extra harassment this week?

[Mark Ortiz]

Anybody here noticing a big increase in harassment on the road this week?

 

Anybody know of any anti-bicyclist hate radio/media activity this week?

 

 

Mark Ortiz

[Trevor Bourget]

I think it's just you, Mark.

But you could add a comment to BikeSnob's AntiVelo and ask him to write another one.

-- trevor

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[Mark Ortiz]

That’s from 2009, and frankly so off the wall I don’t think it warrants a serious response.  I will say that in over fifty years of cycling, no motorcyclist has given me a moment’s trouble, ever.

 

Just me?  Maybe just where I am, but I’m not doing anything different this week.

 

 

Mark Ortiz

[Tricia Kovacs]

I have not in Cleveland or Columbus. There was the usual harassing blasting of the horn in Cleveland as I controlled a lane, but nothing out of the ordinary.
Tricia Kovacs

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[beck michaels]

It's called 

"Spring," Mark.

 as riders retake to the roadways, motorists unaccustomed all winter to cyclists are thrown into fits and tizzies once bike traffic makes its seasonal return to the roadways.

I've seen it happen in cities across the country, and in cities with large US cycling populations, mention of this seasonal flocking is mentioned in the newspapers and television stations usually run a (not always objective) piece on bike traffic returning to the roads.

 like the swallows returning to Capistrano, but with less fanfare, more derision and horn honking.

Beck

[Serge Issakov]

Definitely no on both counts.

Serge 

[Trevor Bourget]

I couldn't find any bad news for you, Mark. I can tell you I lane split with my bicycle in the lane position where motorcyclists also want to be, and I've never gotten any grief from them.

If you really want some downer, here's the best I can come up with. Spare the road is a twit with a permanent chip-seal on his shoulder.

Anyway, just ignore it. "Traffic expert" Tom Stafford has the theory that it's just because they're jealous: "evolution has built into the human mind a hatred of free-riders and cheaters, which activates anger when we confront people acting like this – and it is this anger which prompts altruistic punishment. In this way, the emotion is evolution's way of getting us to overcome our short-term self-interest and encourage collective social life.".

-- trevor

On Mar 16, 2013, at 9:12 PM, Mark Ortiz <markor...@windstream.net> wrote:

That’s from 2009, and frankly so off the wall I don’t think it warrants a serious response.  I will say that in over fifty years of cycling, no motorcyclist has given me a moment’s trouble, ever.

 

Just me?  Maybe just where I am, but I’m not doing anything different this week.

 

 

Mark Ortiz

 

[Mark Ortiz]

No bad news personally for you, Trevor: good.  I’m interested in hearing that.  I know I’m not imagining what I’m experiencing, but if it’s not happening to some people that’s useful information too.  I helps me see, to some degree anyway, where it is and isn’t happening at a particular time.

 

Just ignore it?  I used to.  Not anymore.  If it were actually limited to verbal harassment, and was purely the isolated actions of separate individuals, we could ignore it, but it’s not.  There is evidence of linkage among the incidents, and some of these people are escalating to assault, including ramming cyclists.

 

I really appreciate the tip about the blog.  That’s important information.  I see this guy’s been at it since May 2011, and is based in Georgia.  That’s the first US-based effort of its kind that I’ve seen.  The only other web-based incitement I’ve found has been a forum based in Australia.  There was some US-related traffic on it, but it wasn’t based here.

 

 

Mark Ortiz

[Dan Fazzini Jr.]

Funny you should say that.  I was intentionally buzzed 2x this week for my first 2 days commuting this year.  One was a failed straddle pass at 45mph, the other was a 8' wide vehicle trying to fit into what was 6' of space left with my lane control.  He didn't succeed and nearly hit the bike.  Surprisingly I was able to get the LEA to cite him thanks to rear video which I just installed on that bike for the first time that day!

Spring is in the air, and in colder climates that means that motorists need to get use to sharing the road again, which isn't given up lightly.

[Jack Warman]

Hi Mark,

>> There is evidence of linkage among the incidents <<

What is the evidence?

And apols if you've cited it and I missed it.

Thanks
Jack

[Mark Ortiz]

My contention is that it cannot be accidental that so many people use the same yells, slogans, and talking points, and that there is so much clustering of the events with respect to time and location.  That is circumstantial evidence, for the most part, but that’s still evidence.

 

I posted all my spreadsheets back through 2009 on Chainguard.  If people here want, I can put them up here too.

 

Exactly what the nature of the linkage is, I do not claim to know.  I am trying to find out.  My purpose here is to find out as much as I can about the patterns (or lack of, as the case may be) in the events and related information, and see what I can figure out.

 

 

Mark Ortiz

[Serge Issakov]

The "common linkage" seems obvious to me.  It's a combination of widespread beliefs such as these:

1) It's at least rude if not morally wrong to delay others unnecessarily.

2) Bicyclists riding "correctly" would not delay others.

3) Bicyclists riding "correctly" are in "the bike lane" (loosely understood to be edge space on the roadway)

4) Bicyclists riding outside of "the bike lane" are endangering themselves.

5) Bicyclists almost never obey the rules of the road.

Therefore, any bicyclist causing others delay by riding outside of "the bike lane" is at least rude if not morally wrong and suicidal, and therefore teaching the bicyclist, by honking, yelling, screaming, buzz passing, maybe even hitting them, is morally justified.

Serge

--

[Serge Issakov]

I want to add: the fact that aggressors tend to use similar language is probably just an artifact due to people like that having similarly limited lexicons.

Serge

[Mark Ortiz]

Nope.  Doesn’t wash.

 

“Get off the road” is not just an artifact due to people like that having similarly limited lexicons.  It is the slogan of a movement.  I never heard it until 1996.  I have heard it numerous times since.  Not “similar language” – the exact same four words, again and again.  If anybody who spends serious time on a bicycle in the United States has not had this experience, I want to know where they’re riding.

 

The first time I heard “Get off the road”, I couldn’t believe my ears.  I was 47, had been cycling all my life, and had never heard something so outrageous.  “Who does that guy think he is?” I wondered.  “Doesn’t he know it’s a public road?  Hasn’t he seen bicyclists all his life?”  Then I heard it again, and again, and again.

 

This is not accidental.  These people aren’t just anxious because they fear you might be unpredictable.  They don’t care whether you like to stay two feet from the fog line, or six.  They don’t care whether you are a vehicularist or a gutter bunny.  They don’t care if you oppose the bike lane racket, accept it conditionally, love it, or make your living from it.  They want exactly what their slogan/yell says: you, off the road.  Off any part of the road.  Gone.  Completely.

 

To ignore or deny this is to live with your head in the sand.

 

 

Mark Ortiz

 

From: Serge Issakov [mailto:serge....@gmail.com]

Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 2:56 PM
To: Mark Ortiz

[David Spranger]

No more than usual. I generally see more issues with drivers during the six weeks or so before Christmas. Of course, this seems true even if I am driving. Lately, my biggest issue is with school bus drivers and, to a lesser extent, city bus drivers.

David

Charlotte, NC

[Bruce Kulik]

Mark,

 

What you are referring to is called a "meme".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme

 

It's not really clear where these ideas come from, or why they collect momentum. Sometimes it seems like certain economic/political/social/power groups have a good handle on controlling and spreading these ideas.  Advertising, press releases, books, social media, etc. It would be great if we could somehow spread the meme that bicyclists are good traffic, and should be respected and encouraged.  I have no clue about how to go about this in an organized way.

 

Certainly the techniques employed by members of this group and similar ones seem to have little impact, except for the occasional technical victory when we find that a proposed road treatment violates a bona fide standard, and we can find someone in authority to agree.  The one meme that seems to have somewhat of an impact is the so-called "safety in numbers" meme, where some critical mass of cyclists raises awareness and acceptance of cyclists as legitimate traffic.  Of course, as we know, this then becomes pseudo-science with fancy by meaningless graphs and equations, and the secondary meme of "we must build more infrastructure to increase the numbers to make us even safer".

 

I really wish we had the magic bullet that would let us change these anti-cycling memes.  I find it discouraging at times.

 

Bruce

----- Original Message -----

From: Mark Ortiz

To: 'Serge Issakov'

Cc: bicycle...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 12:39 AM

Subject: RE: [BicycleDriving] extra harassment this week?

[Robert Cooper]

----- Bruce Kulik <......@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

   [...]| I really wish we had the magic bullet

   that would let us change these anti-cycling
   memes.  I find it discouraging at times.

Bruce, et al,

I believe that the most powerful tool that we have at our disposal is our own, personal, day-to-day behavior in the street.

It has the advantage of being entirely within our control. We don’t need to ask for institutional support.

It is a slow process, but there is no wasted effort, therefore, it is quite efficient.

Bob Cooper
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robert-cooper-cycling/

[Bob Sutterfield]

On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 7:16 AM, Robert Cooper <robert...@frontiernet.net> wrote:

----- Bruce Kulik <......@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
   [...]| I really wish we had the magic bullet that would let us change these anti-cycling memes.  I find it discouraging at times.

I believe that the most powerful tool that we have at our disposal is our own, personal, day-to-day behavior in the street.
It has the advantage of being entirely within our control. We don’t need to ask for institutional support.

Exactly!

http://iamtraffic.org/2013/03/the-stories-we-tell-part-one/ 

[Mark Ortiz]

I don’t mind discussions of theories and beliefs, and am quite willing to offer my own.

 

However, what has struck me about this thread on this list so far is how much people have written about their own theories and beliefs, and how few actual answers have been offered to the simple question I posed: did you yourself experience an increase in hostile acts in your riding this past week, or not?  I have a strong suspicion that many of you can’t answer because you weren’t out there at all.

 

Y’all bicyclists, or keyboard drivers?

 

 

Mark Ortiz

[Michael Plakus]

Well if you phrase it that way....

I haven't seen an increase in hostile acts...aggressive yes, hostile no.  Both were committed around car operators.  The first around midweek last week was a car operator who has moved out to the turning lane on Lake Brandt Rd in Greensboro to go around me.  That operator stayed in the turning lane until she (I think--early morning lighting) had passed the car that was in front of me.  The second was this past weekend, a motorcyclist passed me in my car doing 34-35 in a 35 zone on Air Harbor Rd--a road with no passing zones or turning lanes and a double yellow its full length.

Now the motorist I think I've seen before--She has a habit of such passes, at some point I'll catch her tags and maybe get her re-educated.  Darwin will take of the motorcyclist--his pass was approaching a ridge line on a corner.

Michael Plakus
http://bikegso.org

--

[Mark Ortiz]

Okay, you’re excused for weather.  Sounds like you’re an actual yooper.  I’m from Wisconsin myself, 1954-1973 and 1992-1999.  Do you shovel your walk, or put plywood on top of the snow?  Do you shovel your roof?

 

Are you on a trike yourself?  What kind of studded tires are you using?

 

 

No doubt some others here aren’t riding much, due to winter.  Y’all are excused too.  I don’t mean to kvetch unduly.  I just feel the ratio of “expert opinion” to actual measurement here looks pretty lopsided.

 

 

Mark Ortiz

 

From: beck michaels [mailto:yoope...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:06 AM
To: Mark Ortiz; 'BicycleDriving'; Serge Issakov
Subject: Re: [BicycleDriving] extra harassment this week?

 

I ride every day except on occasional rest days, Mark, but where i live i'm still running studded tires and there's snow six feet deep next to my driveway. I last got harassed in the summer last.

 

But i remember spring in the big cities of the temperate zone. lots of spring uptake of riders, more conflicts spilling over to increased incidences of both motorists complaints to media and harrassment reports/experience.

 

 i do think riders of wider HPVs have a greater likelyhood of experiencing harassment than riders on diamond frame bikes making equivalent safe positioning decisions. Simple matter of width. Not saying it should be that way, but that's how the public rolls as far as i can tell when riding in groups.

 

 Beck

 

LCI

 

 

---

From: Mark Ortiz <markor...@windstream.net>
To: 'BicycleDriving' <bicycle...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 2:43 AM
Subject: RE: [BicycleDriving] extra harassment this week?

 

I don’t mind discussions of theories and beliefs, and am quite willing to offer my own.

--

[Mark Ortiz]

That’s what I’m looking for.  Thank you.  The fact that you’re in Greensboro (60-70 miles from me) is especially useful.

 

Note that I’m not looking for “yes” answers to my question – just responses based on actual observation, from people who are out on the road enough to have meaningful observations.

 

What you’re reporting here is not what I would consider or log as hostility.  It’s just bad driving.

 

 

Mark Ortiz

[Willie Hunt]

I've been riding plenty; about 500 miles this month so far.  I have not noticed anything different than normal.  I rode completely in Orange County, CA the last 2 weeks.

Willie

[Frank Krygowski]

OK, I'll answer. Nope, I've not noticed any extra hostile acts
lately. Weather's been pretty crappy, so my riding has been just
short distance utility stuff. But tonight, riding at night with the
snow coming down, controlling the narrow lane through the center of
the village with cars behind me, no complaints. Riding to and from
the grocery store this afternoon, ditto.

(Snowflakes look nice in a bike's headlight beam.)

- Frank Krygowski

[Mark Ortiz]

Finally got around to reading that article.  I recommend it to anybody here who hasn’t checked it out yet.

 

I’d heard the word “meme” before, but never really investigated what it meant.  Actually, it has an extremely broad meaning: any cultural entity that an observer might consider a replicator … a unit of cultural transmission, or a unit of imitation and replication.

 

So “Get off the road” is a meme, but that doesn’t tell us much.  In particular, it doesn’t tell us what sort of effort is or isn’t behind it.  Some memes are viral, or spread on their own.  Some are carefully crafted artifacts of highly organized movements, propaganda campaigns, or advertising efforts.  The study of memes is called memetics.  When we discuss whether to speak of “bicycle driving” or “vehicular cycling”, that’s a discussion of memetics.

 

The use of arches in construction is a meme.  The idea of the bicycle itself is a meme.

 

A meme that is consciously crafted and promoted is sometimes called a proselytic meme.  Also from the article:

Aaron Lynch described seven general patterns of meme transmission, or "thought contagion":^[17]

1. Quantity of parenthood: an idea that influences the number of children one has. Children respond particularly receptively to the ideas of their parents, and thus ideas that directly or indirectly encourage a higher birthrate will replicate themselves at a higher rate than those that discourage higher birthrates.
2. Efficiency of parenthood: an idea that increases the proportion of children who will adopt ideas of their parents. Cultural separatism exemplifies one practice in which one can expect a higher rate of meme-replication—because the meme for separation creates a barrier from exposure to competing ideas.
3. Proselytic: ideas generally passed to others beyond one's own children. Ideas that encourage the proselytism of a meme, as seen in many religious or political movements, can replicate memes horizontally through a given generation, spreading more rapidly than parent-to-child meme-transmissions do.
4. Preservational: ideas that influence those that hold them to continue to hold them for a long time. Ideas that encourage longevity in their hosts, or leave their hosts particularly resistant to abandoning or replacing these ideas, enhance the preservability of memes and afford protection from the competition or proselytism of other memes.
5. Adversative: ideas that influence those that hold them to attack or sabotage competing ideas and/or those that hold them. Adversative replication can give an advantage in meme transmission when the meme itself encourages aggression against other memes.
6. Cognitive: ideas perceived as cogent by most in the population who encounter them. Cognitively transmitted memes depend heavily on a cluster of other ideas and cognitive traits already widely held in the population, and thus usually spread more passively than other forms of meme transmission. Memes spread in cognitive transmission do not count as self-replicating.
7. Motivational: ideas that people adopt because they perceive some self-interest in adopting them. Strictly speaking, motivationally transmitted memes do not self-propagate, but this mode of transmission often occurs in association with memes self-replicated in the efficiency parental, proselytic and preservational modes.

I am contending that “Get off the road” is a proselytic meme, that probably has gone viral to some extent by now, but probably didn’t originate that way.  “Gimme a break” would be a non-proselytic meme.  It’s a speech pattern that is purely informally transmitted, and isn’t the artifact of an organized effort of any kind, far as I can tell.  We’ve all heard it in the course of normal social interaction.

 

“Get off the road” is different.  Sure, there’s nothing exotic about the vocabulary, but it’s not something you’re likely to hear in normal conversation.  In fact, it would logically require considerable persuasion to convince a person to do something so outrageous as to order another citizen not to use a public facility in a well-established manner.  That’s not just a figure of speech that one innocently picks up.  Saying something like that is a flagrant breach of basic civility.  Somebody has to convince you that it’s acceptable to do that.

 

 

Mark Ortiz

--

[Trevor Bourget]

thanks for your nice synopsis of memetics, mark. unfortunately i suspect vehicular cycling to be cognitive, while cycle tracks are adversative.

i don't know if you were merely hungry for more credible support that you are having a brief bout with cyclist influriority, or if you went to defensive attack mode because that is the hypothesis. i am cycling about 100mpw right now and i would say treatment by motorists is not detectably different in the last ten years. if anything i would say i feel better, but i would doubt the separability from my growing immunity to over reaction.

get off the road, get on the sidewalk, you're not a car are instances of a broad social meme of culture protection by clans who ostracize outsiders who don't fit the profile. cycle racing clubs mock "freds" who pretend the part with gear but have no skills or palmares to back it up.

one way to attack the meme is to change the profile criteria. a few years ago a motorist noticed how adeptly i merged into through lane, obviously enabling several following drivers to make unobstructed right turn. he had his window down so he remarked i deserve a license for "that thing".

i have suggested several times, with no infection yet, that vehicular cyclists should volunteer to have govt recognized skills based licensing like MSF program has for motorcyclists, and mount registration plates/sticker. there might be min age req (forester has suggested age 10 could understand it).

those who act like they deserve respect tend to be given it.

-- trevor

[beck michaels]

Marks right. "Get off the road" is a commonly shouted slogan at bicyclists here in the USA.  Probably not in France or Italy, but perhaps even there the road memes are shifting. but i doubt it.

 How literate and varied can we expect a message to "get off the road" shouted out of car windows will be?  The lexicon shouted out of car windows in my vicinity are really limited in scope and variety. "get off the road" is far and away the predominate one i hear.

Perhaps the slogan had a origin, perhaps it was in a movie.  No matter. it reflects our commonly shared cultural values of motorist entitlement. A chain of cinematic influences romanticizing drivers operating badly exists, stretching from "They Drive by Night- Rebel without a Cause -Easy Rider -American Graffiti-Blues Brothers-Thelma and Louise-Wild at Heart -Fast and the Furious " unbroken thru the decades. 

A mythic freedom of the american road and the empowerment of the american driver as master of their domain is pretty ingrained in popular culture.

 Combine these  base cultural influences with all the modern cultural pressures like traffic congestion, a fast paced world, and any delay upsetting ones' sense of immediate gratification, and the result will be motorists yelling a limited variety of slogans indicating bicyclists need to "get off the road."

In my mind, something happened between the oil crisis and bikecentennial and now, to cause americans to forget the 20th century's second rise to prominence of the bicycle in the 1970s and 80s. The problem doesn't stem from bicycle infrastructure, or an equation in drivers' minds that the edge of the road=a bike lane.

Since bike lanes, and well designed bike facilities in particular, smooth passing and can mitigate intersection conflicts, a rider in a well engineered bicycle facility experiences less conflict with motorists all the while still using the road in a predictable and vehicular manner, sharing the right of way as a slower and narrow vehicle not needing to control 16,17 feet of pavement width.

I do believe that a recumbent trike, partially using or avoiding a AASHTO minimum bike lane or sharing an unmodified roadway with sub 14foot lanes would experience more harassment from motorists than a bicyclist on a diamond frame bike making safe road positioning decisions along the same route.

My thoughts on some of the roots of bicyclist harassment being described by Mark.

Mike Beck,

LCI

---

From: Mark Ortiz <markor...@windstream.net>

To: 'Serge Issakov' <serge....@gmail.com>

Cc: bicycle...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 12:39 AM

Subject: RE: [BicycleDriving] extra harassment this week?

[beck michaels]

I ride every day except on occasional rest days, Mark, but where i live i'm still running studded tires and there's snow six feet deep next to my driveway. I last got harassed in the summer last.

But i remember spring in the big cities of the temperate zone. lots of spring uptake of riders, more conflicts spilling over to increased incidences of both motorists complaints to media and harrassment reports/experience.

 i do think riders of wider HPVs have a greater likelyhood of experiencing harassment than riders on diamond frame bikes making equivalent safe positioning decisions. Simple matter of width. Not saying it should be that way, but that's how the public rolls as far as i can tell when riding in groups.

 Beck

LCI

---

From: Mark Ortiz <markor...@windstream.net>

To: 'BicycleDriving' <bicycle...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 2:43 AM

Subject: RE: [BicycleDriving] extra harassment this week?

[Willie Hunt]

Actually, most trike riders find that they get less harassment on their trikes than upright bikes.  Most velomobiles rider say they receive even less.  I have too little trike road time to say one way of the other.  However, I have 10,788 miles on my Quest velo as of this morning and I cannot ever say I've been harassed by a motorist, whereas I have many times on my "stick" bents and upright bikes.   

Width seems to have little to nothing to do with it.  It's motorist's perception of the user.  In the Velo, I'm treated like another car, and on any bike, I'm treated like a cyclist.  But when I'm in a bike lane in my velo, then I get treated badly! :(

Willie

[Bruce Kulik]

I'm just musing here:

I think a certain amount of hostility comes from the combination of poor economy, rising gas prices, and a growing awareness of
climate issues attributed to the use of fossil fuels, including the use/overuse of private automobiles in a frivolous/needless
manner. People driving their automobiles might feel one of several guilt reactions that trigger negative emotions toward bicycle
traffic they encounter.

1. This guy/gal on a bike is implicitly telling me I am wrong by using a bicyle, instead of validating my use of an automobile.
2. Why does he/she get to use a bike when I'm a) in a hurry b) have to go too far [a few miles] c) it's too cold/warm/raining, etc.
3. I'd like to save money, but it's just not cool to ride a bike everywhere.

To some extent, it subconciously pisses them off that they can't do the same thing, and it manifests as hostility rather than
admiration.


I'm just observing here:

When the road or lane is sufficiently wide, it just doesn't matter whether there is a bike lane or not. I can safely ride to the
right, and traffic can overtake with little disruption.

If the road is not sufficiently wide, I must travel further to the left to indicate to overtaking traffic that they will need to do
something just a little different than normal to safely overtake. That could be slowing down and waiting, or it could be moving
into the oncoming lane when it is safe to do so.

Almost all the problems occur at intersections, and if I don't properly control other traffic I am setting myself up for disaster.
One rule that motorists seem not to understand is that they need to move to the right side of the lane, including a bike lane if one
exists, before initiating a right turn. IF I DON'T PROPERLY CLAIM THE SPACE as I approach an intersection, regardless of the signal
indication, or whether traffic is stopped, moving slowly, or free to travel at normal speed, I WILL GET RIGHT HOOKED. In the rare
cases that I have stayed within a bike lane that continues all the way to the stop bar or crosswalk at an intersection, cars WILL
pull up to my left, wrongly expecting to make a right turn ahead of me, even though I was the first to the intersection.

Bruce
---------
From: beck michaels
To: Mark Ortiz ; 'Serge Issakov'
Cc: bicycle...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 6:09 AM
Subject: Re: [BicycleDriving] extra harassment this week?

[Serge Issakov]

If anyone is interested in the topic of memes, I highly recommend going to the source, Richard Dawkins' seminal The Selfish Gene, and for many reasons besides the development of the meme concept.  The clarity in his thinking and writing is unparalleled in popular scientific books in my opinion.  It's a joy to read.  Trust me.

I don't see why anything organized is needed to explain the spreading of the "Get off the road" meme.  It, and its variants ("get out of the road!", "get in the bike lane!", "get on the sidewalk!", etc.) are naturally used in many contexts besides motorists addressing bicyclists.  Parents admonish their children with it, for example.  Who hasn't heard motorists yell it to other motorists who they deem as unfit drivers?  

In the late 1970s I knew someone in Leningrad (now St. Petersburg) who yelled "zaraznaya sabaka!" ("diseased dog") at people in his way when he was driving.  Different words; same message.

As noted in a recent blog article, the rules of the road are a moral system: there is "right" and "wrong" behavior.  So, it brings out tribal instinct reaction when people are perceived to be in violation of the moral code.  That, to me, is a much better explanation of why people react so strongly when they feel others are doing something "wrong" in the roadway (like riding a bike in their way - "wrong" in their view), and the words they choose to express their self-righteous indignation, like "get out of the road!".

Serge

[Bruce Kulik]

Interesting view point you paraphrased from the unreferenced blog. I
always thought of the rules of the road as a formal language, with
precise syntax and semantics. The only ambiguity I see in the rules has
to do with timing -- did I get there first from the left and expect the
other traffic to yield, or did we arrive simultaneously and I have to
yield to traffic on the right.

A moral code is learned by experience and feedback, but rules of the
road are codified and spelled out. If people misinterpret the rules of
the road as a moral system, that could explain some of the reactions,
but I think it is a wrong interpretation.

The code for overtaking slower moving traffic is precisely spelled out.
Slow your speed, if necessary, and wait until there is sufficient
space and sight distance, and then overtake at a prudent speed and distance.

It is only a mistaken belief that morals are involved the allows for
inappropriate behavior by overtaking traffic.

Bruce

[Mark Ortiz]

Actually, I have never heard a motorist yell “Get off the road” at another motorist.  I also never had it yelled at me until 1996.  I can still remember the first time.  I already had well over 60,000 lifetime bicycle miles at that point.

 

The mid-‘90’s were when satellite radio came in.  There was incitement to hate activity against bicyclists on satellite radio.  It was bad enough to lead the LAB to sue Clear Channel over it.  As I recall, the LAB won either a judgement or a significant settlement.

 

I practically never see motorists yell anything at other motorists.  For the most part, they can’t hear each other anyway.

 

I can’t recall the last time I heard a parent yell “Get off the road” at a child either.  I can’t recall the last time I saw a child on foot near a road.  The only kids I see near roads these days are either salmoning at night on BMX bikes with no lights, or being driven someplace by mommy in the car.

 

I have personally heard “Get out of the road” once or twice; “Get off the [expletive] road” occasionally; “Get on the sidewalk” never; “Get in the bike lane” never (thankfully, where I live there hardly ever is a bike lane).

 

I have also personally never heard “You’re not a car”.  I wouldn’t know anybody ever said that if it weren’t for the internet.  Maybe if we get more bike lanes here I’ll start hearing that.

 

I always got a bit of harassment on the road.  But until 1996, all the harassment I received was clearly individual: people used their own words; you didn’t hear the same slogan again and again.  Something changed circa 1996.

 

Look again at that sparetheroad.com blog.  This guy isn’t just an annoyed individual.  He is spending tons of time campaigning to actually get bicyclists removed from the roads, either by legislation or by intimidation, or whatever means can be brought to bear.  He is a sophisticated hatemonger.  He is articulate.  He can spell.  He understands the limits of protected speech.  He takes care not to advocate violence outright, but spends great effort to persuade his readers that cyclists are “scum”.  He knows a percentage of them will act on the emotion without his having to tell them specifically what to do, and his butt will be covered.

 

This didn’t just come out of nowhere.  This is the tip of a much bigger iceberg. 

 

 

Mark Ortiz

 

From: Serge Issakov [mailto:serge....@gmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 7:22 PM
To: Mark Ortiz

[Tricia Kovacs]

There is an interesting study I read called "Drivers' perceptions of cyclists", which was written for the Department for Transport, Great Britain, 2002. The study was recommended to me by Rod Rudinger, another member of this forum. The study performed a survey of motorists, both drivers of passenger cars and professional drivers. A lot of the observations in the study were things that I had perceived, but it was interesting to see it actually stated in a report. For example, drivers felt that cyclists who control the lane were "lane hogs", while "wobbly" cyclists were considered inexperienced and deserved more leeway, even though both types of cyclists required the motorist to wait until it was safe to pass. My husband figured this out and he practices what he calls the "strategic wobble". Other observations:

• the larger the vehicle, the more respect it received from other road users
• courteous behavior encouraged courteous behavior (I call this "paying it forward")
• cyclists with the "proper kit" (helmet, lights, mirror) were expected to behave responsibly
• bikeway facilities that are not used by cyclists fuel resentment that cyclists "get all this special treatment and then don't use them", Advanced Stop Lines (bike boxes) encourage/permit cyclists to slow down traffic and cause delay, frustration, resentment.
• professional drivers were the most negative towards cyclists (I don't like to stereotype, but the electricians, plumbers, building contractors, UPS/FedEx drivers, etc seem to be the most hostile to me)
• motorists see cyclists as an "out group" and therefore tend to overly criticize cyclists while exonerating errors made by motorists (the "in group")
• motorists may not be unduly negative towards cyclists, but are concerned about the "social norm" governing road use, not slowing down (inconveniencing) following traffic

This last observation was really interesting to me. I understood it to mean that motorists might not be as concerned about being slowed down themselves, but are concerned that they, in turn, are slowing down other traffic when they encounter a slower moving vehicle like a bicycle.

Anyway, the study is worth a read, if you have some free time.
http://www.southamptontriclub.co.uk/storage/TRL549.pdf

I will try to find time to read Serge's recommended book, too.
My reaction to swearing on the road is to give the offender the peace sign - the sign that I'm a member of another "out group", a hippie.
I have decided to take Trevor's advice and ignore the "Spare the Road twit".
Ignoring twits keeps my blood pressure down.
Tricia Kovacs

On 3/21/2013 7:22 PM, Serge Issakov wrote:

If anyone is interested in the topic of memes, I highly recommend going to the source, Richard Dawkins' seminal The Selfish Gene, and for many reasons besides the development of the meme�concept. �The clarity in his thinking and writing is unparalleled in popular scientific books in my opinion. �It's a joy to read. �Trust me.

I don't see why anything organized is needed to explain the spreading of the "Get off the road" meme. �It, and its variants ("get out of the road!", "get in the bike lane!", "get on the sidewalk!", etc.) are naturally used in many contexts besides motorists addressing bicyclists. �Parents admonish their children with it, for example. �Who hasn't heard motorists yell it to other motorists who they deem as unfit drivers? �

In the late 1970s I knew someone in Leningrad (now St. Petersburg) who yelled "zaraznaya sabaka!" ("diseased dog") at people in his way when he was driving. �Different words; same message.

As noted in a recent blog article, the rules of the road are a moral system: there is "right" and "wrong" behavior. �So, it brings out tribal instinct reaction when people are perceived to be in violation of the moral code. �That, to me, is a much better explanation of why people react so strongly when they feel others are doing something "wrong" in the roadway (like riding a bike in their way - "wrong" in their view), and the words they choose to express their self-righteous indignation, like "get out of the road!".

Serge

[Serge Issakov]

Just posted by Mighk Wilson on Facebook, who lives in Orlando:

"Helpful advice and a compliment from a motorist this morning. "Hey Kid, there's a perfectly good sidewalk over there." Callin' me a kid; how sweet! And he couldn't have been more than 20 himself..."

Another variation...

By the way, I've heard, and others have reported, "get in the bike lane" on roads without bike lanes.  

In fact, I suggest the development of the bike lane is largely responsible for creating the expectation that bicyclists should be out of the way/not in "the road" ( where "the road" is the part of the roadway needed by motorists).  

Serge

Sent from my iPhone

[Trevor Bourget]

"smile and wave" is the best advice.

that's what i'm doing with this thread now.

ride on 

-- trevor

On Friday, March 22, 2013, Tricia Kovacs wrote:

There is an interesting study I read called "Drivers' perceptions of cyclists", which was written for the Department for Transport, Great Britain, 2002. The study was recommended to me by Rod Rudinger, another member of this forum. The study performed a survey of motorists, both drivers of passenger cars and professional drivers. A lot of the observations in the study were things that I had perceived, but it was interesting to see it actually stated in a report. For example, drivers felt that cyclists who control the lane were "lane hogs", while "wobbly" cyclists were considered inexperienced and deserved more leeway, even though both types of cyclists required the motorist to wait until it was safe to pass. My husband figured this out and he practices what he calls the "strategic wobble". Other observations:

• the larger the vehicle, the more respect it received from other road users
• courteous behavior encouraged courteous behavior (I call this "paying it forward")
• cyclists with the "proper kit" (helmet, lights, mirror) were expected to behave responsibly
• bikeway facilities that are not used by cyclists fuel resentment that cyclists "get all this special treatment and then don't use them", Advanced Stop Lines (bike boxes) encourage/permit cyclists to slow down traffic and cause delay, frustration, resentment.
• professional drivers were the most negative towards cyclists (I don't like to stereotype, but the electricians, plumbers, building contractors, UPS/FedEx drivers, etc seem to be the most hostile to me)
• motorists see cyclists as an "out group" and therefore tend to overly criticize cyclists while exonerating errors made by motorists (the "in group")
• motorists may not be unduly negative towards cyclists, but are concerned about the "social norm" governing road use, not slowing down (inconveniencing) following traffic

This last observation was really interesting to me. I understood it to mean that motorists might not be as concerned about being slowed down themselves, but are concerned that they, in turn, are slowing down other traffic when they encounter a slower moving vehicle like a bicycle.

Anyway, the study is worth a read, if you have some free time.
http://www.southamptontriclub.co.uk/storage/TRL549.pdf

I will try to find time to read Serge's recommended book, too.
My reaction to swearing on the road is to give the offender the peace sign - the sign that I'm a member of another "out group", a hippie.
I have decided to take Trevor's advice and ignore the "Spare the Road twit".
Ignoring twits keeps my blood pressure down.
Tricia Kovacs

On 3/21/2013 7:22 PM, Serge Issakov wrote:

If anyone is interested in the topic of memes, I highly recommend going to the source, Richard Dawkins' seminal The Selfish Gene, and for many reasons besides the development of the meme concept.  The clarity in his thinking and writing is unparalleled in popular scientific books in my opinion.  It's a joy to read.  Trust me.

I don't see why anything organized is needed to explain the spreading of the "Get off the road" meme.  It, and its variants ("get out of the road!", "get in the bike lane!", "get on the sidewalk!", etc.) are naturally used in many contexts besides motorists addressing bicyclists.  Parents admonish their children with it, for example.  Who hasn't heard motorists yell it to other motorists who they deem as unfit drivers?  

In the late 1970s I knew someone in Leningrad (now St. Petersburg) who yelled "zaraznaya sabaka!" ("diseased dog") at people in his way when he was driving.  Different words; same message.

As noted in a recent blog article, the rules of the road are a moral system: there is "right" and "wrong" behavior.  So, it brings out tribal instinct reaction when people are perceived to be in violation of the moral code.  That, to me, is a much better explanation of why people react so strongly when they feel others are doing something "wrong" in the roadway (like riding a bike in their way - "wrong" in their view), and the words they choose to express their self-righteous indignation, like "get out of the road!".

Serge

[John Forester]

The rules of the road are stated in formal language, backed up, in some
cases, by explication by courts of appeal rulings.

However, obeying those rules, just like obeying any other law, is
considered a moral act. Just as theft is both a criminal act and an
immoral or unethical act.

--
John Forester, MS, PE
Bicycle Transportation Engineer
7585 Church St. Lemon Grove CA 91945-2306
619-644-5481 fore...@johnforester.com
www.johnforester.com

[John Forester]

I think it suitable to add a bit to my previous message.

While the rules of the road are explicitly stated in statutes, most
people learn them not by rote learning of words but as a code of
behavior, how they should be obeyed. Just as in my previous example of
theft, we all know that stealing is a criminal act, but only the lawyers
among us know the words of the statutes against theft.

[Bruce Kulik]

Yet, the violation of these rules to the detriment of slower traffic
would then also be immoral under that code? Would it not?

bk

[Serge Issakov]

Not everyone operates under the identical moral code, and there are variations in people's perception of the code that is supposed to govern behavior in traffic.   Whether a violation is detrimental to slower traffic or any other particular group should not be a factor in determining whether the act is immoral.  That said some violations, like travel 5 mph over the speed limit, are more acceptable than other behavior, like travel 50 mph over the limit.  

Where perception needs to change, in my view, is acceptance of cyclists in the traffic lane, requiring faster traffic to change lanes or slow, and not seeing that as immoral.  I believe where this needs to change the most is in the minds of bicyclists, because, as most of us know, tolerance of bicyclists acting as drivers, if not acceptance, is markedly higher than most bicyclists imagine.

Serge

[John Forester]

Well written, Serge.

Long ago I started by writing that cyclists should not feel guilty for possibly slowing traffic. That is much the same thought because guilt is the internal feeling when one thinks that one is disobeying a proper rule, and motordom created the social code that cyclists are generally guilty of slowing traffic.

[Bob Shanteau]

On 3/22/2013 6:49 AM, Serge Issakov wrote:

Just posted by Mighk Wilson on Facebook, who lives in Orlando:

Helpful advice and a compliment from a motorist this morning. "Hey Kid, there's a perfectly good sidewalk over there." Callin' me a kid; how sweet! And he couldn't have been more than 20 himself...

Another variation...

By the way, I've heard, and others have reported, "get in the bike lane" on roads without bike lanes. �

In fact, I suggest the development of the bike lane is largely responsible for creating the expectation that bicyclists should be out of the way/not in "the road" ( where "the road" is the part of the roadway needed by motorists).

Yes, the proliferation of bike lanes has reinforced the perception that general purpose travel lanes are actually "car lanes." But bike lanes are supposed to be preferential lanes, similar to HOV or bus lanes. Yet people harass bicyclists who don't ride in bike lanes but would never think of doing the same thing to HOV or bus drivers who are not in their own lanes.

Can you imagine the driver alone in a car yelling at an HOV driver in an adjacent general purpose travel lane, "You ain't no f'ing SOV, man. Get in the HOV lane!" (Similar to what a motorist once yelled to me as I was riding my bicycle in the right lane of a 4 lane urban street, "You ain't no f'ing car, man. Get on the sidewalk!")

Traffic engineers simply do not think about bicyclists when they design travel lanes. Like most people, I think they are stuck in a "car lane paradigm." They think it is the bicyclist's job to stay out of the way of cars. They firmly believe that a bicyclist who rides slower than the speed of motorists in a lane is at increased risk of being rear-ended, and so do not plan for bicyclists to use travel lanes at all. The public picks up quickly on this, leading to the harassment and small number of people bicycling in traffic.

Bob Shanteau

[Mark Ortiz]

That’s precisely what I mean when I say that even “good” or “merely superfluous” bike lanes are in fact a bad thing because they send the wrong message to the public.

 

Mark Ortiz

 

From: bicycle...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bicycle...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Serge Issakov

Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 9:50 AM
To: Mark Ortiz

Cc: <bicycle...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [BicycleDriving] memetics (was: extra harassment this week?)

 

Just posted by Mighk Wilson on Facebook, who lives in Orlando: