Panaracer T-serv for loaded touring?
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Derek Z
Apr 27, 2011, 2:23:19 PM4/27/11
to bicycletouring
Hello touring Bobs,
I'm interested in trying T-servs (700x32) for loaded touring but I'm
concerned about sidewall durability. I've seen & read about numerous
examples of Pasela sidewall failure under heavy loads and I don't know
if the T-serv sidewall is significantly stronger than the Pasela's.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
Best,
Derek Z.
I'm interested in trying T-servs (700x32) for loaded touring but I'm
concerned about sidewall durability. I've seen & read about numerous
examples of Pasela sidewall failure under heavy loads and I don't know
if the T-serv sidewall is significantly stronger than the Pasela's.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
Best,
Derek Z.
doug peterson
Apr 27, 2011, 3:14:37 PM4/27/11
to bicycletouring
Derek:
I've used both the Pasela and the T-Serv for loaded touring. The T-
Serv has significantly better sidewall construction and is much more
flat resistant. My Paselas suffered from sidewall cuts. My LBS
suggested up-grading to T-Servs based on their having used them as a
commuter / urban tire and getting good results. I had no sidewall
issues whatsoever with the T-Servs & can recommend them. There is no
free ride, however. The heavier sidewalls of the T-Servs make for a
stiffer ride. Don't overdo the air pressure.
Subsequent to that, I moved to Schwalbe Marathon Supremes. Life is
about double either of the Panaracer products but the cost is also
roughly double. Nice ride, no flats and long life.
dougP
I've used both the Pasela and the T-Serv for loaded touring. The T-
Serv has significantly better sidewall construction and is much more
flat resistant. My Paselas suffered from sidewall cuts. My LBS
suggested up-grading to T-Servs based on their having used them as a
commuter / urban tire and getting good results. I had no sidewall
issues whatsoever with the T-Servs & can recommend them. There is no
free ride, however. The heavier sidewalls of the T-Servs make for a
stiffer ride. Don't overdo the air pressure.
Subsequent to that, I moved to Schwalbe Marathon Supremes. Life is
about double either of the Panaracer products but the cost is also
roughly double. Nice ride, no flats and long life.
dougP
Chuck Davis
Apr 27, 2011, 4:34:06 PM4/27/11
to Derek Z, Touring List
I use 700x35 Pasela TG
The side walls may cut easier than some; they probably ride/handle better/nicer than others because of their sidewall construction
All tires are a bit of a compromise
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I'm Chuck Davis and I approved this posting notwithstanding some moderators won't
The shoppe is at:
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1408 E 11th ST
Tulsa, OK 74120
918-587-0574 Shoppe TP/FX)
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When ya really bored and/or otherwise want to understand just how cool a dude I yam, czech the deranged drivel and nonsense below:
Allen Morris
Apr 27, 2011, 8:57:56 PM4/27/11
to Chuck Davis, Derek Z, Touring List
I used 700x32 Pasela (TG rear, regular front) on a fully loaded
tandem. I had no trouble with the sidewalls.
tandem. I had no trouble with the sidewalls.
At 2000 km the tires were well worn, but the weather was cool and wet
and we weighed around 250 kg and did lots of hills.
I would have preferred the TG on both wheels.
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=RrzKj&doc_id=5857&v=I8&term=morsel&context=all
Derek Z
Apr 27, 2011, 9:43:45 PM4/27/11
to bicycletouring
Thanks all! I think I'll try the T-Serv - sounds like it will be
plenty tough. I've had ridiculously great luck with Pasela's over the
years on both my road and commuter bikes. I'd like to stick with
Panaracer.
Best,
Derek Z.
On Apr 27, 8:57 pm, Allen Morris <g...@gam3.net> wrote:
> I used 700x32 Pasela (TG rear, regular front) on a fully loaded
> tandem. I had no trouble with the sidewalls.
>
> At 2000 km the tires were well worn, but the weather was cool and wet
> and we weighed around 250 kg and did lots of hills.
>
> I would have preferred the TG on both wheels.
>
> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=RrzKj&doc_id=5857&v=I8&term=mor...
> > Use Davisat...@gmail.com for the really serious stuff
plenty tough. I've had ridiculously great luck with Pasela's over the
years on both my road and commuter bikes. I'd like to stick with
Panaracer.
Best,
Derek Z.
On Apr 27, 8:57 pm, Allen Morris <g...@gam3.net> wrote:
> I used 700x32 Pasela (TG rear, regular front) on a fully loaded
> tandem. I had no trouble with the sidewalls.
>
> At 2000 km the tires were well worn, but the weather was cool and wet
> and we weighed around 250 kg and did lots of hills.
>
> I would have preferred the TG on both wheels.
>
John Blish
Apr 27, 2011, 9:59:20 PM4/27/11
to Chuck Davis, Derek Z, Touring List
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:34 PM, Chuck Davis <dang....@gmail.com> wrote:
I use 700x35 Pasela TG
The side walls may cut easier than some; they probably ride/handle better/nicer than others because of their sidewall construction
All tires are a bit of a compromise
I use 700x35 Pasela TG
The side walls may cut easier than some; they probably ride/handle better/nicer than others because of their sidewall construction
All tires are a bit of a compromise
-----------------------------------------------------------
+1 to what Chuck said on my LHT. No sidewall cuts yet. I can accept this compromise. Pasela TG go on and off my (PJW built) Mavic A719 rims easily. Cost of this tire at Nashbar is still reasonable with no disrespect to Celeste or anyone at SchwalbeTires.com. They have great products, too.
-jb
--
John Blish
Minneapolis MN USA
Derek Z
Apr 27, 2011, 11:23:21 PM4/27/11
to bicycletouring
I just received an official reply from Panaracer and it wasn't what I
was expecting - does this seem correct (see below)?
I've always been under the impression that of the three tires, the
basic Pasela had the most supple sidewall.
Confused,
Derek
"Hi,
The Pasela steel bead is going to have the toughest (and heaviest)
sidewall due to the combination of a 60 TPI casing and steel bead. T-
Serv and Pasela TG use a 126 TPI casing, which is more supple, but not
as tough as 60 TPI.
Sincerely,
Help @
Panasonic PolyTechnology Co., Ltd"
On Apr 27, 9:59 pm, John Blish <jbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
was expecting - does this seem correct (see below)?
I've always been under the impression that of the three tires, the
basic Pasela had the most supple sidewall.
Confused,
Derek
"Hi,
The Pasela steel bead is going to have the toughest (and heaviest)
sidewall due to the combination of a 60 TPI casing and steel bead. T-
Serv and Pasela TG use a 126 TPI casing, which is more supple, but not
as tough as 60 TPI.
Sincerely,
Help @
Panasonic PolyTechnology Co., Ltd"
On Apr 27, 9:59 pm, John Blish <jbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
Chuck Davis
Apr 28, 2011, 11:16:38 AM4/28/11
to Derek Z, bicycletouring
Lennard Zinn at Velo News writes an informative column that is worth reading regardless of what inclinations a bicyclist might "favor"
A few years back he visited the Vredestein and Continental factories and printed at "white paper" by Vredestein as part of his factory visit report
Thread count (TPI) as used in a tire carcass and/or sidewall as might influence a tire's handling and durability alone might not mean too much according to Vredestein w/o knowing more about the composition of the fiber in terms of density
As I recall, Vred used a lower thread count of a high density (thread made of more filaments, bigger thread maybe) to achieve their desired handling characteristic in their performance tire
I have Panaracer Paselas and Somas made by Panaracer on my wheels (700x35) and gen like the way they ride; I have riden wheels with 700x32 Marathon maybe around the block at the shoppe and subjectively think they "may" be a bit harder riding than the Panaracers, any differing factors might explain
I have had a small nick/cut on a Panaracer Pasela sidewall and have no idea how it got there, I put a Park boot on it and still have it on a wheel
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 10:23 PM, Derek Z <zei...@gmail.com> wrote:
I just received an official reply from Panaracer and it wasn't what I
was expecting - does this seem correct (see below)?
I've always been under the impression that of the three tires, the
basic Pasela had the most supple sidewall.
Confused,
Derek
"Hi,
The Pasela steel bead is going to have the toughest (and heaviest)
sidewall due to the combination of a 60 TPI casing and steel bead. T-
Serv and Pasela TG use a 126 TPI casing, which is more supple, but not
as tough as 60 TPI.
Sincerely,
Help @
Panasonic PolyTechnology Co., Ltd"
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ernest breakfield
Apr 28, 2011, 12:21:30 PM4/28/11
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i wouldn't be surprised if
the sidewall suppleness wasn't apparent merely from the TPI; as
others have pointed out, the TPI isn't the exclusive factor
influencing that aspect.
however, i don't see how whether a bead was wire or folding would have any bearing on the "tough[ness]" of a sidewall (however that might be measured),... this makes the validity of the entire response suspect to me.
cheers!
e
however, i don't see how whether a bead was wire or folding would have any bearing on the "tough[ness]" of a sidewall (however that might be measured),... this makes the validity of the entire response suspect to me.
cheers!
e
doug peterson
Apr 28, 2011, 1:10:36 PM4/28/11
to bicycletouring
Derek:
My understanding is the same as yours: basic Pasela is best riding;
add the TG for better flat protection & give up some ride quality; go
up to the T-Serv for even better durability but trade-off a bit more
suppleness. It's all compromises, based on what the rider wants in a
tire.
Panaracer's response doesn't ring true. For starters, the bead is
there to keep the tire on the rim & I can't see how it would have any
influence on tire durability or ride quality.
Based on having used both basic Paselas and T-Servs, I'd lean toward T-
Servs for loaded touring. They are definitely more durable than the
basic Pasela. I've no experience with the TG but IIRC it's a belt
under the tread whereas the T-Serv adds a tougher sidewall. FWIW on
of my tour buds uses TGs exclusivly on his loaded tourer & urban
basher and has had no problems with either.
dougP
> > Minneapolis MN USA- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
My understanding is the same as yours: basic Pasela is best riding;
add the TG for better flat protection & give up some ride quality; go
up to the T-Serv for even better durability but trade-off a bit more
suppleness. It's all compromises, based on what the rider wants in a
tire.
Panaracer's response doesn't ring true. For starters, the bead is
there to keep the tire on the rim & I can't see how it would have any
influence on tire durability or ride quality.
Based on having used both basic Paselas and T-Servs, I'd lean toward T-
Servs for loaded touring. They are definitely more durable than the
basic Pasela. I've no experience with the TG but IIRC it's a belt
under the tread whereas the T-Serv adds a tougher sidewall. FWIW on
of my tour buds uses TGs exclusivly on his loaded tourer & urban
basher and has had no problems with either.
dougP
>
> - Show quoted text -
Chuck Davis
Apr 28, 2011, 1:37:08 PM4/28/11
to bicycle...@googlegroups.com
It may well be a matter of expectations, but all I can reading to Panasonic's response is
As to the three tires mentioned, if a tougher sidewall is desired go with the std wire bead Pasela w/ 60 TPI, and not the T Serve (all folding?) and folding and wire bead Pasela TG at w/126 TPI
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fietsBob
Apr 28, 2011, 4:50:47 PM4/28/11
to bicycletouring
Just bring along a back up tire, as a spare..
Alex Wetmore
Apr 28, 2011, 4:59:57 PM4/28/11
to fietsBob, bicycletouring
You should do that for any tire that is used on a long distance tour or rides in remote areas, even if your tires are nearly solid rubber.
alex
________________________________________
From: bicycle...@googlegroups.com [bicycle...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of fietsBob [fiet...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:50 PM
To: bicycletouring
Subject: [touring] Re: Panaracer T-serv for loaded touring?
Neil Schneider
Apr 30, 2011, 11:42:41 AM4/30/11
to doug peterson, bicycletouring
doug peterson wrote:
> Panaracer's response doesn't ring true. For starters, the bead is
> there to keep the tire on the rim & I can't see how it would have any
> influence on tire durability or ride quality.
If you've never used folding tires, then this wouldn't make sense to you.
However, folding tires are made much differently in the sidewalls and thus
would effect the suppleness and ride of the tire. Wire beaded tires tend to
have stiffer sidewalls from my experience. This would make them less supple,
and therefore a harsher ride and lower performance.
YMMV
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Neil Schneider velor...@gmail.com
http://www.velorambler.com
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"Work to eat, eat to live, live to bike, bike to work." -- Naomi Bloom
ernest breakfield
Apr 30, 2011, 5:16:31 PM4/30/11
to bicycle...@googlegroups.com
"Ride Quality"
consists of multiple factors.
i believe that "ride quality" can be affected by the difference in handling due to the difference in weight between wire and folding beads, but it's the sidewall that makes the difference in "ride quality" as it relates to ride suppleness.
some tire models have been offered in both wire bead and folding bead versions; the only difference i've noticed in ride using both versions in the same model is in handling, due to the fact that the wire bead versions are heavier. (wire beaded tires also happen to be more difficult to store and carry, and are usually more difficult to mount.)
'heavier-duty' tires often have both wire beads and stiffer sidewalls, and it seems like the choices are slimmer if you're looking for a folding bead option. my theory is that mfrs logic holds that those people willing to trade ride quality for durability would be less interested in paying more for a lighter version of that tire with a folding bead, especially since the difference in weight is a smaller percentage of a heavier tire.
cheers!
e
i believe that "ride quality" can be affected by the difference in handling due to the difference in weight between wire and folding beads, but it's the sidewall that makes the difference in "ride quality" as it relates to ride suppleness.
some tire models have been offered in both wire bead and folding bead versions; the only difference i've noticed in ride using both versions in the same model is in handling, due to the fact that the wire bead versions are heavier. (wire beaded tires also happen to be more difficult to store and carry, and are usually more difficult to mount.)
'heavier-duty' tires often have both wire beads and stiffer sidewalls, and it seems like the choices are slimmer if you're looking for a folding bead option. my theory is that mfrs logic holds that those people willing to trade ride quality for durability would be less interested in paying more for a lighter version of that tire with a folding bead, especially since the difference in weight is a smaller percentage of a heavier tire.
cheers!
e
John Wood
May 2, 2011, 1:22:05 AM5/2/11
to Derek Z, bicycletouring
I see nothing wrong with their response. They say both tougher and heavier sidewall for the standard Pasela, and that makes sense - 60tpi makes it tougher, steel bead makes it heavier. Also gotta keep in mind that standard Pasela may in fact be fastest of the 3 due to it's lack of a puncture resistant belt, even though the casing is "stiffer". Refer to this article for good information about thread count and belts:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/tech-feature-the-work-of-wheel-energy
Scroll down to the sections titled "Higher thread counts aren't always better" and "Puncture resistant belts work, but they're not created equal".
John
--
John Wood
Open Road Bicycles
Missoula, Montana, USA
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/tech-feature-the-work-of-wheel-energy
Scroll down to the sections titled "Higher thread counts aren't always better" and "Puncture resistant belts work, but they're not created equal".
John
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John Wood
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