telephone GPS?

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Peter White

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Aug 16, 2020, 3:26:17 PM8/16/20
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When I'm out exploring the small back roads and racing the black flies, my Garmin does a rather poor job of showing the roads in the area. Apple Maps gives me a far better map than what the Garmin has. But at least half of New Hampshire is out of cell tower range, so often I can't tell where I am. My iPhone 6S is about 4 years old and has something called GPS assist, which just works with the cell towers. The new iPhones all claim to have true GPS, but I'm getting conflicting information from various vendors.

Anyone know whether the iPhone SE actually tracks the satellites? In other words, if you have no signal bars on the phone, if in other words you can't possibly make a telephone call, can you still see your location on the mapping software?

Thanks,

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Peter White

Bell

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Aug 16, 2020, 3:33:03 PM8/16/20
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Looks like without network coverage it may not function well  this article tells a lot
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Landofopus

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Aug 16, 2020, 3:34:24 PM8/16/20
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You need to get an offline mapping app. 

Even the newer iPhones with a dedicated chip will not show anything besides a blue dot on the map if the maps aren’t in memory already. You can’t trust it to show you anything when you are out of service.

The Google Maps app can download offline maps even on the phone you have now, or you can try one of the other apps like Gaia, Scenic or others for more complete offline map downloads.

Let me know if you need more help.

Opus


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Landofopus

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Aug 16, 2020, 3:48:14 PM8/16/20
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Also, the iPhone 6S does have a dedicated GPS chip. Assisted GPS means that it can also use cell towers not just the satellites. My iPhone XS Max works the same way.

Peter Ludemann

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Aug 16, 2020, 4:27:32 PM8/16/20
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The GPS computations can be done more quickly if they're given an estimate of the current location -- one way of getting that estimate is to use location information from cell towers. Without this, it can take longer for the computations to stabilize and determine the location (if you leave the device on, of course, it doesn't have to start the computations from scratch). In theory, devices manufactured since 2018 can be higher accuracy but older devices should still have 5m accuracy; I don't think that newer devices can be much faster in doing the location computations.

You're not likely to get very accurate positioning information from just cell tower signals (perhaps accurate to a few hundred meters), so I'd be surprised if your iPhone is lacking a GPS receiver, assuming you've got GPS turned on.

I don't have an Apple phone; but for Android, Google Maps has an option to pre-load maps for areas with poor cell signal coverage (it'll also do routing without a cell signal). Perhaps Apple Maps has this feature; or you could try installing Google Maps to see if it has a pre-load feature.

There are times when the GPS calculations can be wildly wrong, due to interference with the GPS signal. I've mostly noticed this in dense urban locations (Tokyo was especially bad, with tall buildings and narrow roads), but I was once on the ocean and the boat's GPS (a Garmin) showed the location as being about a mile from where we were - I presume something interesting was happening in the ionosphere at the time.

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Peter White

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Aug 16, 2020, 4:44:38 PM8/16/20
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My iPhone 6S definitely does not have GPS. When I have no bars, I have no location. And there is no setting for turning GPS on or off.

PJW

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Peter White

Robert Tilley

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Aug 16, 2020, 4:50:56 PM8/16/20
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Landofopus

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Aug 16, 2020, 4:58:05 PM8/16/20
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somervillebikes

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Aug 16, 2020, 7:15:30 PM8/16/20
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Hi Peter,

I've used older iPhones all the way back to the 5 to track my location offline using off-line apps, as others have mentioned. You have to specifically allow location services for the app you are using. I've used maps.me and also ridewithgps. Both offer you the option of downloading regional maps to the phone. Then when the phone is out of cellular range, it relies on GPS alone to track your position on the map. It doesn't work quite as well as when there is cellular service, since the phones use cell tower pinging and triangulation to better pinpoint your location. But, offline apps are what you're looking for, and I'm almost certain any iPhone as old as the 5 will work.

Anton


On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 4:44:38 PM UTC-4, Peter White wrote:
My iPhone 6S definitely does not have GPS. When I have no bars, I have no location. And there is no setting for turning GPS on or off.

PJW

On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 4:27 PM Peter Ludemann <peter....@gmail.com> wrote:
The GPS computations can be done more quickly if they're given an estimate of the current location -- one way of getting that estimate is to use location information from cell towers. Without this, it can take longer for the computations to stabilize and determine the location (if you leave the device on, of course, it doesn't have to start the computations from scratch). In theory, devices manufactured since 2018 can be higher accuracy but older devices should still have 5m accuracy; I don't think that newer devices can be much faster in doing the location computations.

You're not likely to get very accurate positioning information from just cell tower signals (perhaps accurate to a few hundred meters), so I'd be surprised if your iPhone is lacking a GPS receiver, assuming you've got GPS turned on.

I don't have an Apple phone; but for Android, Google Maps has an option to pre-load maps for areas with poor cell signal coverage (it'll also do routing without a cell signal). Perhaps Apple Maps has this feature; or you could try installing Google Maps to see if it has a pre-load feature.

There are times when the GPS calculations can be wildly wrong, due to interference with the GPS signal. I've mostly noticed this in dense urban locations (Tokyo was especially bad, with tall buildings and narrow roads), but I was once on the ocean and the boat's GPS (a Garmin) showed the location as being about a mile from where we were - I presume something interesting was happening in the ionosphere at the time.

On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 at 12:26, Peter White <peter...@gmail.com> wrote:
When I'm out exploring the small back roads and racing the black flies, my Garmin does a rather poor job of showing the roads in the area. Apple Maps gives me a far better map than what the Garmin has. But at least half of New Hampshire is out of cell tower range, so often I can't tell where I am. My iPhone 6S is about 4 years old and has something called GPS assist, which just works with the cell towers. The new iPhones all claim to have true GPS, but I'm getting conflicting information from various vendors.

Anyone know whether the iPhone SE actually tracks the satellites? In other words, if you have no signal bars on the phone, if in other words you can't possibly make a telephone call, can you still see your location on the mapping software?

Thanks,

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Peter White

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Peter White

Peter White

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Aug 17, 2020, 7:02:12 AM8/17/20
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Hi Anton,

I have had Location Services turned ON for both Apple Maps and Google Maps all along.

PJW

Lefebeaver

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Aug 17, 2020, 11:52:01 AM8/17/20
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My Iphone SE (older generation) tracks satellites just fine in areas with no cell coverage. I use it in my remote field research in the Amazon, which is totally off the grid. It doesn't work when in airplane mode however. It seems to me that your problem is not GPS coverage, but data coverage to keep your map refreshed. For Google you can cache maps of large areas by doing this: https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6291838?co=GENIE.Platform%3DiOS&hl=en

I have used this while cycling in Europe with no data coverage, and also on boats offshore to locate dive sites. It works quite well; the only limitation is the size of the area you can cache, given memory limitations on your phone and the size of your area. But for a day's cycling it's always worked for me; then I get internet access that evening and load up the next day's maps.

Peter White

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Aug 18, 2020, 9:43:44 AM8/18/20
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I downloaded maps.me from the app store and rode the back roads to Hancock NH where there are many spots with no cell reception. The maps.me map of the area was accurate and would respond instantly to changes in my direction. So the solution was to have offline maps in my telephone. So my iPhone 6S does indeed have a true GPS function.
Thanks to Steve Sweedler for the tip.

PJW

Peter White

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Aug 18, 2020, 9:48:50 AM8/18/20
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Duh, not Hancock. I was riding in Bradford.
Just want to keep the record straight. ;-)
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Peter White

Brian Ogilvie

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Aug 18, 2020, 10:03:39 AM8/18/20
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I use my iPhone 6s for GPS when I'm out of range of cell service. As I mentioned on the iBOB thread, I use the "HERE WeGo" app, originally from Nokia, in offline mode, and the "Topo Maps" app to download USGS topo maps with OpenStreetMap trails overlaid on them. Both are free.

On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 7:15 PM somervillebikes <atu...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Peter,

I've used older iPhones all the way back to the 5 to track my location offline using off-line apps, as others have mentioned. You have to specifically allow location services for the app you are using. I've used maps.me and also ridewithgps. Both offer you the option of downloading regional maps to the phone. Then when the phone is out of cellular range, it relies on GPS alone to track your position on the map. It doesn't work quite as well as when there is cellular service, since the phones use cell tower pinging and triangulation to better pinpoint your location. But, offline apps are what you're looking for, and I'm almost certain any iPhone as old as the 5 will work.

Anton

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somervillebikes

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Aug 18, 2020, 11:13:20 AM8/18/20
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That's good to hear. I also think google maps has introduced a new feature for downloading offline maps. Not sure how well they compare with maps.me...

Anton

nhdude

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Aug 19, 2020, 1:28:31 PM8/19/20
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I use the Komoot app which also uses offline mapping.  Turn-by-turn navigation is great when riding unfamiliar areas.

satanas

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Oct 30, 2020, 5:05:47 AM10/30/20
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I tried maps.me on Android in Spain last year after a local recommended it. Nothing, didn't work at all, even in Barcelona with cell coverage as well as GPS.

Google maps has it's foibles but you can download maps for large areas easily and they're then accessible offline with no cell reception or bars needed. Since cell coverage broke irreparably every time I crossed a border this was extremely useful! YMMV.

Later,
Stephen

Kurt Nordback

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Oct 30, 2020, 11:36:21 PM10/30/20
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I've used OSMAnd for years on my older Android phone. It's built on the Open Street Map data, which I find to be pretty good. It also allows downloading topo and Wikipedia layers. And it does offline routing. It's not as good as Google routing, at least for bike directions, but it's still very handy.

When I'm touring, I leave the phone mostly in airplane mode to preserve battery, and because cellular coverage tends to be spotty anyway where I want to be riding. The GPS still works in airplane mode, at least on my phone.

The main downside to OSMAnd is that the user interface is pretty complicated and took me, at least, a while to learn.

-- Kurt
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