Next steps for fizzPOP

[Tom Hodson]

I've been talking to people about how fizzPOP can move forward, here's a proposal:

1. fizzPOP decides on and subsequently applies for, some kind of legal status.
2. We come up with a small, achievable community project, one that we can use to apply for a small amount of funding. Be it a small event, teaching kids to program RaspI Pi's or anything a sufficient number of people can get behind.
3. This attracts attention and members, and from it we gain experience as a group and a track record for using funds successfully, this will eventually put us in the position to be able to apply for larger grants.
4. We use larger grants to put reliable long term revenue streams in place, getting a space, populating it with desirable facilities, hosting workshops and events, all things that will help to support fizzPOP financially.

Thoughts?

[Sean Quinn]

I think all of the above are what we should be striving towards. I think it would be beneficial if we perhaps schedule a meeting specifically to discuss this in detail? looking at the pro's/cons of the differing organisation types, work/workshops we can develop going forward, new member attraction/retention and then what funding options best suit us once goals/milestones have been set.

One suggestion I would make would be to consider registering as a CIO. This is brand new organisation type that marries the benefits of being a company with that of charity status, but without a number of the pitfalls of both. There's some further reading here http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/FAQS/Registering_a_charity/FAQs_about_CIOs/default.aspx#1

[yt...@discreetsecuritysolutions.com]

Ok, I've just spent an hour or more reading the Charity Commission website, and several other sites, regarding this.

London Hackspace got turned down for charitable status, but, having just read loads, I can't see on what grounds a hackspace could be turned down if, for example, the National Trust can be a charity. The Hackspace has the aims:
1) the advancement of education;
2) the advancement of the arts, culture, heritage or science;
3) other purposes currently recognised as charitable and any new charitable purposes which are similar to another charitable purpose.

[3) is by analogy to other groups - a theatre or self-help group likewise charges for admission to (some/all) events, but exists for the betterment of society via the betterment of the membership. Ditto a hackspace. A charity doesn't just mean you go out handing out free food and/or chugging.]

I see no reason FizzPop couldn't get a CIO status, and on those 3 grounds. This would then lead to a huge reduction in the cost of renting somewhere of our own, as charity shops get a big reduction in rates, I think it is 90% reduction, and so it might be possible to get our own work space. And that is, after all, the first rule of Hackspaces.

If there were a set of aims and a tweaked model constitution, I think it would float. It would also protect everyone against monetary damages or claims should the money run out.
N

[Ranulf Doswell]

I haven't read much of that website, but they key point in my mind is that it's for small charities to make it easier to set up a system equivalent to a plc so that they are personally protected if they charity fails financially.

However, I don't agree that a hackerspace qualifies as a charity because it primarily serves the interests of its own members. It's just a club in its current form or organisation when it becomes a legal entity.

Conversely, something like the BCA probably could be a charity as anybody can take a course and they support local people with no affiliation to themselves, e.g. fizzpop, at rates that are (I suspect) much lower than a company would expect to pay.

I know there are a lot of people that argue that churches shouldn't be charities as a large chunk of their income is spent in a way that benefits its own members. There is typically a lot of effort put in to ensure that gift aided money is only ever used for external giving rather than for church spending, for example as a way to demonstrate this.

I agree that fizzpop does good things to engage others, but I suspect it still wouldn't be seen as a charity unless things like going into schools to promote hacking or similar things became its main focus. Even things like maker faire or Godiva festival would probably be seen as just recruitment of new members.

Ralf

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[Tom]

"Reliance on grants is something to be very wary of."

Completely agree, but as long as we remain weary I think they could be a great way to create more stable sources of funding, a space and the equipment therein is one way to attract and retain members.

"I don't agree that a hackerspace qualifies as a charity because it primarily serves the interests of its own members."

Doesn't this depend on what the barrier to membership is? If we decided on a pay-what-you-can model of membership then those who could pay more would be subsidising those who pay less, which seems like it might make us a charity. 

Whether this the type of model we want is the real question.

 

I don't think there's anything in being a hackerspace that precludes us from being a charity, it really depends on what our mission is.

When shall we meet to start writing our mission statement?

On Saturday, April 20, 2013 9:54:33 PM UTC+1, r.e.a...@googlemail.com wrote:

I would agree that deciding on and setting up a legal entity for fizzPOP is a top priority, this will inevitably involve having a face to face meeting with members.
I am not sure charitable status is the way forward. As Ralf has pointed out, fizzPOP is fundamentally not a charity, its purpose is to provide a communal space and resources such as tools for making things to its members who may not normally have access to such things, it also creates an opportunity for its members to interact socially with like minded people.
Reliance on grants is something to be very wary of. Grants are not a revenue stream, a revenue stream would be membership fees. The day-to-day expenses such as renting a space should be funded by the members, grants and donations of money should fund equipment and projects. I've seen groups get awarded grants, proceed to do lots of great things for a year or so then fold when the money runs out. The other problem with charities (and grants) is that the fundraising process can become an end in itself and subvert the main functions of the organisation.
Two legal entities used by many clubs, social enterprises, community groups and associations that might be worth investigating are the Industrial and Provident Society and Community Interest Company, they both give more freedom than charities.

We really need to come up with a mission statement.

Rob A

[yt...@discreetsecuritysolutions.com]

I don't see how a Hackspace wouldn't be charitable. I know London failed to get it, I just don't understand how!

If the way it is funded is "Pay what you can" that explicitly covers the requirement for a charity to help those with very low incomes/the poor. And that would be every day, rather than, say, the National Trust, who run a couple of free weekends a year, and is otherwise run to look after a big house forever, by getting members to pay a fixed sum every year, or to pay when they turn up. So, IMO, a Hackspace has better claim to the charitable status than the National Trust.

Although a workshop isn't specifically mentioned in the same way as a sports field I would also say that it is analogous. And it is certainly bettering education of the public!

Plus, there are loads of "charities" out there that simply exist to look after a place or thing - all the works of art that hang on walls with 3 days a year viewing, to avoid tax, for example. And we are far better than that.

If we set up as a charity with limited liability, we will be far more likely to get a 'space of our own, and more importantly, to afford to run it.

N

[Adrian Godwin]

London Hackspace didn't exactly fail to get charitable status. There were suggestions as to how it could be done, but the application wasn't pursued.

http://hackspace.org.uk/view/Charitable_status

Of course, that doesn't mean it's not right for you.

[Greg Fenton]

If you guys want some space on my dedicated server I have made a VM with 100GB free space. Let me know and I will give you login info.

ubuntu 12.10, 100Mb/s up/down, uncapped.

Best regards

Greg

[yt...@discreetsecuritysolutions.com]

That's quite interesting, whoever I was talking to must have got it wrong then.

I don't follow the argument that they make on that page. London Hackspace was pretty much turn up and do stuff. Membership wasn't really required for anything. Obviously now they are tightening it up a bit, due to growing pains and lack of space (though they've just moved to much larger space, which I've not seen yet, but might on Wednesday) and, at last IMO, the absolute risk that some numpty will cut off their arm means they are putting access control on some of the machines, limited by the RFID membership card. So, being a charity is no step at all from where they are, since there is already an Articles of Association that is almost exactly what the Charity Commission require for a Charitable Company.

The only "gotcha" could be the 'access to all' thing, but, as with most charities, that is easily dealt with by holding at least a couple of (free) open days per year. We would probably be holding all activities open to the public anyway, so I don't see it as an issue - all current activities are.

Restricting access to dangerous tools via membership cards that hold the status of someone's training for Health & Safety reasons would trump anything under the Charities Act anyway, so I don't see that as an issue, plus, anyone can join, it isn't just for a select group of people.
N

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[Dominic Nottinghack]

Hi N

Why do you want FizzPop to be a charity? One answer might be because right now what you have is few members and little money and charity status feels like a fast ticket to money generation through business rates cut and possible gift aid matching. 

Unrestricted access to the workshop isn't just about the health and safety, it's about ownership. If I as a member of Fizzpop pay say £30 a month to have access to tools we've purchased together through say a pledge drive and we all maintain it why should that just be opened up to anyone who wishes to come through the door at any given time? 

Would the workshop be supervised or unsupervised? Personally I don't think anyone involved with FizzPop has the time to run a charity. They don't really currently have the time to run FizzPop. One of the key way for a Hackspace to really grow (imnsho) is to allow members true, unrestricted, unsupervised, 24 hour membership. Obviously to do that you need a space though. 

I'd recommend setting up as a company limited by guarentee. You can put that you are not for profit and a community interest group in your articles. That way you can get this quite unimportant part (incorporation) done quickly and spend more time on the really important stuff, finding people who are happy to pay something per month to get premises. 

I'd think Leeds Hackspace's recent problems would be a good place to start to find out what to do. They had big debts and got booted out of their space.

I hope you'll forgive me be frank. 

Dominic

[Tom Hodson]

Hey Dominic,

Please, don't apologise for being frank, it's very useful.

"why should that just be opened up to anyone who wishes to come through the door at any given time?"

- I think that depends on what people want, personally I like the idea of keeping it completely open.
We appreciate that a pay-what-you-can  charitable model would have lots of problems but I think it's an interesting idea that deserves exploration.

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[Nick]

The beneficiaries of a charity can be strictly defined. Having charitable status does not mean that you just have to give everything away to anyone. A stage before being a charity can be a company limited by guarentee. Many charities also have them as revenue generators.
You could have a charity that is to provide and maintain a hack space. Then have a company that operates the training and services of the hack space, which could be a npi or that operates to generate funds for the charity.
The whole thing is legally very complicated. Needing a specialist lawyer who knows about npi(no profit institution)s.
Nick
Nick

On Apr 23, 2013 7:58 AM, "Dominic Nottinghack" <notti...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[r.e.a...@googlemail.com]

From the Wikipedia entry for Hackerspace:

"A hackerspace (also referred to as a hacklab, makerspace, or hackspace) is a community-operated physical space where people with common interests, often in computers, technology, science, digital art or electronic art, can meet, socialise and/or collaborate."

I think the problem that I have is that the above definition of a Hackerspace is not, to me, compatible with how most charities operate. A charity is a top-down hierarchical organisation, a group of people raise money and then use that money to help some other group, you have the helpers and the helped. Whereas Hackerspaces seem to me to operate in a more collaborative/cooperative way. A group of people with a common interest pool their resources so that they don't individually have to buy tools and rent spaces.

Rob A

[yt...@discreetsecuritysolutions.com]

Dom, any and all input is, at this stage, likely to be helpful.

It is difficult fitting something like a hackspace into the charity structure, I agree with that.

The idea of having a charity own/run the space, then leasing it out probably isn't a good one. The Charity Commission explicitly state that isn't allowed as a charitable purpose unless any and all groups are allowed to book it. That means far less control over anything, as well as an extra layer.

As for the idea of being a charity limited by guarantee, there doesn't seem to be much different from the company limited by guarantee, aside from addding in explicit charitable aims, which, I think, most Hackspaces would have anyway. As pointed out, there's no reason to give anything away as the system is set up so that you can avoid that.

I think the main attraction is the rates relief, but it would also be a good banner to work under. "local charity" sounds better than "local group" or "bunch of hackers", and acts as a bit of a positive spin on everything - if it's a charity it can't be (all) bad.

We probably should have an actual meeting and discuss all this.
N