Co-Browsing Options in Flash/Flex?

[ssokol]

Greetings BBB fans. I've been working with BBB for the past few weeks
and am extremely impressed with what I've seen. One feature that I
would love to see included is co-browsing: the ability for the
presenter to pass a URL to all the other participants in the
conference. It would appear that this is fairly trivial to do in the
AIR environment but, oddly, rather difficult in the browser.

Here is a pretty good set of discussions on the various ways people
have managed to embed HTML pages in Flex applications:

http://www.deitte.com/archives/2006/08/finally_updated.htm
http://www.deitte.com/archives/2008/07/dont_use_iframe.htm

My Flex-fu is about 16 months out of date. Does anybody have any
experience doing this? Is there a better way using a controlled,
hidden DIV in the frame HTML perhaps?

Most importantly, does this seem like a useful feature to anybody
else? My idea is to let our technical support and training team work
with customers, including taking them through various sections of our
FAQs, support notes, etc. Doing that with the screen sharing app
would work, but takes lots of bandwidth and doesn't leave the customer
with any direct access to the same material.

Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated.

Cheers,

-S

[Jeremy Thomerson]

Just my personal anecdotal experience:

Co-browsing seems extremely hard to do correctly because of cross-site scripting issues.  DimDim had a co-browsing feature, but it works on so few sites that I disabled the feature.  The presenter could push a URL, which would open in an iframe (or similar), and then when he clicked links, it would push those events to the attendees' browsers.  But some sites just wouldn't work because they used JS and you couldn't invoke JS on their domain from the scripts running at your domain (the conference server's domain). 

Maybe this is solved better somewhere else - I just haven't seen it.  So, if all we could do was "as good as DimDim" - I'd say forget it.  If we found a better way - cool.

Jeremy

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[Jeremy Thomerson]

I guess I say all of that to say - if you know of a good example of co-browsing that works across nearly all sites - let us know!

Jeremy

[Richard Alam]

Didn't look into co-browsing closely but I believe DJP has. He'll be
able to provide more info, I hope. I think one problem is when
submitting forms (logins/etc.).
DJP mentioned about setting up a proxy which fetches the remote URL
and rewrites URL then serves them to the participants. Could be very
complicated.

One thing we can look at or learn from is Selenium Remote Control [1].
I know it's being used for testing
but perhaps we can borrow some ideas/techniques from it. I haven't
given it a lot of thought yet but just
read over the docs. So not sure if it's feasible.

[1] http://seleniumhq.org/docs/05_selenium_rc.html#selenium-rc-architecture

Richard

On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeremy Thomerson

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[Steven Sokol]

Proxying all of the content through to the end user client sounds
really (horribly) complex. Rather, I wonder if there is a way to use
the JavaScript/Flex bridge to create either a new browser window or a
floating DIV element that embeds an iFrame (which I generally view as
an evil concept, but in this case...) that then loads the URL relayed
via the RMTP server.

There's a very primitive example of creating a new DIV from
ActionScript using FABridge here:
http://board.flashkit.com/board/showthread.php?referrerid=541021&t=792041

Unless I'm missing something, I would think that would avoid all of
the cross-site issues. It opens up other issue related to user
experience: how do you keep the window (if you use a window) visible
to the user? If you use a DIV layered in front of the Flex client,
how does this impact other features/functions?

Funny that basic browser functionality is something so hard to
implement in an application that runs inside a browser...

Thanks,

-S

--
Steven Sokol
Digium Inc. | Product Manager - Asterisk
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[Jeremy Thomerson]

How do you (from your domain) control the iframe (from a different domain)?  You can't do it with normal JS - but I don't know if there's something in Flex that allows you to.  Do you know?

Jeremy

[Steven Sokol]

From within JavaScript it's easy to set the location of an iFrame:

window.frames[iframeName].location = url;

Presumably you could create a JavaScript function to set the location
value for the frame which could then be called by the ActionScript
code in response to a message from the Red5 server.

Worst case, the presenter could feed a URL to the participants through
some kind of window (i.e. past it in and click "send"). Optimally
there would be a way for the presenter to open an a browser DIV that
generates an event on each navigation which is relayed to all
participants automatically.

On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Jeremy Thomerson

[Jeremy Thomerson]

Sure - you can direct an iframe to a URL.  That's simple.  But so many sites require JS to operate now that you can't click a link within that iframe programmatically from outside the iframe. 

Jeremy

[207me.com]

looks like passing a url in the bbb chat window works... we use
crafty-syntax which allows you to push a canned message thru chat
windows with hyperlinks to the users... then they can click the link
in chat and bring up the default broswer on pc... the hyperlinks
should allow a short description to show in chat window and hide the
path until clicked or cursor selected....

not sure if there is a way to send html <href=> tags directly thru the
chat module... i no the chat window reads html when the conference is
joined...

On Feb 10, 1:13 pm, Jeremy Thomerson <jeremythomer...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> >http://board.flashkit.com/board/showthread.php?referrerid=541021&t=79...

>
> > >> Unless I'm missing something, I would think that would avoid all of
> > >> the cross-site issues.  It opens up other issue related to user
> > >> experience: how do you keep the window (if you use a window) visible
> > >> to the user?  If you use a DIV layered in front of the Flex client,
> > >> how does this impact other features/functions?
>
> > >> Funny that basic browser functionality is something so hard to
> > >> implement in an application that runs inside a browser...
>
> > >> Thanks,
>
> > >> -S
>

> > >> On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Richard Alam <ritza...@gmail.com>

> > >> >>> On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 10:20 AM, ssokol <steven.so...@gmail.com>

> > >> >>>> bigbluebutton-...@googlegroups.com<bigbluebutton-dev%2Bunsubscr­i...@googlegroups.com>

> > .
> > >> >>>> For more options, visit this group at
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>
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> > >> --
> > >> Steven Sokol
> > >> Digium Inc. | Product Manager - Asterisk
> > >> 1568 S. Yorktown Place - Tulsa OK - 74104
> > >> direct: +1 256-428-6101
> > >> mobile: +1 816-806-8844
> > >> fax: +1 816-817-0441
> > >> twitter: ssokol | jabber: sso...@digium.com | skype: ssokol.digium
> > >> Visit us on the web:www.asterisk.org|www.digium.com
>
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> > --
> > Steven Sokol
> > Digium Inc. | Product Manager - Asterisk
> > 1568 S. Yorktown Place - Tulsa OK - 74104
> > direct: +1 256-428-6101
> > mobile: +1 816-806-8844
> > fax: +1 816-817-0441
> > twitter: ssokol | jabber: sso...@digium.com | skype: ssokol.digium
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>
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> ...
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> read more »- Hide quoted text -
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> - Show quoted text -

[Steven Sokol]

I suspect you're right. In cases where the page includes a JavaScript
application, there would be no way to sync operations and state
between the two browsers. Something like GMail, Google Docs or Zimbra
would be rather useless. Fortunately (at least for me) the use case
I'm interested in addressing is the ability to push a particular web
page in front of the user. Here's my defined case:

User calls help desk and asks a question about one of our products.
The tech (or sales engineer if this is a pre-sales call) can send the
customer a link to BBB for a presentation. At some point the tech/SE
wants to show the customer where in our web site a particular bit of
documentation, collateral or other info is located. They click the
(theoretical) web browser button at the top of BBB. A window opens
(actually a DIV with an embedded iFrame). They navigate to a a
section of our web site by either manually keying the URL into the
pseudo-browser, or by selecting from a menu of sites.

The requested URL is retrieved through a proxy on the BBB box (to
alleviate potential cross-domain scripting limitations). Once the
presenter gets to the page they want, they hit the "Sync" button,
which grabs the current URL, strips out the proxy component, and
transmits it to the customer (or customers) on the far end. Their BBB
clients open pseudo-browser windows (DIVs) and load the URL that was
transmitted.

As the presenter follows links in the page, the frame receives events
which are relayed to the client(s). If this doesn't work because of
limitations in the iFrame's JavaScript object/event structure, you
could fall back to requiring the presenter to hit the Sync button
again to push the new URL to the client(s). My hope is that, because
the requests are handled through the proxy (on the presenter's side
only) cross-domain issues can be avoided and the whole thing can work
seamlessly.

All of that said, I'm not sure that all of this works. (Please
forgive me, I've been in marketing and product management the past two
years. Back when I was actually doing "real" work I would have mocked
this up to see how well it worked.)

Thanks,

-S

[Hugo Flambó]

Hope this helps....but not sure

JSONP Primer ... and you can google for IFRAME Transports and IFRAME
form submission

Regards,

Hugo

Like anything else, JSONP sounds a bit mysterious at first, but it is
pretty simple once
you understand it. To introduce the concept, imagine that a SCRIPT tag
is dynamically
created and appended to the HEAD of a page that was originally loaded
from http://
oreilly.com. The interesting twist comes in with the source of the
tag: instead of loading
from the oreilly.com domain, it’s perfectly free to load from any domain, say
http://example.com?id=23. Using JavaScript, the operation so far is simple:
e = document.createElement("SCRIPT");
e.src="http://example.com?id=23";
e.type="text/javascript";
document.getElementsByTagName("HEAD")[0].appendChild(e);
Although the SCRIPT tag normally implies that you are loading an
actual script, you
can actually return any kind of content you’d like, including JSON
objects. There’s
just one problem with that—the objects would just get appended to the
HEAD of the
page and nothing interesting would happen (except that you might wreck the way
your page looks).
For example, you might end up with something like the following blurb, where the
emphasized text is the result of the previous JavaScript snippet that
dynamically
added the SCRIPT tag to the HEAD of the page:
<html>
<head>
<title>My Page</title>
<script type="text/javascript" >
{foo : "bar"}
</script>
</head>
<body>
Some page content.
</body>
</html>
While shoving a JavaScript object literal into the HEAD is of little
use, imagine what
would happen if you could somehow receive back JSON data that was wrapped in a
function call—to be more precise, a function call that is already
defined somewhere
on your page. In effect, you’d be achieving a truly marvelous thing
because you could
now asynchronously request external data whenever you want it and immediately
pass it into a function forpr ocessing. To accomplish this feat, all
that it takes is
having the result of inserting the SCRIPT tag return the JSON data
padded with an
extra function call such as myCallback({foo : "bar"}) instead of just
{foo : "bar"}.
Assuming that myCallback is already defined when the SCRIPT tag
finishes loading,
you’re all set because the function will execute, pass in the data as
a parameter, and
effectively provide you with a callback function. (It’s worth taking a
moment to let
this process sink in if it hasn’t quite clicked yet.)

But there’s still a small problem: how do you get the JSON object to
come wrapped
with that extra padding that triggers a callback? Easy—all the kind
folks at example.com
have to do is provide you with an additional query string parameter
that allows you to
define the name of the function that the result should be wrapped in.
Assuming that
they’ve determined that you should pass in your function via the c
parameter (a new
request that provides c as a query string parameter for you to use),
calling http://
example.com?id=23&c=myCallback would return myCallback({foo : "bar"}).
And that’s
all there is to it.

On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 5:15 AM, Steven Sokol

[DJP]

Hi Everyone,

I've been working, just for testing purpose right now, few hours to
test the Flex-iframe component into BBB. Shame on Adobe, but that's
the only way to show proper HTML. One other way would be to use a
popup window managed from flash client.

Worked well (Except the z-index bug) ! Please check out this video
which show the render. It's not "real" cobrowse, since there's no
proxy, and thus, no way to sync when clicking. Just a sync between url
entered and flex-iframe integration into BBB.

Video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvVEWH-gvLY

I don't know what's the "good" solution to do this, mainly because of
flash constraint. I think when time will come to do this, we will need
to think about a "real" architecture based on the different tool and
experience everyone got.

DJP

> >http://board.flashkit.com/board/showthread.php?referrerid=541021&t=79...

>
> > >> Unless I'm missing something, I would think that would avoid all of
> > >> the cross-site issues.  It opens up other issue related to user
> > >> experience: how do you keep the window (if you use a window) visible
> > >> to the user?  If you use a DIV layered in front of the Flex client,
> > >> how does this impact other features/functions?
>
> > >> Funny that basic browser functionality is something so hard to
> > >> implement in an application that runs inside a browser...
>
> > >> Thanks,
>
> > >> -S
>

> > >> On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Richard Alam <ritza...@gmail.com>

> > >> >>> On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 10:20 AM, ssokol <steven.so...@gmail.com>

> > >> >>>> bigbluebutton-...@googlegroups.com<bigbluebutton-dev%2Bunsubscr i...@googlegroups.com>

> > .
> > >> >>>> For more options, visit this group at
> > >> >>>>http://groups.google.com/group/bigbluebutton-dev?hl=en.
>
> > >> >> --
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>
> > >> > --
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> > >> --
> > >> Steven Sokol
> > >> Digium Inc. | Product Manager - Asterisk
> > >> 1568 S. Yorktown Place - Tulsa OK - 74104
> > >> direct: +1 256-428-6101
> > >> mobile: +1 816-806-8844
> > >> fax: +1 816-817-0441
> > >> twitter: ssokol | jabber: sso...@digium.com | skype: ssokol.digium
> > >> Visit us on the web:www.asterisk.org|www.digium.com
>
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> > --
> > Steven Sokol
> > Digium Inc. | Product Manager - Asterisk
> > 1568 S. Yorktown Place - Tulsa OK - 74104
> > direct: +1 256-428-6101
> > mobile: +1 816-806-8844
> > fax: +1 816-817-0441
> > twitter: ssokol | jabber: sso...@digium.com | skype: ssokol.digium
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>
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[Jeremy Thomerson]

DJP,
  Looks good.  I haven't used the flex iframe component, so I have a couple questions:

- can you listen to JS events, etc, in the loaded page?
- can you call JS on the loaded (embedded) page?

DimDim basically listened to the presenter's frame and caught when the URL changed.  Then they pushed that event to the other participants.  I can't remember the details now because it's been too long, but I think they also caught scrollbar action and pushed that out as well.  But they were using HTML iframe in an HTML page - not flex like this.  So, they were severely limited by XSS issues.

Jeremy

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[Steven Schroedl]

[Steven Schroedl]

all,

I found this flash meeting research site in the UK.  They say they do cobrowsing http://flashmeeting.open.ac.uk/home.html  

On Feb 11, 2010, at 8:37 AM, Jeremy Thomerson wrote:

[DJP]

On 11 fév, 17:37, Jeremy Thomerson <jeremythomer...@gmail.com> wrote:
> DJP,
>   Looks good.  I haven't used the flex iframe component, so I have a couple
> questions:
>
> - can you listen to JS events, etc, in the loaded page?
> - can you call JS on the loaded (embedded) page?

Yes you can, but in my tests, I didn't handle that. But it's "easy" to
implement. Either using FABbridge, or creating our own interface
Jscript <-> Flash.

>
> DimDim basically listened to the presenter's frame and caught when the URL
> changed.  

No, in fact, the "proxy" server parse the full page then replace all
links to javascript function which handle events and sync. They
rewrite the form GET/POST method too. They only add a listener for the
scroll position of the window.
I think that's a bit complicated. I think we can think out of a better
architecture. Parsing is not safe.

>Then they pushed that event to the other participants.  I can't
> remember the details now because it's been too long,

So do I ^^ It's been a while, but as I remember, there are other way
to do co-browsing...

> but I think they also
> caught scrollbar action and pushed that out as well.

Yep !

>  But they were using
> HTML iframe in an HTML page - not flex like this.  

True, in fact dimdim runs over Google GWT which generate HTML and add
simple flash objects like plugins to handle video + mic.
It's easier for them to integrate functionnality like that since it's
HTML based.

Crappy adobe :x Just vote http://bugs.adobe.com/jira/browse/SDK-13740
;-)

I think that constraint is "blocking" for BBB in 2 major
functionnality :
- A "Welcome" screen (branded or not) in HTML to present BBB.
=> I might have find a way to bypass that by using a tool which
convert HTML files (or an URL) to PDF without any loss using webkit
rendering engine. (http://code.google.com/p/wkhtmltopdf/) Works very
well.
So by "default", the presentation module would show up that PDF file.
- Co-browsing in current UI :
=> Seems to works regarding my tests, but still have that z-index
issue. Beware, it seems not to be supported by all browser and to me,
it's not a "real" solution.

One other way would be to open a popup but that's lame, you don't have
all in one screen like chat or presentation window while cobrowsing...

DJP

> > > > >> >>>> bigbluebutton-...@googlegroups.com<bigbluebutton-dev%2Bunsubscr i...@googlegroups.com><bigbluebutton-dev%2Bunsubscr

> > i...@googlegroups.com>
> > > > .
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[DJP]

Yep,

I just tested their demo service, they use a popup page which, I
consider, is not a good solution in the current BBB UI / How module
works.

Thanks for sharing anyway, all solutions should be seen so we can
think of a good way to do in a futur cobrowsing.

DJP

On 11 fév, 18:39, Steven Schroedl <sschro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> all,
>

> I found this flash meeting research site in the UK.  They say they do cobrowsinghttp://flashmeeting.open.ac.uk/home.html 

> ...
>
> plus de détails »

[Denis Zgonjanin]

Hi DJP,

You (or someone else who is interested) could start a branch on this, and it can evolve from there gradually as we learn more, and developers can also check it out and play with it

- Denis

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[DJP]

Hi Denis,

Yeah, I proposed that to Fred last time. I'll create a new branch on
SVN so we can test different kind of solution. I'll commit my work as
soon as I get a little bit of time ;-)

I'll think about a good way to handle that proxy stuff too and will
ask you a feedback on the solution...

DJP

> ...
>
> plus de détails »

[hosdes]

I saw the demo of co-browsing on youtube, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvVEWH-gvLY
and I strongly believe if BBB has a co-browsing feature, it well
surpass all other web conferencing products including dimdim. We find
at some point of any given meeting all participants need to see the
same thing on the web. It would be easier if the moderator opens a co-
browser and controls where the clicks and viewing.

[Steven Sokol]

Just as an FYI on this topic: I contacted the product manager for
Flex at Adobe and asked about the possibility of an embedded browser
widget as a future feature of the framework. His response was:

"We definitely keep investigating ways to make this a little easier,
but I don’t see it being a top-line feature in the near future."

That being the case, we should probably push forward with a plan that
does not include any particular additions to Flex.

Thanks,

-S

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--
Steven Sokol
Digium Inc. | Marketing Manager - Asterisk

[DJP]

Hi Steven,

Many thanks for your feedback and informations.

Too bad, I think Adobe is loosing progressively its advantage over
Silverlight or other technologies... Smooth streaming, embed Iframe is
stuff that Silverlight offers and innovates !

And I don't talk about Iphone stuff (Even if it's an Apple issue,
here's the result : no flash on iphone !) ...

I know having an Iframe component is hard to do/code for Adobe since
it's OS/system dependant and it leaves security issues, but according
to Jiwa in Adobe bugtrack, it seems to be one of the huge request from
the dev...

Well, as you conclude, we should focus on finding another (crappy ?)
solution to do this ;-) And Flex-iframe might be a transitional
solution...

DJP

On 12 fév, 23:26, Steven Sokol <sso...@sokol-associates.com> wrote:
> Just as an FYI on this topic:  I contacted the product manager for
> Flex at Adobe and asked about the possibility of an embedded browser
> widget as a future feature of the framework.  His response was:
>
> "We definitely keep investigating ways to make this a little easier,
> but I don’t see it being a top-line feature in the near future."
>
> That being the case, we should probably push forward with a plan that
> does not include any particular additions to Flex.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -S
>

> On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 10:25 PM, hosdes <indesign...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I saw the demo of co-browsing on youtube,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvVEWH-gvLY

> > and I strongly believe if BBB has a co-browsing feature, it well
> > surpass all other web conferencing products including dimdim.  We find
> > at some point of any given meeting all participants need to see the
> > same thing on the web.  It would be easier if the moderator opens a co-
> > browser and controls where the clicks and viewing.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BigBlueButton-dev" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to bigblueb...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to bigbluebutton-...@googlegroups.com.

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/bigbluebutton-dev?hl=en.