26" vs 700c vs 650B for touring current and future touring?

[Bob Lovejoy]

I was thinking of putting some money into a good touring bike I have, an older Thorn Nomad, adding S&S couplers, possibly upgrading the drive train, but I started thinking about not seeing many new true 26" wheeled bikes in the U.S. these days.  I have read that internationally 26" is still recommended as the most common bike tire size available, but I suspect if I walked into a standard, small U.S. bike shop these days the choices might be few.

So... just looking for an update, really, on what people are currently recommending in tire size for overall touring, say 70% U.S. based, 30% international.  I know there are possible wheel strength differences but this is more about availability than anything.

Thanks for any and all help,

Bob Lovejoy

Denver, CO

P.S.  To Mark and all who post their travel notes... thank you!  They are much appreciated and very useful.

[Kelly Iniguez]

Bob,

I recently had a pair of 26” rim brake wheels built. The selection of rims was very small. Disc brakes are overwhelmingly popular.

We purchased a folding tire in Missoula, MT. Again, 26” had 2-3 choices, while 650B was large. 

I don’t know about international travel.

Kelly

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[LostInTheTrees]

We bought new touring bikes 2 years ago and chose 26” wheels. We rode across the US last year and are riding now in Sweden. We bought the excellent Schwalbe Marathon Supreme tires and we are still riding the same tires. That’s right, across the US and now several hundred miles in Europe. There’s still significant tread left. We’ve had two flats during the rides. My point is that by buying really good tires, you should not need to worry about replacements. We do carry a spare tire and used it last year when one of the flats was a gash.

I had a previous touring bike that was a 29er. That bike was big. It was very difficult to pack in a box and size translated to more weight too. The size of our 26” touring bikes just seems much more reasonable. When you are packing them or taking them into a Dutch elevator (has to go vertical) it’s just easier if they are a little smaller.

As for tubes, if you have an extra tube or two and patch kit, you can handle quite a few punctures if you need to.

We have also found that following established touring routes here (Eurovelo, national and regional routes) we often end up on gravel or dirt. I would really hate to have tires less than about 37mm and we are using 50mm tires. The EV routes seem MORE likely to go on dirt that others, a little counter intuitive.

Most of the time I’m a mountain biker and apparently a dinosaur because I still ride a 26. I just had new wheels custom made. You can find what you need on-line, but parts are getting much harder to come by. If I ever buy a new bike though, I’ll probably have to get a 650b because the market had just disappeared for high end 26” bikes and no one is making them anymore.

Lastly, I haven’t been looking but it seems that I have seen many 26” bikes here. In fact, I’ve seen every kind of bike imaginable.

-Bob Carlson
Tucson AZ

[Robert Tilley]

I'm going through this mental process as well since I'm thinking about an "all terrain" bike for touring & general riding. Mine will likely be semi-custom & my thought was to have it built with disc brakes so I can run either 26" (559) or 650B. I'd likely prefer 559 for the worldwide availability ‎of that size but disc brakes would future proof the bike in some ways if the 559 size ever did go away. I'd need to talk to a builder about designing the frame but even if it's optimized for 559 it would easily take a 650B wheel. The 650B tire would need to have less volume though. So fat 559 tires or skinnier 650B wheels. I'm not going 700c since large volume tires would be tough to get most places.

I'm thinking the trends will change in time and 26" will come back. Everything old is new again at some point.

Robert Tilley

San Diego, CA

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.

From: Bob Lovejoy Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 6:58 AM To: bicycletouring Subject: [touring] 26" vs 700c vs 650B for touring current and future touring?

--

[Bob Lovejoy]

Thanks to all for the replies as they are all useful.

Not that I am necessarily a big fan of disc brakes, but they do have their advantages and one of those is the ability to use different size wheels with the same frame.  There are certainly 700c bikes out there now, made for moderately large 700c tires, but can go much larger/fatter/etc with a 650B wheelset.  That is something to think about. 

And I definitely agree with the size considerations for a large 700c touring bike versus something even slightly smaller - for packing, carrying, etc. That certainly was one of my reasons for thinking about the S&S couplers for the Thorn, even if they do not address all of the issues.  Oh, another vote here for Schwalbe tires and tubes for that matter.  They are the best I know of and not one has let me down without cause or warning.

I do believe the Thorn will remain as is for now as it is a great bike and fits me perfectly.  That said, I will start putting money away for, well, something, a disc brake 700c (but adaptable to 650B) touring bike or maybe even a Bike Friday, just to throw in one more wheel size.  And people have toured on Bromptons (!) - 16"/349 wheels - though I would have to give mine (and myself!) a pretty convincing pep talk.

Good information from all... Thanks!

Bob
Denver, CO

[LostInTheTrees]

I’m a believer in disc brakes regardless of what else you do. They work much better, especially in the wet. I actually switched an old man bike from rim to disk brakes and then got both 559 and 700c wheels for it. It worked decently well.

-Bob
Tucson AZ

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-Bob
Tucson AZ

[Bryan Lorber]

My Chapman ( http://www.chapmancycles.com/2015/10/bryans-rohloff-touring-bike/ ) custom travel bike has 26x2(marathon supremes) and fits beautifully into a 26x26x10" backpack case for airline compliance. With 26" wheels, Rohloff drivetrain, and SS couplings it really is a dream machine, at least for me. Brian Chapman, a true master builder, did not have any trouble finding 26" rims on which to build but I think he prefers building 650B more for aesthetic reasons than anything else. 650B is clearly all the rage especially for the Randonneur crowd. Ditto for disc breaks.

Bryan

Barrington, RI 

[steve]

I strongly recommend 26" wheels on a bike with plenty of clearance to fit a wide range of tire widths.  I have a 26" wheeled LHT and have been ridden in lots of rural USA, Northern Europe, India, and so on.  The 26" is great for comfort and less flats.  

As far as availability, I just went on the REI site and found 25 tire choices for 26" tires.  And in small town America, where there often is no bike shop, Walmart has 26" tires.  Also hardware stores.  You will not find 650s in most of these small town venues.  

Also, if you're thinking of being out where there aren't bike shops for 100+ miles in the direction where you're heading, strongly consider staying with bar-end shifters. Simple mechanicals are important to have "out there".

Thorn has a highly opinionated (but I think pretty compelling) set of reasons for 26 inchers.  Tom's BikeTouring site also has a good discussion of wheel size: http://tomsbiketrip.com/touring-bike-faq-2-26-inch-or-700c-wheel-size/

700s can also get a bit sketchy in terms of availability in rural areas.  Walmart does have them. Not sure that hardware stores have them.  

I usually have wire bead tires on my bike and a spare folded tire when on tour.  A bad blowout that can't be fixed with a boot and you can be screwed, especially off the beaten path with no town for the next 50 miles. I was on back country badly graveled road in New Brunswick last month.  In spite of 1.5"x26", I got a flat. Didn't need the spare tire but had it with....  

Personally, I'd probably stick the money into updating your Thorn, especially if it fits you and you otherwise like it.  

Steve O

Bob Lovejoy <boblo...@gmail.com>: Jul 17 06:58AM -0700

I was thinking of putting some money into a good touring bike I have, an
older Thorn Nomad, adding S&S couplers, possibly upgrading the drive train,
but I started thinking about not seeing many new true 26" wheeled bikes in
the U.S. these days. I have read that internationally 26" is still
recommended as the most common bike tire size available, but I suspect if I
walked into a standard, small U.S. bike shop these days the choices might
be few.

So... just looking for an update, really, on what people are currently
recommending in tire size for overall touring, say 70% U.S. based, 30%
international. I know there are possible wheel strength differences but
this is more about availability than anything.

Steve O'Rourke
P.O. Box 538
Baldwin, WI  54002
 
Bicycle Trips: http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/ScoutSteve 
 
"Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
  genius, power and magic in it!"
 
 ----Goethe quoted in The Scottish Himalyan Expedition by Murray
 

"He that will enjoy the brightness of sunshine, must quit the coolness of the shade."

 

----Samuel Johnson

 

[Robert Tilley]

‎Nice bike! That is very close to what I intend to go for even down to the Loop bars. I would add a Schmidt dynohub to mine. My plan is a Rohloff equipped 26" touring bike. I'd like to have slider dropouts & cable guides for derailleur as well as internal hub cabling so I could use the frame for both gearing types.

I hadn't heard of this builder before so I'll need to check him out. I'd also like couplers but may pass due to the expense. I'd need to weigh the cost vs. savings on any potential bike fees when flying.

Robert Tilley

San Diego, CA

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.

From: Bryan Lorber Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 1:12 PM To: LostInTheTrees Cc: Touring Subject: Re: Re: [touring] 26" vs 700c vs 650B for touring current and future touring?

[Mark Hillman]

I tour annually in the Nordic and Baltic countries + Japan.   . 700c X 42 seems to be the standard in Finland and also in Sweden for the everyday, go to the market tires that I've observed.

Noticed some more 26" in Estonia and Latvia, but still plenty of 700c.. Japan is mostly 26" on their daily bikes.

Mark Hillman

Seattle WA

[Bob Lovejoy]

Hi Bryan,

I must have seen your bike in a post some time ago and have been somewhat in awe of the build, thought and workmanship ever since.  Well chosen!   I have also had Brian's site bookmarked ever since, as a testament to timeless bicycles and the people who build and ride them.  Amazing, amazing work and thought put into your bike.  Thanks for posting!

Bob

[Wrongway Pete]

Greetings ---

Well, I'm somewhat of a retro grouch when it comes to bicycles (friction shifting, 27" and 700c wheels, cantilever vs. disc brakes, etc.) but I'll be building up what I deem my first somewhat "modern" bike, a semi-custom 26" expedition touring machine, which will have index shifting, though not disc brakes, as I don't trust my ability to service discs in the field. 

I call it semi-custom in that, while the frame was custom built, it was made for somebody else, but a person of my height (6'-4"), and with identical rough road travel in mind. 

The frame is British, (picked it up just last week on ebay uk) and fillet brazed by the late, great George Longstaff in 1994 (believe it or not, as a 1994, it will nevertheless be my newest bike by nearly two decades!), with a fork built at a later date by the previous owner, using the Kirk Pacenti Paris Brest  fork crown, so the bike can take wide tires (tyres, as the Brits spell it). Also, I deem it "semi-custom" in that the fork still has an uncut steerer tube. As I like an upright riding style to reduce pressure on my hands and wrists,  I'll probably keep the steerer as is. Alas, that will negate ever thinking I could get the fork into a suitcase! But one must make occasional compromises. 

You can see the frame here, still on ebay ----

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/George-Longstaff-Expedition-Touring-Frame-Reynolds-531-Superb-Fillet-Brazed-/162128331965?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=be2CPEYES9V20v9T0jRkjkhRr9s%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

For tires, I plan to run exactly what the previous owner was looking at  ---- Compass Rat Trap Pass 2.3" / 52mm. 

I have 700c x 38 Compass tires on my retro-fitted Univega Specialissima touring bike (converted from 27") and love them. Also have a 1940s 650B light tourer using Compass / Grand Bois Hetre 42mm tires. I really enjoy  the cushion of the supple, high-volume, low-pressure Compass tires, and, unlike some of my other high-end touring tires which appear more robustly built, the Compass have never suffered a flat, even on very sketchy surfaces carrying full loads over long distances. They just seem to float over stuff and not get pierced. 

So despite what might ultimately display a somewhat awkward-looking profile ( being such a large bike utilizing  26" wheels),  I went with 26" because I wanted a machine that could ride rougher roads and more gravel than what's currently in my stable, and I was also seeking the added sturdiness of 26" wheels, as well as the department store availability of the 559 tires whilst touring in obscure places. 

My thoughts are that 26" wheels do still serve a proper and practical function, even if they are no longer as ubiquitous as in days of yore. 

As is usual, I am way behind the time curve in turning to 26" (and index shifting!), but I still see the 559's place in touring, especially for big guys like me, hauling stuff and riding rough roads. And, as someone who has also looked long and hard at Thorn bikes, my modest advice to you, Bob, is to keep that Thorn 26" machine, fit couplers to it, ride it and enjoy it, which it sounds like you're planning to do.

Yours awheel,

Pete

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"For here is entertainment in excelsis, the sight, the sound and the scent of things....Why cycling for joy is not the most popular passtime on earth is still a mystery to me." ---Frank J. Urry, "SALUTE TO CYCLING"

[Bob Lovejoy]

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the great reply and congratulations on the new frame!  It looks perfect for you and the mission you describe.  It also has many of the attributes that always draw me in... it's British!, it was hand built by someone with knowledge and care, it's distinct with its fillet brazing and purposeful design.  Excellent choice and I am glad it ended up going to you and your future adventures.

My Thorn is fillet brazed as well, and British of course, and built with the same general mission, 26" wheels, rack mounts and the same color.  They have much in common! 

I will have to try the Compass tires.  I just changed from some pretty heavy duty Schwalbe (lugged) tires to Marathon Supremes and that was a good change for my current riding.  I am betting, though, the Compass tires would be a great experiment.  The current drive train on mine is XT 8-speed, with Shimano bar-end shifters, capable of indexing but usually run in friction mode as that is what I am used to (with mostly Suntour barcons on the other older bikes).  I might have to work on gearing a bit for true loaded touring but it will not take much to get there.  Still, I am re-convinced the Thorn definitely has a future, and one that is exactly right for future trips and adventures.

I better go but thanks again for the great reply!

Bob

[Bryan Lorber]

Bob:

Thanks for your kind words on Peregrine, The Traveler. No one at home appreciates her so it's nice when someone does :-) BTW, I think Thorn makes  great bikes. It would be nice if they were available in the States. 

I am running Compass Barlow Pass (ultra lite) 700x38 on my other touring / daily ride (Circle-A Cycles) and they are pretty sweet. They are not as robust as the marathon supremes but much lighter and very comfortable. I plan to use them on the Deerfield Dirt Road Ride (D2R2) next months (100K of lung-busting gravel grinding. Are you familiar with this ride? If not, ask Ms. Google) Jan Heine says the'll be fine so it's a test, of sorts. 

Bryan

Barrington, RI where it's hot as Hell and 25 miles today felt like a chapter from Dante!

[Wrongway Pete]

Hi, Bob ----

Thank YOU for the kind words. 

By the way, the motto on my Longstaff machine reads, "Per-Angusta, Ad-Augusta," which roughly translates to: "Through Trial to Triumph." 

A fitting motto for all bicycle tourists who have laboured up climbs carrying camping gear!

Please do keep us posted as to the eventual updating of your Thorn!

Cheerio,

Pete

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[Mark_Hoagy]

Just thought I haven't replaced the disc rims or any of the 32 hole
spokes front & rear in 9 years. As for loads use panniers for shorter
rides and the 2 wheel trailer otherwise.


On 7/17/2016 3:14 PM, Mark_Hoagy wrote:
> I've never regretted my mechanical Avid BB7 disc brakes since 2007 when
> I bought my MTB. With the touring Marathon's on its been a real nice
> reliable touring bike.

>
>
> On 7/17/2016 2:04 PM, LostInTheTrees wrote:
>> I’m a believer in disc brakes regardless of what else you do. They work
>> much better, especially in the wet. I actually switched an old man bike
>> from rim to disk brakes and then got both 559 and 700c wheels for it. It
>> worked decently well.
>>
>> -Bob
>> Tucson AZ
>>
>> On Jul 17, 2016, at 19:55, Bob Lovejoy <boblo...@gmail.com

>> <mailto:boblo...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks to all for the replies as they are all useful.
>>
>> Not that I am necessarily a big fan of disc brakes, but they do have
>> their advantages and one of those is the ability to use different size
>> wheels with the same frame. There are certainly 700c bikes out there
>> now, made for moderately large 700c tires, but can go much
>> larger/fatter/etc with a 650B wheelset. That is something to think
>> about.
>>
>> And I definitely agree with the size considerations for a large 700c
>> touring bike versus something even slightly smaller - for packing,
>> carrying, etc. That certainly was one of my reasons for thinking about
>> the S&S couplers for the Thorn, even if they do not address all of the
>> issues. Oh, another vote here for Schwalbe tires and tubes for that
>> matter. They are the best I know of and not one has let me down without
>> cause or warning.
>>
>> I do believe the Thorn will remain as is for now as it is a great bike
>> and fits me perfectly. That said, I will start putting money away for,
>> well, something, a disc brake 700c (but adaptable to 650B) touring bike
>> or maybe even a Bike Friday, just to throw in one more wheel size. And
>> people have toured on Bromptons (!) - 16"/349 wheels - though I would
>> have to give mine (and myself!) a pretty convincing pep talk.
>>
>> Good information from all... Thanks!
>>
>> Bob
>> Denver, CO
>
>>

>> -Bob
>> Tucson AZ
>
>

[LostInTheTrees]

That’s what we thought, so we skipped the couplers. When we finally did try flying with them we discovered that the real problem is not the $200 charge. it takes several trips to save enough to pay for the couplers.

The problem is not the cost, the problem is that the stupid airlines do not stock boxes. We called United and asked, “Do you have boxes for bikes at LAX?” “Yes, we do. Sorry they charge $25 dollars for them.” No problem. We planned to ride up, buy the box, pack the bikes and fly away.  Not being a trusting soul I went to the counter at LAX the day before. “Nope” no bike boxes” “you are sure” “Yup no boxes.” We tried 3-4 other airlines. None of them have boxes. We found an REI that had boxes and got the boxes back to the hotel, packed up the bikes. Then had to muscle the boxes into the hotel shuttle the next morning. What should have been very easy turned into a white knocked scramble.

We’re now in Stockholm and in the next few days have to figure out if the airline has boxes here and what to do if they don’t. Airlines SUCK! Buy the couplers.

-Bob
Tucson AZ

On Jul 18, 2016, at 00:29, Robert Tilley <rlti...@gmail.com> wrote:

 I'd need to weigh the cost vs. savings on any potential bike fees when flying.

-Bob
Tucson AZ

[DancesWithCars]

Why not have both brakes systems and a dynohub, besides weight and complexity?

FWIW, I've not seen much 650b, but that's a small part of the USofA.
Wonder what the manufacturers and trade shows think, besides let's revolutionize oh a different standard to make money.  29 exists, but don't see that nor very fat tire often..

[Bryan Lorber]

SS Couplings: Best $500 I ever spent! If one plans on flying more than a couple of times, they are well worth it.

Bryan

Barrington, RI

[LostInTheTrees]

We called the airline today on the Swedish number. “Are you in Sweden?” “No I’m in Houston.” Oh well. She came back after many minutes. “no, we do not supply bike boxes. We found a very nice bike shop not too far from our hotel and they will box the bikes up for us the day before we leave. That means taking a taxi, a larger than normal one, to the airport at a cost of about $90. The boxing up will cost about $80. At least it can be done without too much difficulty, but it’s expensive.

-Bob
Tucson AZ

[E Brody]

a late response about disc brakes - having used them on my Surly Ogre I can say I liked them & wish I'd gotten them for my touring bike when it was made a decade ago - they do stop well - they hold their adjustment & the bike is always clean - even in wet winter weather ! I confess: changing pads was tricky for me --
I also wondered if my old 700c touring bike could be oufitted with disc brake mounts & then just accepted my bike as it is - a great old well-used bike that I can swap accessories on & ride thru many more conditions than I ever  planned on ten years ago - -
I've had a number of well made bikes & have discovered their versitility is limited more by lack of imagination & technical savy than by their original design -
I think mating wheel size to ones personal fit - condtioning - riding style - vision & dreams is more important than trying to second guess the potential for problems in the future --
accepting the relevance of Murphy's Law & its impact on the life of every bicyclist may be more important than all other considerations

[Mark_Hoagy]

was [touring] Re: 26" vs 700c vs 650B for touring current and future
touring?

I noticed Youtube has a lot of bicycle disc brake pad removing,
replacing and adjusting videos even brand specific.

[Mark_Hoagy]

I like my mechanical disc brakes and they stop faster then my rim
brakes. Thought you might be interested:

Mechanical vs. hydraulic disc brakes for road and mountain bikes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sSjO6eQ4I4

How Much Faster Can You Stop With Disc Brakes?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHFSSXOSnxs