main halyard 473

[Michel Sirois]

Is there anybody who can remind me what size it would be for the main on a 473. I have the classic, but I don't think the slight difference in size matters compared to furling main.

I'm rigged with double braided polyester and want to replace and maybe go with lower stretch and by the way slightly smaller. I want to buy now but my boat is a 10 hours drive away and I don't quite remember the size it came with.  As usual the owner's manual is of no help for this.

 

Thanks in advance for info

 

Michel Sirois

B473 Quasida

[Richard Donovan Jr.]

            Michel

I have replaced my halyards with New England Ropes Sta-Set X for both the main and genoa a couple of years ago. We also have the Classic main sail. The original halyards were metric and I believe they were 12 mm. I replaced mine with ½” diameter Sta-Set X. The cabin top rope clutches are good for up to 9/16”.

 

I purchased pre made halyards from West Marines catalog but if I had it to do over again I would use a more hi tech line especially for the main halyard. I would suggest using a local rigger to suggest a better quality line than I used and to allow them to make it up using a shackle that you like and the correct length. Mine were purchased as 110’ long on each halyard. Length is fine but the Sta-Set X is not really low stretch in my opinion. The Sta-Set will be a good option if cost is a factor because the higher tech lines for this size boat are really expensive comparatively speaking.

 

Rick Donovan

Beneteau 473

            Turn the Page

[Michel Sirois]

Rich

 

Are you sure 110' is long enough to go twice the lenght of mast to deck and back to winches on the roof clutches?.

 

Michel

[Ivars]

Line comes in different "constructions" which are better suited to
particular jobs. All line manufactures / catalogues have suggested uses
with each line specification. Read the fine print.

Stretch in halyards is a big deal because of their long length. A low end
line may have 3% stretch..., over 100' ( 50 ft mast ) that equals almost
36 inches of stretch. Most load / stretch figures are given at a fraction
of the working load. That is a lot of stretch and requires extra effort
to keep the proper tensions.

The same logic applies to sheets as well. Their length may not be as long
as a halyard but still a few inches of stretch becomes critical when onw
needs to chase trim constanly. Using the same low end line with 3%
stretch over a 10 ft length of sheet under load amounts to 3.6 inches of
stretch. If you don't think that is a lot, set the trim on your
headsail and then let it out 3 inches, the sail will look horrible.
Conversely how many times have you yelled at someone ( or be the one yelled
at ) for overtimming, by letting the leach ot the sail get pulled into
a spreader. The trim was set during a puff, when the puff has passed
the sail gets pulled into the spreader by the smaller load on the sheet
causing it to retart a few inches.

The sailing experience is greatly improved by not having to chase trim.
Get the least stretch line that your budget will allow. It is well worth
the upgrade and results in less effort.

> [Original Message]
> From: Richard Donovan Jr. <sailo...@verizon.net>
> To: <Benetea...@googlegroups.com>
> Date: 3/31/2007 11:54:38 AM

> Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: main halyard 473
>
>

> From a performance stand point, no stretch is what you want. The
> question for most folks become how much are you willing to spend for a
> small gain in performance. We will all need to come to that for
> ourselves based on how we perceive that we use our boats.
>
> It is my opinion that the larger models benefit more from the low
> stretch line than the smaller boats do, but I bet I will hear otherwise
> from those folks.
>
> My example for this is that trimming with the original genoa sheets that
> came as standard equipment on our boat; I could actually watch the line
> get longer when the boat was hit with a gust of wind. It was very
> obvious if you were paying attention. I feel that the smaller sail areas
> involved on the smaller models make this much more difficult to pick up
> simply because the loads are much less. The small boats that are going
> to race regularly will definitely benefit from the low stretch lines but
> the cruisers probably will not notice much of an advantage to the extra
> costs for low stretch line.
>
> I upgraded my genoa sheets to 9/16" with a Kevlar core which is a much
> lower stretch line than the Sta-Set X I used in our main halyard and
> genoa halyard. I would have used this same Kevlar cored line for those
> also had it been available at the time. The down side to these types of
> lines is that they can be very stiff to handle. I.E. they don't unwrap
> off a winch as easily and can be more difficult to coil, etc.
>
> Maybe someone here can comment on how the rope business works. If I
> understood it correctly, each rigger orders what they want for lines in
> stock well before the season from the various manufacturers. It is my
> understanding that if they sell all of the product they ordered in any
> particular size or design, they need to wait for the following build
> season to place another order. This seemed ridiculous to me, but it is
> what I had been told by two of our local riggers when I was shopping for
> the line I wanted.
>
>
> Rick Donovan
> BENETEAU 473

> Turn the Page
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Wilme
> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 11:11 AM
> To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com

> Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: main halyard 473
>
> For halyards ...
>
> Would you agree that the same is not as true for sheets ? Or are you
> using low stretch all round ?
>
> M
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Ivars]

You can verify what you need.   Look up  the "P" for your main, double that,  add the height of the gooseneck  above the deck ( as you remember it ), add the distance from the mast to the winches  allow for a tail and a bit of a fudge factor.  You should have a guestimate of what is needed.    Most of the line vendors also have a reference chart. which would be close to what is needed.

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Michel Sirois

To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com

Sent: 3/31/2007 12:12:09 PM

Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: main halyard 473

Rich

 

Are you sure 110' is long enough to go twice the lenght of mast to deck and back to winches on the roof clutches?.

 

Michel

----- Original Message -----

From: Richard Donovan Jr.

To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 11:24 AM

Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: main halyard 473

            Michel

I have replaced my halyards with New England Ropes Sta-Set X for both the main and genoa a couple of years ago. We also have the Classic main sail. The original halyards were metric and I believe they were 12 mm. I replaced mine with ½” diameter Sta-Set X. The cabin top rope clutches are good for up to 9/16”.

 

I purchased pre made halyards from West Marines catalog but if I had it to do over again I would use a more hi tech line especially for the main halyard. I would suggest using a local rigger to suggest a better quality line than I used and to allow them to make it up using a shackle that you like and the correct length. Mine were purchased as 110’ long on each halyard. Length is fine but the Sta-Set X is not really low stretch in my opinion. The Sta-Set will be a good option if cost is a factor because the higher tech lines for this size boat are really expensive comparatively speaking.

 

Rick Donovan

Beneteau 473

            Turn the Page

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Michel Sirois
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 9:37 AM

To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} main halyard 473

[Max Lynn]

Just as a tip, I replaced the main halyard and main sheet on my 40.7 with a Ronstan (Marlow, by another name, I believe) D2 10 mm line from The JSI Store.

 

http://www.newjsi.com/

 

It's a close-out deal, and I just checked and they still list it on the web site (although at the very end of their list).  It is Vectran, available in a very dark green only, and appears to perform very well from my experience so far.  It has two downsides:  First, it has a very slick hard finish, so that you need at least four turns on a winch to make it work, and second, it tends to slip in the Spinlock clutches on the cabintop when loaded heavily.  I cured the latter problem by "bulking" it up at the main points of contention with a small added core.  The big, big plus is that it's only $1.56 per foot, which is a great buy.

 

I would second the recommendations to go with high-tech lines - Daryl mentioned a couple of good ones, and if you don't choose the Marlow I mentioned, the recommendation of Layline as a good source for the others is good.  Chances are that Layline would know what length you need.

 

Max Lynn

----- Original Message -----

From: Michel Sirois

To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 6:36 AM

Subject: {Beneteau Owners} main halyard 473

[Richard Donovan Jr.]

            Michel,

I am almost positive that 110’ does it but give me sometime Sunday morning and I will look up the

receipt and hope it is there. I will send another note with the info if I have it.

 

Rick Donovan

 

 

[Michel Sirois]

Thanks Rick,

 

Michel

----- Original Message -----

From: Richard Donovan Jr.

To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 6:13 PM

Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: main halyard 473

[Glen...@aol.com]

Go to Layline.com and get their number and call them.  They are the line experts and will recommend the best line for the money, and they are cheaper than West.  They'll deliver the line with a splice on one end, shackle included if you like, and whipped on the other.

 

Glen McIntosh

B57 Latitude Adjustment III

 

 

 

In a message dated 3/31/2007 10:24:58 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sailo...@verizon.net writes:

Length is fine but the Sta-Set X is not really low stretch in my opinion. The Sta-Set will be a good option if cost is a factor because the higher tech lines for this size boat are really expensive comparatively speaking.

 

---

See what's free at AOL.com.

[Richard Donovan Jr.]

            Michel

           

            I stand corrected on the lengths needed for halyards on the 473.

I hope that you haven’t already placed an order somewhere on my say so.

 

Rick Donovan

Beneteau 473

Turn the Page

 

 

 

 

This is what I have from all of my notes when I did the measurements and research a couple of years ago.

 

While doing the research, I also spoke with a sales rep at New England Ropes for calculated loads to expect on the 473. The main halyard, genoa halyard and spinnaker halyard were all given as 11000 to 14500#. The spinnaker sheets were given as 8500 to 11000#. Those numbers should give you what you need to make the best decisions on replacing your running rigging.

 

            Beneteau 473 27000#

            I = 55.43 feet

            J = 18.21 feet

            P = 48.03 feet

            E = 17.06 feet

            Sail Area with 140% genoa is 1163 square feet.

           

            My measurements were written down as the following:

 

            Main Halyard

            Top of boom to main halyard exit box at the top of the mast, 48 feet

            Exit box to deck, 53 feet

            Back edge of mast to winches on the cabin top 15 feet

            These numbers indicate a minimum of 116 feet for the main halyard length

            I purchased New England Ropes Sta-Set X ½” by 130 feet long with a captive pin shackle

            I would recommend using a more hi tech material than Sta-Set X

           

            Genoa Halyard

            Head stay pin at deck level to Genoa Halyard exit box at top of the mast is 56 feet

            Genoa exit box to deck level is 53 feet

            Genoa halyard turning block at deck level to winches on cabin top is 16 feet

            These numbers indicate a minimum of 125 feet for the genoa halyard length

            I purchased New England Ropes Sta-Set X ½” by 130 feet long with a snap shackle

            I would recommend using a more hi tech material than Sta-Set X

 

            Spinnaker Halyard

            Head stay pin at deck level to turning block at the top of the mast is 58 feet

            Spinnaker turning block to deck level turning block is 56 feet

            Spinnaker turning block to winches is 16 feet

            These numbers indicate a minimum of 130 feet for the spinnaker halyard length

            I purchased New England Ropes Sta-Set X ½” by 130 feet long with a snap shackle           

             

            Main Sail Out Haul

            Boom length is 17 ½ feet

            Bottom of the boom to the deck turning block is about 5 feet

            Turning block back to the winches is 15 feet

            These numbers indicate a minimum of 38 feet for the out haul control line

            I purchased New England Ropes T-900 10mm by 45 feet long

 

            Genoa Sheets

            I purchased New England Ropes T-900 x 9/16” x 65 feet each

 

            Asymmetrical Spinnaker Sheets

            I purchased 3/8” x 100 feet of Sta-Set

            100 feet may be long depending on how you gybe your spinnaker. We use 2 sheets and gybe outside so ours needed to be long.

 

 

 

[Michel]

Thanks a million Rick,

 

Haven't ordered yet, but will do this week. I will also check what Layline and JSI have to offer.

 

I also need to get a spinnaker halyard and sheets.Just received my new spi last week.

 

By the way has any of you guys with the classic rig  had any problem with chafing of the main halyard at the point where it exits the sheeve or it could also be where it rubs on the cap at the upper end of the batten-car track.That is when the sail is hoisted.  I always need to keep an eye on chafe at that point. Once it chafed thru and broke in the middle of the night.At another time it chafed half the thickness. I would like to solve this issue before I put a new and expensive halyard up there.

 

Michel Sirois

Quasida B473

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Richard Donovan Jr.

To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com

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[Bill Jarvis]

With all deference to Rick Donovan, I suspect that the figures quoted by New England Ropes were the breaking strengths recommended. If they were the working load you would be looking for some VERY expensive line and some mighty strong sailcloth in your mainsail.

 

Bill

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Michel

To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 4:37 PM

Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: main halyard 473: Update

Thanks a million Rick,

 

Haven't ordered yet, but will do this week. I will also check what Layline and JSI have to offer.

 

I also need to get a spinnaker halyard and sheets.Just received my new spi last week.

 

By the way has any of you guys with the classic rig  had any problem with chafing of the main halyard at the point where it exits the sheave or it could also be where it rubs on the cap at the upper end of the batten-car track.That is when the sail is hoisted.  I always need to keep an eye on chafe at that point. Once it chafed thru and broke in the middle of the night.At another time it chafed half the thickness. I would like to solve this issue before I put a new and expensive halyard up there.

[Michael]

MAY I THROW MY TWO BOB IN. I HAVE FOUND THAT THE CLUTCHES SHOULD FIRST ELIMINATED AS THE PROBLEM.

MIKE ROPER

 

---

From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Donovan Jr.
Sent: Sunday, 1 April 2007 11:18 PM
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: main halyard 473: Update

 

            Michel

[Richard Donovan Jr.]

            Michel

I am assuming that you also have the Harken Batt Car System on the luff of your main sail. We have a rubber “stopper” at the top of the track, near the exit for the main halyard. Our halyard rubs fairly hard on that rubber piece but I have not had a problem with chafe of the halyard. That seems like a good spot to consider initially. If the dealer that set up your mast assembled the track system to close (read to high) to the exit of the halyard, that might explain why you have had problems with chafe. The stop I mention only needs to be a few inches above the head of the main sail when the halyard is fully tensioned. If your track happens to be longer than that, the halyard would rub heavily on the track or the bump stop and its screws.

 

In the center of this page is an example of what I am talking about on the track stop, they are calling it a fixed end stop kit here.     http://www.harkenstore.com/uniface.urd/SCCYSPW1

 

Of course the mast head sheave/bushings could be worn and allowing the halyard to rub up there as well.

Sounds like someone needs to take a trip to the top of the mast while the sail is up to see if there is anything else that may be causing the problems.

 

 

 

What weight cloth did your sail maker use for the new spinnaker??

We built ours a touch light and used ¾ ounce cloth. The recommendations from North and others was to use 1 ½ ounce cloth, which I thought might be a performance problem in the light air we would normally use it in and didn’t want to buy two sails to cover the full wind range. I don’t need a spinnaker up in 20+ knots true which the heavy cloth should have been able to handle easily. We get a lot of light air days here in the summer and planned accordingly for our spinnaker. Your expected use may be different.

 

Happy Sailing

[Michel]

Hi Rick

 

We got a 11/2 onc spi from FX Sails. North Sails had suggested a step-up construction,with  11/2 onc in the corners and 3/4 in the  middle. But for the first time we went with another sailmaker than North and  saved about 3000.00 for what so far I consider a just as good sail. I will be able to comment more on performance after the next season. The sail is just georgeous with a beautiful inlay ( not onlay nor print) of our own.

 

As for the chafing issue, well every time it occurs, it seems to be on a broad reach. The first time it happened was  in the middle of the night between CapeCod and SouthWest Harbour.It did cut and broke completely.  At that time I tought it was from rubbing on the end cap of the  car track, so I cut the end of the track and lowered the cap 11/2 in or 2. Unfortunately it  reoccured, but never to the point  of  chafe and breaking. I think it is rubbing on the side of the sheave box or should I say the mast head unit that holds the sheaves. That could explain why it seems to be more  of a problem when broadreaching deep. Your suggestion to go up the mast when the main sail is up is very good.

 

You also referred to Harken batten car. Mines are not Harken. My boat was made in France, and unless I'm wrong they are Z Spars (aka US Spars).

 

Finaly, for halyard I to what all you guys said and went ahead with Max Lynn's recommendations and ordered last night from The JSI Store that 10mm Vectran.

 

Thanks

 

Michel Sirois

Quasida B473

[pegasu...@aol.com]

I do not think 110 feet of lne is long enough for the Halyards on a 473....... Are you sure?

Joe

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[Richard Donovan Jr.]

            Michel

We have not had any problem at all with chafe of the main halyard in about 6000nm, knock wood. Interesting that you feel this chafing is only happening on a broad reach. In your experiences with this, do you remember being on the same gybe when this happened??

 

I have been thinking about normal adjustments I would make while on this angle of sail. We would normally have the vang on quite hard and the main sheet would be eased to a point where the top section of the sail is just touching the upper set of spreaders. I probably would have eased an inch or so on the main halyard and the outhaul if we were going very far on this wind angle. These settings could easily allow the main sail to work up and down more than when hard on the main sheet for a tighter wind angle. This allowed movement of the sail with these settings, particularly along the upper leech portion of the main, may be transferring as motion of the halyard in your case. Your description would seem to indicate that there certainly is a possibility that something at the exit of the halyard box is rubbing the line when the sail is eased off for the broad reach. It could be as simple as a cotter pin up there causing you all this grief. Seems like time for a look see while the sail is fully hoisted, good luck.

 

I think the vectran will make a great choice for the main halyard.

 

Today, most all your local sail makers have computer aided design capability and are capable of building a good product.  $3000 is certainly nothing to sneeze at in savings on a sail.

 

Happy Sailing

[Max Lynn]

Just as a suggestion, it may be that your mainsail luff is too long, and the headboard is being hoisted up into the masthead sheave box.  You should be able to tell this by just hoisting the sail at the dock and taking a look up there with a pair of binoculars.  If you have the requisite black stripe at the top, just check to see if the head of the sail is much above that stripe.  Also, I'm sure you know this, but make sure you are using a hole in the headboard nearer the mast to attach the halyard shackle.  Some headboards have two holes, one further aft for a different configuration. 

 

Max Lynn

----- Original Message -----

From: Michel

To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 4:53 PM

Subject: {Beneteau Owners} main halyard 473

[Michel]

Max,

 

Good point, but no the sail is not too long. Actually it looks a bit the opposite. Sail is short and halyard comes out of the sheave and comes down at a very narrow angle with the mast. It was rubbing hard on the plastic cap at the end of the track. Since I lowered that cap, now it still touches but looks to be much lighter.

 

You are right about the different holes on the headboard. I'll make sure I hook on the more outside one. And I guess somebody will need to go up the mast with the sail hoisted.

 

Thanks for the tip with JSI, that is a good deal

 

Michel Sirois

 

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Max Lynn

To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 3:07 PM

Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: main halyard 473

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