past ten years are all guilty of waiting much too long to mount serious responses. In going with the flow, almost all of the photographic trade associations are guilty of outwardly or tacitly endorsing the negative developments--just like the photographers who, out of short-term greed, ignorance, or desperation are taking part in the race to the bottom.
Some few of us have been able to survive by cutting expenses and toughening our collections to what cannot be readily obtained elsewhere (this is the basis of the frequently-seen advice to "specialize"). But ours will be a dreary world until we either decide to compete aggressively and well or follow the multitudes of our former business compatriots to the business grave. Joining the downhill slide is not competing. I, too, sample the idiot talk on a few of the bigger micro boards from time to time, but you can learn everything you need to know about the people there in 15 minutes of "eavesdropping."
Carl may/BPS
Peter Bennett <pb@ambientimages.com> wrote:
....
As for banding together, I would say there are different levels. As
technology offers more solutions (as well as headaches) there may be more
opportunities to work together for mutual benefit than previously. That's
what I want to keep my eye our for
....
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