Re: food restriction

[Devoto, Stephen]

Michael:
I agree. Animal care in general, and food restriction in particular, are
not just appropriate topics, they are at the core of what I look for
zebrafish listserv. It's is the only one that everybody working on
zebrafish is guaranteed to find relevant!

I do not know any of the animal care literature on whether fish (or other
ectotherms) experience pain and suffering from food restriction. One
positive health effect of food restriction could come from an improvement
in water quality. From my aquaria at home, I can report that over-feeding
is a much greater fish welfare problem than not feeding. Fish at my house
(not covered by an animal care and use protocol!) have gone months without
food; if anything this seemed to make them more robust. On the other hand,
when we had a neighbor stop by to feed the fish and the cat for a week,
most fish died, and the ones that survived her over-feeding were
grotesquely distended.

Stephen
-----------------------
Stephen H. Devoto, Associate Professor
Biology, Neuroscience and Behavior
Wesleyan University, Middletown, CT 06459
office: (860) 685-3461 Lab: (860) 685-3206
http://sdevoto.web.wesleyan.edu







On 5/21/12 1:03 PM, "zbrafish...@oat.bio.indiana.edu"
<zbrafish...@oat.bio.indiana.edu> wrote:

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>Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: RE: Starvation of older zebrafish to increase egg
> production? (Steven Waldron)
> 2. Re: eGFP is detected in red channel confocal (Sahar Tavakoli)
>
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>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 10:27:41 -0700
>From: Steven Waldron <steven...@gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [Zbrafish] RE: Starvation of older zebrafish to increase
> egg production?
>To: "Burdine, Rebecca D." <rbur...@princeton.edu>
>Cc: "bionet-organi...@moderators.isc.org"
> <bionet-organi...@moderators.isc.org>
>Message-ID:
> <CAP2Q5346gUUNzrk6rr263Djz...@mail.gmail.com>
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>
>You might also try separating the males from females for at least a week,
>increase the frequency of water changes, and most importantly... feed a
>diet heavy in Artemia nauplii.
>
>Breeding success can start to become less predictable once a fish reaches
>its first birthday.
>
>I've never tried the starvation trick, never really had reason to...but I
>do wonder if it might mimic some seasonal variation in food supply
>availability and spawning frequency (e.g. dry season vs. monsoon)?
>
>
>
>On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Burdine, Rebecca D.
><rbur...@princeton.edu
>> wrote:
>
>>
>> But we have some strains that just give out at 1 year no matter what we
>> do, and others that still produce reasonably ok at 3. I am happy to
>>share
>> our feeding protocols with you if you like. They are essentially
>>modified
>> protocols that are used at ZIRC.
>>
>> Becky
>> ________________________________________
>> From: zbrafish...@oat.bio.indiana.edu [
>> zbrafish...@oat.bio.indiana.edu] on behalf of David G. White [
>> dgw...@u.washington.edu]
>> Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 8:15 PM
>> To: Michael Lardelli
>> Cc: bionet-organi...@moderators.isc.org
>> Subject: Re: [Zbrafish] RE: Starvation of older zebrafish to increase
>>egg
>> production?
>>
>> If your following proper animal laboratory protocols you would not have
>> the problem in the first place. Your fish may already be under stress
>>and
>> you seek knowledge to possibly exacerbate your situation! Perhaps
>>culling
>> the fish after 12 months is better than 18, either way we do neither
>>here,
>> our fish are reliable breeders up to 2 years.
>>
>> I must admit I was a bit shocked when I saw your subject and I apologize
>> if you took offense to my comments. We are all looking for knowledge
>>but I
>> don't think your subject is proper for this forum.
>>
>> David G White
>> Research Coordinator
>> HSB Zebrafish Labs
>> University of Washington
>> Department of Biological Structure
>> HSB G520 Box 357420
>> 1959 NE Pacific Street
>> Seattle, WA 98195-7420
>> Tel. 206-685-7512
>> FAX 206-543-1524
>>
>> On Thu, 17 May 2012, Michael Lardelli wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > I am not sure which is more inhumane ? starving fish to lengthen their
>> productive life or
>> > culling them after 18 months because they have become unreliable
>> spawners. Culling could
>> > certainly be regarded as a ?short cut?! In any case, I am still
>> interested to hear from anyone
>> > who has knowledge or experience in this area.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Michael
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Michael Lardelli
>> > Zebrafish Genetics Laboratory
>> > School of Molecular and Biomedical Science The University of Adelaide,
>> AUSTRALIA 5005
>> > Ph : +61 8 8303 3212
>> > Fax : +61 8 8303 4362
>> > e-mail: michael....@adelaide.edu.au CRICOS Provider Number 00123M
>> > -----------------------------------------------------------
>> > This email message is intended only for the addressee(s) and contains
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>> please notify the sender
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>> is recommended and is the
>> > responsibility of the recipient.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
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>Message: 2
>Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 19:22:49 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Sahar Tavakoli <sahart...@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [Zbrafish] eGFP is detected in red channel confocal
>To: Wei <iloveque...@gmail.com>,
> "Zbra...@magpie.bio.indiana.edu" <Zbra...@magpie.bio.indiana.edu>
>Message-ID:
> <1337394169.419...@web126006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
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>
>Hi Lucas,
>
>It could be noise, as weak signals and the other FP are?co-localized. Do
>you use the separate filter for each channel. E. g when you are imaging
>for GFP change the?excitation?filter for GFP excitation?wavelength. So,
>any other?wavelengths?except GFP would be omitted. And the same for
>dTomate.
>
>Good luck
>
>Sahar
>
>
>________________________________
> From: Wei <iloveque...@gmail.com>
>To: Zbra...@magpie.bio.indiana.edu
>Sent: Friday, May 18, 2012 11:41 AM
>Subject: [Zbrafish] eGFP is detected in red channel confocal
>
>
>Hello, I would like to know if anyone have similar experiences to share?
>In eGFP and Tdtomato double transgenic zebrafish larvae (12 dpf from two
>different promoters from different genes), eGFP was always detected
>weakly in the red channel but not vice versa. It looks like eGFP
>expressing cells are also expressing Tdtomato weakly. Tried to do ICC by
>double antibody staining but could not find good antibody against
>Tdtomato. Please share with me too if you have good experience with
>Tdtomato antibody (manufacturer or catalog#?).
>
>Thank you so much for your sharing!
>
>Lucas
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[Steven Waldron]

In general, a small freshwater tropical fish with the metabolism and activity of a zebrafish can go around two weeks without food.  I also find these starvation periods will test the strength of the fish well-- the weak usually do not fare so well.

Note:  these are observations collected from my home aquaria!  Even dedicated fish geeks have to go on vacation at times.

[Michael Lardelli]

Thanks for those comments. Having had one student many years ago who made a mess of our system by overfeeding it is easy to agree with Stephen's comment!

If there was a way to manipulate older fish back into reproductive health there would be great cost savings in stock maintenance and the numbers of culled fish. I can think of two cases in particular where it would have been very useful for my lab. One was where the laboratory manager we once had failed to breed some stock lines until they started to become unproductive. It took us months to then renew the stocks and recover embryo production for our research. Also, we once had a transgenic line that only showed a phenotype we were looking for at 18 months of age. I thought the fish had been disposed of when they failed to show the phenotype earlier but the student who made them told me she had kept them going anyway - so it was only "luck" that we saw the phenotype at all. We eventually published a limited paper on the phenotype but since the fish were infertile we lost the line and could not examine it in more detail. If we had been able to knock the line back into reproductive health we would still be working on it. Since my lab focuses on mechanisms involved in aging/neurodegeneration this may be an issue for us again in future.

It concerns me that fish might begin to cannibalise each other if allowed to go too long without food. Also, if there was tuberculosis in a system then obviously stressing the fish would probably lead to an explosion of that disease among the fish. So it would be useful to hear if anyone has any observations to contribute about e.g. feeding regimes where access to food has been kept very limited etc. Or maybe someone has seen a situation where older fish failed to be fed - for whatever reason - and this produced unexpected effects.

Regards,

Michael

Michael Lardelli
Zebrafish Genetics Laboratory
School of Molecular and Biomedical Science The University of Adelaide, AUSTRALIA 5005
Ph : +61 8 8303 3212
Fax : +61 8 8303 4362
e-mail: michael....@adelaide.edu.au CRICOS Provider Number 00123M
-----------------------------------------------------------
This email message is intended only for the addressee(s) and contains information that may be confidential and/or copyright. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender by reply email and immediately delete this email. Use, disclosure or reproduction of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) is strictly prohibited. No representation is made that this email or any attachments are free of viruses. Virus scanning is recommended and is the responsibility of the recipient.

[Burdine, Rebecca D.]

I've been thinking about this a lot recently. Partially because my lab seems to have let breeding slide and I didn't notice so we are about to lose strains which can't be replaced unless we can get the older fish to be productive. But also because we're in a period that happens every so often where nothing in the facility seems interested in producing well. I never know what prompts these ups and down nor have I seen a pattern more general than beginning of summer and late fall. We no longer have our fish go through daylight savings, so I can't blame the light cycle changing any more.

Does anyone give their fish a feeding holiday over the weekend? We don't at the moment, but I wonder if this might help with overfeeding? Babies and juveniles would of course continue to be fed, but adults?

Thoughts?

Becky

---------------------------------------------------
Rebecca D. Burdine, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor
Dept. of Molecular Biology
Princeton University
Washington Road Mof 433
Princeton, NJ 08544 
 
Phone: (609) 258-7515
Fax: (609) 258-6730
Email: rbur...@princeton.edu
Admin Assistant: Anna Schmedel (609) 258-5028

-----Original Message-----
From: zbrafish...@oat.bio.indiana.edu [mailto:zbrafish...@oat.bio.indiana.edu] On Behalf Of Michael Lardelli
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 8:22 PM
To: Devoto, Stephen; zbra...@oat.bio.indiana.edu
Subject: [Zbrafish] RE: food restriction

Thanks for those comments. Having had one student many years ago who made a mess of our system by overfeeding it is easy to agree with Stephen's comment!

If there was a way to manipulate older fish back into reproductive health there would be great cost savings in stock maintenance and the numbers of culled fish. I can think of two cases in particular where it would have been very useful for my lab. One was where the laboratory manager we once had failed to breed some stock lines until they started to become unproductive. It took us months to then renew the stocks and recover embryo production for our research. Also, we once had a transgenic line that only showed a phenotype we were looking for at 18 months of age. I thought the fish had been disposed of when they failed to show the phenotype earlier but the student who made them told me she had kept them going anyway - so it was only "luck" that we saw the phenotype at all. We eventually published a limited paper on the phenotype but since the fish were infertile we lost the line and could not examine it in more detail. If we had been able to knock the line back into reprodu!