[Birding-Aus] MORE PICS-Brown Goshawk V Collared sparrowhawk
Belinda Cassidy
Thanks for your help with ID'ing the pair of raptors in our area. Today we
managed to take pictures of them in flight together- not great pics, but
they show the size difference and also look of their wings in flight. IF
anyone has any further comments, they will be much appreciated!
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/CollaredSparrowHawks.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/CollaredSparrowHawk-2.jpg
Cheers,
Belinda
===============================
www.birding-aus.org
birding-aus.blogspot.com
To unsubscribe from this mailing list,
send the message:
unsubscribe
(in the body of the message, with no Subject line)
to: birding-a...@vicnet.net.au
===============================
Peter Shute
for either a pair of Brown Goshawks or a pair of Collared Sparrowhawks,
assuming they're at similar heights. (Or a male of each, or a female of
each).
Tails both look rounded, which would make them Brown Goshawks. They say
to beware of feather wear when deciding whether the tail is rounded or
not. Can we assume that isn't the case if they *both* look rounded, or
should we expect to see similar wear in all Sparrowhawk tails at this
time of year?
Also, these tails don't look like the the earlier one at:
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/raptor_1.jpg
so perhaps there are more than two birds around? I.e. a pair of
goshawks and a sparrowhawk. Was that photo taken recently?
Peter Shute
birding-a...@vicnet.net.au wrote on :
Graham Turner
To read the size difference in the book is one thing, but to see male and
female side by side is another thing completely. The wing shapes are just so
different, but the squared tail is so obvious.
Cheers
Graham Turner
Belinda Cassidy
Yeah, i see what you mean. Yes the photos were taken at different months of
this year.The flight shots are recent, and the perched shots are from April,
during a moult. Sorry for not mentioning it.
I included two other pics of the male in flight for you. The one where he
looks like he has a rounded tail in my other messages are probably a bit
deceptive, as the pair were flying at great speed. The top two pics (below)
are pretty much how his tail looks when he's just gliding about.
The bottom two pics (along with the one you posted) were taken in late
April, prior (or during) a molt. He's the same bird, that part we are sure
of.
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/male-2.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/male-1.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/male-4.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/male-3.jpg
Peter Shute
squared, then I don't know what squared means. Can you explain please?
They look sort of pointy to me.
We are talking about:
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/CollaredSparrow
Hawks.jpg
aren't we?
I guess the different wing shapes could be explained by the fact that
they may have been flapping their wings when the photo was taken, rather
than gliding.
birding-a...@vicnet.net.au wrote on Wednesday, 27 August 2008
2:31 PM:
> These are fantastic photos!
>
> To read the size difference in the book is one thing, but to
> see male and
> female side by side is another thing completely. The wing
> shapes are just so
> different, but the squared tail is so obvious.
>
> Cheers
> Graham Turner
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Belinda Cassidy" <belinda...@gmail.com>
> To: <birdi...@vicnet.net.au>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 11:41 AM
> Subject: [Birding-Aus] MORE PICS-Brown Goshawk V Collared sparrowhawk
>
>
>> Hi,
>> Thanks for your help with ID'ing the pair of raptors in our area.
>> Today we managed to take pictures of them in flight together- not
>> great pics, but they show the size difference and also look of their
>> wings in flight. IF anyone has any further comments, they will be
>> much appreciated!
>>
>>
>>
> http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/CollaredSparr
>> owHawks.jpg
>>
>>
>>
> http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/CollaredSparr
>> owHawk-2.jpg
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Belinda
Peter Shute
But if:
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/male-2.jpg
<http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/male-2.jpg>
and
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/male-1.jpg
<http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/male-1.jpg>
are the same bird, can someone explain why one of the photos shows an
extra bit sticking out in the middle of the tail in one of the photos?
Does this mean that the middle tail feathers had moulted before the
outer ones, making them longer for a while until the outer ones finish
growing?
Peter Shute
-----Original Message-----
From: Belinda Cassidy [mailto:belinda...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 27 August 2008 2:36 PM
To: Peter Shute
Cc: birdi...@vicnet.net.au
Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] MORE PICS-Brown Goshawk V Collared
sparrowhawk
Hi Peter,
Yeah, i see what you mean. Yes the photos were taken at
different months of this year.The flight shots are recent, and the
perched shots are from April, during a moult. Sorry for not mentioning
it.
I included two other pics of the male in flight for you. The
one where he looks like he has a rounded tail in my other messages are
probably a bit deceptive, as the pair were flying at great speed. The
top two pics (below) are pretty much how his tail looks when he's just
gliding about.
The bottom two pics (along with the one you posted) were taken
in late April, prior (or during) a molt. He's the same bird, that part
we are sure of.
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/male-2.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/male-1.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/male-4.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/male-3.jpg
Belinda Cassidy
I am still a bit confused now, but maybe less so that when I started
thinking about this. I can definitely see that the female is a lot like a
Goshawk- even her loud voice- and he has Goshawk-like traits too. But we
know that this same small area of forest (including the pigeon nests in our
yard) to be the territory of a pair of sparrowhawks, and their juvenile,
which we have seen regularly for over 2 years and photographed. The last
sighting of the juvenile was around 2-3 weeks ago, in the photos below.
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/juvenile.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/juvenile2.jpg
Do you think the Goshawks could have moved back into this area within the
last couple of weeks, then, and chased off the sparrowhawks then?
David Stowe
In Sydney Olympic Park a couple of years ago there were a pair of
Sparrowhawks nesting within 50m of a pair of Brown Goshawks. So it
could be very likely that you are seeing a number of birds.
Cheers
Dave Stowe
Greg & Val Clancy
It would appear from the photos I have seen that you have, or have had, both a pair of Collared Sparrowhawks and a pair of Brown Goshawks.
Greg Clancy
----- Original Message -----
From: Belinda Cassidy
To: Greg & Val Clancy
Cc: Peter Shute ; birdi...@vicnet.net.au
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] MORE PICS-Brown Goshawk V Collared sparrowhawk
Thanks so much for all your replies.
I am still a bit confused now, but maybe less so that when I started thinking about this. I can definitely see that the female is a lot like a Goshawk- even her loud voice- and he has Goshawk-like traits too. But we know that this same small area of forest (including the pigeon nests in our yard) to be the territory of a pair of sparrowhawks, and their juvenile, which we have seen regularly for over 2 years and photographed. The last sighting of the juvenile was around 2-3 weeks ago, in the photos below.
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/juvenile.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/juvenile2.jpg
Do you think the Goshawks could have moved back into this area within the last couple of weeks, then, and chased off the sparrowhawks then?
Chris Sanderson
A classic example of why you have to be very careful using the tail as an ID
feature for Sparrowhawk/Goshawk. I'm tempted to forward this to a few
people I've argued about this with, but that would just be petty :)
Peter, the fact is that like wings, raptor tails can be held differently
than expected. For example Black Kites can either have forked or square
tails depending on how splayed the feathers are. The first flight photo
where the tails look "pointed" the tails are held very tightly bunched,
possibly for speed. The second set, where the tail looks "squarer" is
probably because the feathers are being held less tightly bunched. Look at
the relative width of the tail in each photo. Add to that the possible
shapes you get when outer feathers are missing, or where inner feathers are
missing, or any combination of the above, and shape becomes pretty
unreliable. As seen in Belinda's photo of the pair together size is also
pretty fraught. I hate to say it, but the GISS of the bird is probably more
useful in flight. I've stood with a friend of about equal bird ID skill
watching an accipiter in flight, and we argued heatedly about which it was,
without resolving the issue (I still say it was a sparrowhawk!). Our
argument boiled down to me using the GISS, and my friend using the tail. If
I had to boil down what I call the GISS of a sparrowhawk into words, I would
say it is smaller, sleeker, more slender, faster and more acrobatic than a
goshawk. As with migratory waders (think primary projection length), tail
moult can really stuff you up on ID here.
Regards,
Chris
Graham Turner
When I looked at the photo of the pair of birds I thought, 'yeah,
sparrowhawks' whether it was because that's what they were labelled as or
because that's what I reckoned they were I don't know. So I 'saw' a square
tail. Maybe it was the narrow tail that did it, I don't know, but clearly it
is not as square as I originally perceived it to be.
They still look like Sparrowhawks, but don't ask me why I think that now.
Cheers
Graham Turner
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Shute" <psh...@nuw.org.au>
To: "Graham Turner" <ori...@ozemail.com.au>; "Baus"
<birdi...@vicnet.net.au>
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:48 PM
Subject: RE: [Birding-Aus] MORE PICS-Brown Goshawk V Collared sparrowhawk
Help! If the tails in the photo showing the two birds flying are
squared, then I don't know what squared means. Can you explain please?
They look sort of pointy to me.
Greg & Val Clancy
I am getting confused by all of the photos but I am reasonably sure that the
two birds in flight with the round tails are Brown Goshawks, not only
because of the round tails but because of the length of the tails and the
shape of the wings. The photo of the male in flight is a Collared
Sparrowhawk, with shorter broader wings and a shorter tail.
Regards
Greg Clancy
Greg & Val Clancy
While I agree that the tail shape is only a good distinguishing character
for birds that are not moulting the tail - I once saw the largest Collared
Sparrowhawk ever based on its square tail only to realise that it was a
Brown Goshawk with the centre tail feathers missing - I am confident that
the two birds in flight are Goshawks. This is based on the length of the
tail and well as the width and shape of the wings and the GISS(ZZ). I
disagree that Sparrowhawks are sleeker, more slender birds. They in fact
have shorter tails and shorter broader wings than Goshawks. I do agree that
they are generally smaller.
Regards
Greg Clancy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Sanderson" <chris.s...@gmail.com>
To: "Belinda Cassidy" <belinda...@gmail.com>
Cc: <birdi...@vicnet.net.au>
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] MORE PICS-Brown Goshawk V Collared sparrowhawk
Peter Shute
I guess these are parts of the tail where there is no overlap of feathers, making them translucent. Very hard to tell exactly what is tail and what is sky in some spots.
They still don't look square to me, but because of this I don't think you can draw any certain conclusions about the tail shape from this photo. I Think the main value of this photo is in establishing the relative size of the birds.
Peter Shute
--------------------------
Sent using BlackBerry
----- Original Message -----
From: birding-a...@vicnet.net.au <birding-a...@vicnet.net.au>
To: Baus <birdi...@vicnet.net.au>
Sent: Wed Aug 27 15:20:35 2008
Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] MORE PICS-Brown Goshawk V Collared sparrowhawk
When I looked at the photo of the pair of birds I thought, 'yeah,
sparrowhawks' whether it was because that's what they were labelled as or
because that's what I reckoned they were I don't know. So I 'saw' a square
tail. Maybe it was the narrow tail that did it, I don't know, but clearly it
is not as square as I originally perceived it to be.
They still look like Sparrowhawks, but don't ask me why I think that now.
Cheers
Graham Turner
From: "Peter Shute" <psh...@nuw.org.au>
To: "Graham Turner" <ori...@ozemail.com.au>; "Baus"
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:48 PM
Subject: RE: [Birding-Aus] MORE PICS-Brown Goshawk V Collared sparrowhawk
Help! If the tails in the photo showing the two birds flying are
squared, then I don't know what squared means. Can you explain please?
They look sort of pointy to me.
Greg & Val Clancy
flight have typical Goshawk wings the single male bird has typical broad
Sparrowhawk wings. The tail lengths of the two birds are also too long for
Sparrowhawk, therfore in this case the birds do have round tails not just
due to moult. A Sparrowhawk with tail feathers missing would have a forked
tail (if the middle feathers were missing) or a straight tail if some outer
feathers were missing.
Greg Clancy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Belinda Cassidy
This morning I got reasonably close to the larger raptor. These are two
pictures I took which show her feet more clearly. With the closeup pics of
the male, his toes looked longer and finer, but he's also a lot smaller.
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/FEET-1.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/feet-2.jpg
Chris Sanderson
Really good shots of a Brown Goshawk. I've taken the liberty of putting two
shots of yours in this email. The first two show really well the wide-eyed
stare and spindly legs and toes (particularly the freakishly long middle toe
of the Collared Sparrowhawk. As well as Belinda's shot I've also included a
shot of Rohan Clarke's from pbase of a Collared Sparrowhawk that shows the
legs and feet really well. The second shows fairly well the low-browed
"glare" and chunky toes and legs of the Brown Goshawk. Sadly you can't
really see how much longer the Collared Sparrowhawk middle toe is in these
shots, but apart from that cracking great shots.
Collared Sparrowhawk
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/male-4.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/wildlifeimages/image/97096364
Brown Goshawk
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/Serenity-photos/FEET-1.jpg
Regards,
Chris
ps. Greg I agree that there are various shots of Goshawks and Sparrowhawks
floating through these threads. I have been trying to talk in general terms
without trying to get bogged down in which shot is which bird. I must say
I've never used wing breadth or tail length explicitly for ID but will check
it out next time I'm in the field observing one. As for my description of
GISS, it was my poor attempt at putting my personal impression of the
differences in words. It dosen't surprise me that you would use different
words to describe your impression.