Thoughts on sailing a B473 to Patagonia and around Cape Horn

[Glide2277]

Hi all

Just wondering if anyone has specific ideas about whether or not to try to sail through Patagonia on a B473 (2005)...rigged up well with storm sails, proper navigation equipment, water-maker, good crew, tools, spares, and plenty of time to wait for weather windows...
I notice when sailing that she does get knocked around a bit more than heavier boats of the same length, in winds above 30kts even with proper reefing esp. when the winds have blown long enough to allow the waves to mature...breaking waves seem to knock her a bit off the bow as well...not too badly, but still noticeably more than heavier boats...I am planning on and hoping to make that sail but before i get too far along with modifications over the winter i would like to know if anyone can think of any deal breakers in bringing a production grp hull that far south...

thanks all

max

[Kidd, James]

Ballsy, is all I have to say...


Sent from my iPhone

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[Mohammad Bayegan]

Rounding the horn in a 473 !!!!!!

Marengo B 49

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------

From: "Kidd, James" <jk...@kaydon.com>

Date: 11/25/18 12:01 PM (GMT-06:00)

To: benetea...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Thoughts on sailing a B473  to Patagonia and around Cape Horn

Ballsy, is all I have to say...


Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 25, 2018, at 12:15 PM, Glide2277 <glid...@gmail.com<mailto:glid...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi all
Just wondering if anyone has specific ideas about whether or not to try to sail through Patagonia on a B473 (2005)...rigged up well with storm sails, proper navigation equipment, water-maker, good crew, tools, spares, and plenty of time to wait for weather windows...
I notice when sailing that she does get knocked around a bit more than heavier boats of the same length, in winds above 30kts even with proper reefing esp. when the winds have blown long enough to allow the waves to mature...breaking waves seem to knock her a bit off the bow as well...not too badly, but still noticeably more than heavier boats...I am planning on and hoping to make that sail but before i get too far along with modifications over the winter i would like to know if anyone can think of any deal breakers in bringing a production grp hull that far south...
thanks all
max

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[Tom Lucke]

Beneteau Oceanis 423 around the Horn . . . as part of a non-stop solo circumnavigation.

http://www.beneteau.com/en/newsroom-news/korean-sails-oceans-7-months-oceanis-423

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[or or]

Thanks for this excellent link! We have been in a few rude conditions when sailing Zydeco before swallowing the anchor, and I have great faith in the 473, but we have not crossed oceans so my only contribution is to tout the excellent reliability of basic ship systems. 

My first thought is for you to talk to experienced long distance sailors before undertaking any modifications. Unless you have been there, you remain ignorant. Trust folks who have walked the walk and deeply interrogate them about what they regard as necessary kit to survive off shore conditions that turn bad when there is no exit. 

I remember talking with a First 47 owner who got caught in an tropical storm on his way to the Caribbean. He pointed up at trees on Hartge's YY front lawn saying that the seas were that big! They were reefed to a small patch and just kept going. 

Another guy, a delivery skipper, told me about nasty off shore conditions in 2001 going down wind on a 473 delivery with backstays anchored on the transom (as were ours originally … we had hull #20, but anchors were relocated). They were surfing at 15 kts but as the mast pumped the pull on backstays parted the hull/deck joint aft and they were periodically flooded! The stock pump handled it. Probably no worry today, but it might be worth verifying solidity of that part of the boat. We never had a problem, but never surfed 5m waves with 40 kts of breeze. 

Cap Munday 

Raleigh, NC

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Lucke <trl...@gmail.com>
To: beneteau-owners <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Nov 25, 2018 1:51 pm
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Thoughts on sailing a B473 to Patagonia and around Cape Horn

[Maxwell Kennedy]

Wow, Captain

that is great advice and really helpful stories...
I will definitely look into all of that stuff...I was eyeing the plates holding those backstays on just the other day--and thinking that they looked pretty solid--for sure i will check and have someone who knows more than me double-check...really helpful...thanks

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[Steve Keever]

I see what looks like a staysail or a solent rig on Kim’s 423 in the article below which would probably be a required update for a trip around the Horn.  Has anyone created a cutter rig like his on a 423/473?  I have thought about it, but figured the bulking up of the forward deck to handle the load as well as a new mast and rigging cost prohibitive.

 

From: benetea...@googlegroups.com <benetea...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Tom Lucke
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2018 10:51 AM
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Thoughts on sailing a B473 to Patagonia and around Cape Horn

 

Beneteau Oceanis 423 around the Horn . . . as part of a non-stop solo circumnavigation.

http://www.beneteau.com/en/newsroom-news/korean-sails-oceans-7-months-oceanis-423

 

[Lynn Greentree]

We added a Solent to our 361....wanted it for a hank on storm sail 

.Was very easy as the mast was already set up for it and just had to install the top fitting in the pre cut slot......Beneteau advised us to what location to use up forward on the deck.  Had a fitting manufactured locally to use. 

 Might be worth checking with the mast builder and Beneteau and not as expensive as you think.

Lynn Greentree

361 Dolphin Tales

[MagicaTi]

On the web there are .pdf of the original Ben 423 deck chainplate for 393/423.
Easily locally manufactured.

[Maxwell Kennedy]

hi all

I have the same positions (I believe) on my mast...am working with rigger now to figure out whether a solent or a staysail tacked to the spot that Beneteau utilizes makes more sense...if anyone has thoughts on that---my main question seems to be that---there is not a great spot to attach a true Solent because of the location of the anchor chain locker and narrowness of the bow in front, while the foresail location chosen by Beneteau, just aft of the chain locker and mounted to that locker's aftermost bulkhead, according to some, should not be led all the way to the top of the mast where the positions are pre-drilled  for the 'solent' ---so can you attach a stay for a sail from the top of the mast, just below where the headstay comes in and lead it down to the spot just aft of the chain locker (and in front of the forward compartment bulkhead--actually really basically on that sleeping compartment bulkhead...)  what would that kind of sail be called? what kind of power would it give? it seems that it would have the benefit of presenting room for a roller furler (even one that could be disconnected) or be used for a good enough storm jib...

thoughts?

thanks

max

On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 3:13 AM MagicaTi <giovanni...@gmail.com> wrote:

On the web there are .pdf of the original Ben 423 deck chainplate for 393/423.
Easily locally manufactured.

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[or or]

There is a pad on deck and a spot on the mast to fit a solent sail. I have seen two 473's with this rig. 

Cap in North Carolina

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Lynn Greentree' via Beneteau Owners <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
To: beneteau-owners <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Nov 26, 2018 9:07 pm
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Thoughts on sailing a B473 to Patagonia and around Cape Horn

We added a Solent to our 361....wanted it for a hank on storm sail 

.Was very easy as the mast was already set up for it and just had to install the top fitting in the pre cut slot......Beneteau advised us to what location to use up forward on the deck.  Had a fitting manufactured locally to use. 

 Might be worth checking with the mast builder and Beneteau and not as expensive as you think.

Lynn Greentree

361 Dolphin Tales

On Nov 26, 2018, at 3:25 PM, 'Steve Keever' via Beneteau Owners <benetea...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I see what looks like a staysail or a solent rig on Kim’s 423 in the article below which would probably be a required update for a trip around the Horn.  Has anyone created a cutter rig like his on a 423/473?  I have thought about it, but figured the bulking up of the forward deck to handle the load as well as a new mast and rigging cost prohibitive.

 

From: benetea...@googlegroups.com <benetea...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Tom Lucke
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2018 10:51 AM
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Thoughts on sailing a B473 to Patagonia and around Cape Horn

 

Beneteau Oceanis 423 around the Horn . . . as part of a non-stop solo circumnavigation.

http://www.beneteau.com/en/newsroom-news/korean-sails-oceans-7-months-oceanis-423

 

 

On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 12:15 PM Glide2277 <glid...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all

Just wondering if anyone has specific ideas about whether or not to try to sail through Patagonia on a B473 (2005)...rigged up well with storm sails, proper navigation equipment, water-maker, good crew, tools, spares, and plenty of time to wait for weather windows...
I notice when sailing that she does get knocked around a bit more than heavier boats of the same length, in winds above 30kts even with proper reefing esp. when the winds have blown long enough to allow the waves to mature...breaking waves seem to knock her a bit off the bow as well...not too badly, but still noticeably more than heavier boats...I am planning on and hoping to make that sail but before i get too far along with modifications over the winter i would like to know if anyone can think of any deal breakers in bringing a production grp hull that far south...

thanks all

max

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[Steve Keever]

Can you point me to a specific link? My searching is coming up blank.

[or or]

There is a square flat spot just aft of the anchor chain locker designed just for this use. On the 473 it ties into the bulkhead forward of the berth to do an excellent job of spreading out the stress. 
Talk to your Beneteau dealer. Those are the guys I would trust to do the job right. If you have a marginal outfit in your area, sail to Annapolis. The guys at Annapolis Yacht Sales will do the job right. The management may have changed, but I trust the service folks to continue delivering excellent value and quality and don't doubt the management stress on service to continue strong support. 

Cap in Raleigh

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Steve Keever' via Beneteau Owners <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Nov 27, 2018 2:11 pm
Subject: RE: {Beneteau Owners} Thoughts on sailing a B473 to Patagonia and around Cape Horn

Can you point me to a specific link?  My searching is coming up blank.

-----Original Message-----
From: benetea...@googlegroups.com <benetea...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of MagicaTi
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 12:14 AM
To: Beneteau Owners <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: {Beneteau Owners} Thoughts on sailing a B473 to Patagonia and around Cape Horn

On the web there are .pdf of the original Ben 423 deck chainplate for 393/423.
Easily locally manufactured.

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[Sergey Kalashnik]

Earlier this year I crewed on B473 from Panama to Marquesas. Loved the boat. We had the solent rig - see the photo of the lower attachment below. We mostly had lighter trade wind conditions and the boat doesn't really do well in light winds and swell. Staysail helped some...but according to the captain the boat sails best in 30kt+ off wind with double reefed main and staysail. 

FWIW I own a B361 and 473 is a much better built boat.

[Maxwell Kennedy]

Thanks Sergey

Really great information--and helpful picture. I sent to the yard...thanks...

So, i did not see a way to disconnect the solent in that photo? was there an easy way on your vessel to do that? 

if not, was it a pain in the tail to tack? I guess on a long trip like that you do not have to tack much--maybe they dismantle it when sticking around an area?  

did you roll up the genoa each time you came around?

thanks

Max

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[Steve Keever]

Thanks Cap.  I’m on the left coast so will talk to the guys at Signature Yachts in Seattle.

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[Sergey Kalashnik]

The solent attachment was permanent, no disconnect. We mostly jibed on that trip and more often than I expected. Most days when there was more wind we tried going DDW with poled out genoa and would head up at night when the wind died or changed direction...The captain was quite used to rolling up genoa every time, until the furler started sticking and we decided to just jibe it...it wasn't too bad. Might be worse tacking upwind. Most of the trip we had poled out genoa, staysail and main all together, and wished we had a spinnaker or parasail instead! 

[Rick L]

I raced my 473 from Annapolis to Bermuda - boat did well but it tends to pound when falling off waves.

Cape Horn???  I don't think so.  If you do, make sure you stay in the cockpit as the sounds you hear down below as the hull flexes and the cabinetry shifts and the rig bangs will scare the heck out of you.

Love the boat, but there are better and safer for that kind of trip.

[Rick L]

I did rig a solent for the race as a heavy weather jib was required.  I used a hank-on vs roller but I had a crew of 20 somethings that were happy to go forward.  Once you hit 35 kts+ that sail may be too big and you have to go up to pull it down.  In summary, I would suggest a roller if you do it and make sure the rigger feels the mounting location will be OK with the load.  Furled in it may work as a short term storm jib.

On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 12:15:42 PM UTC-5, Glide2277 wrote:

[George Harris]

Have to say i agree with Rick on this one- I've been up and down the atlantic coast numerous times on my 411 and in some sea states the boat sounded and felt like it was coming apart. 

Sent from my iPad

--

[or or]

On our first Zydeco voyage in '01 we came back north from Little Creek, VA, in a tropical storm. We fell off big waves and the huge banging and clanging shook insulation loose from the overhead that littered our forward berth! That litter never occurred again even though we encountered similar conditions during the next 12 years. No leaks, nothing broke and the 473 did OK going forward, but it is a light boat with a flat bottom and it does bang, just like the 411. The hull is flat and fast and does not cleave into the next wave, it whacks it. 
One point discussed on this thread is the idiotic cap rail attachment spacers of dissimilar metals that corrode. Replace them. Remember that although a good boat, this Beneteau is not a very high quality boat like Swan or Hinkley or Halsburg Rassy or Valiant or others that cost a fortune. I would feel safer aboard them in the gnarly conditions of the southern ocean but that is not to say the Bene will fall apart. I am just saying it will need more investments to make it safe for off-shore conditions. Expect to leap around a bunch because it is light. The delivery skipper with backstay problems said it was the most dry and comfy boat he had sailed. I don't have his experience but I can say I never had second thoughts about Zydeco failing on us. 

Cap in NC

[George P]

I've been following this thread and have been hesitant to comment because I just feel we all have different ideas of what our boats and our sailing dreams are and I would never want to influence that in any way.  But,  having had experience with the Bene473, I feel a need to add my personal insights which may different from others.  So....I also have to agree with Rick and Cap. We had a 473 for 5 years and sailed the Caribbean for a full year while living aboard.  It's a great cruising boat and suited our year aboard very well.  I did attach a chainplate for a solent rig with a small hank on. Tacking was OK as long as you don't have a huge 150% genoa on the forestay the sail will pass through easily enough, you may have to take wide tacks to allow for it.  From my experience, the one factor that would make me hesitate going to the southern oceans is the fact that the 473 surfs too easily.  Don't get me wrong surfing is fun but after 30 minutes it's not.  It was almost impossible to slow the boat down and relax during heavy conditions.  I always had to go off the wind and waves when weather got rough.  I dared not turn into it unless I absolutely had to.  The light displacement and flat bottom makes for a very fast downwind hull but not for going to weather in anything over a 25-30 knot sea state .  Just too uncomfortable for us, let alone the pounding the boat takes.  Also, the motion is quick, too quick which again made us very tired and uncomfortable.  We loved the boat and it's many excellent features like it's roominess and wonderful cockpit but when conditions got rough we worked way too much , had to continuously micro manage the boat in order to keep it and ourselves comfy. It was very challenging and we're both fit, healthy and seaworthy.  I remember my wife asking me to sail to the Med and my answer without hesitation was not in this boat.  Others have done it and are happy to but from my experience from having lived many sea conditions aboard I wouldn't.  She's a solid enough boat but just beats you up real quick and the motion is merciless. If you're determined to sail south then I would re in force the hull and grid mold forward of the mast. Sailing to the southern ocean for me would require an expedition type vessel like a Garcia or something along that purpose built design.  Yes, I know, these boats are expensive...when new.  Used purpose built boats for such voyages can be found and many times for much less than a new Bene.  Having said all that the year we spent in the Carribbean with our Bene473 was amazing and she was perfect for it.

Cheers

On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 12:15:42 PM UTC-5, Glide2277 wrote:

[Jeff Taylor]

Has anyone seen any more news on this vessel it left on Saturday out of Annapolis and apparently these guys were rescued early Monday when the mast came down and damaged the rudder.  Has anyone heard any more facts as far as for sales up or down and what kind of winds were they in.

Sent from my iPhone.  

Jeff Taylor

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[Derek Salzmann]

I have a 423 and love the boat, where we have it in the Caribbean. I agree fully with everything George says. It’s fun and responsive but I would not take this boat around Cape Horn if I had a choice.

 

From: benetea...@googlegroups.com <benetea...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of George P
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 6:48 AM
To: Beneteau Owners <benetea...@googlegroups.com>

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[DAVID FLETCHER]

I wonder if the question is the correct one! 

Maybe the question should be, who would sail around the horn? if you would, what boat other than the Queen Mary or larger 

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[or or]

Excellent point, David! I think it's a young persons game because I no longer need to make a point, I just wanna have fun! And, I am not a chick … 

I remember listening to America's Cup skipper Dennis Conner in an Annapolis presentation back in the 90s. After sailing aboard a Volvo racer from Europe to Brazil he described the trip as being horrible and exhausting. He spent a month aboard a light weight bouncy and difficult to handle racing boat, (just like dealing with a 473 in gnarly conditions), and would never repeat the effort. He was in his mid 50s at the time. I suppose a personal level of masochism may justify such suffering but I have no such background or desire, particularly after passing age 40. 

Having done about 40 climbs in Yosemite, road raced motorcycles for a few years at tracks in California, hiked the high Sierras and found many other ways challenging myself, I decided to accept those things that define limits of my personal fun parameter. Our 5 years living aboard Zydeco as we transited the ICW yearly (with occasional offshore jaunts) was the tops. Having dogs added to the joy! 

But today is fun, too, as I inflict our gnarly little new dog on other dog park denizens on a frequent basis. It seems to me that having fun in what ever section of life you occupy is a lovely goal. 

What ever you decide about placing yourself and others in brutal/gnarly//rude oceanic conditions, keep in mind that it should only occur if it is fun for all! 

Cap in NC

[John Van Den Hengel]

And let's be honest, being sailors we continuously challenge ourselves, and grow and learn everytime we face something we haven't encountered in the past.

J

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[Neal C]

I never thought that the boat was comin apart, but I did think the depth and speed transducers might pop out. Steep waves made my teeth hurt and the boat was fine.

[Maxwell Kennedy]

Thanks so much to you all. This has been one of the best threads for me to read.  I would by no means call myself a great sailor. but just so you don't worry too much--I do intend to have fun, and to take a lot of time-------Dennis did not have the luxury of waiting a week in a cove for a weather window...(or a month---and I do not intend to rush) Each time I go out sailing I face a bit of risk, I worry for my guests and the boat, and, frankly, I usually learn a bit more about sailing. I am licensed for sail and steam--and I have skippered from Vancouver to Oregon and California to Panama--and from St. Pete's up to Nova Scotia...and down the upper Mississippi and the Illinois rivers--pretty much always though on wooden boats...I am just learning the Beneteau, and her tiny little keel and flat bottom..I spent about six months in the Med this year sailing her through the Adriatic, E and W. Aegean and back and forth to the Black Sea...

I am not saying by any means that this qualifies me to sail around Patagonia--but that is something I aspire to...and I will take all of your comments and suggestions to heart (and to the boatyard)...

Thanks everyone---

max

On Fri, Nov 30, 2018 at 9:53 PM Neal C <nlin...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I never thought that the boat was comin apart, but I did think the depth and speed transducers might pop out. Steep waves made my teeth hurt and the boat was fine.

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[John Pool]

Mate go and have fun there will always be negativity usually from those that read too much and never go anywhere,I've crossed the Atlantic and Pacific on  a Bene 461 never felt unsafe ,biggest problem was chafing through halyards and sheets 

Make sure you adjust both every couple of days to change the pressure points at the blocks otherwise they will wear through and let go 

Like your attitude ,have fun 

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[DAVID FLETCHER]

John

Out of interest what are your thoughts on how the 461 sails?

In particular does it hobby horse in short waves?

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[syracuse]

For my solent or the TMT when the Wind is more than 35/40 kt.

I have crossed the atlantic from mediterranean sea ti Guadeloupe and back to mediteranean sea in january by the açores.

She is a good boat, even with more than 50 kts. 

[Maxwell Kennedy]

thanks very much.

Installing the inner-forestay this week, near Athens...second fuel tank, genset, water maker, solar arch and a little removable sprit for an asym spin...

we shalll see how that all ends up working...I am knocking on wood. (and replaced some of the thru-hulls, plus a new 40kg Rokna anchor...and ordered some new sails...

thanks everyone

Max