Fwd: [CABOforum] NPR interview with John Schubert

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Serge Issakov

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Jan 9, 2023, 5:59:45 PM1/9/23
to BicycleDriving
Schubert on NPR!


---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: 'Pete Penseyres' via CABOforum <cabo...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [CABOforum] NPR interview with John Schubert
To: j...@pobox.com <j...@pobox.com>, Jim Baross <jimb...@cox.net>
CC: Cabo Forum <cabo...@googlegroups.com>


On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 11:59:16 AM PST, Jim Baross <jimb...@cox.net> wrote:


Can someone provide directions for listening to it?
Thanks.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2023, 11:38 AM John Serafin <j...@pobox.com> wrote:
The "Here and Now" program on NPR had an interview with
John Schubert today where green paint door zones, controlling
the lane, etc. were discussed.

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John P. Serafin

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Frank J. Lehnerz

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Jan 9, 2023, 6:07:36 PM1/9/23
to Serge Issakov, BicycleDriving

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Patricia Kovacs

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Jan 10, 2023, 10:07:42 PM1/10/23
to Serge Issakov, Frank J. Lehnerz, BicycleDriving

Serge Issakov

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Jan 10, 2023, 10:24:49 PM1/10/23
to Patricia Kovacs, BicycleDriving, Frank J. Lehnerz

Here is some discussion about today’s episode that was posted in the Supporters of Full Lane Rights group on FB.

Arif K wrote:

Claims that were made in the segment:

1. If you can bike the speed of traffic, then maybe it's safe to be in traffic

This is false.  You can certainly go slower than traffic and still be safe because drivers already know how to chage lanes for slower traffic and they do this every day

2. Most cyclists prefer separation from vehicles

John Schubert claimed that once you try taking the lane, you'll get relief from hazards that one gets from riding near the curb or edge or parked cars (close passes, opening car doors, road hazards, etc) and once you learn how easy it is, cycling is transformed for you and it becomes much less stressful.

Here he says that if you just try it, you'll experience what other people who have tried it already have.

Going back to the claim in this segment, the Armin Samii is claiming that most cyclists prefer separation, you have to be very confident for taking the lane to work.  But does he have personal experience with taking the lane and seeing whether it works for him or not?

Many of us started out as edge riding cyclists and decided to try taking the lane and have had similar experiences that John described.  In other words, we've had experience with both ways of riding.  Armin, on the other hand, doesn't appear to have experience with both ways of riding and is just making proclamations about one way of riding that he doesn't have experience with.  The fact that he claims you have to bike the speed of traffic for it to be safe to ride in traffic indicates he doesn't have experience with taking the lane and riding in traffic.

He elaborates on this claim by going on to say that most people are afraid to be cycling next to cars, which indicates he's still thinking about edge riding rather than taking the lane while riding.

3. Most cyclists don't want to be treated as vehicles.  They want separated infrastruture

Again, he makes a claim about what most cyclists want, but he's presumably relying on data collected from surveys asking leading questions from people who don't currently cycle.

4. You can rely on the city to just clean up bike lanes to avoid close calls or debris

This doesn't address the fundamental design issues like coffin corners or door zone bike lanes.

5. Contact advocacy groups to add or improve infrastructure

Some people have been doing that, yet we have door zone bike lanes and bike lanes that lead into coffin corners, so advocacy groups aren't really helping cyclists in terms of safety.  Plus, this doesn't really solve the problem today like taking the lane would.

Al G added:

"Most cyclists don't want to be treated as vehicles. They want separated infrastruture"
- Most "cyclists" don't know what they want. Most are just casual bike riders and haven't the experience to make an educated choice on their own.
- Most of those casual bike riders are told repeatedly by so-called cycling advocates who are really infrastructure advocates that they need infrastructure to be safe when riding their bike. They are told the if that infrastructure doesn't exist, they must ride out of the way of motorists, on the right,at the curb, or on the sidewalk. 
- Most of those casual riders hear someone suggest that they ride using the full lane and won't believe the recommendation because it's contrary to what the "expert" told them.


And yours truly:

I completely agree with the comments above of Arif K and Al G. 

I will say I’m glad Armin talked about John Schubert’s mindset, because mindset is ultimately what this all about. 

I agree with Armin the mindset of most people prevents them from feeling comfortable using the “car lane” (let’s choose our battles; not sure this semantic one is worth it). But what he and other infra proponents won’t seem to consider is figuring out how to change that mindset. He’s basically saying that actual safety taking the lane is irrelevant. What matters is everyone not feeling safe doing it. And he seems to understand it’s due to mindset. But he takes their mindset as a given, something that can’t be changed. 

We have good reason to believe it’s not true, at least not for those with sufficient interest to take a CyclingSavvy course. 

But what I want to do is find a way to change these disabling mindsets en masse. I think the show with John was a step in the right direction. But this one took us back.

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