Re: Trading

[Lance Runolfsson]

On Friday, August 3, 2012 9:15:33 PM UTC-7, Wolfe13 wrote:

When trading is it fair market, BGG market, eBay, Amazon or supply and demand. Reason I ask is it seems I can not get a trade to work for me and the other party... frustrated

Its supply and demand and greed. I never have problems trading something with a higher BGG value for something with a lower significantly lower BGG value. OTOH trades with a rough parity of value are often turned down.

[Wolfe13]

It should be listed in the terms and agreements... Lol. So you have to basically give up trading equal... wonderful

[Jonathan Franklin]

I think that the issue is often postage. Why would I trade a $30 game for a $30 dollar game when I have to pay $12 to USPS?

Use the trade finder to limit to your state and skim for local trades.

The other time trades work is when people value things differently, which is easier for OoP games or obscure imports.

- JF

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[Trump]

Trading is HARD on BGG... but not impossible.  If you're lucky, maybe 30% of your trade suggestions will even get answered.  Then it comes to what kind of trader they are... and you are.  I'd say at least 75% of the replies you get will be from traders who think they're involved in some sort of gamer's stock market.  They think their game is worth $30 and yours is worth $29 so the story ends right there.  It's like they can't turn off their gamer brain and they're deathly afraid of being out $1.  I think they're looking at it all wrong.  I PLAY GAMES.  I don't collect them.  I don't keep unplayed games in a special cellar so that they can age to perfection.  An unplayed game goes OUT the door and is replaced by something else that I think I will play.  If I pay $30 for a game, play it a few times, and then trade it off for a $25 value, have I lost money?  No.  I paid $5 to play game #1 a few times.  Fair enough.  Or another way I look at it, am I REALLY better off with a $50 game that sits on my shelf month after month unplayed than I would be for a $40 game that's getting played every other week?

OK, I'll step down off of my soapbox now.  That rant has worn me out and it's time to hit the sack.  :)

[RhodesN7]

Hey Wolfe13! This thread caught my eye because of our current trade negotiations. Turns out it's your thread!

My answer to this question may surprise you, especially since our trade seems to be leaning towards a BGG market value in my favor.

I put a lot of stock in the BGG market. Yes, there are people who I'd say charge too much for a game, but the truth is I can't hold too much against them if they're actually able to sell it for the inflated price. The market dictates the value. If it sells, then clearly the seller judged the market correctly. Luckily, you can check what a game has sold for in the past, not just the prices people have -attempted- to get for them.

Maybe I'm a little biased. Check my sales history and you'll see I've made a profit off some rare games in the past. When I trade games I will take their rarity into account almost every time. There have been exceptions, like when there's a new game that I MUST get my hands on (Super Dungeon Explore- I'm looking at you...)

When it comes down to it- if I was trading with a close personal friend, I wouldn't care if my game was worth more than his, especially If I was trading something I don't play much and I know he would enjoy it. Here on BGG, it's more of a business. These aren't people you'll likely get the chance to sit down and play a game with. You've got to decide what kind of balance you like in your trades. Either way, try not to sweat it!

[Wolfe13]

Everyone thanks!

My issue is I have 2 complete copies of Dune (1 Sandworm and the other "Sandworm" but it is in a generic Avalon Hill box) and both expansions. I also have triplicates of all components, so If I had another game board and box I would have 3 games.

I fell that is worth, for sake of saying... Whitechapel, Eclipse and Alien Frontiers. Why you ask? The trader would get 1 complete copy he then could "flip" the expansions for $100 on eBay or $90+ on BGG. Am I being unreasonable? Is my "Dune" not worth what I think? Is it expecting to much to have the other person see that market to market they are getting a steal? Or am I way off base?

[Wolfe13]

Hey RhodesN7!

 notice this was not about you :) Your trade is honest and I appreciated it.

I did respond to you, but BGG went down and I forgot it was going to do that... :)

[Wolfe13]

Also I put high value on the lamination and your extra work "pimping" Rex. I appreciate that and so to me, my Shadows over Camelot: Knights, may be worth more than base Rex but you make it close enough for me.
Only prob is it is part of a non-reponsive trade and I strive to be as honest as you do, so I have to wait for a response and/or an auto decline.

I also think highly of your honesty. You could have told me the figs were worth a lot less but you did not. Was it a test, no. It was what you thought they were worth. I had an idea, but I wanted you assessment and you were honest. I really appreciated that!

On Saturday, August 4, 2012 12:22:52 AM UTC-6, RhodesN7 wrote:

[Wolfe13]

Thanks Getaklue, (how ironic your name in this situation. Lol)

Yes you are correct but I was talking expansions and right now the BGG price is $90= (I know that is value but not trade value) but as of 2 hours ago that was the only way to get the expansion, besides trading (so my reference to supply and demand)

Trump,

I agree if I am not playing a certain game I don't have a lot of value placed on it and may just want it so I will trade the farm, in the eyes of the recipient (supply and demand again)

On Saturday, August 4, 2012 12:37:27 AM UTC-6, Getaklue wrote:

Sorry to say it - but I think you are off base.  I routinely go to the GenCon auction and have seen copies of Dune sell for as little as $40.  I recently picked up a copy of Dune and both expansions on-line (but not Ebay) for $100.  If you are patient and do a lot of digging you can get some pretty good prices on those titles.  In fact, I would think that I was getting a STEAL if someone wanted to trade Whitechapel, Eclipse and Alien Fronties for my copy of Dune and both expansions.  Sorry but you may need to look at the lowest, common prices for what you want to trade and not the pie-in-the-sky prices that sometimes you see on Ebay or BGG.  Trust me, I've over-valued some of my games in the past too!

Getaklue

[belial1134]

Non-Responsive trade has and probably will always be an issue.

 

I'd recommended checking the monthly flea market geeklist (people list items they are looking to trade, some times selling too, and everyone is excellent about responding)

 

I'd post the link but BGG is still down.  You should be able to find the one for August pretty easily though. If not, send me a GM :)

[RhodesN7]

I totally forgot it was going to go down too. I don't usually post here while it's down but I thought I'd chime in since I saw you. I'll check your BGG reply in the morning hopefully!

It's hard for me to comment on your Dune trade. I know Whitechapel is pretty rare these days and goes up in value all the time. Eclipse DID just come back in print, but even in print it's worth a hefty sum. I haven't followed Dune's value in the market at all.

I know personally, it would be hard for me to trade three full size games for one, not matter the value. I put a lot of faith in a game every time I trade for it. Once, I decided to dive head first into the Call of Cthulhu LCG. Traded like 7 games for the core game and like a hundred expansions. While it was a fair trade, value wise, I've always regretted it. Assuming the games being traded aren't bargain bin trash, I'm never certain there's one game that's worth trading a handful of games for. It my sound like i'm flip-flopping from my previous statement, but there comes a point where I have to consider the amount of fun I'll actually get from a game compared to 2 to 5 other games.

Basically, I think value should play a part, but it's hard to rule out PERSONAL value too... Tough call.

[Wolfe13]

No I don't think your flip flopping, more like no one is understanding what I am actually trading (In my mind! Any Eddie Izzard fans?)

2 games (1 can be "flipped") 2 expansions, very rare. Enough components to make a 3rd or keep you in player shields till the really make an updated "Dune" Lo. So my mind there are 4 games 2 of considerable rarity that I am trading not 1... Is that where I am off, my suppositions?

[Wolfe13]

One side note, the person I am doing this hypothetical trade with had Dune and both expansion on his want list,  #1. The "love to have', or "the need to have" semantics ecape me right now...;)

[Getaklue]

In general, I don't think the BGG Marketplace is always a great indicator of what a game is worth.  It's more a reflection of the maximum price that someone might consider buying a game for.  For instance, if you wanted to buy a game and people were selling it in the Marketplace for $50, $60 and $70 (assuming similar conditions) you would buy it for $50.  So someone coming along would look at the Marketplace and say - this game sells for $60 - 70; and you would say - "That's crazy, I just bought it for $50."  The Marketplace is just a snapshot in time.  The best deals have already been sold, so now you are looking at the prices that make people pause before pulling the trigger - or the totally overpriced items that no one is going to buy.

What are the Dune game and expansions worth to you?  Maybe you bought them for $100 - so getting Eclipse and Whitechapel in trade would be a good deal.  Versus trying to get Eclipse, Whitechapel and Alien Frontiers because you've seen Dune and the expansions sell for high prices a few times.

Unless you desperately want a game, patience is a key virtue when it comes to trading!.

[Getaklue]

If you really want to determine what Dune and the expansions are worth, but them up for auction on GeekBay.  Once you've sold them - and I'm sure you'll sell them for a decent price, go out and buy the games your interested in.  You'll have determined what the current market price is and have cash to buy the games you want in the Marketplace.

[Wolfe13]

Getaklue,

That is probably the most ahah moment I have had during this whole trading thing, but on eBay the prices are similar and you can't get it on Amazon, so at this time, there is no other benchmark. If the BGG was way lower, the eBay purchasers are just being naive, but it has steadily sold for that. So during this time the demand is high but I don't see the supply as high. So I think while White (rare out of print game $100, to me), Eclipse (in print, found it for $69 with $13 shipping, so I place it at $80) and Alien ( $40 best price to demand I could come up with) = $100+$80+$40= $210. As of now and the last 2 days, the only way to get the expansions for dune was BGG $90+ or eBay $100+ both expansion equal the trade alone but you get 2 copies of Dune, one you can also flip, and components galore. Maybe I am just plain wrong but I see it being sided to the person getting the "Dune" trade lot.

[Wolfe13]

Getaklue,

Another outstanding idea, but just what is GeekBay? Unabashedly new to this, as RhodesN7 can attest... :)

[belial1134]

Dune is available on Amazon..2 copies, the lowest is $150+$5.99 shipping.  Of course as others have said, that is asking price and not what it necessarily sells for...but it is on there.

Geekbay is the section on BGG where people list games for sale (usually in an auction format) via a geeklist

[Getaklue]

When I said Geekbay, I just meant running an auction for the games - similar to the other auctions being run in the Buying and Selling section of BGG.  You say that the only way to get the game and expansions right now is either BGG or Ebay.  But you seem to be focused on what you can get them for right now.  The person you want to trade with may realize that they can get a better deal if they are willing to wait or look around a little bit.  I bought both Dune expansions on Ebay a couple of years ago for $80 - $40 a piece - and they were both in the shrink!  Now that was a great deal for me.  But it goes to show you what can happen if you are patient. 

It seems that when you are trying to put together a trade you want the maximum price you find in the marketplace for your games and the minimum price that you can find for their games. 

Like I mentioned earlier, what did you pay for Dune and the 2 expansions?  Be honest with yourself - if you got them for $150, should someone trade you $200 in games for them?  Maybe you worked hard and got a great deal to get them.  The same applies to your potential trading partner.  I think maybe you are being greedy - basing what you want on maximum trade value for your games and minimum for theirs.  Trade them one copy of Dune and the expansion (forget about the 2nd copy and extras for the moment).  Would you be happy with Eclipse and Whitechapel for them?  Then why also try to get Alien Frontiers?  Trade the 2nd copy of Dune for Alien Frontiers.

I probably have 75% of my trades accepted - you just have to be realistic about what you are trading.

Best Regards,

Getaklue

[RhodesN7]

I would NEVER trust Amazon prices to give a fair idea of a games value.

It may sound like a conspiracy theory or something, but the prices some board games are listed for on Amazon...well, I can only imagine they're some sort of front for a money laundering scheme. On regular occasion I'll see a game that would sell for $100 max be put up for over $1000 on Amazon. Just crazy.

Back to this Dune trade- has the other person in the trade expressed interest in flipping an extra copy of Dune for profit? I know i've accepted trades like that in the past, especially when I'm almost guaranteed to be able to trade/sell the items being offered, but for some people that's adding extra work onto their end of the trade. It's hard to put a price on the effort it takes to sell/flip an item sometimes. I had a copy of Brass, new in shrink that I bought thinking I'd be able to turn it around easy peasy. The market lies sometimes. :P

It's just by pure coincidence that I bring this up, Wolfe13, but I would actually guess that Dune's value would be lessened now that Rex is in print. I know the demand isn't as high for some since Rex is a sort of re-imagining of the Dune mechanics.

[Wolfe13]

belial1134,

So it is, but that is Dune. The expansion Dune: Spice Harvest is $199 (ridonkulas!) on Amazon and there is no Dune: The Duel, so again that satisfies my "supply and demand" theory, which just makes me feel is it all not worth it? And I said the 2 expansion, at $100 are worth all 3 games. and I also saw he had it the top of his want list, so I guess I am just being to realistic hopping to get partial, rare, value of these items. I assume then $50 for each exp and $50 for Dune + $50 for other copy of Dune and components. That is half actual value and still equal to what is being traded, and I assume still way off. That is why I only contact people who have Dune and exp at the top of Wanted the #1 selection on wishlist. Seems even that is asking to much.

I am also the original owner and purchaser of all games and components. I never paid over $100 for any of it. Well maybe buying the backup components, because Avalon Hill was going under and I thought I would never get any more components when the originals wore out or got damaged... hehe, so with that, yes I spent more than $100. But in a "supply and demand" scenario, price paid for supply is not relevant except in factoring the "demand" price. Is that were my thinking goes.. whoooie?

[Getaklue]

Like I said, I spend a lot of time watching auctions (both live at conventions like GenCon and on-line).  I just so happens that I have been watching Dune and the expansions, because I'm thinking of selling an extra copy of both Dune and the 2 expansions at GenCon in a couple of weeks.  I was reviewing my notes from the last few years and only 2 years ago, a copy of Dune and Spice Harvest sold at the Con for $75.  The year before copies of Dune sold for $75, $38 and $125.  I haven't looked at last year's numbers yet, but I'm expecting them to be similar.  Stop looking at all of the on-line prices and decide what you would be willing to part with your games for.  If you payed $100 for Dune and the expansions and they're not getting played, trade them for $150 in games you will play - instead of trying to get $200 in games.  Or be patient and spend the next 6 months getting that $200 in trade value.  You can probably do it - it's just a matter if you want the games now or later!

Good luck with your trades!

[Wolfe13]

Getaklue,

Thanks for all the advice! So it seems I am right, it is not worth it. I have to sit on these and go through all the eBay crap and their ilk, or sell all this for sub-par trade value. Not going to happen, so again bottom line unless you want a downgraded trade don't initiate any trades. Follow belial1334's  advice, try the flea market. Yes I am sure the hypothetical person would except this all for Whitechapel or Eclipse/Alien, but I would not.

Thanks everyone for all your suggestion and input, I will let all my trades, except one ;), auto-decline and stop trying to contact them. To much damn headache for an old retired disable Navy vet. Thanks again!!

[belial1134]

Amazon is not the best place to look for out of print games - I've had many I sold on eBay or on BGG which weren't on there.

I think the tough part with trading Dune w/ expansions for 3 games is I believe most people are looking to play games like Alien Frontiers, Letters from Whitechapel, and Eclipse more than the Dune bundle. Many people might just be content with base Dune or just Rex would satisfy that itch.  It may actually be easier to sell the Dune bundle and then use that money to buy games you want. Finding that one person who wants Dune & expansions and has 3 games you want (and willing to do the trade) could be pretty slim and very time consuming

On Saturday, August 4, 2012 2:34:26 AM UTC-5, Wolfe13 wrote:

[Wolfe13]

Yes you are correct, but they did have it as their #1 want, that is the only reason I contacted them. SO one would think that they have a "demand" for it, alas it is not so... :(
And how funny on Pandora, Iron Maiden (yes old people listen to them, if we grew up with them) is singing "To Tame a Land". The bands tribute to Dune...Lol

[belial1134]

I was typing my response when you posted yours :)

Yeah, try the Flea Market - you never know, if anything maybe someone will make a cash offer

Good luck :)

[RhodesN7]

I don't see any reason why your Dune trade couldn't work out. It's a bad sign that they aren't replying (in my experience, if a trade succeeds, it succeeds within the first 24 hours) but I've had success by just messaging people and re-iterating my interest in the trade. I know I'm much more likely to accept a trade that the other person has made an attempt to show their genuine interest. A more personal message/e-mail goes a long way.

If you look at the trade system on a case-by-case basis, then yea, it can get pretty disheartening and headache inducing, however, through persistence and patience I don't think I've ever been forced to hold on to a game that I REALLY wanted to trade off. Seriously, if you're dead set on getting that value out of your Dune collection, I'd bet you can do it. First of all, it sounds reasonable. Second, I've had much crazier deals work out. Even if only a handful of people have Dune at the top of their wishlist today, check back in a week and you'd be surprised how often new potentials traders show up.

[Wolfe13]

Good advice Chris. I will do both, but I still will stop trying to contact the other trades, and you will get your Knights, because I "VALUE" the effort and time you put into Rex and I am willing to pay for it. I guess that is just me. I still have to let it auto-decline. I am never going to be who I am not.

[NuMystic]

It's been mentioned already but is worth repeating…

Asking prices anywhere have nothing to do with market value. It doesn't matter what listings are like on Amazon, BGG Marketplace, or Ebay… anyone can ask for anything they want, that doesn't mean buyers are paying it. 

The only figure that matters when assessing actual market value are the prices something has SOLD for recently. Two best tools for researching this are:

- Ebay - Search for item. Click "completed listings" on the left. Red prices didn't sell, Green prices are actual sales completed. Ignore the lowest and highest and average the prices in the middle. 

- Spielboy - BGG Board Game Pricing Utility which gives you a complete graphical snapshot of selling prices from the BGG Marketplace

http://www.spielboy.com/#

[Wolfe13]

NuMystic,

I do use eBay like that and also Market place "historical info" but this, Spielboy is phenomenal and might reduce headaches... thanks!!

[PeakHope]

As a game player, not a game collector or game dealer, I would never trade to receive 2 copies of the same game. That just shifts the burden of selling/trading the second copy from you to me. Plus now I have to deal with the postage to get rid of it.

Just because I have a game as my #1 want doesn't mean 2 (or even 3) copies would be worth twice as much to me.

Kevin