Question about basic functionality of Bibledit (1st post to this group)

[Ian Scales]

Hi to this group. I'm wondering if Bibledit can do what I hope it can do ...

So, if I have a USFM-formatted file of the Bible in Roviana, let's say, (from Michael Johnson's pacificbibles.org), and a USFM-formatted KJV  -- can I upload both to Bibledit and then, on the screen, see both side-by-side, so that:

If I search a word in Roviana, and step through its occurrences in the Roviana text, so that I'm jumping from one book, chapter, and verse, to another book, chapter and verse as I'm looking at how that word is being used, will the KJV text roll with me automatically, or not?

Either this functionality is so basic to the software nobody thinks to mention it, or it just can't because that's not what people do. I honestly don't know which. If it can do this, what is this functionality called? 

And how does the software index both texts to couple them together? Is it the usfm backslash fieldmarker "\id" and the three-letter code in that field for each book, that indicates to the program where I am within the text? 

Lastly, assuming that it can indeed do this kind of coupled text scrolling, is there a video or other instruction how to set up this function, and use it for text searching?

TIA

Ian Scales

Western Province

Solomon Islands

[Eric Chapman]

Ian,

If I read your e-mail correctly, I think you are looking for a program to read the Bible and compare English with Roviana, right? If so, Bibledit is probably not what you want.

Michael Johnson's site https://ebible.org/find/ has many Bible translations. Here is a link to show Roviana first and then the Greek TR, then Russian Synodal, then the English KJV is columns for comparison. Is that what you are looking for? Link: https://ebible.org/study/?w1=bible&t1=local%3Arug&v1=JN1_1&w2=bible&t2=local%3Agrctr&v2=JN1_1&w3=bible&t3=local%3Arussyn&v3=JN1_1&w4=bible&t4=local%3Aeng-kjv2006&v4=JN1_1

Joy & Peace in Believing (Rom. 15:13),

Eric Chapman

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bibledit-General" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bibledit-gener...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bibledit-general/bbdf51f5-d339-4016-bda3-004e8fdc6280n%40googlegroups.com.

[Matt Postiff]

Ian,

That kind of functionality is provided in Logos via their "linked panels" feature. When you scroll one of the linked panels, the other panel scrolls along with it, in a parallel fashion. You probably could get a free or inexpensive version of Logos with KJV, and then import your USFM Roviana Bible into it. If you need assistance with that, I know someone who is working on a script to import USFM into Logos, and it might with some tweaks work on your USFM. You could private message me the USFM files and I can see what we could do.

Matt

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bibledit-general/8e1169ff-2a41-4ebd-9266-728fd62b8f99%40etchapman.org.

[Ian Scales]

Thanks for the responses, thanks Eric and thanks Matt. I'll just reply to both here.

1) Eric -- a) firstly, that link to the Browser bible is pretty interesting. I see that it does what I'm hoping for in a bible editor: that it auto scrolls all texts in unison; maybe it's called "synchronized scrolling"? I note that you have to switch tabs to read different languages on the same verse. Pity it isn't able to split the window to show two or more languages simultaneously to view. 

               b) I didn't tell the full story in my first post, otherwise it would have gotten too complicated. I have a third language bible file, which I'll just call "Oceanic Language X" (OLX, let's call it -- there's a back-story about gatekeeping and agendas that I won't get into, so I won't identify the language). I've ocr'd this from its old book format, as a private project. It needs editing for both ocr errors and original book typos (many!), and then use it to build a glossary of all OLX vernacular words within it, and also build a list of vernacularised OLX spellings of biblical places, proper names and foreign nouns. For that latter I'll need to somehow tag those "non-OLX" words within the text. That's so I can separate vernacular and non-vernacular lexemes into separate glossaries.  So long story short, yes I need to be able to edit, not just read. But I need simultaneously to read across OLX, Roviana and English so as to compare cognates while I work: hence the need for synchronized scrolling.

2) Matt -- a) it seems from your post that maybe Bibledit doesn't automatically do synchronized scrolling; that's implied when you direct me to Logos. I'm open to using Logos instead of Bibledit since at this stage I haven't invested any learning curve in any of these apps yet. I hope Logos can edit. But maybe first, now, I will just try uploading the Roviana and KJV into Bibledit and make see for myself if it sync-scrolls or not.

                 b) Yes, if Logos is the way to go (for the linked panels), I could send through the OLX language USFM file. My range of USFM field-markers is minimal, just four: \id, \c, \v, \s1. Not sure though if any of Mike Johnson's Roviana formats will import into Logos (which I'd need it for comparison). The USFM version of the Roviana bible translation, being newer in approach, and not the austere old-school style of the OLX bible,  has a whole lot of extra formatting field-markers in use.

Ian

[Kahunapule Michael Johnson]

On 3/17/24 14:41, Ian Scales wrote:

Thanks for the responses, thanks Eric and thanks Matt. I'll just reply to both here.

1) Eric -- a) firstly, that link to the Browser bible is pretty interesting. I see that it does what I'm hoping for in a bible editor: that it auto scrolls all texts in unison; maybe it's called "synchronized scrolling"? I note that you have to switch tabs to read different languages on the same verse. Pity it isn't able to split the window to show two or more languages simultaneously to view. 

Actually, Browser Bible does show more languages in parallel (not separate tabs) if your screen is wide enough. But you would still need Bibledit (or Paratext or Adapt It or Translation Studio) to edit the USFM in the translation(s) you are working on. Bibledit CAN display parallel Bible passages of reference texts along with the working editing menu. See the help files for Bibledit about workspaces. Or you can run Bibledit just for the editing and use another window to display reference texts from https://eBible.org/study/ or from another Bible web site or Bible study software instance.

I hope this helps...

--

Aloha,
Michael Johnson
26 HIWALANI LOOP • MAKAWAO HI 96768-8747 • USA
mljohnson.org • eBible.org • WorldEnglish.Bible • PNG.Bible
Signal/Telegram/WhatsApp/Telephone: +1 808-333-6921
Skype: kahunapule • Telegram/Twitter: @kahunapule • Facebook: fb.me/kahunapule

[Ian Scales]

Thanks Michael. a) Noted about screen width on Browser Bible; I'd looked at the link Eric sent me, on my smartphone. Hence the tabbed display. After your advice I opened the link on my 32" desktop display and, oh, that's just perfect. The different language bibles laid out across the screen, and simple mousewheel scrolling is synchronized across all texts and the search window, once a verse is selected; this updates all other windows. This would be exactly, just exactly, what I had envisaged -- only it unfortunately has no editing function, it's just a viewer. Just a bit of feedback though -- my 3840x2160 display doesn't like the font used for the body text, which looks kind of blobby. (May I suggest Source Serif Pro or Roboto Serif? -- both are modern takes on traditional book fonts, are optimised for digital media, and are open font licensed on Google Fonts).

b) After elimination of your alternative suggestions Paratext, Adapt It and Translation Studio, and without really being sure about Logos, I've decided on Bibledit, for the moment at least. It's got an idiosyncratic GUI that takes a huge amount of effort to make sense of. The Help file is incomplete, and even then only notional rather than technical. There's a few clues in the videos, but not many. But somehow I stumbled upon getting the Roviana text up in one panel along with a search panel using World English Bible (I have no idea how I got them both up at once, it's all so odd); and noticed it sort of does synchronous scrolling, as you select search results. But I cannot figure out how to get further bible versions onto the screen -- it seems to rely on editing the workspace to call these resources with urls -- but there's no specification of what the urls might be or where to find out! It must be one of the oddest pieces of software I've ever come across. But, practically speaking, it's the only alternative open to me. Unless I follow your suggestion of, say, using Browser Bible for the other Bibles and search functions, and then Bibledit for a single-window text editor only (which means no synchronous scrolling).

Leana,

Ian

[Michael Johnson]

On 3/17/24 18:12, Ian Scales wrote:

Thanks Michael. a) Noted about screen width on Browser Bible; I'd looked at the link Eric sent me, on my smartphone. Hence the tabbed display. After your advice I opened the link on my 32" desktop display and, oh, that's just perfect. The different language bibles laid out across the screen, and simple mousewheel scrolling is synchronized across all texts and the search window, once a verse is selected; this updates all other windows. This would be exactly, just exactly, what I had envisaged -- only it unfortunately has no editing function, it's just a viewer. Just a bit of feedback though -- my 3840x2160 display doesn't like the font used for the body text, which looks kind of blobby. (May I suggest Source Serif Pro or Roboto Serif? -- both are modern takes on traditional book fonts, are optimised for digital media, and are open font licensed on Google Fonts).

It turns out that letting users choose their own fonts AND avoiding missing characters with many different writing systems is HARD. Right now, for texts using plain Latin alphabets, you can use any font you like in Browser Bible as long as it is Gentium, DejaVu Serif, or Andika. (See the settings menu in Browser Bible.) More choice could be offered, of course, but I haven't got the time to work on that. I am not aware of any way to choose fonts in Bibledit.

b) After elimination of your alternative suggestions Paratext, Adapt It and Translation Studio, and without really being sure about Logos, I've decided on Bibledit, for the moment at least. It's got an idiosyncratic GUI that takes a huge amount of effort to make sense of. The Help file is incomplete, and even then only notional rather than technical. There's a few clues in the videos, but not many. But somehow I stumbled upon getting the Roviana text up in one panel along with a search panel using World English Bible (I have no idea how I got them both up at once, it's all so odd); and noticed it sort of does synchronous scrolling, as you select search results. But I cannot figure out how to get further bible versions onto the screen -- it seems to rely on editing the workspace to call these resources with urls -- but there's no specification of what the urls might be or where to find out! It must be one of the oddest pieces of software I've ever come across. But, practically speaking, it's the only alternative open to me. Unless I follow your suggestion of, say, using Browser Bible for the other Bibles and search functions, and then Bibledit for a single-window text editor only (which means no synchronous scrolling).

You can upload reference USFM Bibles to Bibledit, then convert them to resources in the Bible menu. Then they should show up in the workspace. I think.

On Monday 18 March 2024 at 12:59:57 UTC+11 kahunapule wrote:

On 3/17/24 14:41, Ian Scales wrote:

Thanks for the responses, thanks Eric and thanks Matt. I'll just reply to both here.

1) Eric -- a) firstly, that link to the Browser bible is pretty interesting. I see that it does what I'm hoping for in a bible editor: that it auto scrolls all texts in unison; maybe it's called "synchronized scrolling"? I note that you have to switch tabs to read different languages on the same verse. Pity it isn't able to split the window to show two or more languages simultaneously to view. 

Actually, Browser Bible does show more languages in parallel (not separate tabs) if your screen is wide enough. But you would still need Bibledit (or Paratext or Adapt It or Translation Studio) to edit the USFM in the translation(s) you are working on. Bibledit CAN display parallel Bible passages of reference texts along with the working editing menu. See the help files for Bibledit about workspaces. Or you can run Bibledit just for the editing and use another window to display reference texts from https://eBible.org/study/ or from another Bible web site or Bible study software instance.

I hope this helps...

--

Aloha,
Michael Johnson
26 HIWALANI LOOP • MAKAWAO HI 96768-8747 • USA
mljohnson.org • eBible.org • WorldEnglish.Bible • PNG.Bible
Signal/Telegram/WhatsApp/Telephone: +1 808-333-6921
Skype: kahunapule • Telegram/Twitter: @kahunapule • Facebook: fb.me/kahunapule

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bibledit-General" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bibledit-gener...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bibledit-general/66100c9d-3aa0-4e7f-b0b5-6d31f949d178n%40googlegroups.com.

[Teus Benschop]

Hello Ian,

The Workspace editor, available via Settings / Workspaces (http://bibledit.org:8090/workspace/settings?name=Translation) has some information at the bottom of the screen, that explains how to get multiple Bibles in one workspace, that will then scroll in parallel.

The information here, and on the page mentioned above, is a bit short, but I hope that it assists a bit.

With kind regards,

Teus Benschop

[Ian Scales]

Thanks to both Michael and Teus

1) Michael, a) yes I hadn't considered non-Latin glyphs -- so the range of possible fonts would indeed be restrictive. 

                   b) Uploading usfm bibles from (e.g.) ebible.org, do show up in the workspace. I just have to figure out how to turn off the display of Strong's numbers, which show out as markup even when all the (other) usfm markers are not visible. That's most likely a Bibledit problem, not an ebible.org problem. 

2) Teus, a) I read that info on the workspace editor page (as in your link here), although I found it cryptic. I suspect I have to sort out my cloud connection before some of it makes sense -- the urls perhaps are called from the cloud. 

              b) I don't see how to establish a cloud connection. In the client instance I have installed, initially if I went to menu>settings>cloud, I see I needed to enter a url, a port nr, a username (from memory) and a password. I didn't know any of that, so I left it. It would be good to know. 

              c) Since then, while I was away from my desk, the client reset itself, it is now running in demo mode, and all my localised usfm files I'd been playing with (Roviana language bible, etc) are gone, replaced by generic resources in the workspace. I have no idea what to do next to free it up again, to see my own workspace. Also, I no longer see any option to enter the cloud login details as before. 

Thanks

Ian

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bibledit-General" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bibledit-gener...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bibledit-general/CAFueZ4yXMX6wG7Jnt8GH3tUrC4%3D3-%3DHcVcuMH8mvt-nykx%2Bj_Q%40mail.gmail.com.

[Teus Benschop]

Hello Ian,

About the workspace editor, yes, the information there is not extensive, that is true.

The existing workspaces on the public Bibledit Cloud demo, at http://bibledit.org:8090/workspace/organize, will provide samples of how a workspace is built up, and which partial URLs are to be entered. If you don't have your own Cloud yet, this public demo is a great place to experiment with finding out which partial URLs deliver which workspace.

On that same public Cloud demo, in the Journal at http://bibledit.org:8090/journal/index, it can be seen that your Roviana was uploaded there. Obviously you made a connection from your Bibledit client to the public Cloud, and then your Roviana was uploaded to that public Cloud, and subsequently erased by someone, and then also erased at your end upon your next automatic send/receive action.

The public Bibledit Cloud is a great place to experiment with things, but since it is public, everyone can do anything there, including editing Bibles and even deleting Bibles - which is what happened in your situation.

Therefore there is a red notice on any client when connected to that public cloud, like so:

You are connected to a public demo of Bibledit Cloud. Everybody can modify the data on that server. After send and receive your data will reflect the data on the server.

Normally in case you need your own Bibledit Cloud, you will need someone to install a version for you to work with. The bibledit.org website has lots of information about this. There is also a Review at the bottom of https://bibledit.org/installation/ with more helpful information.

In case you'd rather be free from the public Bibledit Cloud, it is possible to disconnect from the Cloud via Menu -> Settings -> Cloud -> Connection information -> I understand it and want to disconnect from the Cloud.

Teus Benschop

[Ian Scales]

Thanks Teus. I appreciate your attention and the information you have provided.

I found Bibledit Desktop v4.16 on the fbcaa.org website. It has a GUI which I find more conventional and easier to work with, at least while I learn more about how Bibledit works. 

My bigger problem now though, as it turns out, is that I found usfm editing requires the full 66-book bible text-file I have (from my "Oceanic Language X" ocr efforts) to be split into separate books, before all the text can be read by Bibledit. 

So I've been trying to write a "splitter" script for Powershell that will automate that process, and, along with a concatenator script, allow splitting and concatenating on round trips between the usfm editor and other apps, like corpus analyzers and conventional word processors.

I'm having terrible trouble with that script. I'm an untalented programmer, and I'm out of my depth. You can see my post to StackExchange superuser forum if you have any interest in that. It half works, but I can't get the three-letter book codes into the filenames. The original problem seems to be partly overcome thanks to kind help there, but now there's some multiline problem preventing select-string from working. In case it is of any interest to you, that post is at https://superuser.com/questions/1836029/powershell-idvalue-doesnt-write-the-extracted-id-but-writes-true-instead  (in the post, I obscured the purpose of the script, because as you would know, there's hostility toward Christianity among the general population).

Alternatively, I don't suppose you've already got a "text splitter" that you or anyone has already written for this same situation? Because after I'm over this hurdle either by completing the Powershell script or using someone else's script, I can get back to Bibledit, and then consider your input more deeply.  

Ian

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bibledit-General" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bibledit-gener...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bibledit-general/CAFueZ4yx6sTX-NjVhennBE4u3BrKe32wdQ5Y8%3DUzJnLtxQbwtg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Teus Benschop]

Hello Ian,

For sure the people who comment on superuser.com will be knowledgeable to such a degree that I think they will be able to give all hints that assists you with getting the splitting done.

About your question about an existing text splitter, for USFM, the good part is that Bibledit can do that easily. Either the online version at http://bibledit.org:8090 or else your local equivalent, will be able to do this.

The splitting is done in two steps.

1. Import the large USFM file into a Bible in Bibledit.

2. Export that Bible to full USFM.

The import works as described in the video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dooIs_Sgk8o.

The export works via menu Tools -> Export, and then following the screen to select the Bible to export, and then to export to full USFM, then to click on "view exports", and select the appropriate files for download.

Teus Benschop

[Ian Scales]

Hi Teus, thanks again.

1. a) I tried your suggestion for splitting my large multi-book usfm-formatted text file, by importing to Bibledit (4.16) with the intention to export again as split usfm book files.

    b) the imported text was corrupt. I tried a few times, but the import only picked up one book toward the end of the multi-book file. A bug, perhaps.

    c) So, I went back to my buggy Powershell script, and with a fresh mind resolved it. Independently of Bibledit, I can now split my own multibook files and filename them 00-FRT etc. 
2. But here's something odd about the book numbers. In all the bibles I've downloaded (ASV, KJC, WEB, RUG), the portmanteau zip file starts with 00-FRT, then skips to 02-GEN, then $i=1. But USFM documentation, in both versions 2.4 and 3.0, specify 00-FRT, 01-GEN etc., $i=1. 
    Why the difference between specification (01-GEN) and practice (02-GEN)? Which should I use for my new "Oceanic Language X" version?

Ian

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bibledit-General" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bibledit-gener...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bibledit-general/CAFueZ4wSkqd4c%3DR6U1iznT4R9Onx57e%2Bff_nz_iaS76XZnDwqg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Teus Benschop]

Hello Ian,

Very nice that you managed to complete the script to split the large USFM file into smaller ones. Nice work, and a contribution to the USFM "ecosystem" if I may call it like that :)

Initially it was puzzling to me why Bibledit could not be used to do the splitting up of the large USFM file into the smaller ones in your situation. But then the reason became soon clear. In the previous email it was suggested that "... Either the online version at http://bibledit.org:8090 or else your local equivalent, will be able to do this....". The online version is version number 5.1.012 (http://bibledit.org:8090/help/about), and the "local equivalent" would be the same version number. That explains why Bibledit (4.16) gave you a different outcome, as it picked up only one book.

With regard to the numbers prefixed to the book files, like in "01-GEN" or "02-GEN", I have a question: 

Where exactly does USFM 2.4 or 3.0 specify the number prefixes? 

I could not find it. I tried to look for it, as it would answer your question about the correct number to use for each book.

Teus

[Michael Johnson]

Number prefixes on USFM file names are not a part of the USFM specification. They aren't required to be there, and if they are, it doesn't matter what they are. Software packages sometimes include them to make the files sort in canonical order when writing them. When reading USFM files, it is a bad idea to assume anything about file names, because they are very inconsistent. When processing USFM files in Haiola, I totally ignore the file names, and go by the \id markers to figure out which book of the Bible it is.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bibledit-General" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bibledit-gener...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bibledit-general/CAFueZ4yvinoXA%3D46tdsb-n2VKNriQ2wetD4RGwqUyQ8C%3D3rG1w%40mail.gmail.com.

[Ian Scales]

Thanks Teus and Michael for your responses.

I suppose the definitive answer to my USFM file naming structure is from Michael -- which is, number prefixes on usfm file names are not part of the usfm specification, and can be inconsistent. For my purposes then, I'll just follow the numbering pattern I see in the other USFM file packages that I am using, to be on the safe side in terms of them aligning in parallel Bibledit project windows. It seems from Michael's comment (and I have a high confidence he's going to be right) that there's no "correct" standard to adhere to, even though it might be implied that there is, by the documentation referred to below.

I wonder how that fits with the way Bibledit reads usfm files, when it Imports.

I did retrieve for Teus the links for the USFM reference for Book Abbreviations / Book Identifiers. Both versions 2.4 and 3.0 of the specification give that information in tabular form. Here are those links:

USFM User Reference 2.4 (pdf)
Section 2.1 "Book Abbreviations" on pages 10-12
https://paratext.org/files/documentation/usfmReference2_4.pdf

USFM 3.0 USFM Documentation (online)
Identification > Book Abbreviations > "Book Identifiers"
https://ubsicap.github.io/usfm/identification/books.html

Thanks Teus, for your encouraging words about my "splitter" script. I'd be happy if others can make use of it in a Bibledit context (or any other USFM editing context). So I'll start a new post here later, just about that topic, and upload the script there in case it's of use to anyone else.

Ian

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bibledit-general/b342fcb7-1ca3-4817-bb69-8d26c7c52f9a%40eBible.org.

[Michael Johnson]

For what it's worth, a friend of mine made up his own standard for ESFM, an improper superset of USFM. He specifies file names without leading numbers. See https://github.com/Freely-Given-org/ESFM for details.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bibledit-general/CAFh6W%2BTNi1%3DR3qbD-U6ATyxNV4ewwEoRWOZ0jkpiG34g-tD1EA%40mail.gmail.com.

--

Aloha,
Michael Johnson
26 HIWALANI LOOP • MAKAWAO HI 96768-8747

• USA

mljohnson.org • eBible.org • WorldEnglish.Bible • PNG.Bible
Signal/Telegram/WhatsApp/Telephone: +1 808-333-6921

Skype: kahunapule • Telegram: @kahunapule • Facebook: fb.me/kahunapule

[Ian Scales]

Thanks Michael. My usfm files are working; as you say, even though the numbering on the file is different, Bibledit clearly takes no notice of that and is looking for, I assume, whatever is in the first three characters of the \id field. 

I'm going to close off from this post now, because it has become long and meandering. I'm about to start a new post on another question. Thanks to all. 

Ian

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bibledit-general/7557bcfd-b429-40bd-ab8b-4356a354a646%40eBible.org.