Wind Transducer

[Ben Campbell]

Hi all,

It looks like I will be getting a new mast due to storm damage earlier this year. This will include replacing all the mast-mounted stuff. I plan to switch to LED anchor, steaming, and deck lights. I will also need a new wind transducer.

I’m considering updating my old Raymarine instruments to NMEA-2000 sometime in the intermediate future. Do I understand correctly that the Raymarine wind transducer does not directly connect to the NMEA network, but rather depends on the wind instrument display to interface with whichever network it supports?

If that is correct, then I my next decision is whether to stick with RM or just replace everything with another brand. I don’t have experience with anything but RM, but I gather B&G is more sailing oriented.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

Ben Campbell
09 Beneteau 31 “Dancing Days” aka “Mastless”
Lewisville Lake, TX.

[jkr...@aol.com]

When I replaced all of the Seatalk instruments with NEMA  2000 using a new backbone, the old wind indicator wires will go to an iTc-5 converter which is wired into the backbone so that all of the other instruments can use the info.

Ron S/v Esprit

B331

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[Ben Campbell]

What instrument displays did you have before and after? Do I gather correctly( from an admittedly quick read) that the converter requires at least one i70?

Thanks!

Ben.

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[jkr...@aol.com]

I replaced all of my old (2003) instruments which required installing the backbone wiring as all of the new instruments use a different type of connector than the old ST60 series. The ITC-5 allows you to get the wind information in analog style and use it on the new digital style instruments. It also allows the depth and speed information from your current thru hulls to be used with the new instruments in the same converter.

The converter doesn't require anything by itself. It is a devise to allow some old information to be displayed on the new style instruments.

I "believe" that using this style converter you can use a Raymarine wind transducer into someone else's NEMA network. Not completely sure about this though.

Good luck.

Ron

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[Hal Mueller]

I think at this point you want to get away from analog sensors completely and make everything Seatalk NG/NMEA 2000. I believe the Raymarine MicroTalk Wireless Gateway will work, directly from a wireless windbird to Seatalk NG. Raymarine SKU T70351 includes this gateway (along with a heading sensor, which you might already have for autopilot).

Some background to clarify the somewhat fuzzy talk about several different network specs:

SeaTalkNG is Raymarine's proprietary plug/cable system for NMEA-2000 signals. Most manufacturers have settled on a different connector, but the signals/network work the same. Raymarine A06045 is an adapter, and I've used that to connect non-Raymarine devices (AIS and stereo) directly to my SeaTalkNG bus. (SeaTalkNG/NMEA-2000 is a bus-based system, one long line with t-connectors that you can add/remove devices from, each one talking and listening independently).

The Raymarine pure wireless wind transducer (like the T120, https://ca.binnacle.com/p8489/Raymarine-T120-Wireless-Wind-Transducer/product_info.html) uses Micronet wireless network. There are other Micronet sensors and displays available (looks like the TackTick is compatible). I think this is an uncommon (and probably obsolete) system.

You need an ITC-5 to go from Micronet to to SeaTalkNG. I see those priced at US $275-400. ITC-5 talks directly to analog transducers/sensors. If you don't have any analog sensors, you don't need an ITC-5.

Your speed/depth transducer is probably analog, connected to an ST60 or similar. This is a direct connection, from the display (ST60) to the transducer. The ST60 (which is original Seatalk, not NG) powers the transducer and processes the signal. My boat originally had this setup. When I was in the process of converting, I had to keep the old ST60 alongside my nifty new autopilot display, and add a Seatalk to Seatalk NG converter (about $75). A better way to do it (which I've done now) is to run Seatalk NG all the way to the bow, and replace the analog transducer with a digital one that fits the same hole (I used the Raymarine DST-810). The DST-810 is bus powered and does not need a dedicated display; it just dumps its data onto the NMEA-2000 bus for any device to read it.

And if you're thinking about a DST transducer replacement, look at the 3D imaging sonar options like the Axiom before you commit to a 1-dimensional depth sounder.

Hal Mueller

B323 "Yard Work"

Seattle, WA

[Ben Campbell]

Thanks, that’s very informative response.

It seems like going wireless for the wind transducer primarily a problem that I don’t have, that is, avoiding the need for running a wire through the mast. My understanding is that my insurance intends to cover the cost of running that wire in the new mast :-) But on the other hand, does RM even make a wired digital wind transducer? On a quick search, I find the same transducer sold for both ST60 and i60/i70 displays. I assume that is analog.

I do already have a heading sensor. IIRC, it directly connects to my autopilot, which can do both SeaTalk and SeaTalk NG. It’s currently connected to the former, since everything else is still SeaTalk.

A 3D sonar setup would be intriguing. Is there a 3D sonar transducer that will fit my existing through-hull? 

Our marina is still rebuilding from the storm damage, and we are not sure if there will be a slip for us by the time we complete repairs. If we have to move the boat from our lake, we are considering the possibility moving it to Galveston bay. But we would probably need to be much more careful about depth given our nearly 6 ft draft. 

Thanks!

Ben.

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[Hal Mueller]

I couldn't find a wired digital RM wind sensor...just the analog that talks to the ST60. So now you have to have either a dedicated legacy display + ST/STNG converter, or the $400 ITC-5.

B&G WS 310 might do the job, but...how strange, it's still NMEA 0183 based, with NMEA 2000 converter. https://defender.com/en_us/b-g-ws310-wired-wind-sensor-000-14382-001.

Raymarine's 3D buzzword is RealVision, available on some Axiom displays and maybe on the Element? I haven't kept up with the line since my electronics upgrade in 2019. And I don't know about the through-hull for the 3D, but that seems to be one or two Airmar SKUs that everybody resells under their own branding, so I expect it's a standard size.

[jkr...@aol.com]

All of RayMarine wind machines are analog   and are converted either with the ITC-5 or one of their digital pods that plug into the backbone same as the TC-5. The advantage of the ITC=5 is that you can wire your wind machine, depth sounder and speed transducer to it and they are all converted to digital. Airmar transducers fit the same thru hull fitting ( I already have done it ) but then you still need one of their adapters to fit into the RayMarine system, plus their digital unit is in excess of $ 800.00.

I have been running all Ray NEMA 2000 with the analog wind/speed/depth through the adapter for the last 5 years without any problems.

Ron

S/vEsprit

B331

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.

[John Kukla]

I converted our old Tartan 37 from RM to B&G as the old instruments failed, and plan to do the same with our 2006 B473. Right now I’m experiencing intermittent Data loss from the ST60 Wind instrument, so it is next up for an upgrade. In response to the comment about the wind transducer being NMEA 0183 with a converter to NMEA 2000, I agree that is the case with B&G, and I suspect it will be that way for most manufacturers. What drives this design is the long distance from the top of the mast down to the deck or keel. I forgot the details, but there are certain limitations on the cable length of a NMEA 2000 backbone and drops. So if you ran the NMEA 2000 backbone all the way up the mast, it would probably have to be the end of the Backbone which requires a terminating resister. I don’t think anyone would want that up at the top of the mast. A failure would compromise the entire network. By using a  NMEA 0183 transducer, you can have that long wire run down the mast. The system worked flawlessly on the tartan, I expect it will be the same for our B473. The challenge is when/how to replace the transducer/mast wiring.

[Patrick McKnight]

John,

We have a 2005 B473.  I upgraded the entire electronics from the old Raymarine SeaTalk (mixture of v1/2) instruments by myself.  The old instruments were largely dead and the old ST wiring was faulty in places that made troubleshooting extremely difficult.  The entire hassle was well worth it.  I had a few chats with the RM tech experts and, for those like me who enjoy the work, I highly recommend you read the RM manual for Seatalk networks (see attached).  There are a few easy things to do and, if not done, make the system very unstable.  

Essentials:

1.  Balance the power

2.  Read and record all LENs (loads that each instrument places on the network)

3.  Use a cheap(er) wire to fish the expensive wires through small spaces

4.  Invest in a few tools that will help you immensely

5.  Label EVERYTHING!

Learn about the network.  See this easy introduction.

The B473 is a wonderful boat to work on - particularly with respect to wiring, electronics, and such.  Happy to provide the group with additional details.  

By the way, I have sailed for 50+ years, worked on many boats, and our current boat (Tohubohu, 2005 B473) is just a dream.  Technology changed so much but sailing remains sailing....thankfully.   I just no longer have to fold sails after a quick outing.  So nice!

Cheers,

Patrick

MRES lab

Life's Purposeful Adventure

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[Ben Campbell]

Since you’ve had both, what are your thoughts for Raymarine vs B&G? 

My ancient RM C80 doesn’t believe in sailboats, but I gather the newer software has some sail-related features. I see B&G markets to sailors. I’ve heard complaints about reliability for both brands.Is it worth looking at Garmin for a sailboat?

Thanks!

Ben.

[Ben Campbell]

Thanks! Can you elaborate on Easy Thing #1?

Ben.

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[Patrick McKnight]

Of course!

Each device that you connect to the network (CANbus network for those who care), has a LEN (Load Equivalence Number).  The collection of LENs across your network can be added up to give you a total LEN or total load.  Now, to make things fun, you need to find a location in your network that falls in the middle whereby all instruments on one side have an equal (or equivalent) load (sum total LENs) as the other side.  Once located, that mid-point should be where you power your network with a 12v, fused power source.  The location can often be in the least desirable location but the stability of the network depends upon powering it as a balanced network.

Imagine the following manufactured network with four devices:

Dev 1:  LEN=5

  |

  |  <------- power here

  |

Dev 2:  LEN=2

Dev 3:  LEN=1

Dev 4:  LEN=2

Each device or rather ANYTHING that is plugged into and powered by the network) has a LEN number.  Regardless of the number of devices, the LENs need to be balanced.  So, if you have a device that has LEN=5 and three others have LENs that add up to 5 then the power should be between the one device and the three others.  Make sense?

Cheers,

Patrick

MRES lab

Life's Purposeful Adventure

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[Ben Campbell]

When you say “in the middle”, am I correct to assume that is the “logical” middle, or do you need to consider bus wire run length?

I was under the (likely mistake) impression that some higher load devices (e.g. autopilot, chartplotter) would have their own local power supplies. If true, do these supply power to the network? (I.e, is there a such thing a negative LEN?)

Thanks!

Ben.

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[Patrick McKnight]

Ben,

Great question!  The cables do not have a LENs specifically but you can imagine that the voltage drop from 12v (assuming you are on a 12v system) to the absolute minimum of 9v would require a VERY LONG cable.  The devices are the power consumers that you need to consider - not the cables themselves.

Actisense has a nice page on this issue:

https://actisense.com/news/powering-your-nmea-2000-network/

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Patrick

MRES lab

Life's Purposeful Adventure

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[jkr...@aol.com]

 

When I redid all of the instruments on our 331, I also spent time with the RM tech dept. regarding all of your questions.

1) power does not need to be physically in the middle of the run, but ELECTRICALLY in the middle of the run. ie: one side can be 3 ft and one side 25 ft as long as the loads are nearly equal.

2) they told me cable length only becomes a serious consideration when lengths exceed 50 ft.

3) some devices (autohelm,MFD ) require their own power sources, but they DO NOT power the network. The power that feeds all of your gauges is feed to the backbone of the network,

4} the newer compass is an example of a device that gets its power from the buss, while the computer for the autohelm must be powered separately even though they are inter dependent.

Having gone through the process of a complete redo also, I agree wholeheartedly that time spent on the RM website and messaging with their tech dept. about your questions will make the whole process much less worrisome.

5) by adding multipoint terminal blocks at strategic points (such as the helm) it made adding additional gauges at a later date a very simple operation, even though it added a few dollars to the project.

 

Ron

S/v Esprit 

 
In a message dated 6/23/2023 11:35:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, pem...@gmail.com writes:

 

Ben,

 

Great question!  The cables do not have a LENs specifically but you can imagine that the voltage dropWhen I redid from 12v (assuming you are on a 12v system) to the absolute minimum of 9v would require a VERY LONG cable.  The devices are the power consumers that you need to consider - not the cables themselves.

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[JoeT]

Last year I completed my electronics upgrade project. It started when I finally installed an autopilot. The autopilot would not talk to my old C80, so it got replaced by an Axiom, which led to the transducer upgrade to RealVision. The RealVision install does not fit in the old Airmar hole and requires a haul out to enlarge the hole (and add a second small hole as well). I was moving my boat to a different lake so did the transducer install and bottom job while it was out of the water. I also switched my speed sensor to the Airmar Ultrasonic UST800/850, which does just drop into the old paddlewheel sleeve. The only analog sensor left is the wind instrument connected to the old ST60 display. This does leave me with a mixed Seatalk and NG network, but w/ good planning and load balancing, it's all playing nice together. I would consider adding an ITC-5 and getting rid of the ST60, but I like the analog display, and would have to spend more $$$ for a digital graphical display as a replacement. I also still have the ST60 Tridata even though no sensors are connected to it. It does still display depth/speed/temp that it gets off the bus. To get totally rid of the Seatalk, it would also have to get replaced with a new digital display. So, ditching the ST60s really gains me nothing but an emptier wallet.

As to talk about a wireless wind sensor, personally I would not go that route. I race on a J105 that has TacTic instruments (now owned by Raymarine) with a wireless wind sensor  Most of the time it works ok, but it also does regularly drop out,  and always seems to do so on the downwind leg with the chute up, not when you want to lose wind info. A wired system will always be more reliable than wireless. (goes for wifi vs wired ethernet as well)

JoeT

'06 B343

[Ben Campbell]

Hi JoeT

How much value do you get from the RealVision sonar?

I think what I’ve learned is that replacing the wind instruments won’t be an issue, since both the legacy and newer RM systems use the same transducer. When I upgrade the rest of the system, I can decide whether to keep the ST60 wind display or move to the ITC-5.

As far as the sonar is concerned, I think my best bet is to either keep my ST60 tridata for now but make sure the MFD is RealVision compatible for a future upgrade.

The other wildcard: The mast landed on my RS125 GPS receiver. It’s intact, but knocked out of position on the (bent) stern pulpit. I will be surprised if it still works. I don’t think RM sells an NMEA 183 compatible GPS receiver anymore. This may drive me to replacing the MFD with one with integrated GPS sooner than later.

Thanks!

Ben.

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[John Kukla]

I am very happy with the B&G equipment on the Tartan. Like someone else comments Airmar makes a lot of the actual transducers and such for RM, B&G, Garmin, etc. so you are pretty much buying the same device from whoever. I probably would have bought directly from airmar, but B&G was running a bundled promotion and I bought a speed/depth/temp transducer, wind transducer, and a couple of Triton 2 displays cheaper than I could any other way. I was upgrading from analog to NMEA 2000 so really any brand you install will provide a big improvement in the quality of data. Setting up the NMEA 2000 network was easy, and I had the new B&G equipment talking with my older RM chartplotter. I also upgraded from the old RM autopilot to a B&G NAC 3 autopilot computer and it talked well with  the old chartplotter for routing and such. That was a BIG improvement, I was going to convert from the wheel drive to a direct piston drive but the NAC 3 did such a good job of proportional control the wheel pilot did the job and I kept it. 

John Kukla

On Jun 23, 2023, at 11:20 AM, Patrick McKnight <pem...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Ben Campbell]

Thanks! Do I understand correctly the B&G autopilot is powering a _RayMarine_ wheelpilot?

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[Jon Schultz]

Is there anyway to integrate a TacTic into the RM Axiom?  That’s my issue. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 23, 2023, at 1:10 PM, JoeT <joetomb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Last year I completed my electronics upgrade project. It started when I finally installed an autopilot. The autopilot would not talk to my old C80, so it got replaced by an Axiom, which led to the transducer upgrade to RealVision. The RealVision install does not fit in the old Airmar hole and requires a haul out to enlarge the hole (and add a second small hole as well). I was moving my boat to a different lake so did the transducer install and bottom job while it was out of the water. I also switched my speed sensor to the Airmar Ultrasonic UST800/850, which does just drop into the old paddlewheel sleeve. The only analog sensor left is the wind instrument connected to the old ST60 display. This does leave me with a mixed Seatalk and NG network, but w/ good planning and load balancing, it's all playing nice together. I would consider adding an ITC-5 and getting rid of the ST60, but I like the analog display, and would have to spend more $$$ for a digital graphical display as a replacement. I also still have the ST60 Tridata even though no sensors are connected to it. It does still display depth/speed/temp that it gets off the bus. To get totally rid of the Seatalk, it would also have to get replaced with a new digital display. So, ditching the ST60s really gains me nothing but an emptier wallet.

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[Jon Schultz]

Ben,

I have the Axiom 12 with real vision and it is light years beyond the old RM depth and chart c-series plotters. Although I need to upgrade the autopilot software and wind meter eventually. The autopilot functions as a temp direction hold and wind is a tactic wireless unit. So the data is not currently piped into the MFD but the charts l, radar and depth are a pleasure to use. And the dashboard has several customizations. The deal at the time included the new quantum radar. Not the best pic but you get the idea. A worthwhile investment in my opinion. 

Jon

s/v Ramble On

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 23, 2023, at 1:33 PM, Ben Campbell <b...@nostrum.com> wrote:



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[JoeT]

To be honest Ben, I've gotten minimal benefit from the RealVision, but being an engineer I do geek out on it anyway. I'm not much of a fisherman, but if I was, it probably would prove useful. There are a couple of anomalies on my lake that I'd like to investigate, and the 3-D view might be useful there also. 

If you're upgrading to have Seatalk NG, the Raymarine RS150 GPS looks to be current and has NG. It appears to be slightly larger than the RTS125 but should not be a problem. Also, depending on your chartplotter, it may also have an internal GPS. My Axiom does and it's nice to have redundancy. Last year on an ocean passage, there were at least 4 GPS units on the net, 2 Axioms, radio and AIS units, plus sat phone.

JoeT

'06 B343

[JoeT]

The boat I race on has all TacTic instruments and 2 Axioms, so yes you can integrate them. Just need the wireless receiver to NMEA2k or NG wired. I think that is the TacTic T122.

Joe T.

[Paul Schwab]

I'm late to this discussion.  Have a '99 Beneteau 352 sailing on Lake Michigan.  I just finished upgrading the OEM installed RM instruments and autopilot with current day RM products (EV-100 wheel pilot & i70s display w/wind/depth). The new speed/depth unit is larger than the old RM unit and required drilling out/replacement.  All the work was done during the winter haul and I dropped the mast to facilitate the masthead parts replacement and upgraded anchor/steaming/deck lighting to LED while I was at it.

I went with RM simply because it was already in the boat and had given over 20 years of trouble free service until the autopilot died. An autopilot replacement grew into a full system update.  I already had a Standard Horizon AIS radio networked to a Garmin GPSMAP 546s aboard.  The new RM backbone plugged into the 546 and networked all the devices together.    I'm 45 days into this new setup and I am happy with it so far.  

Paul

S/V WiTCHCRAFT

Bene Oceanis 352, #282

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