[STOCKPHOTO] Re: Advice sought on a "historic" photo archive
Leif Skoogfors
Mike Shipman wrote:
>I believe this is not a question of economy (the returns expected from this
>or any such archive), but a question of preserving history. I still stand
by
>my statement that we as photographers are recorders of history. We don't
>just make money at it. The monetary value is temporary, the historical
value
>lasts much, much longer. If this archive is worthless then all our archives
>are worthless.
I quite agree with him, and we should recognize the value of our work for
the future. However, with my one experience with a College that wanted my
work for research purposes, they were quite candid about the economics. My
collection was of value to them, but in the academic world, they found it
easier to raise money for 'bricks and mortar". New buildings, not archiving
historical work.
As an aside, a unknown portrait photographer in Arkansas, left a collection
of glass plate negatives which was bought for pennies at an auction. The
buyer turned it into his own gold mine and prints have been remade,
exhibited and sold. http://www.disfarmer.com/gallery/
Later, enterprising entrepreneurs went to the locale and locating the owners
of vintage prints, spending over $1 million dollars buying the original
work. The somewhat odd local portrait photographer has been recognized after
death as a true artist and his work as a New York art market.
Maybe one of us will be next?
Leif Skoogfors
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mzsupa5
Well said Mike, In this case I hope something can be salvaged. I am
not optimistic that material of this type can survive on self
generated income alone and at least in the early days some sort of
funding or voluntary work will be needed to get things going. A
swift Lottery funding bid will be needed before all the cash gets
hoovered up to pay for the 2012 0lympics!! In a way I think material
like this may fare better in private hands than with commercial or
government organisations. The decision to call the skip often rests
with a uninterested clerk who would prefer to tell a researcher that
X no longer exists than dig through the dust to get it.
Tony Collins
--- In STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Shipman/Blue Planet
Photography" <man@...> wrote:
>
>
> I believe this is not a question of economy (the returns expected
from this
> or any such archive), but a question of preserving history. I
still stand by
> my statement that we as photographers are recorders of history. We
don't
> just make money at it. The monetary value is temporary, the
historical value
> lasts much, much longer. If this archive is worthless then all our
archives
> are worthless.
>
> Mike Shipman
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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Ian Murray
> I believe this is not a question of economy (the returns expected
from this
> or any such archive), but a question of preserving history. I still
stand by
> my statement that we as photographers are recorders of history. We
don't
> just make money at it. The monetary value is temporary, the
historical value
> lasts much, much longer. If this archive is worthless then all our
archives
> are worthless.
>
> Mike Shipman
Dear Mike,
Thank goodness somebody is thinking beyond the cash register. This
archive is a huge historical resource. It is an absolute disgrace if
such material is being thrown away. In the UK national lottery money
should be made available to preserve our heritage for the future. The
large publishers that have taken over most local independent newspapers
should be held responsible for the role they have assumed rather than
be allowed to asset strip.
There should be a law against this happening.
Thanks Mike for bringing some perspective to this discussion.
Ian Murray
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Mike Shipman/Blue Planet Photography
The good thing is that these negatives exist and can be "bargained" or
"fought" for and preserved. The travesty occurring every day is that
historically relevant images are being deleted from compact flash and other
memory cards and hard drives and there is no going back when that happens.
I'm not saying every single digital image should be saved, all the
non-identifiable subject images can be deleted. Save the under and over
exposed images, however, the technology to save those image files is being
improved every day. Not all images on negative and transparency film will be
perfect, either (though transparencies are much easier to edit out
individual images, same as digital).
Mike Shipman
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Ian Murray
This may or may not be the list of publications produced by the
company in question. It is a list of one of the largest regional
newspaper publishers. Imagine if the 'landfill solution' was adopted
company-wide? Of course, I have no idea if this is the same company
that we are discussing.
My former local paper is in this list and my goodness how it has
deteriorated in recent years. The editors of the Bath Evening
Chronicle seem to lack local knowledge beyond the latest wine bars,
gastro pubs, and comings and goings of minor celebs. In one memorable
article they referred to local historical figure Beau Nash as 'Bone
Ash'!
Aberdeen Citizen
Aberdeen Evening Express
Aberdeen Press and Journal
Advertiser Series (Hull)
Ashby and Coalville Mail
Axholme Herald
Bath Chronicle
Bath Times
Brentwood Gazette Series
Bridgwater Times
Bristol Evening Post
Bristol Observer Series
Burnham and Highbridge Times
Cannock & Rugeley Mercury
Carmarthen Herald
Carmarthen Journal
Cheadle Post and Times
Cheltenham News
Clevedon Mercury
Cornish Guardian
Derby Evening Telegraph
Derby Express Group
East Grinstead Courier
East Lindsey Target
Essex Chronicle
Exeter Express and Echo
Exeter Times
Forest of Dean: The Forester
Gainsborough Target
Gloucester News
Gloucestershire Echo
Great Barr Observer
Grimsby Target
Grimsby Telegraph
Hereford Admag
Hull Daily Mail
Kent and Sussex Courier
Leek Post and Times
Leicester Mail Group
Leicester Mercury
Lichfield Mercury Series
Lincoln Target
Lincolnshire Echo
Llanelli Star Series
Loughborough Mail
Mansfield and Ashfield Recorder
Mendip Messenger
Mid Devon Gazette Series
Mid Somerset Series
Moorlands Advertiser
Neath & Port Talbot Courier
News In Focus
North Devon Journal
North Staffs Advertiser
Nottingham Evening Post
Nottingham Recorder
Plymouth Extra
Retford Times
Scunthorpe Target
Scunthorpe Telegraph
Sentinel Sunday
Sevenoaks Chronicle
Shrewsbury Admag
Somerset Guardian Standard
South Cheshire Advertiser Series
South Lincs Target Group
South Wales Evening Post
Stoke The Sentinel
Sutton Coldfield Observer
Swansea Herald Of Wales
Tamworth Herald Series
Tamworth Leader
Taunton Times
The Citizen
The Cornishman
The Herald (Plymouth)
Torbay Weekender Series
Torquay Herald Express
Uttoxeter Post and Times
Walsall Advertiser
Wellington Weekly News
West Briton
West Wiltshire Advertiser
Western Daily Press (Bristol)
Western Gazette
Western Morning News
Weston and Worle News
Wolds Target
Yeovil Times
Ian Murray
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Peter Dean
In message <en81qc+5ris@eGroups.com>, Ian Murray
<idmurray@totalise.co.uk> writes
>
> It is an absolute disgrace if
>such material is being thrown away.
Ian
It happens all the time from what people have told me. It takes a lot of
people to shoot and assemble collections but only one tidy mind working
in an untidy office to book the skip. This happens when archives are not
organised properly. When the mag or newspaper moves office its time to
start afresh.
> In the UK national lottery money
>should be made available to preserve our heritage for the future.
When we exhibited at the BAPLA Picture Fair a few years ago a bloke
started a conversation with us and was asking about the business. He was
looking for tips how to build an archive (while we were trying to talk
with buyers). He had been awarded over 250K to build an archive of (i
think) Mid Wales ( the Celts not the mammals) Don't know if it was
lottery money but could have been. It makes you wonder what is so
special about mid Wales :-) He could buy cameras and pay photographers
to shoot. He was not allowed to spend it on unrelated photography.
If you know nothing about the business and don't have a clue about
anything to do with photography or building an archive you may be
successful if you apply :-) Those of us who have a fighting chance of
actually achieving it would likely be turned down. However if you don't
ask you don't get do you?
If the owner of the Welsh archive is reading perhaps he can let us know
how he got on or correct any of my post. But maybe he moved office after
ordering the skip?
Happy New Year to all !
Pete
--
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agripicture.com
+44(0)1398 331598
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Bob Croxford
On 31 Dec 2006, at 15:19, STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> This may or may not be the list of publications produced by the
> company in question. It is a list of one of the largest regional
> newspaper publishers. Imagine if the 'landfill solution' was adopted
> company-wide? Of course, I have no idea if this is the same company
> that we are discussing.
Dear Ian
Dear Ian
One of the newspapers in your list is a case in point. All copies of
the actual newspaper are available in microfiche form for researchers
at a local library. This means that the photographs can be seen in
the original context and story. A well funded archive turned down a
huge quantity of prints and negatives from that newspaper because
pictures of the 1954 winner of the flower arranging prize at every
village in the newspapers coverage area had only ever been of
interest to one person; the winner.
Of far greater importance is the condition, treatment and access to
what are truly important photographs. As an example J C Burrow was a
pre-eminent photographer of mines in 1890s Cornwall. I have seen a
portfolio of his prints made by himself and can tell you that the
quality is mind-blowingly amazing. On a scale of one to ten I would
rate Burrow's prints at ten and Ansell Adams around seven or eight.
This guy used 10x8 glass plates and captured huge underground
galleries using magnesium flash powder. When he died many of his
negatives were washed off and used as greenhouse glass. A few, I
think its 96, are kept by the Royal Cornwall Museum. They contract a
local portrait photographer to do contact prints which are an
absolute disgrace because they are so flat. They refuse point blank
to allow anyone who has the slightest idea of how to make a decent
print access to them. I met someone who was doing a project on
Cornish mining and was in despair at not finding good quality prints
of Burrow's work. The Royal Cornish Museum have many other fine and
historic images which they treat in the same way. Unfortunately they
are not alone and the same story can be found all over the country.
Bob Croxford
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wareham2006
Just so you dont think taht it is all bad news. I was speaking a
very distant cousin of mine last week who worked for his local
newspaper in the UK. He told me a lot of his work in the past months
has been scanning old images from the archives. They have realised
that the Heritage/local history pages are some of the most popular
and were making a digital archive.
regards,
Richard Wareham
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Mike Shipman/Blue Planet Photography
I'm not saying to ignore the commercial value of archives, as their is money
involved in preserving, storing, accessing, and utilizing the archive. As
Leif has pointed out, there can be high commercial value in a photo archive
(and there are many examples of such). It just shouldn't be the driving
force behind whether to keep an archive or throw it out. I think figuring
out how to generate a return from a photo archive is part of the process.
Why shouldn't a photographer, an institution, heirs, etc. reap the benefits
from someone's hard work? In probably all cases, generating a return is
necessary to offset the costs of maintenance. Patience and persistence in
finding a home for a photo archive is what is needed, as well as the correct
guidance how best to set on up.
In my last correspondence with Al Weber, he mentioned he will be in Twin
Falls, Idaho, at Southern Idaho College, in March for a free workshop which
will include a session on archiving. I am collecting the information and
will post it here in case anyone is interested in attending.
Mike Shipman
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Mike Shipman/Blue Planet Photography
Education of the institutions holding photographic archives is also key. A
person just can't give up their archive to any old place. Sometimes that
can't be helped, as it sounds in the case of the Burrow plates. At some
point, perhaps the RCM will have a new person in that position that will
have a more open ear and allow the reprints to be done properly. At least
they are being held somewhere reasonably safe rather than in a shoebox in
someone's garage.
When I first Met Al Weber, I had thought that photo archives existed nearly
everywhere. I worked at the Denver Museum of Natural History (in the Zoology
Dept) and that museum has a very large photo archive that they maintain
themselves (and acquire photo archives that follow the museum's mission
statement and are reviewed for content - at least they did when I was there.
Since then the museum's name and focus has changed). I also thought, rather
naively, that well known photographers have plans in place for archiving
their collections in their estate. After hearing Al's presentation, I was
very surprised to find out I was totally wrong. The photographers themselves
apparently did not see the value of their work beyond the internal meaning
to themselves. I've seen that thinking posted here in recent days. I find it
very interesting (not disparaging anyone, I think it might be some kind of
inherent thought process) that for all the open-mindedness and
subject/environmental awareness photographers have, they aren't able to see
past a myopic view of the usefulness/utility of their work. We are judging
the value of our own work (and being very limited in that scope) when in
truth, especially as stock photographers, we have little or no control over
how our work is perceived by others. Mundane subjects, or what we might
consider mundane (photos of my neighborhood, for example - home
construction, neighbors interacting, children playing and growing up, etc. )
documented at a certain time and/or over a period of time, may seem
irrelevant to us as individuals. We may not have spent much effort in
creating those images, or had a specific project or purpose in mind. But, 20
years or 50 years from now those photos will be significant in showing what
life was like today.
When I go into antique and junk stores and look through all the old photos
in boxes and bins that came from estate sales and garage sales I wonder who
these people are, what was their life like, who is left of their family, and
why are the pictures here and not with someone who cares? Unfortunately,
many of the photos are without any documentation as to who or when or why.
Many will end up as craft projects or with luck framed and re-hung for
viewing. Most, though, I think, are tossed out after a while. I'm digressing
a bit here, but Bob did mention a good point that the "condition, treatment
and access" are important components of photo archives, although I would
disagree somewhat with the "to what are truly important photographs"
portion. Not all photo archives are able to be saved, that's the way it is.
Prioritization needs to be done as to the importance or relevance of an
archive to history. I think all photo records are worth something, but agree
that some work which best expresses a certain period of time, has
exceptional quality, coverage, and meaning, are going to be saved first. My
disagreement, a small one, is with the determination of which photos are
more important than others. It's partly a subjective undertaking based upon
the biases of history and the biases of the person or persons conducting the
evaluation. We judge the relevance of photographs based upon current
historical conditions and its relationship to the past. We can't project
importance into the future. Which is why we must try to save as much as we
can for those future folks to make that connection.
Mike Shipman
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Ian Murray
>
> Dear Ian
>
> One of the newspapers in your list is a case in point. All copies of
> the actual newspaper are available in microfiche form for
researchers
> at a local library. This means that the photographs can be seen in
> the original context and story.
Dear Bob,
Agreed that the newspaper will have a selected photo from a shoot but
not all the others of, for example, the politician's visit to the local
high school in 1969 that weren't selected. Did Leif Skoogfors realise
that his picture of Kerry sitting behind Jane Fonda at a Peace rally
would have such later importance or the famous photo of Bill Clinton as
a schoolboy shaking hands with President Kennedy? I don't claim to know
much about printing but rather assumed that a scan from a newspaper
would inevitably be low quality.
A further point for consideration is the viewpoint and attitude that
these large publishers of regional newspapers display towards
photography today if they are so willing to chuck out what staffers
produced in the past. Is this part of the explanation for low rates,
job cuts, and the idea that relying on images contributed from mobile
phones or snaps taken by journalists is 'good enough'. Treating past
photography in such a reckless way as though it is a valueless
commodity undermines all photography.
These days I don't think these huge publishers have any care or real
connection with the communities whose newspapers they have bought and
who they claim to serve.
Regards,
Ian Murray
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Chuck Goodenough
Hi gang,
Happy New Year!
Question:
RF images.
Would an RF license allow a business to use the image on a postcard
or T-shirt and sell it in perpetuity?
Specifically, looking through Cafepress forums I see people looking
for clip art and RF and then putting images on items for sale in
their shops.
Chuck
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Stockphoto Seller
Just goes to the dementia of the RF mindset. Use of RF images in such things as books, magazines, educational CD's, etc., is use in an item for resale, isn't it? That's a rhetorical question of course, the answer being obvious to anyone but a neophyte with no knowledge of the business and total dolts.
Carl May/BPS
Jim Hunter <jim@jimhunter.com> wrote:
I have looked at a number of these licenses from various vendors. The
interesting thing is that with most of these Licenses, the list of
Prohibited Uses is longer than the list of Permitted Uses. So far, all
of the RF licenses that I have looked at absolutely prohibit the use of
an image in any applications intended for resale, whether on-line or
not, including, without limitation, website templates, Flash templates,
business card templates, electronic greeting card templates, and
brochure design templates, postcards, mugs, t-shirts, posters, (printed
on paper, canvas or any other media) or other items for resale, license
or other distribution for profit. All of this is but a tiny fraction of
Prohibited Uses from one such license.
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daveinkelso
--- In STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com, Chuck Goodenough <chuck@...> wrote:
>
> Hi gang,
> Happy New Year!
>
> Question:
> RF images.
> Would an RF license allow a business to use the image on a postcard
> or T-shirt and sell it in perpetuity?
>
> Specifically, looking through Cafepress forums I see people looking
> for clip art and RF and then putting images on items for sale in
> their shops.
>
Most RF licences specifically forbid the use to create another product
- i.e. mugs, T-shirts, mousemats etc. Alamy does. The RF image may not
be used to create a product in which it is the main content. This also
rules out postcards, posters, jigsaws etc.
Most people don't bother to read RF licences carefully.
David
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Sean Locke
--- In STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com, Chuck Goodenough <chuck@...> wrote:
>
> Hi gang,
> Happy New Year!
>
> Question:
> RF images.
> Would an RF license allow a business to use the image on a postcard
> or T-shirt and sell it in perpetuity?
>
> Specifically, looking through Cafepress forums I see people looking
> for clip art and RF and then putting images on items for sale in
> their shops.
>
> Chuck
>
>
Most microstocks prohibit items for resale, without buying an extended
license. There was a recent thread on istock about a pet supply chain
using a vector on a dog shirt without buying a license.
Shutterpoint is the one exception I know - their license is pretty
open, which may explain the occasional sale there.
Sean L.
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Steve
Okay, I'm confused. If RF is not legal in items for resale, then
are
the only valid uses editorial and advertising? The water seems
muddy
here. Sometimes advertisements with photos are included with a
product. Is that a valid RF use? What about photos on product
packing? Is that considered advertising use or does that fall into
another category since that photo is now part of a product?
It sounds as if each licenser of RF images makes up their own rules
about what uses are valid. I used to think there was a clear
distinction between RF and RM with RF meaning "anything goes" and RM
meaning "licensed for a specific use". Bottom line, if there ever
was a standardized definition for these terms, it appears that it
has gone away.
Steve Waitkevich
--- In STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com, Stockphoto Seller
<bpslistmail@...>
wrote:
>
> Just goes to the dementia of the RF mindset. Use of RF images in
such things as books, magazines, educational CD's, etc., is use in
an
item for resale, isn't it? That's a rhetorical question of course,
the
answer being obvious to anyone but a neophyte with no knowledge of
the
business and total dolts.
>
> Carl May/BPS
>
>
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Sean Locke
--- In STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <yahoo@...> wrote:
>
> Okay, I'm confused. If RF is not legal in items for resale, then
> are
> the only valid uses editorial and advertising?
Yes, at least at iStock. You aren't allowed to directly make money
from reselling the image, in the form of a calendar, tshirt, template,
etc, without buying an extended license.
Packaging, book covers, etc, don't count, as you are buying the
product for the product, not the image. That's pretty standard across
the micros, not including Shutterpoint.
Getty doesn't specify items for resale, but does mention as prohibited:
(iii) include the Licensed Material in an electronic template intended
to be Reproduced by third parties on electronic or printed products;
or (iv) use or display the Licensed Material on websites or in any
other medium designed to induce or involving the sale, license or
other distribution of "on demand" products, including, without
limitation, postcards, mugs, t-shirts, calendars, posters and other items.
Sean L.
<The water seems
> muddy
> here. Sometimes advertisements with photos are included with a
> product. Is that a valid RF use? What about photos on product
> packing? Is that considered advertising use or does that fall into
> another category since that photo is now part of a product?
>
> It sounds as if each licenser of RF images makes up their own rules
> about what uses are valid. I used to think there was a clear
> distinction between RF and RM with RF meaning "anything goes" and RM
> meaning "licensed for a specific use". Bottom line, if there ever
> was a standardized definition for these terms, it appears that it
> has gone away.
>
> Steve Waitkevich
>
> --- In STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com, Stockphoto Seller
> <bpslistmail@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Just goes to the dementia of the RF mindset. Use of RF images in
> such things as books, magazines, educational CD's, etc., is use in
> an
> item for resale, isn't it? That's a rhetorical question of course,
> the
> answer being obvious to anyone but a neophyte with no knowledge of
> the
> business and total dolts.
> >
> > Carl May/BPS
> >
> >
>
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daveinkelso
--- In STOCKPHOTO@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <yahoo@...> wrote:
>
> Okay, I'm confused. If RF is not legal in items for resale, then
> are
> the only valid uses editorial and advertising? The water seems
> muddy
> here. Sometimes advertisements with photos are included with a
> product. Is that a valid RF use? What about photos on product
> packing? Is that considered advertising use or does that fall into
> another category since that photo is now part of a product?
>
> It sounds as if each licenser of RF images makes up their own rules
> about what uses are valid. I used to think there was a clear
> distinction between RF and RM with RF meaning "anything goes" and RM
> meaning "licensed for a specific use". Bottom line, if there ever
> was a standardized definition for these terms, it appears that it
> has gone away.
The general rule is that the product must not be dependent on the
photograph or consist of the photography. T-shirt, mug, poster,
postcard, calender, mousemat etc are all deemed to be reselling the
image (the product is merely a vehicle - the reason you buy it is for
the image). Similarly, a remarketed web template based on a photo
image is reselling the photo, not the template. Same would go for
getting loads of RF pictures and then putting them on a CD and selling
that.
A book may contain photos, a magazine may contain photos, a DVD may
use photos to illustrate a chapter, a film may have still photos, an
advert may be based entirely on a photo - but it is not there BECAUSE
of the photo. The most difficult area is in book covers. Some RF
vendors believe putting RF on a book cover is no different to selling
a poster or a calendar, which they don't allow. Others see it as no
different from including a photo inside a book.
There is no standard definition but these rules have been in place
since the first days on clip art going back to Thomas Bewick in the
1820s, and probably before that, though Bewick was the first
commercial RF image supplier. The concept that RF is new is complete
tosh, and I was using RF clip art and 'clip photography' from the day
I joined a newspaper in 1970. We were free to go into the library and
pull out any example from 10, 20, 50 years back if it had originally
been supplied by any of the major RF illustration services.
The general rules about not creating a product from RF art/photography
applied then as now, and if any confusion has arisen, it's probably
from new microstock agencies failing to understand the importance of
following industry standard terms and conditions.
David
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