{Bhakti Community} Material Suffering - Food for thought

[Bhakti Community]

Don't want to overwhelm but here is the first message on this group.
Hope you can find it interesting.



" When a devotee is thoroughly understanding the imminent dangers and
misery of the material existence devotees are humbled but that is
because he knows that I cannot protect myself from the sufferings; I
can’t; it is impossible, I am a jiva atma and the material energy is
pervading you in this existence, she is all powerful in that state.
When we chant the holy names we are taking shelter, we are praying for
mercy, it is not a ritual anymore, it is not just a regulative
principle, it is not just something else in our life, it is our focus,
it is our goal, it is the only means by which we can achieve something
that is real. If someone puts a gun to your head and said I am going
to shoot in five seconds how will you chant in that five seconds, you
won’t be thinking about the latest ISKCON gossip, you won’t be
thinking about how you are going to decorate your home tomorrow, you
won’t be thinking about your children’s education, hopefully you will
be thinking Krsna save me; Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare
Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare.

So if we are not learning about material existence then when
sufferings come, we will be bewildered, we will loose our faith, we
will not know what we are suppose to do, why is this happening to me,
how is this happening to me and how am I suppose to deal with it.
Materialistic people and even a neophyte devotees when they go through
tragic crisis which bring about suffering in their lives, they become
confused and bewildered by that suffering and what happens when there
is no suffering? when you actually have some temporary form of
enjoyment then you become even more confused and bewildered about what
you are suppose to do what your hopes truly are; so therefore Srila
Prabhupada very greatly emphasises we must discuss and understand the
nature of the miseries in the material existence so that when we are
suffering, we know what is happening and know what we suppose to do
about it and when we are enjoying, we understand what is happening and
what we are suppose to do about it. So it is very important that we
study these books and we understand how this material nature makes us
suffer."

- HH Radhanatha Swami.

[thecoolking]

Hare Krishna!!
Interesting article. I have few questions that I have not found
satisfactory answers.
1. Why is that so many people suff and yet so few come to the path of
bhakti?
2. What is the fate of that person (neophyte devotee) who is
suffering? BG says 4 kinds of people approach the Lord. So, what
happens to the devotee who is in distress and approaches Lord Sri
Krishna.

Ys.
Raj.

[bhakti-community]

Very nice article. If I could say what was the one thing that I have
learnt in the past 2 years, it is to see just how wrongly I derive
satisfaction from my current miserable condition. I.e., my
intelligence is telling me that my condition is miserable -- I am
going to experience old age and death against my wishes, I am going to
see the suffering of near and dear ones -- see them fall sick and
die. Yet, my mind is asking me to enjoy Iron Man 2 & popcorn. I can
see that it makes no sense, and yet I am drawn to the chaat items at
Jalsa (near Pooja Grocery) like a moth to fire.

I can also see that the waves of sense enjoyment are inversely
proportional to association with devotees, and the intensity of
chanting. In the weeks when I am spending less time with devotees and
my chanting is weakening, my satisfaction with my miserable condition
increases. I've seen this not just now, but in the past also.

Hare Krishna.
Balaji Natarajan

On May 17, 7:52 pm, Bhakti Community <mplskir...@gmail.com> wrote:

[James F. Rodriguez]

What I like about the article is:

"...when they go through tragic crisis which bring about suffering in
their lives, they become confused and bewildered ... when you actually
have some temporary form of enjoyment then you become even MORE

confused and bewildered about what you are suppose to do what your
hopes truly are"

It's always easy to turn to Krsna in times of suffering, but not so
much when there are times that are given to enjoy. I think it's
awesome that the BG spells out what we are to do in times like these,
offer the fruits to Krsna and not keep them for our own. Certainly a
tough concept to grasp in practice, especially when we feel we are due
the items that are given to us for temporary enjoyment, but great to
be reminded of the mask that comes more deceiving in the form of
positive things than negative. Perhaps the struggle is I don't feel
due the suffering aspects that come in life and I seek help through
Krsna almost by default, but when good things happen I'd like to say I
own them rather than not, which BG says is not in line with our true
nature.

Thanks for sharing.
Hare Krsna.

--
James F. Rodriguez
B.S. Biomedical Engineering
University of Minnesota - Institute of Technology
rodr...@umn.edu
C: (612) 978-3452

http://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesfrodriguez

[dave kemnitz]

Having been born into the material world we are like a fish out of water--we are out of our element. No matter what arrangement you make for the fish, he will not be happy until he is back in his element.  We will not be happy until we are back in our element the spiritual world.

 

So, in reality, everyone is suffering to different degrees.  The cure is Krishna consciousness.  Krishna consciousness is love.  When we are in love we are able to tolerate many unpleasant things.  Krishna Bhakti is the ultimate true love.  Everyone in the spiriutal world has it in full, but in the material world it is a rare thing acquired by qualification or causeless mercy.

 

"Fate,"  the karma we are living out, is affected when a person chooses to develop a more Krishna centered life.  Turning to Krishna is compared to unplugging a fan.  When we unplug a fan it still spins for a while but it is loosing its momentum and eventually winds down to a halt.  This is the fate of a devotee.  Most often, however, we are not perfect devotees and are unsteady in our consciousnes.  So our fans are being unplugged and then plugged back in  again and again, until we are finally able to just leave it unplugged.

 

Even a pure devotee may be appear to be suffering great hardships, but to him they are merely challenges to his sincerity by Krishna, and if his love is true he can transcend and pass the test--he enjoys this interaction with Krishna. 

 

Dvarakadhisa das

[Carolyn Holm]

Hare Krsna, It is really nice hearing everyone respond with their own personal realizations, I hope we can discuss like this more! For me:

When we chant the holy names we are taking shelter, we are praying for
mercy, it is not a ritual anymore, it is not just a regulative
principle, it is not just something else in our life, it is our focus,
it is our goal,

it is the only means by which we can achieve something
that is real. (ie eternal and fully satisfying, not temporary, not based on false i.d. with the temporary body)

Srila Prabhupada very greatly emphasises we must discuss and understand the
nature of the miseries in the material existence so that when we are
suffering, we know what is happening and know what we suppose to do
about it and when we are enjoying, we understand what is happening and
what we are suppose to do about it. So it is very important that we
study these books and we understand how this material nature makes us
suffer.

Hearing Bhagavatam stories, Krsna uses their examples (many times Demigods, big people) to teach us lessons and reveal the glory of Himself, His devotees and devotional service. I need to hear more, with chanting that is the thing I feel most happiness and strength from. Without, I am just seeing life from whatever colored eyeglasses I am wearing and not from Krsna's perfect perspective.There is so much suffering in the world(s), only Bhagavatam has the Absolute salve...

your servant,
Carolyn

[Bhakti Community]

Raj Prabhu,

Here are my thoughts on your question. Devotees, Please feel free to
comment or correct me.

Most of the people in this world are absorbed in the modes of passion
and ignorance. It is very difficult to understand why one is suffering
and to take up the process of devotional service. Usually the path
followed by such people after repeated failures and thus frustrated in
enjoying material life is “jnana” or renouncing everything path
because of their previous bad experiences to enjoy life. Thus as Krsna
says in BG 7.19, after many many life times such a jnani (renouncer)
comes to realization that Krsna is the Absolute Truth and thus become
“jnanavan” – The enlightened. The other class of people who come to
Bhakti directly are very fortunate people who get in touch with a pure
devotee and follow his instructions. These are the direct and indirect
paths to the highest path of Bhakti Yoga.

Everyone suffers only because of ignorance, when actually the spirt
soul never suffers in reality. As one gets purified by the process of
bhakti yoga we realize more about Krsna, and our position as a spirit
soul in relation to Him and we naturally transcend the state of
material suffering. I believe as practicing devotees we have knowledge
about this process. This helps us to understand that getting closer to
Krsna is the real solution in such suffering periods. But general
people who do not have much knowledge about KC cannot come to this
conclusion easily unless they have pious backgrounds or have patiently
heard from a devotee. So, hence book distribution, prasadam
distribution and nama hatta programs become very important to bring
them to this point of knowledge and higher taste.

To the degree one identifies with material body and mind, so also his
suffering is great. But still since we are so habituated to live by
our external sense perceptions its quite difficult to always live with
that conscious understanding. Ultimately, "we make habits and habits
make us"

Regarding “fate”, such a practicing devotee will continue on the path
from where he left in the previous life until he reaches the perfect
stage. (BG.2.40)


Balaji Prabhu. Thank you for sharing your personal thoughts. What you
explained is the situation all us practicing devotees trying to
overcome indivudial battles in our spiritual life, sometime we win the
battle and sometimes we learn. My realization is understanding of
knowledge is important but more important is realization, which comes
with practice. One is like window shopping and other is like
purchasing the item and having it in our hands. To purchase we need to
pay the price, we can only pay when we get it from Krsna. So, we need
to work for Krsna, engage in His service and become His friend by
helping Him in his mission. And suddenly all the austere challenges
become very easy to practice by His mercy. This is possible only by
mercy of Krsna. So we can be hopeful in that sense.

your servant,
tulasi vallabha das

> > - HH Radhanatha Swami.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Raj Addepalli]

Hare Krishna!!
Thank you Tulasi prabhuji. So, according to BG, it is our own
perception that causes the suffering when there is no reason for it.
Does that sound correct?


Regards,
Raj.

[Bhakti Community]

Hare Krsna Raj Prabhu.

It is actually not any intellectual pyschological thinking but
identification with reality. I will give you a very gross example (and
I beg forgiveness for choosing such an example, but it helps me to
make the point clearly I think).

If we have a free will to choose to live in public toilet building
(with all the foul smell and with several people) compared to a nice
palatial building, any intelligent person will tolerate the time he
has to spend in public toilet (for whatever reason he may be in),
quickly finishes his business knowing that its temporary and leaves
happily all while thinking about the palace, how to decorate it, how
to enjoy with family etc.

But, if one does not have any knowledge about that choice and aims to
survive in that atmosphere (public toilet), then one has to learn to
fight or co-operate with others to establish supremacy for best
lifestyle possible, which is really impossible because the place is
designed to be impure. May be sometimes he may feel relieved but most
of the times he has to struggle.

So, as Dvarakadish Prabhu said and also from BG 2.13 which advises us
to tolerate, we don't belong here, but we are here somehow by our
choice. Krsna influences His external energy and it makes us to
identity with this body, world and so on. But at the same time we have
a choice to get out of this world by taking to Krsna consciousness
knowing that to to be the best and wonderful alternative. That being
said, for most (including me) its not so easy to realize that the
material world is as miserable as our public toilet example. It always
provides us with alternatives to be enjoyer and this is the product of
powerful external energy's influence on our ego, mind, intelligence
etc. So, we end up making choices hoping to enjoy here happily, and
hence we live in false reality. The only time we understand the
factual reality is when something deep happens or awakens in our life
and even if one has to go through some temporary suffering, he really
doesn't see it as suffering because his focus is on spiritual world. I
believe its like every patient in the hospital gets operated with that
faith, that he can live happily after the surgery.

Hope it is clear. Sorry again for bad example. That is why in the
original article the stress was placed on reading Srila Prabhupada
books (esp. Bhagavatam), chanting which helps us to focus and slowly
get attracted to the spiritual world and also simultaneously
understand the miserable nature of material world.

> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Natarajan, Balaji]

Tulasi Prabhu,

Your example is apt. I remember reading a similar example from Prabhupada regarding Pig in yucky environs. The pig is very happy in its yucky environment, because it does not know about a better place.

I googled, and here is Prabhupada's quote from the website (http://www.srilaprabhupad.com/dloads/2010/release15/lectures.htm):

"But because these people are mayayapahrta-jnana, they are accepting suffering as pleasure. This is called maya. He's suffering, but he is thinking it is a good pleasure. Just like the pig. He's eating stool, and he's thinking he's enjoying life. This is called ignorant. He does not know that he's suffering. Maya has given his body to suffer, but even in the pig's body, he's thinking that is enjoying life. This is called maya. Mohitam nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam [Bg. 7.13]. This is called illusion. Illusion. Everyone in this material world, they are suffering in different grades. Just like in the prison house there are different grades of prisoner: first class, second class, third class. But if the first-class prisoner thinks they are enjoying life, that is ignorance. He should know that he's in the prison house. In the prison house where is there enjoyment? It is all suffering. Maybe first-class suffering, (laughter) but it is suffering. So they are all in the darkness, and Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Nityananda Prabhu appeared to dissipate, tamo-nudau, to dissipate this darkness of the whole human society. That is Their kindness."


Hare Krishna,
Balaji Natarajan

> > "jnanavan" - The enlightened. The other class of people who come to

[Raj Addepalli]

Thank you Tulasi prabhu and Balaji prabhu.

[G Carlson]

Suffering is always for a reason, but that reason is rarely apparent.

The cause of our suffering is our sinful activities.

Identifying with this body is an indirect cause- because we believe our mind, body and senses are "me", then out of a desire to get pleasure we answer their demands.

Gaura