In-mast furling problem - jammed main

[Robert Lucchetti]

Bill:   Several suggestions based on lessons learned with our in-mast furler. 1. Ensure the main sheet has been not secured tight. Boom needs to move around. 2. make sure the outhaul is not out of slot on the worm.  3. Inhaul needs to be slack  4. Try rolling in any exposed sail and the draw out. May take numerous efforts. 5. Confirm main halyard has not slacked off.   Avoid using the cabin top winch too aggressively. You can and will break things.   Bob L oc321/Latitudes/Chicago

[Denny Wertheimer]

Mine was jammmed over the weekend, i rollit back up and pull it out by hand and re-roll, it might take a couple of tries

--
Denny Wertheimer


314-330-5001

[Eta Johnson]

Also, make sure your leech line is loose.  I forgot to lossen mine one day and it cause the leech to roll at the top.

 

Gordon

---

From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Denny Wertheimer
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 12:37 PM
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: In-mast furling problem - jammed main

[Rick Donovan]

sorry guys. I know this comment does not answer Bill's original
request for advice, and I apologize to Bill for that, but this is
exactly why I don't like the roller furling main sail designs. I do
not question the convenience for the average sailor when they work.
my problem with them is when they don't work.

good thing a squall is not coming over the horizon, ehh?

you are having problems right at the dock trying to get the main out
of the mast. what if you were out on the water and the conditions
required furling and someone did just one step wrong and now the main
sail is jammed part way in or out. what do you do then??

I will stick to the old slab reefing, thanks very much.

Rick Donovan
Biddeford, Maine

[mark....@gmail.com]

Actually there's one heck of a storm coming through the area right now ...

(I'm about an hour north of S. Dartmouth)
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Donovan <rdono...@maine.rr.com>

Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:13:14

To: <Benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: In-mast furling problem - jammed main

[ak...@earthlink.net]

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

---

From: Denny Wertheimer
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 11:37:16 -0500

To: <Benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: In-mast furling problem - jammed main

[MarkH]

On Jul 7, 7:13 pm, Rick Donovan <rdonova...@maine.rr.com> wrote:
> good thing a squall is not coming over the horizon, ehh?
>
> you are having problems right at the dock trying to get the main out  
> of the mast. what if you were out on the water and the conditions  
> required furling and someone did just one step wrong and now the main  
> sail is jammed part way in or out. what do you do then??

Never had a problem furling - it's no less reliable that a roller
genoa.

To answer the question though, I'd probably loosen the halyard and
drop the main onto the boom where I'd tie it down with a few sail ties
(why does that sound familiar...)

Mark

[MarkH]

All good suggestions. When we got our OC351 I cursed at the roller
main. We used to struggle to unfurl on anything other than port tack
with a moderate breeze. However we now have our main such that it's a
dream to roll / unroll - and we pay absolutely no attention to topping
lift, vang etc. In our case at least, the jams were caused by a
slightly loosely rolled mid-section of the sail becoming trapped in
the slot whilst unfurling. IMHO this indicates a slightly 'baggy' main
which is probably stretched.. Anyhow, I removed the sail over the
winter, gave it a good scrub with handwashing powder and rinsed
thoroughly with fresh water. When it had properly dried, I sprayed
each side of the sail with a 14oz can of Sailkote (McLube). The
effects are two fold.

1. The sail rolls tighter as the layers can slide over each other
2. The sail tends not to 'drag' inside the mast as it unrolls,
reducing any tendancy to become snagged.

So far, I've been delighted with the results - even my kids can
reliably furl/unfurl quickly. I have also sparyed the slot, the bottom
bearings and the outhaul track/blocks.

YMMV I suppose.

Good Luck.

Mark

As Robert s

>  
> Bob L
> oc321/Latitudes/Chicago

[Michael Elliott]

If all else fails go over to Cape Yachts at the South Wharf Marina, the Beneteau dealer.  They have some very talented help and have treated me fairly in the past.

Michael Elliott

Vixen

B 373 Boston

[bbigd...@aol.com]

Thanks to everyone who replied with advice, I really appreciate your suggestions.   Before I could read the advice, I got a rigger to the boat ( Joe Mauer).  he took one look and knew the problem.
This past winter I had the mast removed - first time since I bought the boat.  When the mast was installed I noticed a significant bend at the top of the mast.
I asked the yard about it and they said no problem unless severe.  They were wrong.

In mast furling needs a straight run, the bend messes up the mechanism.  After the rigger loosened the stays and readjusted, there was no problem.
He did recommend that after this season I try to get my main sail flattened. The sail is in good shape but it does have a sag in the middle, which rigger says is a common problem with Neil Pryd sails.  Has anyone had the sag taken out of main?  Can it be done? 

I realize that my question fueled the debate about in-mast furling.  My view is that it is an excellent system, but like every system, something can go wrong. My problem was not the system but the boat yard.  The boat yard could screw up things on any system.

Again, many thanks.

Bill

---

Finding the best videos just got easier. Try the NEW Truveo.com.

[chris walter]

Bill,  I have the same problem on my b361 this year.  Where is your boat kept,  and where does Joe Mauer work out of.  thanks chris

[bbigd...@aol.com]

My boat is kept in Huntington,NY on Long Island.  The boat yard, Coney's is an excellent yard ( primarily Catalina'a).  Joe Mauer is from Pandanaram ( South Dartmouth, Ma).  The name of his business is Rigging Solutions.

Bill

[mark....@gmail.com]

Curious then, with a furling main, how do you put mast bend in for performance? Do you unfurl then bend?

M

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

---

From: bbigd...@aol.com
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 11:40:31 -0400
To: <Benetea...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: In-mast furling problem - solved!!

[David Krunnfusz]

There can be some rake in the mast with in-mast furling. Apparently, though, you can overdo it and have a problem. I've never had an issue with my in-mast furling for the seven years I've owned the boat and the mast definitely has some rake in it.

[Gordon Johnson]

I occasionally race my 423 with inmast furling.   BUT, I would never take myself or the boat seriously. Tightening a backstay is not something that would be required for cruising and not something I would ever consider for my boat.  I am sure it could be done, but I would not chose to monkey with it.   If you are serious about racing, get a normal main.  Inmast furling is made for cruisers.  I have done OK in around the cans races with the club and I think I am handicapped for the inmast furling.   Before someone tries to blast me with how fast their inmast equipped boat is, let me state that your mileage may vary.   In 2007 we came in second place in the Caribbean 1500 - - corrected.  Obviously the boat and sails have something going for them, but I would bet that with a normal sail, I might even have come in first.  (I also could have come in first had I motored faster and not been sooooo very conservative with fuel usage.  In the 1500, as in most rallies, each hour of motoring ads one hour of total time to your score.)   

 

---

[mark....@gmail.com]

Same penalty for each hour of motoring regardless of whether you are motoring at 4.5kn to conserve fuel or at 8.5kn (or whatever hull speed is), right ?

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

---

From: "Gordon Johnson"
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 12:22:58 -0400

[Gordon Johnson]

Correct. I motored at 200 rpm – 6.5 knots.  Had I kicked it up to 2500, I could have done 7.5 which would have been enough to place first.

 

---

From: Beneteau-Own...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Beneteau-Own...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of mark....@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 12:31 PM
To: Beneteau Owners
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: In-mast furling problem - solved!!

 

Same penalty for each hour of motoring regardless of whether you are motoring at 4.5kn to conserve fuel or at 8.5kn (or whatever hull speed is), right ?

[glenn x]

I think furling main and performance in an oxymoron. Glenn --- On Wed, 7/8/09, mark....@gmail.com <mark....@gmail.com> wrote:

[Eric Gritzmacher]

No question there is a performance issue with in-mast rigs. However, you can get a “fair” amount of it back with a vertical batten main. I replaced the main on my 361 with a laminated, vertical batten NeilPryde sail. It made a big difference. I can’t recall what the additional cost was but in the scheme of things it was not that bad. For me it was well worth it.

 

EG

 

---

[Guy]

There is no need to bend as the sail is cut flat already.  Bend is used to flatten a sail that has a curved luff/

-------------------------------------------------
Captain Guy
New Smyrna Beach FL USA
386-689-5088
-------------------------------------------------
s/v Island Time (Beneteau 352#277)
AICW 845.5

[Guy]

Rake is not the same as bend... any rake will have no effect on sail shape, bend does.

-------------------------------------------------
Captain Guy
New Smyrna Beach FL USA
386-689-5088
-------------------------------------------------
s/v Island Time (Beneteau 352#277)
AICW 845.5

----- Original Message -----

From: David Krunnfusz

To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com

[Gordon Johnson]

In my racing days, I primarily bent the main to tighten the luff of the headsail -   I was not worried about the main.   And I only did this in winds over about 12 knots or so when close-hauled and sometimes close-reaching.

 

---

<BR

[Rick Donovan]

On Jul 8, 2009, at 12:14 PM, David Krunnfusz wrote:

There can be some rake in the mast with in-mast furling.

hey guys, just to clarify, mast rake and mast bend are two different animals. you could introduce 2 feet of mast rake and not really affect the furling of a roller furling main. with mast bend, 4-6 inches may be more than enough to cause problems. 

I am trying to think how to best describe this and others may do better than I will in my attempt. 

mast rake is when the top of the mast is not plumb or perpendicular to the boat. the top of the mast can be moved forward or aft by changing the length of the head stay, adjusting the length of the turn buckle near the furling unit for the genoa for instance. relatively small changes in mast rake will affect the feel of the helm because it moves the center of effort of the sail plan relative to the center of effort to the keel and the rudder.

mast bend could be done with the top of the mast perfectly plumb, no mast rake at all, but the middle of the mast is bowed forward. mast bend, also called prebend, on a roller furling main can alter the clearance inside the mast for the sail to furl easily. if the right amount of pressure is cranked into the shrouds and backstay, the mast will bend because that pressure is trying to shorten the height of the mast with compression loads. on a traditional main sail, pre bend as I know it to be called, is a way to control the draft or depth of the sail particularly the middle sections that someone else asked about altering today.

on a furling main that prebend is not desirable. I missed thinking about that as a possible source of the problem when this question was originally asked. most folks do not have enough tension in their rigs so I never gave it a thought.

altering the luff curve of the main sail is a relatively easy thing to have done by a sail maker. I would suggest that you get your chosen sail maker onboard before asking for this change. he/she may be able to offer other suggestions first that do not require the cutting of your sail. and if adjustments don't do the trick, they will have seen the sail under load so they know what they need to do to correct the shape for you.

Rick Donovan

Biddeford, Maine 

[Ivars]

This is not a problem related to any one sailmaker,  but rather to the cloth stretching and losing shape as it ages

 

Woven sails (formally Dacron...now polyester )  (Dacron ( TM ) is no longer available) stretch with time as the cloth structure breaks down causing a "bag" or extra material that can interfere with the rolling process.  The bag causes wrinkles which lead to a larger build up / roll which can bind in the mast.  The bag also can cause the load not to be equal along the foil causing further furling issues.

 

The "bag" can be taken out of a sail by any sailmaker by reutting the luff.  It is an easy process and cost effective if the cloth is not totally gone. 

 

Bending a furling mast causes the sail to bind inside the mast.  The mast takes on the shape of an arc /curve while the sail tries to remain straight resulting in a bind.  Not good for furling.  

---

From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of chris walter
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 11:35 AM
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com

Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: In-mast furling problem - solved!!

[David Krunnfusz]

Thanks to all for the education. I didn't know that bend and rake were two separate animals. With that knowledge, I can now say that my mast with in-mast furling has no bend, but does have rake, and I still haven't had an issue with it in the seven years I've owned the boat.

[Eric Gritzmacher]

My final comments on this subject of in mast furling systems. Good explanation of rake vs. bend. I was going to try to explain them myself but someone did a better job than I ever could. It is important to understand, but not something to fret over unless you are really into fine tuning performance. However, I recommend that people learn how to tune their rigging at least to prevent some serious problems that can occur. It is not real difficult. A competent rigger can show you how.

 

I have had my in-mast furling system (Charleston Spar) for five years and have had no problems. I just take care when furling to be as certain as possible that the sail furls correctly. Having said that, I still have a difficult time controlling the depth and location of the draft. All in all I still prefer a traditional set-up.

 

EG

 

---

[mark....@gmail.com]

We have prop wars and classic v furling going on, now who's for a hearty 'my anchor is better/lighter/shinier/cheaper than yours' discussion ? :)

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

---

From: "Eric Gritzmacher"
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 15:46:25 -0700

[Ca...@aol.com]

A few points:

 

Polyester is Dacron. Dacron is a trade name for the stuff. That is why it is capitalized. New polymers have lower stretch than Dacron, like Kevlar and those highly expensive alternatives that make for brown or gray sails. Part of the deal is not only stretch but hysteresis, the ability to recover from stretch. These new polymers do that better than the old Dacron.

 

We have had similar problems with the wrapping of the main. Part of the problem is a mast bend of about 2", but the main problem is an 8 year old sail. I'll check around to see if it can be cut to flatten it out, but that's a real waste of $$. I need to replace it with something new, and it will probably be Neil Pryde, even though his sails do give out a bit more than the more expensive ones.

 

One of the main considerations of a thermoplastic like polyester (not capitalized) is the molecular weight distribution of the polymer used to to make the thread.

 

As the material is pulled through the die to make a monofilament the polymer strings are aligned in 'machine direction' giving high strength in that direction. The transverse direction strength is low (who cares in a thread ...) but,

 

If those polymer chains are of highly divergent lengths, in other words, if the molecular weight distribution is wide, the threads will be weaker than a better polymer with more narrow (and higher) MWD. DuPont has the Dacron trade name, and do an excellent job making high quality polyester. Other outfits who supply the lower cost sail cloth weavers, like those used by Pryde, don't do as good a job.

 

Since we won't be keeping our boat for ever (or for the next 6+ years) I figure a Pryde sail will be just fine. If I was planning to head off to Pago Pago for the next several years I would spend the bucks for a higher quality sail, like North or Doyle.

 

Years ago I was in the plastics manufacturing business, and learned this stuff from guys at Dow, Monsanto and DuPont. I sell analytical instruments to them now, and nothing has changed. I don't sell gel permeation chromatographs, an instrument used to determine MWD, but have used them. I also developed a test device used to measure the orientation of molecular alignment in films and extruded foams, and learned a great deal about this stuff in the process. But, I didn't make a fortune (nothing, if fact) with the instrument! Someone else did, though ... Another story calling for a keg 'o grog!

Cap in Edgewater.

 

In a message dated 7/8/2009 3:56:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dbg...@mindspring.com writes:

This is not a problem related to any one sailmaker,  but rather to the cloth stretching and losing shape as it ages

 

Woven sails (formally Dacron...now polyester )  (Dacron ( TM ) is no longer available) stretch with time as the cloth structure breaks down causing a "bag" or extra material that can interfere with the rolling process.  The bag causes wrinkles which lead to a larger build up / roll which can bind in the mast.  The bag also can cause the load not to be equal along the foil causing further furling issues.

 

The "bag" can be taken out of a sail by any sailmaker by reutting the luff.  It is an easy process and cost effective if the cloth is not totally gone. 

 

Bending a furling mast causes the sail to bind inside the mast.  The mast takes on the shape of an arc /curve while the sail tries to remain straight resulting in a bind.  Not good for furling.  

 

---

Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals.

[Barac, Dan CAR]

I wish someone had stated in this long debate that any and all performance advantages of the classic main disappear after 15-17 kts of wind. After that, the in-mast furling wins all the way because of the ease of reefing and the infinite number of reefing points. You end up with a better balanced boat in higher winds, without the bulge at the boom and most importantly, you tend to actually reef when necessary to do so. How many times have you seen boats with classic mains overpowered or using just the (furling) headsail?

---

From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Eric Gritzmacher
Sent: Thursday, 9 July 2009 1:21

[Rick Donovan]

On Jul 8, 2009, at 10:46 PM, Barac, Dan CAR wrote:

ease of reefing and the infinite number of reefing points.

sorry to feel the need to disagree with Dan, but the lack of ease for reefing is what started this discussion in the first place, so I can't agree with you on that point. 

the infinite number of reefing points is mostly correct but at the cost of sail shape. as soon as you take just one turn in of your furling main sail, you have lost all adjustment for the draft of the sail and position of the draft, as well as use of the leech line to stop the fluttering of the leech in heavy air. your partially furled main sail will be much to full to be a good sail shape for heavier winds because the sail will start to furl on the bottom and the top before gathering material in the middle of the sail just like the genoa furling systems. this leaves sail cloth in the middle of the partially furled sail to add to the draft problem at a time when you need to be reducing the draft to take power away from the sail plan. that full shape actually adds to heeling moment of the boat even though you have done the correct thing by reducing sail area. 

the traditional main sail, if set up properly and I admit some are not, will not have that sail shape problem. if someone is familiar with reefing the traditional slab reefing, it also can be done very quickly and easily. with a bit of regular practice, I could put in or shake out a reef on our 473 in under 30 seconds by myself and never leave the cockpit. once reefed the "classic" main sail will have a nice flat surface with a draft forward sail shape and should allow you to carry a bit more sail area. you can trim the main on because of that sail shape and help power you thru the waves when they start building. a flat main and a reduced genoa that has the foam luff insert or something similar is going to be a much better sail shape for heavier conditions in any boat.

the roller furling main sail does not have a "foam" luff or some other similar design. ever wonder why a sail maker will almost always add this to a furling genoa but never on a furling main? the purpose of this feature is to pull excess sail cloth forward near the mid section of the genoa luff when reefing that sail, for correct sail shape in heavy air. doesn't it then make sense that the main and the genoa would need the same kind of adjustment as the wind kicks up and you start to reef these sails?? the simple answer is that there is not room inside the mast for the extra size of the main sail with this padded luff when fully furled. it would cause the material to drag on the inside surfaces of the mast requiring a need for more physical strength to furl the sail and chafe of the sail cloth when the surfaces are in contact with each other. as a result, your main sail is compromised when we talk about sail area and correct shape by the design of the furling itself, all because of available clearance inside the mast. 

all this long discussion really points out is that this is still one of those hot topics we encounter here on the forum all the time. each sailor makes his/her own decision on this when buying their next boat and adjusts to what that boat needs once the purchase is finished. if like me they have come up using a slab reefing system, they are very comfortable using it. if they learned to sail with a furling set up on the main they probably prefer that design. there is no one correct answer for all of us and probably never will be on subjects like this one. 

you say tomato, I say tomatoe. 

Rick Donovan

Biddeford, Maine

[Cleveng...@aol.com]

agreed

---

Dell Studio XPS Desktop: Save up to $400 - Limited Time Offer

[Ca...@aol.com]

According to the guys at North Sails with whom I spoke prior to ordering Zydeco with roller furler main, the break even point when going to weather is 10 Kts true. At that point you are seeing 15+ knots over the deck and a full battened main at least needs flattening by hauling in mast bend and another knot or two calls for a reef to sail flat.

Cap in MD

 

 

In a message dated 7/8/2009 10:47:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Dan....@carrier.utc.com writes:

I wish someone had stated in this long debate that any and all performance advantages of the classic main disappear after 15-17 kts of wind. After that, the in-mast furling wins all the way because of the ease of reefing and the infinite number of reefing points. You end up with a better balanced boat in higher winds, without the bulge at the boom and most importantly, you tend to actually reef when necessary to do so. How many times have you seen boats with classic mains overpowered or using just the (furling) headsail?

[Rick Donovan]

On Jul 8, 2009, at 10:21 PM, Ca...@aol.com wrote:

I figure a Pryde sail will be just fine. If I was planning to head off to Pago Pago for the next several years I would spend the bucks for a higher quality sail, like North or Doyle.

Hey Cap

I have a comment to offer about this. it has been my experience that the "quality" of any sail from any sail maker is directly related to the cloth or laminate used to make that sail. in my opinion, the builder of the sail whether North, Doyle, Neil Pryde, a local sail loft or anyone else is a much smaller factor than we are led to believe. "spending the bucks" does not guarantee quality from anyone.

when new in 2001, my 473 came with Neil Pryde sails built out of dacron that I found out later was not of sufficient weight to be strong enough for the application they were being used for. I never had any problem with how the Pryde sails were assembled, never had any failures of any kind due to workmanship. they used the proper stitching pattern, they were well protected with chafe patches in all the right places, batten pockets were well designed, etc. my only problem was the material used to build the sails. there is a very good chance the decision of what cloth was to be used was made by how to maximize the profit on the sail, not for any other reason. because the cloth weight used for our sails was not strong enough, the first few times we sailed the boat in heavy air, the cloth stretched. I first noticed the changes by needing to make an adjustment that I had only recently made and it was again out of place, out haul for instance. sail shape does not come back to the original design shape, ever, when it stretches. the next time you push the limits of the cloth, it stretches some more. if this continues the sail gets "bagged out" and has a very poor shape. this doesn't necessarily take 5-6 years to happen. it can happen in a weekend if the right sequence of events happen. 

using that line of thinking, I feel that no sail maker could do a better job than the next if the cloth used to build a sail from each manufacturer is the same. I believe that the cloth chosen for a new sail is the single most important decision you will make when spending your hard earned money on a new sail. I feel it is much more important than which of the big sail makers you purchase from.

there are some sail lofts that have a great reputation, like North for instance. not to pick them out exclusively, but they are geared much more toward the high end of the sailing market and seem to focus on the highest end of the racing boats to stay in business and keep their reputation in place. take a walk into one of their lofts and start talking about a new main sail for your 25' Cape Dory day sailor and see how much personal attention you will get. they will build you a sail, but you will not get the attention to its design that the owner of a Farr 40 would get when talking about a new main sail, I guarantee it because I have talked to them myself over the years. I am not criticizing North for doing this, I understand that they will make more money and have a much better chance of selling more sails to the guy with the Farr 40, it is just a fact of business life. all I am trying to get across is that I think the reputation part of buying new sails from North, Doyle, Neil Pryde etc is far out of line with reality, my opinion of course.

people seem to put a local sail loft aside when it comes to these decisions and I don't understand why. maybe it is just name recognition on their sail. I guess a North logo looks more important to them than Fred Smith's Sail Loft. today, with all of the computer programs available, computer cutting tables, etc a small sail loft, carefully chosen, can do just as nice a job building a set of new sails as North or the others for the average sailor. maybe even better because they should be able to provide better and closer customer service. if you are outfitting your new 150' sailing yacht I might be more choosy because of the loads involved, but for the rest of us, the local loft can do the job and will often give you much better service after the sale. 

do not just push them aside without at least talking to them if you are looking at new sails.

Rick Donovan

Biddeford, Maine

[John Mawe]

One question re rig tune.  Has anyone ever received/can share tension guidance (real numbers) for a furling mast on a B361?   Thanks.

 

John Mawe

mawe...@rcn.com

 

<BR

[Ivars]

John,

 

 

Don't get hung up on absolute numbers...the roller furling mast is a stiff mast by design and the furling system requires it to be plumb.   

 

I think you can start working with about 1200# on the cap shrouds maybe wind up at 1500#  The idea is to keep the mast in column as you load the rig

You need to sail the boat after you load the rig.  Check the mast to see how it is reacting. it should be straight or have a very slight even curve to leward.  The mast can exhibit some mast bend ( bend refers to fore and aft curve ) under load, but MUST come back into column when furliing The leeward shrouds should have some tension, but NOT loose.   Back at the dock check your readings, even up the reading and check the mast for being in column at rest.   The rig will move around and "seat" after sailing especially on new shrouds or shrouds that are being loaded to a higher level.  Also check the settings for the next few outings as things settle in, then review your setting when you think about it.   It's not a set and forget thing, things change with time.

---

From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Mawe
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 12:06 PM

[Jeffrey Schwartz]

Since we were recently hit by lightening we need a recommendation to any good electronics tech in Miami, Florida to help determine what exactly needs to be replaced and paid for by the insurance company.    Much of our equipment is not working… my concern is about the equipment that actually turns on but many not have full function or life span due to the hit we took. 

 

Thank you

 

Jeffrey

[slb...@aol.com]

Just started a two week cruise on lake michigan. Second day out had a sticking problem with the main furled. Rolled, stuck, rolled, stuck. Got in and made it to the dock. Performed the often described maintenance program, rinse with fresh water, sprayed with wd-40 and all is well.
The sailing has been fantastic except for the crossing. 13 hours of motoring to get to manistee mi. No wind but a beatiful day on the lake. Keep you posted on the furler but don't expect any more issues.
Tom
Forever Young B411 #200

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

---

From: "Ivars"
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 18:19:56 -0400

[lab...@comcast.net]

morning all just spent a week on board and discovered my normally dry bilge had about a 13 mm (1/2") of water .... since I'm on Lake Huron it's hald to tell where it's coming from ....... outside or in.  has anyone used a dye that will not stain?  skipper says if it stains the boat don't use it my argument is it's in the bilge no one will see it HA lost that one too.  any comments or suggestion?  I spent an hur on hands and knee but no luck.  also i've noticed the pressure pump running more often so that also gives me a clue

Terry and Amanda

Marie Claire OC 381

[Bob at Gmail]

Terry,

It sure sounds like a FW leak.  Barring a leaking faucet the FW pump shouldn't cycle without use of a faucet.  

Try placing paper towels or tissues at each joint and look for drips. 

Don't know about non staining dyes but try the tissues first.

Good luck

                 Bob 
         S/V Our Dream
'97 Beneteau Oceanis 351 #195
   Slip C-17, Castle Harbor Marina
     Chester River  Kent Island
           Chester, MD
             _/)__/)__/)_

From: lab...@comcast.net

Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 10:59 AM

To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com

[Mike Ordun]

Sure sounds like a freshwater leak since the pump is cycling.  I have dealt with this a lot and have come to despise the fresh water plumbing on my boat.  Suspect that you have either a cracked hose or cracked tee joint.  My boat is 8 years old and I have probably replaced all of the tees.  Some cracked on their own, other when I simply tired to move pipes aside to get at leaking tees.  In my boat all the action takes place far up under the sink in the head.  Here there is hot and cold feed from the water pump and hot water heater and then an series of 6 tees ( 3 in the cold and 3 in the hot)  in short succession feeding the shower,  head sink, galley sink, and finally stern shower.  My arms are still bruised from dealing with yet another leak a couple of weeks ago.  Fittings are metric and have been impossible to find.  On the advice of my dealer I used  1/2" barbs and a hair dryer to soften the black pipe before inserting the barb.  It would have made a lot more sense to have a hot/cold manifold under the settee seat and provide reasonable access to the fresh water plumbing joints.

Mike Ordun
s/v insanity
B361 #107

[bjgr...@verizon.net]

I never heard the explaination about the first leak story, any info?  Possible leak explaination could be water heater pressure release valve.  If your only getting 1/2 an inch in a week your going to be hard pressed to find it.   I have had slow leaks from poor seals on the water heater connections which is usually the only connections I mess with every year.    Bruce ( Breezy 361 )

[Max Lynn]

It's interesting that you found defective tees.  I was just going to write that I had found an identical fresh water leak caused by a cracked plastic tee.  It appears that Beneteau ought to change their supplier of plastic plumbing parts.

 

Max Lynn

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.12/2233 - Release Date: 07/12/09 08:20:00

[Ca...@aol.com]

In a message dated 7/12/2009 1:29:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, max...@cox.net writes:

It's interesting that you found defective tees.  I was just going to write that I had found an identical fresh water leak caused by a cracked plastic tee.  It appears that Beneteau ought to change their supplier of plastic plumbing parts.

 

Max Lynn

Ohh to we feel lucky! No serious fresh water leaks since the first week we owned the boat.

 

However, during yesterday's honey do list I decided to clean the A/C water strainer. Cut off the water, cleaned out the basked, turned the water back on again, but that included a huge surprise ... The valve and full fixture broke off in my hand leaving a nice view of water a lovely green color along with a fountain. Good thing the whack-in wooden plugs are handy! I have been wondering about why the bilge pump has been cycling and figured it was condensation from the A/C.

 

That means we will be hauling sooner rather than later. I found the price for a haul at Jabin's or PAM plus Trinidad SR for a DIY is more expensive that having Hartge Yacht Harbor do the whole job, and I prefer having the pros do the through hull replacement and inspection of the rest of the through hulls.

 

We are just lucky that it's not 90 today!

 

Cap in Edgewater.

[Labones]

I did fix the water heater leaks last year by swapping out the two piece fittings for a solid 1/2” fitting no leaks there and I checked the overheat valve also nothing there

Am still looking for a dye that will not stain  …..  my granddaughter says I can use her bath paints I was thinking a water color paint…..

Will know on Thursday or Friday

lab...@comcast.net

---

From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of bjgr...@verizon.net
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 11:20 AM
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: another waterleak question

 

I never heard the explaination about the first leak story, any info?  Possible leak explaination could be water heater pressure release valve.  If your only getting 1/2 an inch in a week your going to be hard pressed to find it.   I have had slow leaks from poor seals on the water heater connections which is usually the only connections I mess with every year.    Bruce ( Breezy 361 )

[Labones]

Lucky man Cap

 

Terry and Amanda

Marie Clare OC 381

 

lab...@comcast.net

---

From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ca...@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 1:56 PM
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: another waterleak question

 

In a message dated 7/12/2009 1:29:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, max...@cox.net writes:

[Barac, Dan CAR]

Cap,

 

I would strongly advise you to change all through hulls when you haul out next time, especially if your through hulls are the original ones supplied by the factory. I've been told it's like standing rigging - once a stay needs replacing, they all need replacing. Years back I had one through hull break (crack) due to corrosion. At the time all my through hulls were factory originals and the boat was about 7 years old. Lucky the boat did not sink in the pen. Emergency haul out, changed it in the slings, re-launched within an hour. Few weeks later, another one seized up, could not open it. Got really worried, hauled out again, this time for a few days and had them all changed. Later the yard showed me what they removed in a bucket - made me understand just how very close I was to a disaster. If I changed all the through hulls the first time, I would have saved myself the cost of the second haul out, not to mention the risk of sinking the boat.

 

If for any reason you decide to just inspect all other through hulls, make sure a lot of testing force is applied to them when out of the water. If sound, they should easily withstand the weight of a grown up person. Don't let someone just shine a torch on them and say that "they look ok".

 

Good luck.

Dan

---

From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ca...@aol.com

Sent: Monday, 13 July 2009 1:56

To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: another waterleak question

[Jack Vetter]

Is there a way to lubricate a through hull while in the water?  I can’t think of anything.  My head discharge valve works very stiffly and I am not due for a haulout for more than a year.

 

Thanks.

 

Jack

 

Jack Vetter

Tutto Bene

Beneteau First 38s5

Sacramento, CA

916-441-4441

 

[Bill Jarvis]

Jack,

 

For the head through hull put some vegetable oil down the head and pump it a bit then close the through  hull and let it sit there for a few days. It will lube the pump and the T/H to some degree.

 

Bill

 

From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Vetter
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 4:20 PM
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners}

 

Is there a way to lubricate a through hull while in the water?  I can’t think of anything.  My head discharge valve works very stiffly and I am not due for a haulout for more than a year.

[chris walter]

jack  i just use about 2 capefuls of mineral oil,  and flush it.   it works like brand new for about a month.   then i just do it again

[Howell Cooper]

Jack,

There is if you are in warm water.  Plug it from the outside and have someone there to assure the plug does not come out while you loosen the packing gland on the handle.  Then you can grease it from the dry side.

 

Howell

[markd...@hotmail.com]

Oil floats. Fill a squirtbottle with mineral oil, or whatever safe oil you have in a pinch.. Close the throughhull. Have most gullible crewmember snorkel and hover near throughhull. Have them "fill" the throughull exterior cavity (small as it is) with mineral oil, then knock on hull. You open/close throughhull as quickly as you can, knock back. Repeat til it works easily. Zero sinkage risk with this method.

Of course if you have a gravity drain holding tank, make sure the draining is done and the hose "empty" before you start or gullible crewmember will never forgive you.

If you have time to prepare for this rather than improvising a solution while out on vacation, instead of the squirtbottle of mineral oil, get a tube of grease, like lubriplate aa130 used for maxprops, and you can target the ball in the throughhull directly from the outside rather than using wishful bouancy of oil to try to lubricate the ball.

But hazing gullible crew has so few opportunities, why miss one? To effectively "oil" from the outside, you'll end up with a greased piglet of a crewmember as the oil floats up and coats them.

Of course this reminds me of a story a fellow listmember once told me of a family cruise, a daughter, a clogged head, the daughter's fiance and I think it was a longhandled spatula said daughter's fiance was handed to take over the side...

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

---

From: chris walter
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:07:54 -0400
To: <Benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: {Beneteau Owners}