Re: [bibledit/cloud] Ability to delete badly formed style from Stylesheet (Issue #769)

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Eric Chapman

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Apr 13, 2022, 2:17:45 PMApr 13
to Teus Benschop

Yes, and even \periph is not correct, best I can tell. Apparently it's supposed to be \periph Title Page.

I've put too much effort into that stylesheet to what to delete it, so I'll just leave it with the bad style. :) I need to make a backup of it somewhere, somehow.

Eric

On 4/13/22 13:59, Teus Benschop wrote:

Oops :).

A quick work-around in the mean time would be to delete the entire stylesheet. It will take down then misbehaving style too.

Message ID: <bibledit/cloud/issues/769/1098332415@github.com>

Michael Johnson

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Apr 14, 2022, 3:37:09 AMApr 14
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For what it is worth, there is so much confusion and inconsistency surrounding the \periph tag in USFM that I don't automatically do anything useful with it. I treat it more like a comment to the typesetter which, of course, isn't always read.

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Eric Chapman

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Apr 15, 2022, 8:09:55 AMApr 15
to Teus Benschop

Hello, Michael,

Well, I surely didn't know that was there (like many things!), but I like wheels, so it's great 😁. I definitely don't want to re-invent the wheel. I'd rather translate. But as I try to get drafts to folks, I am afraid that if the typesetting of the drafts looks less-than-great, it will actually affect the reviewers' responses. So maybe I feel obligated to re-invent that wheel, though, since I want to be able to tweak how it looks, including font colors, fonts, spacing, etc., etc. I think that Haiola project you gave me the link to is off to a great start. For it to work for me, I'd like some customization available. Here are issues that you probably are aware of but just haven't had time to deal with yet (all based merely on my opinion and use case):

> Ability to have Haiola extract style decisions from a user-provided stylesheet (the usfm.sty one selected for export in Bibledit?) and then ask the user about all other style options that Haiola has, but are not in that stylesheet.

> User-configurable fonts (different for headers & main text & footnotes).

> User-configurable option to include or exclude footnotes. Actually, I want to go back and mark a few footnotes that I think should be in almost every edition, but in some drafts, it would be good to have none at all. The footnotes in the LIT translation are really of three types: (1) almost essential [just a few]; (2) broadly useful, and (3) Study Bible level.

> User-configurable choice of page numbers on top of page or bottom.

> Running headers with verses should not occur on the first page of a book:

> Footnote callers should be user-configurable (I prefer "a, b, c" and restarting on each printed page) and footnotes should not run off the page (and the leading of the lines in the footnotes should be good – I think the superscript footnote markers here are expanding it so it does not look good). I also think that a user-configurable option to present footnotes in a list one on top of another rather than 1+ per line might be good (although the way you've done it here uses less paper and is also a great option):

> Footnote font and/or size should be consistent (probably occurred due to use of ≈ which is not in all fonts):

> No page number of first page of book:

> User-configurable tables (with or without borders, etc.) and so they do not run off the right off the page. I know tables are a pain, and what to do if the length is more than one page raises issues, etc.) For my purposes, this abbreviations list does not have to be a table, but could be a list if tabs where the en dash are could be defined):

> The user-defined ability to suppress the "watermark" (and why is the date here listed at April 11, when it says it was generated on April 13 from April 12 data?):

> (a) Have user define the localized word for "Contents" and have it centered:

> (b) Have user define if short book names are used in the Table of Contents or long book names (would be much better for us if long were used):

> User-definable location and format of chapter numbers (drop cap or as they are here):

> User-definable ability to print either in (1) paragraph format (as currently) or in (2) single column verse-by-verse format or (3) in double column verse-by-verse format.

Thanks a zillion for all you're doing every day of the week to get the Word out!

Eric


On 4/14/22 14:08, Michael Johnson wrote:
Are you reinventing the wheel I invented at https://ebible.org/pdf/lit/ ?

On 4/14/22 01:35, Eric Chapman wrote:

Michael,

I found this about well-formed front matter: https://community.scripture.software.sil.org/t/well-formatted-front-matter/2484

I would just like a seamless way to get good quality drafts to print (including the front matter).

And at this point I have \periph coded as "is a comment" in my stylesheet (I'm addressing your statement that you "treat it more like a comment to the typesetter".) I do not know if it is supposed to be listed in the stylesheet as "is a comment" or something else. Maybe that's why it's showing up in Preview…

Eric



Eric Chapman

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Apr 15, 2022, 8:24:50 AMApr 15
to Teus Benschop

Hello, Michael,

OK. Fair enough. My current plan is this:

  1. Change \periph to \pb in the USFM code I'm doing. BUT … what should I put on the \rem line? Maybe the USFM codes I'm replacing, e.g., "\periph Title Page|id="title"? (I never have figured out what the "|id="title" is for…)
  2. File an issue so that \periph and \id FRT, etc. are recognized in Bibledit. That way if someone uses Bibledit and uses them, at least it won't mess up the Previews and exports.
  3. Check out John Nystrom's book, Sleeping Coconuts. :)
Thanks, Michael! You (and Teus) have helped me so many times already that I'm indebted to you both.
Eric


On 4/14/22 14:15, Michael Johnson wrote:
Hello, Eric.

I read the link about well-formed front matter, and it looks like my friend, John Nystrom, essentially said to replace all \periph markers with \pb (page break) markers and a \rem comment. So what I said about not using \periph seems to be holding true. (By the way, John Nystrom and I used to live near each other in Papua New Guinea, where he worked as a Bible translator. If you want some fascinating reading, try his book, "Sleeping Coconuts".)


On 4/14/22 01:35, Eric Chapman wrote:

Michael,

I found this about well-formed front matter: https://community.scripture.software.sil.org/t/well-formatted-front-matter/2484

I would just like a seamless way to get good quality drafts to print (including the front matter).

And at this point I have \periph coded as "is a comment" in my stylesheet (I'm addressing your statement that you "treat it more like a comment to the typesetter".) I do not know if it is supposed to be listed in the stylesheet as "is a comment" or something else. Maybe that's why it's showing up in Preview…

Eric

Michael Johnson

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Apr 16, 2022, 9:53:06 PMApr 16
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Hello, Eric.

You are full of good ideas and grand visions. :-)

Getting a stylesheet to carry from Bibledit through to all publishing paths sounds great, but probably won't ever happen for a variety of reasons. However, you could probably author synchronized stylesheets for Bibledit and one or more publishing paths.

Right now, to get the kind of control you want, you have several options, all of which involve significant learning curves:
  • Use the Bibledit open document format output, and adjust the styles to your taste.
  • Use Haiola Microsoft Word XML output and attach a Microsoft Word style sheet to the result, then tweak headings, etc., to taste. To do this, however, you would need to change the table formatting in the FRT book to something else, because I never got around to implementing tables in Microsoft Word XML output, so I just suppress Microsoft Word document generation when any table is present. Crude, I know, but Microsoft Word XML format is no longer fully supported by Microsoft, so I probably won't implement tables. However, many Bibles have gone through final, print typesetting with this process.
  • Use PTXPrint.
  • Use Haiola's XeLaTeX output and manually adjust the stylesheets it uses. This is a very powerful option, but there is no GUI or user friendly interface to do this, so it is pretty much restricted to those willing to learn XeTeX, which is more like programming that writing or translating. FWIW, Haiola's PDF generation currently uses XeTeX like PTXPrint, but there are some bugs in both processes that are causing me to look at SILE for future PDF generation.
  • Use SIL's InDesign Controller and Adobe InDesign (not free, but very powerful).

My honest opinion is that for drafts for checking, you would do well to use one or more of the ready-made outputs with minimal, if any, customizations, and save the detailed typesetting for the final draft. That way you can focus on translation, more.

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Michael Johnson

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Apr 16, 2022, 10:03:07 PMApr 16
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On 4/15/22 02:24, Eric Chapman wrote:

Hello, Michael,

OK. Fair enough. My current plan is this:

  1. Change \periph to \pb in the USFM code I'm doing. BUT … what should I put on the \rem line? Maybe the USFM codes I'm replacing, e.g., "\periph Title Page|id="title"? (I never have figured out what the "|id="title" is for…)

The \rem line is a comment that has NO effect on published output, by definition. It is only there for the benefit of someone reading raw USFM code, which would normally only be translators, publishers (but only for manual publication paths, not automatic ones), and archivists.


  1. File an issue so that \periph and \id FRT, etc. are recognized in Bibledit. That way if someone uses Bibledit and uses them, at least it won't mess up the Previews and exports.

\id FRT is unambiguous, so that may be fruitful. The \periph marker is really a comment to a manual, human labor typesetter, and doesn't have a precise enough meaning for automation in Bibledit or Haiola, in my opinion.



  1. Check out John Nystrom's book, Sleeping Coconuts. :)

Worth the read. :-)



Thanks, Michael! You (and Teus) have helped me so many times already that I'm indebted to you both.

It is our pleasure to help you get your Bible translation work done.


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