Recumbent touring riders

[Henrik V. Risager]

Hello

Because of various ailments, I have been off the bike for three years. I'm thinking about getting a recumbent to start cycling again.

I tried/borrowed the ICE trice for a few weeks two years ago, sadly it didn't have low enough gears for around here. I didn't like it much as my legs was above my bum and that drained my feet. So after every hill I had to stand up to let blood flow back down to my feet.

I tried a HPV Streetmachine and truly enjoyed it. Sadly the model I tried the handle bars were too narrow for me, which made the handling a bit tricky. Best part - but to feet ratio was much better. Couldn't really try it out as the owner is shorter than me. But she have not had problems with riding fully loaded in terrain that we live in.

I have fallen for the Azub Six, looks good, cheaper than the Streetmachine. Haven't tried it out yet. Not much to read about it online, but what I can find it looks like a good company and a good ride.

I don't think we will be doing a world tour again, but up to a week or two will happen. I might also need to drag a trailer around with dog in. Mainly it will be used for commuting, day/weekend rides and shopping. There might be a bit single track thrown in, though not full on down hill/mountain biking. Fallen off way too many times on my MTB back in the day :)

So does any of you ride a "sofa" while touring and do you have some pro and cons, things I need to look out for etc.

Thanks

--

http://www.woollypigs.com
http://photos.woollypigs.com

[Mark Boyd]

I was working, for several years, on making the transition to
recumbent bikes before I had open heart surgery in Feb. of 2014. It
was hard for me. After surgery, I was able to ride bent without
stressing my recently split open chest so I stopped riding my upright
bikes. Other than a short - 4 days -tour at the end of last summer,
Iall of riding since then has be on SWB recumbents. In June, I did my
first recumbent tour, riding from Fort Collins CO back to Asheville
NC.

Because it was only four months after the surgery and because I was
'bent,' I was slower, but I adapted to that and had a good tour.
Because I could not climb as well on recumbents, I planned what I
thought was a flat route, but I misjudged Nebraska and ended up
climbing a lot more than I expected. That fall, I rode down to central
Florida and back. Last spring I rode down again on a hillier route.
Last summer I took one of my two recumbents to Europe and rode a
somewhat shorter version of my usual European tour. I've now toured
about 5000 miles, fully loaded, on recumbents.

For me, touring on recumbents is more enjoyable than touring on
upright bikes, but it is definitely slower, except going downhill ;-},
and climbing is harder. I have had to adjust my expectations for the
distance I can cover in a day and accept being passed by joggers (!)
when climbing steep hills.

When I was stuck in persistent A-Fib, I got good at climbing really
slowly on my upright bikes. I could climb at 4 kph on my Waterford
1200. On my V-Rex I can get down to maybe 6 kph before I have trouble
holding my line on a steep climb. That, combined with the fact that I
can't generate as much power using only my legs as I could when I was
able to use some big upper body muscles as well as my legs, makes
climbing long steep grades difficult and climbing even gentle grades
slower. My lowest gear, 20/36, is almost too low to hold a good line
so I often climb steep grades in 20/32.

The upsides of recumbent touring are great. The most important one is
probably "Nothing hurts at the end of the day." The view - what you
can see - while riding is also MUCH better as it the ability to
interact with people along the way.

Mark

[Henrik V. Risager]

Hi Mark, I for one is not a racer, I stop for cake. Our average distance touring is about 35 miles per day. Know for doing a 5 miles day and even an 80 miles, shocking :)

I'm not scared of getting off and pushing, I would rather get to the top and enjoy the view. Than arrive with my eyes balling out and gagging for air for the first 10-15 min.

Around here I will need to learn to go slow on a recumbent. I'm looking into the various gearing options. 

I like the "Nothing hurts at the end of the day". Because of my ailments I'm looking at a bent with under seat steering. 

My friend with the Streetmachine, told me that she was not the last person up a long steep hill(Great Dun Fell, Britain highest road, 7.4Km, 8% adv), even when she climbed at a steady 3mph. If she can do that, I can do that, we used to be at the same levels, back when I was last riding.

H 

[Jon Meinecke]

Underseat steering (USS) recumbent bikes are less common in North America than in Europe.  There are a few (e.g. Linear) USS current US models.  Many more from Europe, most all of them short wheelbase (SWB).

The loaded bikes categorized collection at CrazyGuyOnABike doesn't show too many USS SWB setups from the journals there.

https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=tS&doc_id=8000&v=4Ju

You should ride what you like and are comfortable with and USS works well and is a strong preference for some people. But A well fitted over seat steering system (OOS) should be very comfortable for most people and there are lots of configurations possible with handlebar angles, widths, and distance.  You may find that OSS steering allows better climbing by allowing (not requiring) some upper body use.

You might want to browse the reviews and message forums at www.bentrideronline.com.  Lots of recumbent opinions and experiences are reflected there.  Non-tourers outnumber tourers there, but there is a touring subforum.

My touring bike is a Tour Easy (LWB), but I have two SWB recumbents (Volae Sport 2x650c, Challenge TaiFun 2x20") and RANS Screamer tandem.  I rode a Challenge Mistral on a bike vacation in The Netherlands. It had OSS steering, but is available with USS.  They also have 2x26 and 20x26 touring bikes.

http://www.challengebikes.com/touring_recumbents.php

Good Luck,

Jon

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[Jon Meinecke]

Opps,.. also meant to mention seat types and positions as variables to consider.  There are many types of seats, some with mesh bottoms and backs, some with foam padded seat bottoms and mesh backs, some with one-peice seat and backs....  For many people, the choice of seat and recline options are high on the selection criteria.

Jon

[Mark Boyd]

I rode a Street Machine bike with underseat steering and suspension. I
enjoyed riding it but wouldn't want to tour on it. My attitude is
suspension adds unneeded complexity - I'd rather run bigger tires at
lower pressure - and under seat steering makes it difficult to
maneuver the bike when I'm not riding it.

My Giro, with tweener handlebars, limits my maneuverability when I'm
riding because the bars hit my legs, but is fine when I'm trying to
get it into a room or a garage at night. The Street Machine is a real
pain to maneuver in tight quarters without picking it up because,
unlike a bike with over seat steering, you can't turn the front wheel
perpendicular to the bike frame.' I'm actually thinking about - the
bike is in Germany and I'm in the States - switching my Giro to a
praying hamster (US) or preying mantis (Europe) over seat steering
setup to decrease its turning radius while I'm riding it and allowing
me to pedal while turning sharply.

Another issue that you might want to consider is the ability to push
the bike from behind, That works really well on my V-Rex, but not at
all on my Giro because its steering doesn't self center. I have to
push it from the side with one hand on the handlebar and the other on
its seat back. It would be quite uncomfortable to push a bike with
underseat steering from the side...

Mark

[Kelly Iniguez]

Henrick,

I went recumbent in 1998 because my rear end got SO sore on a regular bike. Cycling is no fun when you hurt. 

I suggest gears as low as you can get them for hill

Climbing. 

I like using an underseat rack as it keeps the weight down low. 

I did tour with a trailer for several

Years and found it to be a nice setup but finding a parking spot was like landing a jetliner. I would

Go round and round the parking lot looking for a place big enough. Panniers are easier. 

With feet down low - I enjoy my RANS Stratus XP. It is a very user friendly bike. 

Welcome to the club!

Kelly

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 1, 2016, at 8:40 AM, Jim Foreman <jimf...@att.net> wrote:

'fraid my recumbent experience is rather limited.... about 25 feet the first time and close to 100 yards the second time. No third try as it hurts like hell when I fall any more. But there are three (or more) people on the touring list who should be able to give you a lot of good advice. Mark Boyd, Kelly Iniguez and Mel Norton.

Jim Foreman 

[Chip Mefford]

Good day all:

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Henrik V. Risager" <wooll...@gmail.com>
> To: "bicycletouring" <bicycle...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 1, 2016 8:34:34 AM
> Subject: [touring] Recumbent touring riders

> Hello
>
> Because of various ailments, I have been off the bike for three years. I'm
> thinking about getting a recumbent to start cycling again.
>
> I tried/borrowed the ICE trice for a few weeks two years ago, sadly it
> didn't have low enough gears for around here. I didn't like it much as my
> legs was above my bum and that drained my feet. So after every hill I had
> to stand up to let blood flow back down to my feet.
>
> I tried a HPV Streetmachine and truly enjoyed it. Sadly the model I tried
> the handle bars were too narrow for me, which made the handling a bit
> tricky. Best part - but to feet ratio was much better. Couldn't really try
> it out as the owner is shorter than me. But she have not had problems with
> riding fully loaded in terrain that we live in.
>
> I have fallen for the Azub Six, looks good, cheaper than the Streetmachine.
> Haven't tried it out yet. Not much to read about it online, but what I can
> find it looks like a good company and a good ride.

I've worked on a number of Azub rides, and they are practically bomb proof.
Absolutely one of the best builds out there. Sure, there is a lot about
personal taste when it comes to such strange rides as recumbents tend to be,
But the Azub line is as no-compromise when it comes to quality as they come.
There is other stuff that is "as good" in a lot of regard, but very few have
anything like the level of adjustability when it comes to nailing down the
'fit', nor are many anywhere nearly as downright tough.

All of this comes at a cost of course. There are a lot of moving pieces
on an Azub, and of course, they ain't cheap. Further, they ain't all that
light either. But if you are good with those, I think it's an excellent
choice.

--

[Mark Boyd]

On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 12:26 PM, <marty...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi Mark,
>
> The praying mantis style will give you a better turning but won't you still
> have to avoid pedaling somewhat during the turn to avoid heel strike on the
> front wheel?

Yes, of course, but I find that less of a problem that the leg
interference with tweener bars. I once rode a P-38 with a 16" front
wheel where heel strike didn't occur, but it is an issue on the V-Rex.
However, I have small feet - EU 42 -, short cranks - 165mm -, and I
don't clip in so it hasn't been much of a problem.


Mark

[Cliff Allo]

Yes, welcome to the comfort class.

My first ‘bent was a V-Rex. My first cross country tour was with the standard gearing in 2003 when I was 57. With an underseat and rear rack, I had a decent luggage load and the hills on old US 40 (with all its names) in Maryland were right at my limit.

 By the time I rode it from Puget Sound to Portland Maine for my second cross country trip I had a 20 tooth, titanium granny on the front and correspondingly  lower middle and “big” rings. That made climbing much easier. 

I always envy Mark’s ability to balance. I could keep the V-Rex under control down to about 3.4 mph but that was the edge. I found climbing the divide from Helena on US 12 in 2011 on the way home from Boston with no shoulder and truck traffic to be a bit stressful and began to think about getting a trike to allow me to climb as slowly as needed.

A second factor led me to get a new rig: in 2007 in Nebraska and elsewhere I found I was getting headaches from the expansion joints on concrete highways. On a diamond frame one can lift off the seat to absorb those jolts. On a bent, not so much even if a little. 

I settled on a HP Velotechnik Scorpion FS. It’s fully suspended and makes the jolts much less of a problem. It has underseat steering which turned out to be at least as comfortable as the V-Rex flip it oss. I got it with both the three speed rear hub and a 27 speed dual derailer. I have a lot of overlap in the gears but the key thing is my lowest gear is 9.7 gear inches or so and my top is still above 100. I can basically climb anything that is paved. In 2003 I got off the C & O canal path pretty quickly because it was too rough for my comfort on the V-Rex. In 2013, I cruised the tow path from Cumberland to Harper’s Ferry, sometimes slow, sometimes as fast as 14 mph, on my Scorpion, letting the shocks absorb all the bumps and not worrying about skidding on sand or mud. It is a fantastic touring machine.

Mark is right about getting ‘bents into hotel rooms. The V-Rex is not really wider than an upright and works fine in any motel with a decent elevator or straight stairway. Many tight bends yield to dancing it on its rear wheel with the front held high. Older Super 8s, however, are usually a pain. When I need to push it through a lobby or the few times on a hill, it’s easy to push the back of the RANS seat and steer it by tilting. The Scorpion is wider and can be a challenge. Removing the fairing is a start, rotating it 90 degrees will help, and some times folding it is the answer but unfolded usually works better for doorways. Folding is most valuable to get inside our Toyota Matrix. 

For commuting, my original purpose, the V-Rex is nice because your head is high and it actually is quite maneuverable in traffic though I never tried jumping curbs. The Scorpion is quite low but so different that it is noticeable to some folks in a way an ordinary bike might not be. Nonetheless, I run two flags to keep peace at home.

From what you have shared, it sounds like the difference in height between the cranks and your seat may be very important. I have come to prefer the roughly equal height of the Scorpion over the slightly lower feet on the V-Rex. I offer that only to note that sometimes, some folks can adjust, and other times, other folks know what is uncomfortable and shouldn’t fight it. The trick is to know in which set one actually resides. 

The next issue might be the seat. If I could easily put a RANS seat on my Scorpion, I’d cheerfully spend $500 to do so. The trike’s seat is ok but the RANS seat deserves its widespread praise. One thing I learned, however. Until I learned to spin properly, I went through a seat back mesh roughly every year as I powered up hills and down the road. An injury when I reached a hill too big for bad technique induced change and the progressively lower gearing and longer life for the seat backs and as well as knees. My major complaint with the Scorpion’s seat is having it hold me from sliding forward. It’s hard to get the angle just where I want it. 

Gearing you can control on any rig. I recommend getting it delivered with no bigger than a 22 tooth granny. You don’t need more than a 44 up front. The rest is taste. 

I very much like having a generator hub so that my front and rear lights can be on at all times and so that my batteries never run low. 

Some folks don’t like clipless on ‘bents. I gashed my shin the first week end when my right foot slipped off the pedal on my V-Rex. in 15 years, I have failed to unclip only three times and each fall was sufficiently gentle to avoid injury. The few times I have crashed, my feet remained clipped in and I avoided joint damage. Between the wide seat back and the handlebars, the V-Rex actually gave me a bit of a cage. I had road rash and one time when a stick jumped into my front wheel a gash from the big ring on my thigh but no injuries that slowed me for more than 15 minutes to settle down, to clean wounds, and to recognize that I was too far from home (e.g. North Dakota and Massachusetts) to call for help. I have been told that folks that lose contact with pedals can suffer “leg suck” when the ground friction drags the leg back. Perhaps that is only legend. I also find that being clipped in makes spinning much easier. 

With the V-Rex I carried two sets of spares for the tires and tubes; with the Scorpion I can get by with one set but end up with one set of spare tubes and different tires for the front and back. Schwalbe has trike specific tires that are much better on the front of the trike. On the back, which is more of a pain to remove, I run the best touring tire in Schwalbe’s current 20 inch line for extra flat resistance and longer life. I carry more tires and tubes than some because I’d rather fix flats in the comfort of my motel room after I’ve had dinner. I also tend to get about a thousand touring miles out of rear tires and 1500 or so from fronts on the V-Rex. I don’t have that much experience on the Scorpion yet but it looks like it might be comparable. If I start out with a decent inventory, I have a shot of getting across to the other coast without resupply. In 2013, the light weight Marathons didn’t cut it and I needed a resupply by mail from Hostel shop to a motel in Wyoming. 

During the process of exploring lower gears, I inadvertently learned of the Q-factor, the horizontal distance between the pedals. My store set me up with pedals that were too far apart and discomfort followed within minutes. All depends upon the curvature or not of the cranks.

The Hostel Shoppe Catalog is a very good and provides a nice introduction to a range of ‘bents. And the web as well. The likelihood is that a trusted, local bike shop can get whatever you want though being able to try them is invaluable. 

So the bottom (pun intended) line is that ‘bents for most of us are more comfortable, they can carry luggage, underseat is very good on a two-wheeler, trikes are even more comfortable but have their costs and disadvantages, and most of them can have all the bells and whistles one can imagine. 

As to your traveling companion, unless your best friend is large, I would try for something on top of the rear rack rather than a trailer. The rig would handle better, “parking” and motels would be easier, and your buddy might like looking over your shoulder better. 

[Mark Boyd]

I worried about the arm pit issue when I got the V-Rex after I already
had the Giro. It didn't turn out to be as much of a problem as I
expected. I have my handle bars just high enough above my chest so
that the bars don't get caught on my shirt and my seat as reclined as
it can be. I find it very comfortable, even in hot weather. I was just
thinking this morning that, for cold weather riding, I need to raise
it a bit to clear the extra clothing.

The V-Rex is very responsive. I really enjoy that during recreational
riding, but I found, by accident, that I can reduce that by using a
heavy slimed tube in the front tire. That makes it easier to control
when I'm touring and climbing slowly while other vehicles are passing
me too closely.

Mark


On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 1:04 PM, <marty...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Good point, so many options :) I am very large (6" 4' tall and 48eu shoe)
> and way back when I had a V-Rex it had the praying mantis steering. It was
> OK but I found it less stable having my hands so close to my body and having
> my elbows in vs extended. Also I would be sweating in the elbow crease and
> it would be red and irritated especially on hot days. Perhaps I had it to
> close to my body........something to explore again in the future. Would be
> interested in your experiences when you make the change.
>
> Marty
>
> ________________________________
> From: "Mark Boyd" <mark...@gmail.com>
> To: "marty111111" <marty...@comcast.net>, "touring"
> <bicycle...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 1, 2016 10:39:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [touring] Recumbent touring riders

[Kelly Iniguez]

I had one recumbent with USS. I thought it sounded like a good idea to have my arms fully relaxed. For me, it was like torture. My underarms would sweat and the sweat would slowly, very slowly roll down the inside of my arms. It was horrible? Personally, I like the OSS much better for ventilation.

The few times I tried the movable handlebars, they made me very nervous. I didn’t feel in control.

There are many styles of recumbents, something for everyone. You just have to decide what works for you.

Kelly

[Cliff Allo]

If you go with OSS, the TerraCycle replacement part for the Flip-It on the V-Rex or similar arrangements is first class.
http://t-cycle.com/handlebars-stems-steering-c-8/glideflex-stem-p-98.html

[Henrik V. Risager]

Thanks all, tonnes to learn here, thanks for the heads up.

The reason for not being on a bike in the last three years is very much arm related and we had to cut our around the world tour short because of it. The two recumbent I have tried had USS and I did not have any issues with my arms/hands while riding them. Holding my arms up for will cause problems just like when I have tried to ride a normal bike since it all started. 

The Streetmachine was to laidback for my liking, though I hear that the more experienced you get the easier and comfier it is. 

What I like about the Azub is that I can sit up rather high, compared to a trike, and there is plenty of adjustments.

I'm pretty sure I can handle the service etc since I work in a bike shop part time. So spare parts will go via that, you know discount etc :)

On my "up wrong" I got the 22/34 as my lowest gear and have managed most of the hills I have encountered. Need to figure out a better way to push a bent uphill or get real good at going slow uphill :) Never really used the 44/11 because I go fast enough downhill freewheeling and soon have to gear down again because of uphill or red light or sheep.

H

[Neil Schneider]

I have a Bachetta SWB and a Quest velomobile. I've toured in the Quest, but not the Bachetta. When I first started out, I experienced the same sensations with my legs. I could barely ride around the neighborhood before my legs felt spent. You use the muscles differently when riding recumbent and it takes some time to adjust. One of my fellow velonauts described it as being closer to swimming than bicycling. I didn't understand that at first. I use my glutes and my calves more riding recumbent. After riding for a while and training my muscles I now find it less taxing to go longer distances than on my upright bikes. 

Good luck in your search for the perfect recumbent for you.

Neil Schneider - Velo Rambler
velor...@gmail.com

[scotsman001]

I have a Longbikes Slipstream LWB USS, which I find just right for me. I'm 6'2" 250. Bike will take 400# according to Longbikes. Virtually everything is adjustable, nice sized tires with narrow(er) rims. Had a RANS Stratus OSS, but hands kept going to sleep. Slipstream was very comfortable riding HHH. Have tried several bents, but my Slipstream is better by far, for me. Really did like Jon's TourEasy, though, but it didn't have enough weight capacity.

Pleasure to climb off at the end of the day and be able to sleep well . . . or go dancing!

Check out the Longbikes site.

Terry (Tillman)