(NEW ZERO NOTHINGNESS BEYOND INFINITY), also touches nirguNa, budhism concepts, (1) + (2) + (3), and more, see below

[Thirumala Raya Halemane]

(NEW ZERO NOTHINGNESS BEYOND INFINITY) concept explained, also touches nirguNa, budhism concepts, (1) + (2) + (3), and more, see below  

includes 

(1) my several old email interactions with Shree Prasad Bhargava Ji in 2010 August with Subject: Re: nirguNa, also touching budhism, also copied to various others

+

(2) my old email to Shree Prof  R T Bumby Ji, from 2010 August 14 with Subject: new zero after infinity for number system, makes it closed, complete, perfect

+

(above two, (2) +(1), were copied or forwarded to various others in 2010 with Subject: nirguNa and buddhism)

+

(3) my 2026 February 17 email (3B) message to Shree Guru Sri. H.H. Ramakrishnanda Saraswathi Swamiji (Sankaracharya of SriVidhya Peetam.) Vedaravishangar - Sisya of H. H. Swamiji with Subject: NEW ZERO NOTHINGNESS CONCEPT EXPLAINED = Fwd: new zero after infinity for number system, makes it closed, complete, perfect (on seeing his LinkedIn post about Shunyam, and my comments (3A) on the post there)

Our Many Thanks, Regards and Best Wishes to them all, and to ALL.

===

(3A) my three comments at the LinkedIn post mentioned 

2026 February 17

Me

ONAT

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:7429488972457803776?commentUrn=urn%3Ali%3Acomment%3A%28ugcPost%3A7429488972457803776%2C7429592968132685824%29&dashCommentUrn=urn%3Ali%3Afsd_comment%3A%287429592968132685824%2Curn%3Ali%3AugcPost%3A7429488972457803776%29

Me:

Thirumala Raya Halemane

VERY NICE POST. PLEASURE TO READ.
PLEASE KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.
BEST WISHES. AUMM
(below is my old email from 2010)
NEW ZERO, part !
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Thirumala Raya Halemane <trhal...@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 5:02 PM
Subject: new zero after infinity for number system, makes it closed, complete, perfect
To: Prof. R. T. Bumby <bu...@math.rutgers.edu>

dear prof. r t bumby,

my name is dr thirumala raya halemane, i was a teaching assistant for your undergraduate math course in spring 1981 (i was a postdoc in theoretical physics at the time). recently, in 2008, i had stopped by your office at hill center to say hello. i was teaching part time at rutgers, in statistics, and, in ece departments.

i have the following idea for a new concept of nothing or a new-zero for the number system at the end of infinity. please let me know what you think of it.

concept explained :
zero indicates nothing or absence of anything, before anything is counted, before anything is considered or imagined. in the mind, where enquiry, understanding and concepts are formed, before anything is imagined, when nothing exists, the total absence of anything is the zero concept denoted symbolically by 0.
see parts 2 & 3

43 impressions

=

Thirumala Raya Halemane

NEW ZERO part 2
in the integer number system, we have
0, 1, 2, 3, 4, .....,,,,,,, infinity
this is countable infinity.
any integer that can be imagined, however high is below this infinity.
this infinity is higher than any integer you can imagine.
any finite integer added to or subtracted from infinity is still infinity.
generally we consider that
infinity minus infinity is undefined. infinity + infinity is infinity.
we need to examine the number concept more carefully at infinity.

question: what is beyond infinity ?
answer: nothing, because infinity accommodates all possible integers below it.

claim : this is a new concept of "nothingness", different from the zero in the beginning which indicates absence of anything. let us call this "nothingness beyond infinity" or "nobi", we will need a new symbol for it.

nobi indicated that the number system is full, closed, complete. the interval from 0 to nobi is a closed interval, although 0 to infinity is an open interval.

if you add anything to infinity you get nobi
so, infinity + finite = nobi
infinity + infinity = nobi
infinity + 0 = nobi
anything + nobi = nobi
nobi + nobi = nobi
nobi - 0 = nobi
nobi - finite = nobi
nobi - infinity = nobi

49 impressions

=

Thirumala Raya Halemane

NEW ZERO part 3

nobi - nobi = 0 or nobi ? (it is impossible to deplete nobi by subtraction ?)

the above properties, especially nobi - anything = nobi indicates that nobi is not the same as zero. this new concept of nothingness is to indicate the fullness of the infinity integers below it. infinity itself is an "open" concept, nobi is used to "close" it.

question : what is beyond nobi ?
answer: what cannot be imagined

regards
raya

ps: we can think similar new-zeroes at the end of other uncountable infinities also. are these new nothings or new-zeroes are all the same ? the following discussion about hindu philosophy made this idea of new-zero for number system emerge. i added it here for your curiosity.

60 impressions

=+=

(3B) my 2026 February 17 email message to Shree Guru Sri. H.H. Ramakrishnanda Saraswathi Swamiji (Sankaracharya of SriVidhya Peetam.) Vedaravishangar - Sisya of H. H. Swamiji with Subject: NEW ZERO NOTHINGNESS CONCEPT EXPLAINED = Fwd: new zero after infinity for number system, makes it closed, complete, perfect, (on seeing his LinkedIn post about Shunyam, and my comments there as in 3A) 

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Thirumala Raya Halemane <trhal...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2026 at 11:10 AM
Subject: NEW ZERO NOTHINGNESS CONCEPT EXPLAINED = Fwd: new zero after infinity for number system, makes it closed, complete, perfect
To: H.H.Ramakrishnananda Saraswathi Swamiji - Vedaravi <vedarav...@gmail.com>
Cc: ..

Dear Sir Shree Ji Sir avarugaLu, 

FYI, please see below, it is about a NEW ZERO. 

THANK YOU.

PLEASE FEEL FREE TO COMMENT, give FEEDBACK.

I APPRECIATE IT.

I searched for this old email, it is from 2010, and forwarded it,

after seeing your recent linkedin post about SHUNYAM, namely,

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7429488973472784384/

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/vedaravishangar_%E0%A5%90-%E0%A4%B6%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%A6-%E0%A4%B6%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%A6-%E0%A4%B6%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%B6%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%9A%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%A4-activity-7429488973472784384-DKYh?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop&rcm=ACoAAACVNkIB_ZJcedwu3JENSEE-94tZSgkrqz0

it is a VERY NICE POST, PLEASURE TO READ. THANK YOU.

PLEASE KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.

Our Many Thanks, Regards and Best Wishes

raya

(dr thirumala raya halemane)

13 eagles Pass, Princeton, NJ 08540

ps = 

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===========================

(also forwarded my old emails from 2010, as in (2) and (1)

=+=

(2) my old email to Shree Prof  R T Bumby Ji, from 2010 August 14 with Subject: new zero after infinity for number system, makes it closed, complete, perfect

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Thirumala Raya Halemane <trhal...@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 5:02 PM
Subject: new zero after infinity for number system, makes it closed, complete, perfect
To: Prof. R. T. Bumby <bu...@math.rutgers.edu>

dear prof. r t bumby,

my name is dr thirumala raya halemane, i was a teaching assistant for your undergraduate math course in spring 1981 (i was a postdoc in theoretical physics at the time). recently, in 2008, i had stopped by your office at hill center to say hello. i was teaching part time at rutgers, in statistics, and, in ece departments.

i have the following idea for a new concept of nothing or a new-zero for the number system at the end of infinity. please let me know what you think of it.

concept explained :
zero indicates nothing or absence of anything, before anything is counted, before anything is considered or imagined. in the mind, where enquiry, understanding and concepts are formed, before anything is imagined, when nothing exists, the total absence of anything is the zero concept denoted symbolically by 0.

in the integer number system, we have
0, 1, 2, 3, 4, .....,,,,,,, infinity
this is countable infinity.
any integer that can be imagined, however high is below this infinity.
this infinity is higher than any integer you can imagine.
any finite integer added to or subtracted from infinity is still infinity.
generally we consider that
infinity minus infinity is undefined. infinity + infinity is infinity.
we need to examine the number concept more carefully at infinity.

question: what is beyond infinity ?
answer: nothing, because infinity accommodates all possible integers below it.

claim : this is a new concept of "nothingness", different from the zero in the beginning which indicates absence of anything. let us call this "nothingness beyond infinity" or "nobi", we will need a new symbol for it.

nobi indicated that the number system is  full, closed, complete. the interval from 0 to nobi is a closed interval, although 0 to infinity is an open interval.

if you add anything to infinity you get nobi
so, infinity + finite = nobi
      infinity + infinity = nobi
      infinity + 0 = nobi
      anything + nobi = nobi
      nobi + nobi = nobi
      nobi - 0 = nobi
      nobi - finite = nobi
      nobi - infinity = nobi
      nobi - nobi = 0 or nobi  ? (it is impossible to deplete nobi by subtraction ?)
     
the above properties, especially nobi - anything = nobi indicates that nobi is not the same as zero. this new concept of nothingness is to indicate the fullness of the infinity integers below it. infinity itself is an "open" concept, nobi is used to "close" it.

question : what is beyond nobi ?
answer: what cannot be imagined

regards

raya

ps: we can think similar new-zeroes at the end of other uncountable infinities also. are these new nothings or new-zeroes are all the same ? the following discussion about hindu philosophy made this idea of new-zero for number system emerge. i added it here for your curiosity.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(the added discussion is in (1) below) 

=+=

 

(1) my several old email interactions with Shree Prasad Bhargava Ji in 2010 August with Subject: Re: nirguNa, also touching budhism, also copied to various others

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Thirumala Raya Halemane <trhal...@gmail.com>

Date: Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 11:50 AM
Subject: nirguNa and budhism
To: Kavi Halemane <khal...@gmail.com>, "Halemane, Kavi" <Kavi.H...@umusic.com>
Cc: "Prof. B. N. Hebbar" <bnhe...@gwu.edu>, Shilpi Halemane <shi...@gmail.com>, Usha Halemane <uhal...@gmail.com>, Shankar Bhatk <shanka...@yahoo.com>, "K.PRA...@gmail.com" <K.Pra...@gmail.com>, "K.Raghunandan" <k.ragh...@verizon.net>, H V Rangachar <hvran...@gmail.com>, Nirmal Choubey <nirmal_...@yahoo.com>, Raghavan Pratiwadi <rnpra...@gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Thirumala Raya Halemane <trhal...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: nirguNa
To: Prasad Bhargava <prasad....@gmail.com>


dear prasad,

okay, that is a good way of putting it that you stated. i guess we can say that

nirguNa is the nothingness that exists beyond and indicates the fullness of pUrnaguNa. then the concept is perfect, flawless, and, complete.

i thought of writing the succinct summary as a q/a session as follows --

question: what is the nature of the all pervading paramaathma or god ?
answer: pUrNa guNa, flawless, everything, so has to be infinite

question: what is beyond all the imaginable infinities that are attributed to       him as pUrNa guNa?
answer : nothingness or nirguna which is in god also. it is not the nothingness that indicates empty, it is the nothingness that exists beyond fullness.

question : what is even further beyond ?
answer : only god or what we cannot imagine can be further beyond.

we enquire, conceptualize and understand, think and feel, gain knowledge and experience, attach and detach, desire and sacrifice, action and no action, eat, work and rest, love and sex, raise family, do charity, help the community, country, humanity, engage and diengage, learn and teach, meditate and pray, get jnaana, develop bhakthi, follow truth and dharma, we live a full life, each person has his or her own choice of paths in life, that may take him up or down in the journey of the soul, in its self-awareness and through various stages of spiritual attainment, through multiple janmas (births) as per karma and the sanatana dharma principles, we may finally get to the point where the grace of god acts to attain moksha, all happening as per the jeewa swabhava, there is no surprise or randomness at the highest level.

i am also done. i enjoyed the discussion. thanks a lot.

regards
raya
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Prasad Bhargava <prasad....@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Raya,

This is my last email on the topic.  It can either be Nirguna or Purna guna.  If any one has any guna a tall  then he will not be nirguna.

Prasad

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 3:02 PM, Thirumala Raya Halemane <trhal...@gmail.com> wrote:

my dear sri prasad bhargava,

did i say no powers ? NO.
but you have also said god chooses not to intervene so as not to be partial, that karma theory has to be allowed to work, you wanted to be an atheist if god could be partial, which, of course, you said is not true. in such cases, you can say god is powerless or decides to be so.
 
is no-power or nothingness also possible ? YES, in nirguNa state

is there a difficulty in comprehending the two together ? MAY BE

i said "MAY BE" because it depends on where you put the nirguNa.

if you put the nirguNa as zero, before any guNa, as powerless and weak, you have a problem, that's what your response was. it is like a very fair-minded person being viewed as weak because he allows criticisms by customers, say, which other colleagues of his may not allow in order to show that they are powerful.

but we know that this would be a wrong impression about the fair-minded person. on other occasions he may show his strength by speaking for changes with his boss, that his other supposedly more powerful colleagues are afraid to point out. so, this is a case of perceiving the reality correctly in the mind.

if you put the nirguNa nature after and beyond the pUrNa guNa, as an addition to it, then there is no problem. that is like a powerful person who chooses to be quiet in a debate, who could intervene if he wanted, and, all the participants know that. then there is no problem. it is the status of the minds of the other participants that decides how they view that quiet (at the time) but strong person. their minds know he is not powerless or weak. he knows he is not weak and powerless, only choosing to be quiet.

so, and, that's why they say nirgUna is higher and beyond pUrNa guNa. it is a special concept place added after the infinity concept, not the usual zero in the beginning. so, may be, it is wrong to use the same zero or "0" for both, we can just say "nothingness beyond the infinity, beyond mental imagination", that is perhaps better.

what is after infinity ? we will say "NOTHING", because infinity includes everything. it is that "NOTHING", not the zero for absence of anything in the beginning. so, they are really two different concepts of shoonya or zero or nothing. the two zeroes or shoonyas are not the same. one is before anything is imagined. the other is for what is left after everything is imagined. so, we may need a new symbol for the latter !!!
 
they also say that the complete nature of god is beyond human imagination, cannot be fully grasped. if you can limit god by confining to your imagination, that's a limitation, everything we can say to "fix" it as well-defined is a limitation, even INFINITE is a concept deduced by the human mind, including the various types of infinities (countable infinity, then infinite types of uncountable infinities are there).

so if one is thinking, adding nirguNa status makes the concept of god smaller and weaker, then, you should stop at pUrNa guNa. if you can accept nirguNa as beyond pUrNa guNa, even greater, you can add that. what your mind can comprehend is what counts for you. enquiry, concepts and understanding are characteristics of the human mind. where do we want to stop ???

once again, thanks for the question.

just a small note about the buddha topic. i have a very high opinion of the dalai lama, he is not "weak", although he is in a tough spot. remember, the chinese destroyed their budhdhist monasteries and culture under the mao revolution, even in mainland china. he probably thinks that hindus and india are in much better shape or condition than tibet, he and his followers, so we do not his help with the media or the west, we can do it ourselves.

he would be right in assuming that we can take credit and give credit as and when appropriate -- we should be able to do that, to use facts more forcefully to achieve better and fairer situation, facing the 3Ms with truth, for dharma, which budhdhists believe in also, so we need to support each other.

budhdhism is under attack in the rest of asia also, just like hinduism is under attack. the same strategies of infiltration, engaging and subverting are used, pointing fingers elsewhere for the troubles, and on the victims, self-destruction is encouraged, the unrest in thailand is an example. i suspect a western hand behind the scenes, making use of maoists and others.

the west wants to culturally take over and control the east, (this is not new, but is continuing although colonial rule has ended, but uk and europe have not really decided to treat the rest of the world with mutual respect -- even usa they "use" by manipulation and influence, of its internal and external situations) and is using all covert, overt, psychology tactics, politics, economics, perception games, self-destruction inducing strategies.

that's why they have gone global with trade and technology, exercising control through your 3Ms of money, media, might, and also behind-the-scenes networking and manipulation of financial markets and political leaderships.

the east, which has been in subdued and victimized status for centuries, needs the interaction with the west for technology and development, and, so has to use it in the reverse direction, engage and influence and change the west, using the true merits of its rich philosophical, cultural, civilizational heritage, in which the indian contribution shines the brightest.

regards
raya
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:50 PM, Prasad Bhargava <prasad....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:26 PM, Thirumala Raya Halemane <trhal...@gmail.com> wrote:

hi prasad,


regarding confusion about zero and infinite, i also wondered about it for a moment, that is about using the concept of zero or nothingness as nirguNa to describe the infinite. nirguNa means no attributes or description, there is no word to describe it, nothing you can state or imagine, you cannot even say zero or you cannot say anything. -

 

YES - Such a god?  God with no powers!

 

if you say god does not have the ability or guNa to be a zero or nothing, but always has to be infinite, you are actually limiting the nature of god, one less guNa than we can imagine, then it is not "pUrNa guNa". so, i am arguing for a higher notion of god than what you are indicating.

Again - He has INFINITE gunas.  There is no beginning or end to his gunas.  All his infinite gunas are Purana and flawless.

regards
raya

Regards,
Prasad

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:26 PM, Thirumala Raya Halemane <trhal...@gmail.com> wrote:
hi prasad,

i agree with you, the dalai lama, and also western budhdhists, could have been more vocal about appreciating india's help, especially when he speaks to western media and leaders, it could have helped both him and the hindus in the west, to raise the respect in the minds of the west (giving shelter to the needy outsider without abusing them or taking unnecessary advantage is a hindu tradition).

but, dalai lama is very sharp and intuitive, his spirituality is strong, but as the leader of tibetans he has political responsibility also, he knows he has to tread carefully. we do not know what he says or feels privately when he meets people, press, leaders etc. also, indians in india do not pay too much attention to such verbal glorification, they go more by a person's personality in such matters. he is managing a very difficult situation.

regarding confusion about zero and infinite, i also wondered about it for a moment, that is about using the concept of zero or nothingness as nirguNa to describe the infinite. nirguNa means no attributes or description, there is no word to describe it, nothing you can state or imagine, you cannot even say zero or you cannot say anything.

you cannot even say "nothing" --- so it is a concept that is beyond human ability to grasp properly, if you can grasp it, there is something to it, then it is not zero or nothingness. it is that concept which is the sequence limit, when all the infinite attributes of paramaathma are taken away, that nothingness limit which cannot be described, that is the nirguNa nature of paramaathma from which everything emanates.

i think, remembering from what i read, there is a shloka in vedas or upanishads which says that, in the beginning there was nothing, from which all came. you have stated that god always existed, and, universe evolves continuously, and, even dissolves at the end of the kalpa. so, god has the ability to be the nothingness, it is an extra guNa of god in the purNa guNa nature.

if you say god does not have the ability or guNa to be a zero or nothing, but always has to be infinite, you are actually limiting the nature of god, one less guNa than we can imagine, then it is not "pUrNa guNa". so, i am arguing for a higher notion of god than what you are indicating.

but, thanks for your comment. i was not fully satisfied with my earlier statements about nirguNa. now, by adding this response to your comment, i feel that it is correct and complete.

regards
raya
------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------

 

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 11:33 AM, Prasad Bhargava <prasad....@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Raya - you are coming with a new definition for infinite? Infinity is not "0" rater it is INFINITE

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 5:33 PM, Thirumala Raya Halemane <trhal...@gmail.com> wrote:

dear prasad,

so, i think, logically and philosophically, it is okay. it is like separating jeewa moola and jeewa swabhaava which should include the jeewa's accumulated karma.

Jeewa moola is the ROOT OF JEEWA where as Jeewa Swabhava is the NATURE of the root Jeewa.

the buddha must have focussed and meditated on removing suffering, removing worldly bondage, peace and harmony, attaining buddha-hood or enlightenment through nirguNa paramaathma, without any connection to the pUrNa guNa nature, so he did not speak of god or bhakthi.

I am not to sure what Buddha focused or what he did not. 

On a different note:  Have you noticed that in spite of giving Shelter/Food/Clothing/ and other support to Dilai Lama and others, even to this day,  I have not seen them thanking India or Hindus for helping them at the time of their crisis.  More so when he speaks to the westren audience!!

raya

--
Dr. Thirumala Raya Halemane

--

Regards,
Prasad
609-969-3649

--
Dr. Thirumala Raya Halemane

--
Regards,
Prasad
609-969-3649

--
Dr. Thirumala Raya Halemane

--
Regards,
Prasad
609-969-3649

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 5:33 PM, Thirumala Raya Halemane <trhal...@gmail.com> wrote:

dear prasad,

here is an attempt to arrive at the notion of nirguNa paramaathma.

take the notion of god or paramaathma as one endowed with purNa guNa.
human beings are with guNas although not pUrNa, and we are accustomed into enquiring what is beyond the guNas, what or who is the holder or owner of the guNas etc, just likethe enquiry into the "who am i?" question which finally leads to the notion of self.

now apply the same logic process to pUrNa guNa paramAthma, and imagine what or who lies beyond all the guNas, even if guNas are infinite in number, counting it away one by one. in the final sequence limit, no guNa's are left, so it is zero or nirguNa, no worldly guNas, and the entity that is left we can finally identify as nirguNa paramathma or the knower or holder or owner of the pUrNa guNa swabhaava of the supreme being.

it is the part of paramaathma beyond the world, the moola or the origin, the "nothingness" from which all the knowing, all the awareness, all the attributes, all the jeewas started.

as an example, consider the space that is left when you erase a picture or even a point or a line drawn in a x-y graph. the picture or point or line is gone, nothing is visible, but the space that held the picture is there, so it is like the nirguNa part of the full picture, the imaginary outline which cannot be seen, since all lines have been erased, but it can be imagined in the mind only since you know what existed before.  but unlike paramaathma the picture does not have the ability to reappear on its own with full attributes.

so, i think, logically and philosophically, it is okay. it is like separating jeewa moola and jeewa swabhaava which should include the jeewa's accumulated karma.

the buddha must have focussed and meditated on removing suffering, removing worldly bondage, peace and harmony, attaining buddha-hood or enlightenment through nirguNa paramaathma, without any connection to the pUrNa guNa nature, so he did not speak of god or bhakthi.

raya

--
Dr. Thirumala Raya Halemane

--
Dr. Thirumala Raya Halemane

--
Dr. Thirumala Raya Halemane

--
Dr. Thirumala Raya Halemane

--
Dr. Thirumala Raya Halemane

===+++===

in the old photo here, from one of our visits, we see, my wife Usha's uncle kitta-appachchi Krishna Bhat & Gowri chikkamma aunt, that is my father-in-law Kailar Shanker Bhat's brother and his wife, they later moved from Kailar to nearby PunDikkaya, in Dakshina Kannada district, Karnataka state, TuLunaaDu region, India

[Thirumala Raya Halemane]

[Thirumala Raya Halemane]