in-mast” furling mainsail system

[oscar hernandez]

I notice that most Ben 411 have the in-mast” furling mainsail system....

 

would any in the group had a bad experience  with the system...<i read somebody in another  group mentioned that the value of a boat to purchase this days is related with having  the furling system or not....some says a boat has  less value if it comes with the in mast system...can some body lead me on this issue...

 

regards

--
Oscar Hernandez Bernalette

Telefonos 58 412 2348007

[Garry Kingshott]

Hi Oscar,

 

No expert on respective value or 411's with in mast or other furling. I have a 411 with slab reefing and it works just fine. I suspect that as the boats age in mast furling systems are also aging and thus prone to failure and ( more expensive) repair.

 

Garry Kingshott

s/v Serenity 1 B411

[Merrill Mant]

Oscar,
Prioer to my purchase of Ambition, a 2000 B411, one of my criteria was that it had to have a traditional mast. As I investigated further, I discovered that the vast majority  of the 411's built (other than those for the charter fleets) were built with in mast furling. From my perspective, I certainly did not want to purchase a boat that when time came for me to sell it, turned out to be a rare boat amongst the other 411's on the market.
As it turned out,. I absolutely love the in mast furling and since I purchased a new mainsail with 3 vertical battens, I have regained some of the sails roach.
If you are really concerned about a furling mast, there is a way to add a track to the furling mast and use it as a traditional mast (with its own mainsail)  thereby having both systems on board. You will notice that the furling slot is not in the center of the mast so there is room to add a tracxk. I think a little overkill but there is one B411 in our yard that did that and they were pleased with the results.
 
Cheers,
Merrill Mant
s/v Ambition B411 #155
www.synergymarine.com  

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Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:52:45 -0400
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} in-mast” furling mainsail system
From: oscarhernand...@gmail.com
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com

[mawe...@rcn.com]

Merrill,

Do you know if your friend's 411 has a 2nd main halyard or does he remove the in-mast sail to raise the traditional main?

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

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From: Merrill Mant
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:56:01 -0400
To: <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: in-mast” furling mainsail sy stem

[mark....@gmail.com]

If you leave the sail unfurled (ie not rolled up in the mast), can't you raise and lower it on the halyard (I assume it would be loose footed). Also assumes no battens.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

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From: Merrill Mant
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:56:01 -0400
To: <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: in-mast” furling mainsail sy stem

[Merrill Mant]

I believe that he only uses one sail at a time. He removes the in mast furling sail and inserts a "filler" to stop the furler from banging around inside the mast. I would expect that he uses two main halyards.
Merrill
 

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To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com

Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: in-mast” furling mainsail system

From: mawe...@rcn.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:29:48 +0000

</html

[Brian Smith]

I attended the East Coast Beneteau Rendezvous last weekend. During
the lecture sessions, they had folks from Z-spars and a sailmaker
stand up. They asked how many boats there had classic mains.
My hand went up with a small minority of the other boats. They made
some joke about getting to us to explain the benefits of in-mast
furling and selling us new masts.
Then they went on to speak for the next 45 minutes on how to solve
problems with furling masts! It was quite funny.

Brian
OC381
HHN Chesapeake

[Rick Donovan]

Then they went on to speak for the next 45 minutes on how to solve  

problems with furling masts!

Exactly!! My opinion of course. and to add to that statement, if the furling mast system is so great, why do we always have this discussion about this time of year?

for those of you that have been on this list for more than a couple of seasons, you know this subject usually comes up around this time of year, early spring. we have been round and round in the past on the good and the bad of in mast furling vs traditional slab reefing. for many the furling sail is the right choice but for anyone that has seen what proper sail shape can do for your boats sailing characteristics and performance, the furling main is just not the best option. there is no argument against the fact that they are convenient, but in very light wind or as soon as the wind picks up to where the sail needs to be flattened or reefed, their performance suffers badly. the questions and comments over the last couple of weeks about weather helm, the boat rounding up, etc are symptoms of poor sail trim. 

there is just no good way to roll the main sail inside of the mast without making compromises to the sail design. just a short list of some of those compromises are the lack of battens on the leech, lighter weight sail cloth than might actually be needed so that the sail fits inside the mast section when rolled, regular maintenance to the furling drum is required and there is often very limited access to that drum, lack of adjustability of the sail shape and reduced leech/sail area, virtually no mast adjustability for tuning purposes. the good news is that you never have to put on or take off a sail cover. in my opinion that is a lot to give up to save 5 minutes at the beginning and end of your sailing day.

 

i read somebody in another  group mentioned that the value of a boat to purchase this days is related with having  the furling system or not

Oscar,

I personally would always choose the traditional main sail, but that is my choice. the reason for that is because that is what I learned to sail with and is what I am most comfortable sailing with. many others are very satisfied with the furling main. so much of boating is a personal choice and this is no different. there is no right or wrong with this choice and I also feel that the resale value of the boat probably is not greatly affected with one or the other, again my opinion. in looking at resale value, for every person that wants the furling main there is someone else that does not. there are no guarantee's that when the day comes to sell your boat, that you will get more or less money from that sale because you have one or the other.  

I would suggest that you buy what YOU want on YOUR boat and not worry to much about what it might cost you down the road. I would rather have something I want now and possibly lose a bit of money later down the road than have something I don't want or like on my new boat for a few seasons just for resale value. it has been my experience that boats should not be looked at as an investment. I have never made a dollar from buying or selling one yet. you may have done better than I have, but I think most sailors are in the losing column when it comes to selling their boat when that day comes. 

hopefully, you are buying this boat with the intention of keeping it for a while. if you happen to be someone that doesn't like a traditional main sail but that is going to help you when the time comes to sell this boat, why suffer using that sail system for several seasons to save a few bucks at resale time. consider the cost between the two styles (if that can be done accurately), but don't make your final decision based on only that.

Rick Donovan

Biddeford, Maine

[mark....@gmail.com]

Oooooh furling main discussion

Can we talk about anchors or props next ?

Only joking, but seriously - its an individual choice based on how you are going to use your boat. No one solution is right for everone.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

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From: Rick Donovan
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 09:44:06 -0400

To: <Benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: in-mast” furling mainsail sy stem

[Rick Donovan]

I have seen this new anchor that is....

just kidding.

Rick Donovan
Biddeford, Maine

[mark....@gmail.com]

No seriously, now you mention it ....

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Donovan <rdono...@maine.rr.com>

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:04:54

To: <Benetea...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: in-mast” furling mainsail sy
stem

[Gordon Johnson]

While sailing in the Caribbean for a year I think I saw a near equal mix of
slab and in mast. In talks with tens of dozens of sailors I have not heard
of significant issues with in mast furling. When sailing on Caribbean 1500
two years ago, only boats with normal sails or in boom furling lost sails (2
- 3 boats).

I think this discussion is analogous to having a genset or not. It has
advantages but also brings along additional maintenance. Furling lines must
be replaced every couple of years and the bearings in the worm drive clean.
You lose some sail area, but gain ease of reefing. I reluctantly took inmast
furling on my 423 in 2006 when we bought it new. My wife campaigned hard
for this set up. I hated it at first, but loved it the first time I was in
a blow. I for one, after sailing thousands of miles in blue water, and on
the Chesapeake bay, would not go back.

I won't win any races, but then again, I would not be sailing a 423 loaded
down to the gills if I was interested in speed only. Having said that, our
boat came in second place, out of about 70 boats in the Carib. 1500 in 2007.


Gordon
Didi Mau
Hampton, va

-----Original Message-----
From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Smith
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 8:34 AM
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: in-mast" furling mainsail system

[Dimitri Liaos]

Oscar,
I don't think there is a price issue regarding the in-mast furling. It is mostly a matter of personal preference and judging your circumstances.
I never had in-mast furling before my 411. Here in Denmark we have a 30 footer with classic slab main and we love it. We are a crew of two plus a child of nine years and it is so easy to take a reef in the small boat even when the wind is rising rapidly. The waves here are not very high even in high winds.
When we decided to buy the 411 in Greece I didn't even consider one without in-mast furling. We are still a crew of two and we are not racing there, we go on vacation. Also the boat will be rented out some weeks a year to make its expenses The mainsail here is much bigger, the winds rise very rapidly and the waves are big. Not exactly the scenario for a husband wife crew to be taking reef after reef. We know the sailing grounds well, I am greek and we have chartered boats there in the past, usually something "sporty" like a Jeanneau Sun Fast 37. Lots of work and worry for the two of us.
So, in my humble opinion, look at your circumstances. Will you be cruising with a crew of 3-4? Do you have a couple of 15 year old sons? Will you go racing? Are you a young and strong skipper? Get a slab reefing mainsail. Is your circumstances like mine? Get in-mast furling
Although sail shape with in-mast furling is not easy to achieve, I would like to say that our system never failed us and if you learn the controls you can still "flatten" it acceptably for what it is. I have kept the topping lift to make sure that the critical boom angle is ok and can be adjusted if needed and we casually maintain the system. No worries.
just my 2c
Dimitri

AngieL OC411 2002

---

From: oscar hernandez <oscarhernand...@gmail.com>
To: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2009 3:52:45 AM

Subject: {Beneteau Owners} in-mast” furling mainsail system

[Gordon Johnson]

Oscar, if you are buying a boat for resell, I would not be concerned about a sail.  Boats depreciate so quickly that this will amount to peanuts in the overall purchase price and resell price of your boat.  And. . .there will be enough buyers who prefer in mast furling that you need not worry about it.   .

 

 

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From: Beneteau-Own...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Beneteau-Own...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dimitri Liaos
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 5:42 PM
To: Beneteau-Own...@googlegroups.com
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: in-mast” furling mainsail system

 

Oscar,

[glenn x]

My comments are directed at in mast furling vs a mast mounted main and may or may not apply specifically to your 411.  When your main is new the in mast furling is a delight, however once it begins to stretch it becomes more and more difficult to get the sail out and furl it back in.  Since there is so little room in the mast, once the sail starts to get a little bagged out it gets harder and harder to work with.  So if you're not going to use the sail too much, the in mast is better.  If you don't mind replacing your main a little more frequently, the in mast is better.  If you are looking to keep expenses down, I've found a mast mounted sail will last longer than an in mast furled sail.  Just my observations. --- On Sun, 6/7/09, oscar hernandez <oscarhernand...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Ca...@aol.com]

Below is excellent advice. We asked North Sails about this before buying Zydeco and they pointed out that with a full main in 10 knots beating to weather you have about 16 knots over the deck. Kick the wind up to 15 or so and you see over 20 knots. Time for a reef! We experienced this on our previous C&C 29 and always waited too long to reef, so we were fighting the helm until verging on loss of control. Then go forward with 25 knots of breeze and associated spray and bouncing, lash yourself to the mast and go through all that stuff (or rig a single line reefing system) then wank around even more as the wind increases.

 

Even better is the ease with which we go to the dock. It takes only a few minutes to furl the main, furl the jib and turn on the Yanmar. We will never have another boat with slab reefing ... Not to say we wouldn't try something with roller boom reefing, but only if it gets the nod from the list!

 

Cap in Edgewater, MD

 

In a message dated 6/8/2009 5:42:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tie...@rocketmail.com writes:

Oscar,
I don't think there is a price issue regarding the in-mast furling. It is mostly a matter of personal preference and judging your circumstances.
I never had in-mast furling before my 411. Here in Denmark we have a 30 footer with classic slab main and we love it. We are a crew of two plus a child of nine years and it is so easy to take a reef in the small boat even when the wind is rising rapidly. The waves here are not very high even in high winds.
When we decided to buy the 411 in Greece I didn't even consider one without in-mast furling. We are still a crew of two and we are not racing there, we go on vacation. Also the boat will be rented out some weeks a year to make its expenses The mainsail here is much bigger, the winds rise very rapidly and the waves are big. Not exactly the scenario for a husband wife crew to be taking reef after reef. We know the sailing grounds well, I am greek and we have chartered boats there in the past, usually something "sporty" like a Jeanneau Sun Fast 37. Lots of work and worry for the two of us.
So, in my humble opinion, look at your circumstances. Will you be cruising with a crew of 3-4? Do you have a couple of 15 year old sons? Will you go racing? Are you a young and strong skipper? Get a slab reefing mainsail. Is your circumstances like mine? Get in-mast furling
Although sail shape with in-mast furling is not easy to achieve, I would like to say that our system never failed us and if you learn the controls you can still "flatten" it acceptably for what it is. I have kept the topping lift to make sure that the critical boom angle is ok and can be adjusted if needed and we casually maintain the system. No worries.
just my 2c
Dimitri

AngieL OC411 2002

 

---

A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!

[gdietz]

Spent some time wrestling with my in-mast furling this weekend. First
problem was sloppy furling by the yard when they installed the sail.
Even so we had a fight.

It became much easier when we eased the halyard tension some. Moves
very easily now. I remember being warned about halyard tension, just
couldn;t remember which way. Apparently fully taut is not good.

Glenn Dietz
The Wooden Eye, 1998 321
Fair Haven, NJ

On Jun 8, 8:59 pm, C...@aol.com wrote:
> Below is excellent advice. We asked North Sails about this before buying  
> Zydeco and they pointed out that with a full main in 10 knots beating to
> weather  you have about 16 knots over the deck. Kick the wind up to 15 or so and
> you see  over 20 knots. Time for a reef! We experienced this on our
> previous C&C 29  and always waited too long to reef, so we were fighting the helm
> until verging  on loss of control. Then go forward with 25 knots of breeze
> and associated spray  and bouncing, lash yourself to the mast and go through
> all that stuff (or rig a  single line reefing system) then wank around even
> more as the wind increases.
>
> Even better is the ease with which we go to the dock. It takes only a few  
> minutes to furl the main, furl the jib and turn on the Yanmar. We will never
>  have another boat with slab reefing ... Not to say we wouldn't try
> something  with roller boom reefing, but only if it gets the nod from the list!
>
> Cap in Edgewater, MD
>
> In a message dated 6/8/2009 5:42:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
>

> **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
> steps!
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585043x1201462775/aol?red...
> JunestepsfooterNO62)

[Palio]

We have the center cockpit version of the 411, a 40cc with in-mast
furling. Same Z-spar mast as the 411, I believe. (though, ours has a
second track in the extrusion for a hanked-on second sail right next
to the furling slot - not sure if the 411 has this?).

We have found that unfurling the sail can be cantankerous, UNLESS we
follow some very simple, but important rules. When all of these rules
are followed, no problem at all, but its easy to forget over the long
winter break, and be faced with problems in the spring. If this
happens, we go back and re-read the "rules" that are posted on the Z-
spars website (http://www.zsparsuk.com/mastfurlhelp.htm), and then,
its a piece of cake and a joy. I have grown to love the in-mast
furling (I'm done with racing) and would not go back to slab reefing
if you paid me. But that's just me; others' mileage may vary.

Cheers,

Lloyd Bray
s/v "Palio"
Oceanis 40cc
Edisto Island, SC

[David Fletcher]

Yesterday I bent on a new vertical battened mainsail on our Oceanis 400. The
only hard part of the total exercise was getting the rope in the foil, the
wind was brisk and I had no option to wait for a calmer day. It is a small
area in there and feeding a new stiff sail in 15 knots is a little tricky!!

At any rate I was more than nervous about the battens rolling up into the
small cavity in the mast. We have four battens and I must say the sail rolls
into the mast far easier than it ever had previously. US Spar redid the
furling drum and the new sail is flatter and rolls into the mast great.
There is no doubt that the money to recondition the furler is worth every
cent.

I think the battens seem to hold the sail in a better position for furling.

Off on the weekend for a 26 mile sail across Lake Ontario, will be
interested to see the difference in performance.

At any rate so far so good. I used Sobstad and I feel that they did know
what they were doing in designing the sail and the price was great.

Fletch
OC 400 # 178
Camp David

-----Original Message-----
From: Benetea...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:Benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Palio
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:51 AM
To: Beneteau Owners
Subject: {Beneteau Owners} Re: in-mast" furling mainsail system